Don't expect a long-term deal between Giants and JPP before free agency. Two sides not close. Giants will have to make do with available funds. Will be somewhat restrictive.
a couple of guys and boom, they're right back where they started in terms of available cap space.
This isn't a good thing, mind you - it'd be better if they were close on contract terms so we'd know JPP is here to stay and they'd have a more manageable cap situation, but it's not dire either.
don't expect a new deal before free agency. Implies they aren't close.
Doesn't free agency start today? Is it really news that the deal isn't going to be done today?
All I get from this tweet is that we shouldn't be expecting a signing in the next few hours. Doesn't mean that we can't see something happen in the next couple of weeks.
I get that a lot here figured he might do a hometown discounts or a 12 million per year deal.
The Chandler Jones (who is 4 months younger than JPP) deal pretty much sets the tone. JPP IMO is "worth" somewhere less than Vernon and Jones but will absolutely demand what they got and expect more than what Calais Campbell was paid the last two year (14 and 15 million).
The market is pretty much set and it is fucking outrageously high.
RE: Leverage is still with the Giants, all they have to do is restructure
a couple of guys and boom, they're right back where they started in terms of available cap space.
This isn't a good thing, mind you - it'd be better if they were close on contract terms so we'd know JPP is here to stay and they'd have a more manageable cap situation, but it's not dire either.
Being able to restructure is really not leverage, it's closer to desperation. Restructuring is not something an NFL teams wants to ever do, it's something they're forced to do to create cap space. Players don't care, just winds up benefiting them.
I looked at Eli's contract, I don't see him being a candidate, best options are the three big ticket FA's signed last year or extending Pugh IMO. But who wants to have to restructure those deals already.
As many predicted, JPP on the FT hamstrings what the Giants can do in FA.
don't expect a new deal before free agency. Implies they aren't close.
Doesn't free agency start today? Is it really news that the deal isn't going to be done today?
All I get from this tweet is that we shouldn't be expecting a signing in the next few hours. Doesn't mean that we can't see something happen in the next couple of weeks.
The significance would be impact to the 2017 tier 1 FA crop, who will likely be gone by the time they could work something out. It won't prevent the Giants from signing from the second tier (then again, they would have been able to do so through the restructures as well).
a couple of guys and boom, they're right back where they started in terms of available cap space.
This isn't a good thing, mind you - it'd be better if they were close on contract terms so we'd know JPP is here to stay and they'd have a more manageable cap situation, but it's not dire either.
Being able to restructure is really not leverage, it's closer to desperation. Restructuring is not something an NFL teams wants to ever do, it's something they're forced to do to create cap space. Players don't care, just winds up benefiting them.
I looked at Eli's contract, I don't see him being a candidate, best options are the three big ticket FA's signed last year or extending Pugh IMO. But who wants to have to restructure those deals already.
As many predicted, JPP on the FT hamstrings what the Giants can do in FA.
I think you're just repeating fanspeak - restructuring is something just about all teams do (save for those so far under the cap they're looking at the floor). It's the frequent restructures of players who won't be viable towards the end of where you're kicking money that are a problem.
That's not an issue with the Giants, who won't be expecting to part with guys like Snacks or Vernon any time soon, or Eli.
The only thing this prevents is longer term cap management, since the Giants might not know for awhile how they're going to address the DE spot in '18.
Do you? He's tagged. Does he have to approve the tag before he can be dealt?
He's not under contract so we don't own his rights. The tag would need to be signed before he could be traded. He can sit out until the eve of the regular season. He would only incur fines for training camp ($30k/day). After July 14, we can no longer sign him to a multi-year contract. We could always rescind the tag at which point he becomes a free agent with no compensation for the Giants.
I would 100% try to trade him at this point. This team is too close to be this hamstrung financially by a guy not named Eli Manning.
This is why franchising him wasn't a no brainer.
Who are the Giants missing out on signing? They just got arguably 1 of the top WRs available. I don't think they were ever in the market to pay 9-13 million for FA OL but I guess who knows.
Move on and use the money to sign two or even three players that could help us.
Totally agree. We played pretty well defensively without him last year anyway. With 17 million extra dollars we could probably resign Hank, pick up Warford, and some second/third tier guys. Use the draft for a T, TE, another DE to rotate with Wynn and Okwara and depth based on bpa the rest of the way
restructuring does not mean pay cut, it means guaranteeing portions of or more of a contract than you as the team initially agreed to (aka you are now required to pay the player more or sooner than you thought they were worth.).
Eli isn't an option, because this is the year his cap hit dips. To create cap room with Eli need to increase the cap hit in future years and it's already 22.2 and 23.2 the final two years, that would hurt when they get there.
The others, maybe are candidates but again it's not in you as the teams best interest.
Fact: JPP is the superior player...he is better the Chandler Jones or Oliver Vernon...people know damn well that JPP will outplay both these 2 next year...just don't get why people expect him to play for less makes no sense...and just don't understand the malice and disrespect for the player...
The Giants should protect themselves with an out after 2-3 years if he can't stay healthy..,
fuck it, trade him to cleveland for joe thomas and sign back hankins.
So then we'll have our LT, albeit one on the wrong side of 30.
We'll also have a gaping hole at one of the most important positions in a 4-3 defense with 2-way DEs becoming harder to find.
Tell us more.
The defense played pretty well without him down the stretch last year. Draft is also pretty deep at DE. If you plug Joe Thomas in there down the stretch last season maybe things would have turned out a bit differently. Our offensive line and lack of depth at corner (Wade filling in when DRC got hurt) is what killed us last year. We didn't lose because JPP got hurt.
restructuring does not mean pay cut, it means guaranteeing portions of or more of a contract than you as the team initially agreed to (aka you are now required to pay the player more or sooner than you thought they were worth.).
Eli isn't an option, because this is the year his cap hit dips. To create cap room with Eli need to increase the cap hit in future years and it's already 22.2 and 23.2 the final two years, that would hurt when they get there.
The others, maybe are candidates but again it's not in you as the teams best interest.
Of course it's math - but it's sliding math - there's always future seasons to push cap into.
It dips to $19M - you can convert a few million of that to guaranteed money, and spread it out, causing relief in this season.
Yes, it is spreading an inevitable cap hit down the road. Thing is, Eli's under contract until 2020, and presumably he'll be the starting QB here until that point. Even if we have to do it once or twice more, the amount of dead cap spread to the end is not all that much. The idea when restructuring in this manner is to align it in a way that you don't have to spend a lot of money while also writing off dead cap space, which results in you losing players you wanted to retain.
You're going to have dead cap - that goes without saying - but in return, you get something from JPP, whether it's a season that allows you to bridge into a newly drafted DE (or one signed in FA next season), or leverage that convinces him to sign a long term deal that's slightly below market.
It's very naive to think signing JPP will be easy. He was getting wacko advice and let things get way 'out of hand'.
Frankly, I don't think his performance warrants the aggravation. Trade him for as much as we can get.
similar to Shockey, albeit not nearly to the same disruptive extent. But it's definitely similar to Cousins. Both teams should lower their asking price. I'm not saying we should trade JPP for a few low round picks, but somebody would offer us something decent in all likelihood.
That JPP wants a long term deal, but it was him that screwed up his situation, now he wants to act as if there is no problem with signing him to an enormous contract when he a good season, but not a dominant season. I am with the Giants on this and would try to get a DE in this draft. If you can add one in this draft then add another in next years draft, then if JPP does not live up to the expectations he has created, you let him walk.
I love JPP but he did not play his hand well when he did get injured, let's not forget, and he is at it again. It does hurt short term, but if the Giants can upgrade the guard position in free agency this season, then add the tackle in the draft, maybe we can get by again. They can also add a tight end to help out. Not ideal, but since when has JPP shown the least concern with the team when his money is concerned. I know he is not alone, but this does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about JPP. Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I feel. If the Giants changed their minds and cut ties with him I would actually understand now, and that is something I never thought I would say.
I feel the same way. I didn't expect this at all. I guess I should have known better. Thought he bled blue on some level.
I generally agree with this but we don't know the situation...the Giants could be lowballing him.
RE: After seeing Chandler Jones contract i'm sure his number went up.
I was glad when we first signed him, and wished him well after his accident. But as others have noted he has handled things poorly. His talent is why the Giants have hung in there trying to make it work, but his actions have to be a concern with the front office in his dealings.
Cleveland being a wildcard can trade for him, but now with a new QB in their trade today seems unlikely, and a fantasy at best. Shame as they are known for more head scratching deals.
restructuring does not mean pay cut, it means guaranteeing portions of or more of a contract than you as the team initially agreed to (aka you are now required to pay the player more or sooner than you thought they were worth.).
Eli isn't an option, because this is the year his cap hit dips. To create cap room with Eli need to increase the cap hit in future years and it's already 22.2 and 23.2 the final two years, that would hurt when they get there.
The others, maybe are candidates but again it's not in you as the teams best interest.
Of course it's math - but it's sliding math - there's always future seasons to push cap into.
It dips to $19M - you can convert a few million of that to guaranteed money, and spread it out, causing relief in this season.
Yes, it is spreading an inevitable cap hit down the road. Thing is, Eli's under contract until 2020, and presumably he'll be the starting QB here until that point. Even if we have to do it once or twice more, the amount of dead cap spread to the end is not all that much. The idea when restructuring in this manner is to align it in a way that you don't have to spend a lot of money while also writing off dead cap space, which results in you losing players you wanted to retain.
You're going to have dead cap - that goes without saying - but in return, you get something from JPP, whether it's a season that allows you to bridge into a newly drafted DE (or one signed in FA next season), or leverage that convinces him to sign a long term deal that's slightly below market.
I'm pretty sure they don't want to be pushing cap hits further down the road, the next few years they will need to have cap room to sign Odell and Pugh. Can't see them wanting to restructure guys this year
Well isn't this just beautiful. We got a 2nd rate, 7 1/2 finger dipshit holding the Giants hostage. Bad enough he's only interested in what he can pocket out of this but he obviously isn't one bit concerned that he's holding the team back from putting the final touches on a roster that might get them to the Super Bowl. A real team first player.
This is a guy who has had 2 good years in a 7 year career. The rest on the time he's been fair to middling or sitting out with a boo-boo. That is not a guy who has earned the kind of contract he's looking for.
I hope Reese smartens up quick and pulls the plug on him. Use the money for 2 or 3 guys who want to PLAY for the Giants. The great Pierre Jason-Paul. Screw him and the horse he rode in on.
People are overreacting to something they don't even understand
Restructuring is not a big deal for Eli. Keep in mind that Eli's base salary is $13M this season. If the Giants really needed say, $10M, they convert that to a bonus spread over the rest of Eli's contract- no extension- just pushing the cap hit to the last 2 seasons.
Eli is essentially the piece that controls the Giants cap- his cap hit is almost 12% of the team's entire payroll.
As for ODB and Pugh, so long as Eli is not extended, there is an almost zero concern about the restructures coming. Remember that the Giants have ODB under contract this season- and can exercise their 5th year option on him for 2018. That means that sometime in 2018, they can give him a mega extension that will not hurt much going forward. Let me illustrate.
Let's say that in 2018, the Giants extend both Pugh and ODB to big deals. Let's just say that Pugh gets 5 years $60M- which in light of today's deals is not that outrageous. The Giants would structure the deal to have a low base salary in year 1 (2018) and a slight increase in year 2 (2019)- then bump up the base salary in 2020.
The same for ODB, except that he would play out 2018 under his 5th year team option, then get the big money deal starting in 2019. Let's say he gets 6 years $100M- assuming his 2017 and 2018 go the way the last several seasons have gone, that is likely to be the going rate. For ODB, the trick will be to have him get almost a minimum base salary in 2019, then bump it up significantly in 2020.
Why bump up both in 2020? Because Eli will almost certainly be off the cap- and that will free up approximately $20M annually. Sure, the Giants will have to add a QB somewhere, but 2020 also happens to be just about the time the cap hit for Vernon begins to fade- as well as Jenkins and Snacks hit fades.
this will all work out,no need to panic.I am glad none of you are the GM of the Giants,negotiations take skill and time,JPP will be playing for NYG this year either on the tag or more likely on a longer term,but that might take more time to work out.In the mean time they are going about buisness,they were probably never going to pay huge contracts out to any of the available FA's anyway.The draft is probably where OL will be addressed.
Well isn't this just beautiful. We got a 2nd rate, 7 1/2 finger dipshit holding the Giants hostage. Bad enough he's only interested in what he can pocket out of this but he obviously isn't one bit concerned that he's holding the team back from putting the final touches on a roster that might get them to the Super Bowl. A real team first player.
Yeah, he really forced the Giants at gunpoint to franchise tag him.
They can technically spend what they want now.
Only before the start of the league year. Once 4PM today hits, all teams have to be under the cap and stay under or face penalties.
Yes, but he's probably not wrong about this, given the sentiment around everyone who covers the team.
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only need to be under the cap by a certain date?
They can technically spend what they want now.
Only before the start of the league year. Once 4PM today hits, all teams have to be under the cap and stay under or face penalties.
Gotcha
They can technically spend what they want now.
Yes they can until the new league year starts today at 4pm.
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In comment 13385449 Jints in Carolina said:
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You'd have to sign him first, wouldn't you?
No, Patriots traded Cassel while on the FT. You can trade players on the FT from what I know.
Yeah, but Cassel signed his tender and was then traded. I don't think you can trade a guy without him signing his tender first.
This isn't a good thing, mind you - it'd be better if they were close on contract terms so we'd know JPP is here to stay and they'd have a more manageable cap situation, but it's not dire either.
Doesn't free agency start today? Is it really news that the deal isn't going to be done today?
All I get from this tweet is that we shouldn't be expecting a signing in the next few hours. Doesn't mean that we can't see something happen in the next couple of weeks.
The Chandler Jones (who is 4 months younger than JPP) deal pretty much sets the tone. JPP IMO is "worth" somewhere less than Vernon and Jones but will absolutely demand what they got and expect more than what Calais Campbell was paid the last two year (14 and 15 million).
The market is pretty much set and it is fucking outrageously high.
This isn't a good thing, mind you - it'd be better if they were close on contract terms so we'd know JPP is here to stay and they'd have a more manageable cap situation, but it's not dire either.
Being able to restructure is really not leverage, it's closer to desperation. Restructuring is not something an NFL teams wants to ever do, it's something they're forced to do to create cap space. Players don't care, just winds up benefiting them.
I looked at Eli's contract, I don't see him being a candidate, best options are the three big ticket FA's signed last year or extending Pugh IMO. But who wants to have to restructure those deals already.
As many predicted, JPP on the FT hamstrings what the Giants can do in FA.
Doesn't free agency start today? Is it really news that the deal isn't going to be done today?
All I get from this tweet is that we shouldn't be expecting a signing in the next few hours. Doesn't mean that we can't see something happen in the next couple of weeks.
The significance would be impact to the 2017 tier 1 FA crop, who will likely be gone by the time they could work something out. It won't prevent the Giants from signing from the second tier (then again, they would have been able to do so through the restructures as well).
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a couple of guys and boom, they're right back where they started in terms of available cap space.
This isn't a good thing, mind you - it'd be better if they were close on contract terms so we'd know JPP is here to stay and they'd have a more manageable cap situation, but it's not dire either.
Being able to restructure is really not leverage, it's closer to desperation. Restructuring is not something an NFL teams wants to ever do, it's something they're forced to do to create cap space. Players don't care, just winds up benefiting them.
I looked at Eli's contract, I don't see him being a candidate, best options are the three big ticket FA's signed last year or extending Pugh IMO. But who wants to have to restructure those deals already.
As many predicted, JPP on the FT hamstrings what the Giants can do in FA.
I think you're just repeating fanspeak - restructuring is something just about all teams do (save for those so far under the cap they're looking at the floor). It's the frequent restructures of players who won't be viable towards the end of where you're kicking money that are a problem.
That's not an issue with the Giants, who won't be expecting to part with guys like Snacks or Vernon any time soon, or Eli.
The only thing this prevents is longer term cap management, since the Giants might not know for awhile how they're going to address the DE spot in '18.
This is why franchising him wasn't a no brainer.
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In comment 13385449 Jints in Carolina said:
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You'd have to sign him first, wouldn't you?
Do you? He's tagged. Does he have to approve the tag before he can be dealt?
He's not under contract so we don't own his rights. The tag would need to be signed before he could be traded. He can sit out until the eve of the regular season. He would only incur fines for training camp ($30k/day). After July 14, we can no longer sign him to a multi-year contract. We could always rescind the tag at which point he becomes a free agent with no compensation for the Giants.
Can we?
Agree and draft a DE. JPP is good but not that good imo
This is why franchising him wasn't a no brainer.
Who are the Giants missing out on signing? They just got arguably 1 of the top WRs available. I don't think they were ever in the market to pay 9-13 million for FA OL but I guess who knows.
Totally agree. We played pretty well defensively without him last year anyway. With 17 million extra dollars we could probably resign Hank, pick up Warford, and some second/third tier guys. Use the draft for a T, TE, another DE to rotate with Wynn and Okwara and depth based on bpa the rest of the way
Eli isn't an option, because this is the year his cap hit dips. To create cap room with Eli need to increase the cap hit in future years and it's already 22.2 and 23.2 the final two years, that would hurt when they get there.
The others, maybe are candidates but again it's not in you as the teams best interest.
Fact: JPP is the superior player...he is better the Chandler Jones or Oliver Vernon...people know damn well that JPP will outplay both these 2 next year...just don't get why people expect him to play for less makes no sense...and just don't understand the malice and disrespect for the player...
The Giants should protect themselves with an out after 2-3 years if he can't stay healthy..,
So then we'll have our LT, albeit one on the wrong side of 30.
We'll also have a gaping hole at one of the most important positions in a 4-3 defense with 2-way DEs becoming harder to find.
Tell us more.
Very likely true. To me that just means it is all the more likely he plays a year on the tag and then leaves to go get paid.
Pay the man.
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fuck it, trade him to cleveland for joe thomas and sign back hankins.
So then we'll have our LT, albeit one on the wrong side of 30.
We'll also have a gaping hole at one of the most important positions in a 4-3 defense with 2-way DEs becoming harder to find.
Tell us more.
The defense played pretty well without him down the stretch last year. Draft is also pretty deep at DE. If you plug Joe Thomas in there down the stretch last season maybe things would have turned out a bit differently. Our offensive line and lack of depth at corner (Wade filling in when DRC got hurt) is what killed us last year. We didn't lose because JPP got hurt.
Eli isn't an option, because this is the year his cap hit dips. To create cap room with Eli need to increase the cap hit in future years and it's already 22.2 and 23.2 the final two years, that would hurt when they get there.
The others, maybe are candidates but again it's not in you as the teams best interest.
Of course it's math - but it's sliding math - there's always future seasons to push cap into.
It dips to $19M - you can convert a few million of that to guaranteed money, and spread it out, causing relief in this season.
Yes, it is spreading an inevitable cap hit down the road. Thing is, Eli's under contract until 2020, and presumably he'll be the starting QB here until that point. Even if we have to do it once or twice more, the amount of dead cap spread to the end is not all that much. The idea when restructuring in this manner is to align it in a way that you don't have to spend a lot of money while also writing off dead cap space, which results in you losing players you wanted to retain.
You're going to have dead cap - that goes without saying - but in return, you get something from JPP, whether it's a season that allows you to bridge into a newly drafted DE (or one signed in FA next season), or leverage that convinces him to sign a long term deal that's slightly below market.
Frankly, I don't think his performance warrants the aggravation. Trade him for as much as we can get.
Agreed.
Where do I sign..Of course, other than Hankins, who else besides Warford is available to ink at this point?
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That JPP wants a long term deal, but it was him that screwed up his situation, now he wants to act as if there is no problem with signing him to an enormous contract when he a good season, but not a dominant season. I am with the Giants on this and would try to get a DE in this draft. If you can add one in this draft then add another in next years draft, then if JPP does not live up to the expectations he has created, you let him walk.
I love JPP but he did not play his hand well when he did get injured, let's not forget, and he is at it again. It does hurt short term, but if the Giants can upgrade the guard position in free agency this season, then add the tackle in the draft, maybe we can get by again. They can also add a tight end to help out. Not ideal, but since when has JPP shown the least concern with the team when his money is concerned. I know he is not alone, but this does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about JPP. Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I feel. If the Giants changed their minds and cut ties with him I would actually understand now, and that is something I never thought I would say.
I feel the same way. I didn't expect this at all. I guess I should have known better. Thought he bled blue on some level.
I generally agree with this but we don't know the situation...the Giants could be lowballing him.
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fuck it, trade him to cleveland for joe thomas and sign back hankins.
Did it it ever occur to that the Browns might not take that trade? Jesus Christ you make it seem like Cleveland offered Thomas for JPP.
Unbelievable the stupidity this time of year.
fucking relax dude...
Cleveland being a wildcard can trade for him, but now with a new QB in their trade today seems unlikely, and a fantasy at best. Shame as they are known for more head scratching deals.
Always a wild ride this time of year.
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restructuring does not mean pay cut, it means guaranteeing portions of or more of a contract than you as the team initially agreed to (aka you are now required to pay the player more or sooner than you thought they were worth.).
Eli isn't an option, because this is the year his cap hit dips. To create cap room with Eli need to increase the cap hit in future years and it's already 22.2 and 23.2 the final two years, that would hurt when they get there.
The others, maybe are candidates but again it's not in you as the teams best interest.
Of course it's math - but it's sliding math - there's always future seasons to push cap into.
It dips to $19M - you can convert a few million of that to guaranteed money, and spread it out, causing relief in this season.
Yes, it is spreading an inevitable cap hit down the road. Thing is, Eli's under contract until 2020, and presumably he'll be the starting QB here until that point. Even if we have to do it once or twice more, the amount of dead cap spread to the end is not all that much. The idea when restructuring in this manner is to align it in a way that you don't have to spend a lot of money while also writing off dead cap space, which results in you losing players you wanted to retain.
You're going to have dead cap - that goes without saying - but in return, you get something from JPP, whether it's a season that allows you to bridge into a newly drafted DE (or one signed in FA next season), or leverage that convinces him to sign a long term deal that's slightly below market.
I'm pretty sure they don't want to be pushing cap hits further down the road, the next few years they will need to have cap room to sign Odell and Pugh. Can't see them wanting to restructure guys this year
This is a guy who has had 2 good years in a 7 year career. The rest on the time he's been fair to middling or sitting out with a boo-boo. That is not a guy who has earned the kind of contract he's looking for.
I hope Reese smartens up quick and pulls the plug on him. Use the money for 2 or 3 guys who want to PLAY for the Giants. The great Pierre Jason-Paul. Screw him and the horse he rode in on.
Eli is essentially the piece that controls the Giants cap- his cap hit is almost 12% of the team's entire payroll.
As for ODB and Pugh, so long as Eli is not extended, there is an almost zero concern about the restructures coming. Remember that the Giants have ODB under contract this season- and can exercise their 5th year option on him for 2018. That means that sometime in 2018, they can give him a mega extension that will not hurt much going forward. Let me illustrate.
Let's say that in 2018, the Giants extend both Pugh and ODB to big deals. Let's just say that Pugh gets 5 years $60M- which in light of today's deals is not that outrageous. The Giants would structure the deal to have a low base salary in year 1 (2018) and a slight increase in year 2 (2019)- then bump up the base salary in 2020.
The same for ODB, except that he would play out 2018 under his 5th year team option, then get the big money deal starting in 2019. Let's say he gets 6 years $100M- assuming his 2017 and 2018 go the way the last several seasons have gone, that is likely to be the going rate. For ODB, the trick will be to have him get almost a minimum base salary in 2019, then bump it up significantly in 2020.
Why bump up both in 2020? Because Eli will almost certainly be off the cap- and that will free up approximately $20M annually. Sure, the Giants will have to add a QB somewhere, but 2020 also happens to be just about the time the cap hit for Vernon begins to fade- as well as Jenkins and Snacks hit fades.
Yeah, he really forced the Giants at gunpoint to franchise tag him.