that none of them were worth the contracts they signed(talking guarantees)?
I wanted Whitworth and would have been ok with Okung, but not for what they signed for..
There are probably second and 3rd tier OL we can sign and possibly plug in who might be better than the initial 'wavers,' imo..seems to prove out that way every year, but we shall see
The prices these OL players are getting are ridiculous and the Giants should not be players in that field.
The prices these OL players are getting are ridiculous and the Giants should not be players in that field.
I would have preferred to sign a solid OG to pair with Pugh to allow(hopefully) Eli to do what he does best, step into the pocket and not hurry his throws
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
I like what they've done so far. Marshall is great value and Ellison isn't expensive for a jack of all trades type player. He'll make some plays for us.
Solidify the other DT spot and hit on an OT in the draft and we'll be fine.
They wouldn't have to pay these big salaries and would be more set going forward.
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
Flowers is only 22, I am still hopeful.
LT 100% has to be improved (even if not fully fixed) to even have a shot next season. If we go into the season with Flowers at LT and there is no improvement, you're basically throwing away one of the final years of Eli's career no matter what else is done throughout the offseason. Simply can't win with play like that from your blindside tackle.
I hope they add a FA OL + 1 in 2nd round this year. Flowers/Richburg/Pugh/Hart all need to play better as well, as they are most likely 4/5 of the 2017 OL. They need to add a starter.
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
I agre Eric, but I truly believe that Hart's better position might be at RG and I'd be ok with that, as long as he beats out the competition. I also believe Jerry will be back to compete and round out the Oline. Biggest ? In my mind is at RT. If we can somehow get ourselves either a FA RT or someone in the draft that is capable of starting, then we might be ok. Of course we're all counting on Flowers improved development on the left side too.
Not suggesting the OL signed so fit exactly that same model of young, healthy, etc. but who knows what someone's worth until they're on the field in your system and you're winning games.
I think Whitworth, Wagner, and Zeitler might be the best to sign, but Whitworth is definitely not in the mold of last years big 3 for the Giants. Wagner and Zeitler may be.
And I could be missing someone too, but the Okungs and Warmacks caliber players - pass.
But even if we had loads of cap room, I would NOT have been thrilled with spending the money on these guys unlike last year when the talent was there, healthy, young and future building blocks..
Pugh, Flowers, Hart, ..... have not shown that they are tackles.
If the Giants do not find a quality OT it could be a long season.
Not suggesting the OL signed so fit exactly that same model of young, healthy, etc. but who knows what someone's worth until they're on the field in your system and you're winning games.
I think Whitworth, Wagner, and Zeitler might be the best to sign, but Whitworth is definitely not in the mold of last years big 3 for the Giants. Wagner and Zeitler may be.
And I could be missing someone too, but the Okungs and Warmacks caliber players - pass.
My 6:43 crossed with your post
I have been very critical of Flowers but I have never once said he will not develop. Personally, I would give Pugh a fair shot at LT and Flowers a shot at LG. I think keeping him on the left side is better than having to switch up his footwork moving to the right side. I don't care when people say that Pugh is a great guard and needs to stay there. This isn't the business of making individuals happy. It is putting the best TEAM on the field. If a Pugh/Flowers combination nets a better team than a Flowers/Pugh combination than it needs to be explored.
I am actually intrigued by Beachum. He would be competition. I am not saying we need to dethrone Flowers from the LT spot but I want him to earn it. I want someone to push him. I want him to feel the pressure that this isn't a right but rather a privilege.
Sure. I expect him to rebound..Hopeful, anyway
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
I agree with you here. Basically my take. Hart has been a positive, no?
The prices these OL players are getting are ridiculous and the Giants should not be players in that field.
Gotta disagree. If they somehow pulled off the trade for Joe Thomas last year, this whole O Line would've been leaps and bounds better. None of us would be nearly as worried about the line going into this coming year as we are now.
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
LOL, at this time last year. You had some posters saying since Collins isn't the answer, the Giants were still in need of big safety help in FA and move Collins to linebacker. No one knows what the next season will bring. The light can go on with Flowers and he has a HOF career at LT. It's up to the FO and coaching staff to make these decisions and live with the results.
Hell, people on BBI wanted to dump O'Hara at one point. Called Pugh a bust after his second season.
I've seen much worse than Flowers. I think you forget some of the guys Kerry Collins played behind in his final year here.
LOL, uninformed? Watch the games! Look at the numbers. Even look at the useless PFF grades. Every single piece of information results in the same conclusion. Not only is Flowers terrible....he actually got worse under Solari.
Slim pickings, eh?
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I'm in the minority here, but I'm still hopeful about Flowers and Hart. I'd draft a lineman or two (and they will). And I'd sign a cheaper veteran FA too, but don't be shocked if Flowers and Hart are our tackles next year. And don't be shocked if they play decently. Can't count on it, but they have talent.
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
LOL, at this time last year. You had some posters saying since Collins isn't the answer, the Giants were still in need of big safety help in FA and move Collins to linebacker. No one knows what the next season will bring. The light can go on with Flowers and he has a HOF career at LT. It's up to the FO and coaching staff to make these decisions and live with the results.
Exactly. Each NFL season is different. It's a year-to-year league. I don't understand the CONSTANT need to bitch about something on this site.
He faded late in the year.
That all said, the quick throws in this offense cover up a lot of sins.
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that Flowers in year 2 of Solari gets this year from me as a fan, before passing uninformed judgement on his play
LOL, uninformed? Watch the games! Look at the numbers. Even look at the useless PFF grades. Every single piece of information results in the same conclusion. Not only is Flowers terrible....he actually got worse under Solari.
Unless you have Game Pass as I do and hence have access to coaches tape, I rather doubt you what I saw in depth..That said, I still feel rather uninformed..
I'm more concerned with the RG and RT. Those guys can be absolutely brutal at times. And we've been programmed to believe that when there's no pressure or a solid run gain results from their blocking - very, very rare - that they're somehow not deserving of as much criticism because they weren't the #9 pick in the draft. That's bullshit to me. They're professionals too and should perform as such. And they don't.
Get me another T or G - someone who can be plugged right in. And I'm very hopeful going into next year.
I'm more concerned with the RG and RT. Those guys can be absolutely brutal at times. And we've been programmed to believe that when there's no pressure or a solid run gain results from their blocking - very, very rare - that they're somehow not deserving of as much criticism because they weren't the #9 pick in the draft. That's bullshit to me. They're professionals too and should perform as such. And they don't.
Get me another T or G - someone who can be plugged right in. And I'm very hopeful going into next year.
Would Beachum(assuming his knee is fine now) be an ok signing with you?
Hell, people on BBI wanted to dump O'Hara at one point. Called Pugh a bust after his second season.
I've seen much worse than Flowers. I think you forget some of the guys Kerry Collins played behind in his final year here.
Eric, I hear you but it's a different situation. The issue with Flowers coming out of college was his technique. He's now had 2 years of NFL coaching and the technique issues are still there (and in many ways worse!). He also regressed last season under Solari. To go into this season simply hoping that he will improve is foolish. This team is clearly trying to go for it all these final few yrs of Eli's career (signing of BM also aligns with that theory). That position HAS to be improved and even if you want to baselessly hope Flowers improves, there has to at least be some serious quality competition brought in in case he remains as incompetent as he was last season. You need a suitable replacement if/when it becomes necessary to replace him.
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In comment 13386453 Eric from BBI said:
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I'm in the minority here, but I'm still hopeful about Flowers and Hart. I'd draft a lineman or two (and they will). And I'd sign a cheaper veteran FA too, but don't be shocked if Flowers and Hart are our tackles next year. And don't be shocked if they play decently. Can't count on it, but they have talent.
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
LOL, at this time last year. You had some posters saying since Collins isn't the answer, the Giants were still in need of big safety help in FA and move Collins to linebacker. No one knows what the next season will bring. The light can go on with Flowers and he has a HOF career at LT. It's up to the FO and coaching staff to make these decisions and live with the results.
Exactly. Each NFL season is different. It's a year-to-year league. I don't understand the CONSTANT need to bitch about something on this site.
I don't understand the CONSTANT need of some to bitch about posters bitching on this site.
I get giving Flowers the benefit of the doubt in 2016 after a rookie year where he was thrown into the fire, somewhat unexpectedly, it made sense, but in year 3 and with 2 solid years of evidence, the Giants need to have a legitimate alternative option in case Flowers doesn't have that light bulb come on.
Hart was a 7th round pick (in the same draft as Flowers - and some might say he's shown more than Flowers), if Hart can simply hold his own and continue to show the versatility he has shown so far that's gravy, but Flowers has to pan out. Missing on a 1st round pick has a negative ripple effect, hitting on a 7th round pick is the opposite, so maybe the cancel each other out.
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In comment 13386468 Big Blue '56 said:
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that Flowers in year 2 of Solari gets this year from me as a fan, before passing uninformed judgement on his play
LOL, uninformed? Watch the games! Look at the numbers. Even look at the useless PFF grades. Every single piece of information results in the same conclusion. Not only is Flowers terrible....he actually got worse under Solari.
Unless you have Game Pass as I do and hence have access to coaches tape, I rather doubt you what I saw in depth..That said, I still feel rather uninformed..
So just to clarify, you think Flowers play was acceptable last year?
walter's Football
larryflower37 : 6:49 pm : link : reply
Kelvin Beachum, OT, Jaguars. Age: 28.
Kelvin Beachum is a talented left tackle who would be rated a bit higher than this if he were healthy. Beachum tore his ACL in 2015 and struggled this past season because he wasn't 100 percent. However, he should provide solid value this spring. He figures to be closer to 100 percent now that he's two years removed from his knee injury. Plus, he's only 28. Beachum could be one of the better signings this offseason
Yes
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In comment 13386484 Mason said:
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In comment 13386453 Eric from BBI said:
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I'm in the minority here, but I'm still hopeful about Flowers and Hart. I'd draft a lineman or two (and they will). And I'd sign a cheaper veteran FA too, but don't be shocked if Flowers and Hart are our tackles next year. And don't be shocked if they play decently. Can't count on it, but they have talent.
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
LOL, at this time last year. You had some posters saying since Collins isn't the answer, the Giants were still in need of big safety help in FA and move Collins to linebacker. No one knows what the next season will bring. The light can go on with Flowers and he has a HOF career at LT. It's up to the FO and coaching staff to make these decisions and live with the results.
Exactly. Each NFL season is different. It's a year-to-year league. I don't understand the CONSTANT need to bitch about something on this site.
I don't understand the CONSTANT need of some to bitch about posters bitching on this site.
Eat shit.
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BBI has a 20 plus year history of crucifying offensive linemen who ended up being good players. This goes back to the mid-1990s... guys like Riesenberg, Diehl, etc.
Hell, people on BBI wanted to dump O'Hara at one point. Called Pugh a bust after his second season.
I've seen much worse than Flowers. I think you forget some of the guys Kerry Collins played behind in his final year here.
Eric, I hear you but it's a different situation. The issue with Flowers coming out of college was his technique. He's now had 2 years of NFL coaching and the technique issues are still there (and in many ways worse!). He also regressed last season under Solari. To go into this season simply hoping that he will improve is foolish. This team is clearly trying to go for it all these final few yrs of Eli's career (signing of BM also aligns with that theory). That position HAS to be improved and even if you want to baselessly hope Flowers improves, there has to at least be some serious quality competition brought in in case he remains as incompetent as he was last season. You need a suitable replacement if/when it becomes necessary to replace him.
This also doesnt account for hart being equally bad and the team doesnt have a starting guard/tackle or any quality depth. Are we expecting nobody to get hurt on top of expecting baseless improvement from a shitty player?
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In comment 13386488 Josh in the City said:
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In comment 13386468 Big Blue '56 said:
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that Flowers in year 2 of Solari gets this year from me as a fan, before passing uninformed judgement on his play
LOL, uninformed? Watch the games! Look at the numbers. Even look at the useless PFF grades. Every single piece of information results in the same conclusion. Not only is Flowers terrible....he actually got worse under Solari.
Unless you have Game Pass as I do and hence have access to coaches tape, I rather doubt you what I saw in depth..That said, I still feel rather uninformed..
So just to clarify, you think Flowers play was acceptable last year?
Not really. But I'm unsure of the line calls, his assignments, the help he was supposed to get but didn't, etc..I'm willing as a fan to see what Solari can do this year with this 22 year-old, who has all the PHYSICAL TOOLS..I still think Solari is one of the best around..
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
It's not the PC thing to say on BBI. But I agree as well. Bringing in some JAGS and draft a few guys is probably the way to go.
Boom. Good stuff.
But no matter what, if Flowers is a bust, the situation is ugly. And the NFL graveyard is filled with talented OL's who didn't have the mental make-up. Flowers may be another.
That said, he's still 22. This is a guy who started in the NFL when he was 20. (Hell, you think I'm an immature asshole now, you should have seen me at 20).
There were actually games last year where Flowers played well. It's those bad games or those 1-2 really bad moments in a game that stand out to all of us.
I expected him to be MUCH better last year. He didn't get better. That's what is alarming.
Dunlap has been hurt a lot (7 and 12 games played last two years)
Had a very good 2014. Huge dude.
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were he to be cut?
Dunlap has been hurt a lot (7 and 12 games played last two years)
Had a very good 2014. Huge dude.
There's hope. An oft injured Okung played all 16 last year..😎
But no matter what, if Flowers is a bust, the situation is ugly. And the NFL graveyard is filled with talented OL's who didn't have the mental make-up. Flowers may be another.
That said, he's still 22. This is a guy who started in the NFL when he was 20. (Hell, you think I'm an immature asshole now, you should have seen me at 20).
There were actually games last year where Flowers played well. It's those bad games or those 1-2 really bad moments in a game that stand out to all of us.
I expected him to be MUCH better last year. He didn't get better. That's what is alarming.
Eric, what you are arguing is correct but I disagree with why. Everything you say is true. But what you are saying is something that would be said on whether to keep a guy on the roster or cut him not hand him the starting LT job. Personally, I hate the age argument. Age doesn't make you a good player. I agree that it shows that he is still young and can develop but that shouldn't guarantee him a starting spot. Obviously he will have one but my whole mentality is he needs to earn a job not be given one because he was a first round pick, he is young, he is big, he is strong, etc. He should play LT because he will help us win games.
Add a FA vet (cheap) and draft an OL in the 2nd. TE/Pass Rusher at # 23.
Lots of talent on this team as is.
Add a FA vet (cheap) and draft an OL in the 2nd. TE/Pass Rusher at # 23.
Lots of talent on this team as is.
The downside is a poor offensive line can derail the whole train. I think you are being very nice here. We run a quick passing offense. Eli has gotten rid of the ball faster than ever before and is still getting pressured at an alarming rate. That cannot be just swept under the rug.
I respect your opinion...but I think you're clearly forgetting Ian Allen...
But no matter what, if Flowers is a bust, the situation is ugly. And the NFL graveyard is filled with talented OL's who didn't have the mental make-up. Flowers may be another.
That said, he's still 22. This is a guy who started in the NFL when he was 20. (Hell, you think I'm an immature asshole now, you should have seen me at 20).
There were actually games last year where Flowers played well. It's those bad games or those 1-2 really bad moments in a game that stand out to all of us.
I expected him to be MUCH better last year. He didn't get better. That's what is alarming.
Eric, could you clarify which "1-2 really bad moments" that Flowers had? Because overall last season, Flowers was responsible for 59 QB Pressures. In his last 13 games, he gave up 54 QB pressures and 10 penalties.
Physically, Flowers is still developing. His body is still changing. Mentally and emotionally, many folks are different people/players as they get older.
Most players who come into the NFL are 23 years old. Flowers is still 22... for many, this would still be their senior year.
I don't use PFF statistics. I find them horribly inaccurate.
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The technique issue is alarming.
But no matter what, if Flowers is a bust, the situation is ugly. And the NFL graveyard is filled with talented OL's who didn't have the mental make-up. Flowers may be another.
That said, he's still 22. This is a guy who started in the NFL when he was 20. (Hell, you think I'm an immature asshole now, you should have seen me at 20).
There were actually games last year where Flowers played well. It's those bad games or those 1-2 really bad moments in a game that stand out to all of us.
I expected him to be MUCH better last year. He didn't get better. That's what is alarming.
Eric, what you are arguing is correct but I disagree with why. Everything you say is true. But what you are saying is something that would be said on whether to keep a guy on the roster or cut him not hand him the starting LT job. Personally, I hate the age argument. Age doesn't make you a good player. I agree that it shows that he is still young and can develop but that shouldn't guarantee him a starting spot. Obviously he will have one but my whole mentality is he needs to earn a job not be given one because he was a first round pick, he is young, he is big, he is strong, etc. He should play LT because he will help us win games.
So what would be your plan for LT?
I said "There were actually games last year where Flowers played well. It's those bad games or those 1-2 really bad moments in a game that stand out to all of us."
So he had games where he did OK. And he had bad games. And he had games where he did OK but 1-2 really bad plays stood out.
I don't use PFF statistics. I find them horribly inaccurate.
You don't have to rely on PFF statistics when they are corroborated by other sources. Look who is #1 on the Giants.
We're #1 - ( New Window )
And also, most of problem fell on Eli's play this season. In essence saying for eli to straighten his stuff out or out sooner than later
And also, most of problem fell on Eli's play this season. In essence saying for eli to straighten his stuff out or out sooner than later
Having no #2 WR (Cruz was useless) and zero threat at TE didn't help the OL either.
Not suggesting the OL signed so fit exactly that same model of young, healthy, etc. but who knows what someone's worth until they're on the field in your system and you're winning games.
I think Whitworth, Wagner, and Zeitler might be the best to sign, but Whitworth is definitely not in the mold of last years big 3 for the Giants. Wagner and Zeitler may be.
And I could be missing someone too, but the Okungs and Warmacks caliber players - pass.
everyone is a lot of people -- but not everyone said the Giants over paid for Jenkins, Snacks, and Vernon last year. I didn't say that -- and there was a number of other posters who didn't as well
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everyone was saying the Giants overpaid for Jenkins, Snacks, and definitely Vernon last year this time.
Not suggesting the OL signed so fit exactly that same model of young, healthy, etc. but who knows what someone's worth until they're on the field in your system and you're winning games.
I think Whitworth, Wagner, and Zeitler might be the best to sign, but Whitworth is definitely not in the mold of last years big 3 for the Giants. Wagner and Zeitler may be.
And I could be missing someone too, but the Okungs and Warmacks caliber players - pass.
everyone is a lot of people -- but not everyone said the Giants over paid for Jenkins, Snacks, and Vernon last year. I didn't say that -- and there was a number of other posters who didn't as well
You're the best
I don't use PFF statistics. I find them horribly inaccurate.
PFF is better frame of reference than you eric. Dont kid yourself or your site members
But I won't hold my breath for that to be the case.
If not replaced/moved, EF has to be, at a minimum, challenged with competition. Right now that option does not exist.
And since you brought him up, he was the last pro-bowl LT (1993) the Giants have had. Since then (23 and counting), it seems we have grown accustomed to expect mediocrity.
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In comment 13386534 Eric from BBI said:
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The technique issue is alarming.
But no matter what, if Flowers is a bust, the situation is ugly. And the NFL graveyard is filled with talented OL's who didn't have the mental make-up. Flowers may be another.
That said, he's still 22. This is a guy who started in the NFL when he was 20. (Hell, you think I'm an immature asshole now, you should have seen me at 20).
There were actually games last year where Flowers played well. It's those bad games or those 1-2 really bad moments in a game that stand out to all of us.
I expected him to be MUCH better last year. He didn't get better. That's what is alarming.
Eric, what you are arguing is correct but I disagree with why. Everything you say is true. But what you are saying is something that would be said on whether to keep a guy on the roster or cut him not hand him the starting LT job. Personally, I hate the age argument. Age doesn't make you a good player. I agree that it shows that he is still young and can develop but that shouldn't guarantee him a starting spot. Obviously he will have one but my whole mentality is he needs to earn a job not be given one because he was a first round pick, he is young, he is big, he is strong, etc. He should play LT because he will help us win games.
So what would be your plan for LT?
I have explained this numerous times. I would give Pugh a legit shot at the position with Flowers at LG. It doesn't mean that is what will happen but as a coach I want the best team on the field. If Pugh at LT and Flowers at LG gives us a better chance to win then fantastic. If Flowers at LT and Pugh at LG gives us the best chance then fantastic. But I would exhaust all options during the offseason, training camp, and preseason, etc. before going into the regular season. Pugh played LT in college. He played LT in the NFL when Flowers missed time and did well. That would be my inhouse solution.
Outside, I was intrigued by Reiff but supposedly he got a ton of money. Okung got a ton of money. I am intrigued by Beachum right now. Let him and Flowers figure out the tackle positions. I would need to do more research on the remaining FAs or players available for trade.
In terms of scheme, I think McAdoo fell on his face this year. I do not recall many chip blocks if any this year. Our tackles were left on an island. You need to understand your players and put them in the best position to succeed bot stick with a system/style of play.
What about having the TEs help? Well, our TEs sucked last year but from my memory, I never really saw our tackles getting help in pass protection from TEs. I remember our TEs one on one with defenders getting beat. That is not smart football.
Now, I do agree that better blocking WRs and TEs are an improvement. So that is a step in the right direction.
I was also pissed that we never brought in another FB last year. Marcel Reece was just sitting out there and we could have had him. He got signed and had a decent rest of the year.
My whole point is simple. Make players earn their roles and put them in the best position to succeed for the team. That was not done last year. And, I don't want to get into this conversation but I will state my point. The one personnel grouping 90% of the time is a borderline fireable offense. I dont care if that is our best formation it loses it effectiveness when that is all a defense has to prepare for. Get creative. Put an extra OL out there. Put Perkins and Jennings out there together. Sign Reece. Things could have been done. Even if you have to take one step back in a personnel grouping that is not your best it could help your best PG take 2 steps forward. It is like a comedian saying his punchline over and over and over and over again. You need ro set up the joke just like plays.
So, long story short, we need a lot of fixes on the O. Hopefully Marshall and Ellison are the first few pieces in that right direction. Hopefully, our OL improves their play and our coaches improve their coaching/prepping/gameplanning/etc.
But I won't hold my breath for that to be the case.
If not replaced/moved, EF has to be, at a minimum, challenged with competition. Right now that option does not exist.
No one will confuse me with a Flowers apologist, but I will wager the apologists will be wringing their hands as the Giants will be forced to decide on his 5th year option. If no option is picked up - deadline May 2018, then he will enter his final year of his contract. Franchises can not afford to discard Top 10 building blocks 4 years later. Currently the 5th year option for OL picked in the top 10 is $13 mil. By the time Flowers 5th year comes around (if it is picked up), the guarantee will be north of $15 mil. Even if Flowers drastically improves (cuts his penalties in half and QB pressures), he would still lead the team in penalties and have improved to 30 QB pressures. You don't guarantee $15 mil for that kind of production.
Hell, people on BBI wanted to dump O'Hara at one point. Called Pugh a bust after his second season.
I've seen much worse than Flowers. I think you forget some of the guys Kerry Collins played behind in his final year here.
Ian Allen anyone??? Poor Kerry!
PFF is dog shit. Always has been.
And also, most of problem fell on Eli's play this season. In essence saying for eli to straighten his stuff out or out sooner than later
Eli isn't going to play better without better OL play.
It's not almost six years ago, when the OL was terrible and he somehow made them being hot garbage so irrelevant that most people still don't even realize/accept that they were such. He's an old player with happy feet (that have been completely earned, by a lot of what he's played behind for years now) that gets the ball out almost too quickly because of how shot his confidence in the line seems to be.
If people, including the Giants, want to make it all about the QB, then I hope they've got their eye on one to draft early because this one isn't going to cover for the Flowers level of play anymore.
And remember Chris Bober, Jeff Hatch, and Jeff Roehl?
Exactly. Add David Diehl to this list. Dude played every position and finally played LT in 2007, and he was far from perfect. Yet I consider Elliott and Diehl 2 of the best OL in Giants history. Great Giants.
Yes. You are correct. In 2009, Diehl went to the pro-bowl. He was never a first team all pro.
Not the dreaded PFF but Pro Football Reference - ( New Window )
And remember Chris Bober, Jeff Hatch, and Jeff Roehl?
Jeff Hatch, the 3rd round overdrafted OT from Penn? Oh yeah. Actually had a convo with him at training camp in Albany. Nice guy. Not an NFL linemen.
No... there was a 3rd round NT that Young and Parcells drafted (Greg Mark) who never even got out of camp.
Also, I'm reading the new book on the '86 Giants now and they are covering the history in the early chapters. Man, the players the Giants passed up to draft guys like Rocky Thompson.
BB56, I got Tucker's autographed pic back in the day when I was a kid. I thought he was GREAT!
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to take pretty boy Frederickson..TF was good and not for injury might have been very good, but he was and would never have been close to the talents of Butkus and Sayers..An egregious draft faux pas imv
BB56, I got Tucker's autographed pic back in the day when I was a kid. I thought he was GREAT!
Great guy, great player
This year is different regarding the Oline - what we are seeing is aged players, older and 2nd contract questionable players receiving pro bowler money. None of these players has good game tape against the NFCE - If the Giants had deep pockets maybe you take a flyer on one of the, but with limited resources and multiple needs, you can't risk poor value.
The Giants had a clear need for a decent Y outside receiver -- Marshall fits the bill and was signed for reasonable money --
The Giants had a clear need for more power blocking in support of the line and the run game - Ellison fits that bill well and was probably paid market value -- but the Giants received value in return.
I give Reese credit for sticking to his guns, prioritizing things well, and getting reasonable bang for his buck.
I can't see paying the kind of money that went out to the Olineman so far -- not at the expense of the defense and the other needs the Giants have.
Fact is - that the 2016 oline basically equaled the 2015 line - with very different results. In my opinion, the support players were a large part of the reason for that - The giants had a fullback in 2015 - and they got better production out of the TEs, RBs and WRs too.
Marshall and Ellison should help with that.
If the same oline returns with a better support staff - it will represent an improvement. Maybe a value signing will appear to help the oline too. Maybe one more year under Solari will be something to build on.
Count me among those who haven't given up on Flowers yet - I hope the kid breaks out --- that will make a difference too and hopefully pick up the rest of the line.
The grass isn't always greener.
Now at the end of 2017 if either player had a great season and Flowers didn't improve, it will have been the wrong move.
But these aren't two guys who I really wanted.
Also, keep in mind, we're under $10 million on the cap now. We can cut/re-structure, but this isn't last year.
As far as the "few bad plays here and there" point, the argument goes the other way as well. There were plenty of times he was beat badly but it didn't impact the play because of the scheme.
The rest of this gang of players got grossly overpaid for their track records of performance on the field.
This still doesn't change the fact that I'm now extremely worried we will not be able to play at a high enough level to maximize our offensive weapons potential. Or keep our QB secure enough that his internal clock won't be severely impacted by constant harassment a the season wears on.
Beachum can help us if we can sign him. He has good tape on his resume and most guys are improved in the second season removed from ACL rehab. We are anorexically thin at OT and he'd certainly improve our depth at one of the most critical positions on the field. He's only 27 years old.
Hey, maybe we'll qualify for the playoffs next year on the back of a tremendous defense again by winning a lot of 17-14 games. But that's about all we'll accomplish. Then next March we'll once again hope that this FO will finally fix the OL, like we've been saying since 2013.
I was spot on last spring saying the OL would hold the team back last year. And, sadly as nothing has been done to improve it (other than praying for continuity and improvement), there is no doubt I foresee the same fate for the 2017 NYG.
This year is different regarding the Oline - what we are seeing is aged players, older and 2nd contract questionable players receiving pro bowler money. None of these players has good game tape against the NFCE - If the Giants had deep pockets maybe you take a flyer on one of the, but with limited resources and multiple needs, you can't risk poor value.
The Giants had a clear need for a decent Y outside receiver -- Marshall fits the bill and was signed for reasonable money --
The Giants had a clear need for more power blocking in support of the line and the run game - Ellison fits that bill well and was probably paid market value -- but the Giants received value in return.
I give Reese credit for sticking to his guns, prioritizing things well, and getting reasonable bang for his buck.
I can't see paying the kind of money that went out to the Olineman so far -- not at the expense of the defense and the other needs the Giants have.
Fact is - that the 2016 oline basically equaled the 2015 line - with very different results. In my opinion, the support players were a large part of the reason for that - The giants had a fullback in 2015 - and they got better production out of the TEs, RBs and WRs too.
Marshall and Ellison should help with that.
If the same oline returns with a better support staff - it will represent an improvement. Maybe a value signing will appear to help the oline too. Maybe one more year under Solari will be something to build on.
Count me among those who haven't given up on Flowers yet - I hope the kid breaks out --- that will make a difference too and hopefully pick up the rest of the line.
A Y player is a TE. An X receiver is like Marshall. A Z is like Beckham.
This year is different regarding the Oline - what we are seeing is aged players, older and 2nd contract questionable players receiving pro bowler money. None of these players has good game tape against the NFCE - If the Giants had deep pockets maybe you take a flyer on one of the, but with limited resources and multiple needs, you can't risk poor value.
The Giants had a clear need for a decent Y outside receiver -- Marshall fits the bill and was signed for reasonable money --
The Giants had a clear need for more power blocking in support of the line and the run game - Ellison fits that bill well and was probably paid market value -- but the Giants received value in return.
I give Reese credit for sticking to his guns, prioritizing things well, and getting reasonable bang for his buck.
I can't see paying the kind of money that went out to the Olineman so far -- not at the expense of the defense and the other needs the Giants have.
Fact is - that the 2016 oline basically equaled the 2015 line - with very different results. In my opinion, the support players were a large part of the reason for that - The giants had a fullback in 2015 - and they got better production out of the TEs, RBs and WRs too.
Marshall and Ellison should help with that.
If the same oline returns with a better support staff - it will represent an improvement. Maybe a value signing will appear to help the oline too. Maybe one more year under Solari will be something to build on.
Count me among those who haven't given up on Flowers yet - I hope the kid breaks out --- that will make a difference too and hopefully pick up the rest of the line.
Good job
A Y player is a TE. An X receiver is like Marshall. A Z is like Beckham.
Thank you for the correction
Link - ( New Window )
Wait to BBI explodes when and if John Jerry and/or Marshall Newhouse are possibly re-signed.
My take, as well.
Giants shown they have no priority to that position and are relying on Flowers as a mainstay there..unless a draft in few years produces a better lt.
Quote:
that Flowers in year 2 of Solari gets this year from me as a fan, before passing uninformed judgement on his play
LOL, uninformed? Watch the games! Look at the numbers. Even look at the useless PFF grades. Every single piece of information results in the same conclusion. Not only is Flowers terrible....he actually got worse under Solari.
I agree, nothing uninformed, time to put up for Flowers!
It doesn't look like he is moving anywhere.
If he doesn't step up this year, a colossal bust.
Quote:
but even so in looking at Jenkins, Snacks, and Vernon last year - their game tape against the entire NFCE was phenomenal. There was definitely evidence that each of those players could be really valuable to the Giants - and then there was their ages and history of production. Paying those players what they received under the circumstances was a good value then -- and proved to be a good value as the season unfolded.
This year is different regarding the Oline - what we are seeing is aged players, older and 2nd contract questionable players receiving pro bowler money. None of these players has good game tape against the NFCE - If the Giants had deep pockets maybe you take a flyer on one of the, but with limited resources and multiple needs, you can't risk poor value.
The Giants had a clear need for a decent Y outside receiver -- Marshall fits the bill and was signed for reasonable money --
The Giants had a clear need for more power blocking in support of the line and the run game - Ellison fits that bill well and was probably paid market value -- but the Giants received value in return.
I give Reese credit for sticking to his guns, prioritizing things well, and getting reasonable bang for his buck.
I can't see paying the kind of money that went out to the Olineman so far -- not at the expense of the defense and the other needs the Giants have.
Fact is - that the 2016 oline basically equaled the 2015 line - with very different results. In my opinion, the support players were a large part of the reason for that - The giants had a fullback in 2015 - and they got better production out of the TEs, RBs and WRs too.
Marshall and Ellison should help with that.
If the same oline returns with a better support staff - it will represent an improvement. Maybe a value signing will appear to help the oline too. Maybe one more year under Solari will be something to build on.
Count me among those who haven't given up on Flowers yet - I hope the kid breaks out --- that will make a difference too and hopefully pick up the rest of the line.
A Y player is a TE. An X receiver is like Marshall. A Z is like Beckham.
Actually a Y player is a slot guy.