We all know that when JPP was Franchised he wasn't happy about it. John Mara made comments last week indicating that he wanted to work out a long term deal with JPP and reduce his cap number. We have heard reports they were close and then other reports that they were not close on a new deal.
Well, as it turns out, they apparently weren't close enough to agree by the start of free agency. The question is, did the Giants ever seriously think they were in the ballpark with the offensive linemen who went off the board today (Whitworth, Okung, etc) and not agreeing with JPP kept them from getting involved.
Or did they know fairly early on in the tampering period that they were not going to be a factor in these OL either way, and the real impact of the JPP extension is the ability to bring back Hankins. Hankins hasn't signed anywhere as of yet, so is that the real domino from a JPP extension?
It's all speculation right now, but the longer JPP goes without an extension, and if Hankins leaves, you could make a case that Franchising JPP and setting up contentious negotiations and hurt the Giants chances to improve the team in 2017 through free agency.
Some said the Giants had all the leverage by tagging him. While I agreed the Giants had to tag him, they had next to no leverage and in fact it could hamstring the team in their efforts to improve the team elsewhere through free agency.
I felt like if JPP were a late round pick or a UDFA or other player who'd never had a pay day and was desperate then maybe it would be true, but JPP has made over $35M in his career solely from football contracts, so maybe he's not as desperate and a year at $17M while 28 years old isn't the worst thing (even if he prefers not to play on the tag).
None of us knows for sure IMO, and some people say the Giants can sign anyone they want and create cap space simply through cuts or restructures, but I don't agree (they can of course do that, but at a price), I absolutely believe JPP has the leverage and the Giants if they had any FA plans beyond Marshall, had to adjust because of a lack of cap space.
So far.
Still day 1 in free agency and the Giants history is after a big FA expenditure the next year they typically don't make a big splash again.
So I think wait and see. My opinion is yes, JPP possibly messed up the Giants FA plans.
And the Marshall contract was structured in a way that meant he had a $4M cap hit this year when the exact same "compensation per year" could've been offered in a form that meant a $3M cap hit this year (with the $1M difference pushed into 2018).
In the past, the Giants have operated this way and it didn't raise eyebrows. Sit out the first round of FA, then fill holes with second tier, lower cost FAs. IMO, that's what they're doing this year, and why they set up the big spending last year, figuring that the combination of available cap by teams to spend, the increase in the cap, and the dearth of quality FAs would result in an inflated market. They happened to have the good fortune of the convergence of cap space, need and quality last season and they executed perfectly.
If JPP screws the Giants, it's with Hankins.
Just because fans see a dire need doesn't mean the front office does too.
Especially when Cruz' replacement was arguably the best available WR and he took less money to sign here.
I guess you can argue that Jeffery was the best WR to find a new home so far but with all his injury history and the price tags being what they are, Marshall looks like a better value to me.
Good point, and honestly an upgrade over Cruz given his injury problems and Marshall's height advantage in the red zone.
The Giants decided to tag him. They are the ones responsible for tying up all their cap space.
If we are able to get Hankins back, that softens the blow
Quite a bit, but it sure would be nice to give our franchise qb a running game, a pocket to step up into consistently, and more than 3 seconds in the pocket before getting blindsided.
If JPP screws the Giants, it's with Hankins.
This. The JPP situation handcuffs the Giants ability to lock down the other DT spot.
The Giants decided to tag him. They are the ones responsible for tying up all their cap space.
I don't hate or blame JPP. I think he's overrated honestly, and mainly due to the fact that he always seems to be hurt. I think JPP probably assumed they wouldn't try all that hard to resign him after seeing how well they did without him at the end of the season from a defensive standpoint. If DRC doesn't get hurt in that Packer game, who knows how far this defense could have carried them.
Dallas was $10 million over the cap, and after restructuring four contracts freed up $19 million.
As of this morning we don't know of any contract that the Giants had restructured.
1)Retain JPP...check
2)Upgrade OT play...
3)Find a WR to complement OBJ...check
4)Retain/replace Hankins...
5)Sign a capable two way TE...check
So we're 3 out of 5 on Day 1.
And stop with the Marshall was a bargain. He's 33 years old, has worn out his welcome with 4 other teams and was mediocre two of the last three seasons. Being a big guy, he fills a need and I applaud the signing but it was no bargain.
1)Retain JPP...check
2)Upgrade OT play...
3)Find a WR to complement OBJ...check
4)Retain/replace Hankins...
5)Sign a capable two way TE...check
So we're 3 out of 5 on Day 1.
And stop with the Marshall was a bargain. He's 33 years old, has worn out his welcome with 4 other teams and was mediocre two of the last three seasons. Being a big guy, he fills a need and I applaud the signing but it was no bargain.
You've seen this market and feel confident declaring that he was no bargain?
While I agree getting Marshall and Ellison will help the offense, re-signing Darkwa, Tendering Tye and Wynn are all underwhelming moves.
There is an old staying of quality over quantity.....I would think our OL could use some quality. Is JPP preventing us from improving our team? Yes a little but it isn't his fault......I do think Reese could have re-signed Hankins and brought in at least 1 OL and let JPP go....especially with the amount of $ already invested in the D Line.
Reese has no fucking clue about how to build a line.
It may very well be a choice between the two. His best hear was his rookie year. 16 starts. He was average and banged up the next 3.
Richberg has missed one game. To me he's the more signable guy. Pugh isn't going to be worth what he most likely gets as a FA this year.
Zero depth and the two best guys FA next year. Reese seems to be generally good every where else in the draft over all but in free agency and the draft they need to rethink it. Pugh has never sniffed a pro bowl and is getting 8 million. He's going to want more. Richberg' sophomore season was good. Last year a step back. Flowers is a pray the light goes on.
This team may be totally fucked if they don't fix the OL and having faith in Reese and his staff when it comes to this part of the roster life folly until proven otherwise. They honestly haven't drafted a great OL since Snee. Not one in over a decade. That's pathetic
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are getting ridiculous. gonna have a situation next year with Pugh and Richburg unless we reup them early
Reese has no fucking clue about how to build a line.
It may very well be a choice between the two. His best hear was his rookie year. 16 starts. He was average and banged up the next 3.
Richberg has missed one game. To me he's the more signable guy. Pugh isn't going to be worth what he most likely gets as a FA this year.
Zero depth and the two best guys FA next year. Reese seems to be generally good every where else in the draft over all but in free agency and the draft they need to rethink it. Pugh has never sniffed a pro bowl and is getting 8 million. He's going to want more. Richberg' sophomore season was good. Last year a step back. Flowers is a pray the light goes on.
This team may be totally fucked if they don't fix the OL and having faith in Reese and his staff when it comes to this part of the roster life folly until proven otherwise. They honestly haven't drafted a great OL since Snee. Not one in over a decade. That's pathetic
Uh oh. Be careful. The beasts here can't handle the truth.
And stop with the Marshall was a bargain. He's 33 years old, has worn out his welcome with 4 other teams and was mediocre two of the last three seasons. Being a big guy, he fills a need and I applaud the signing but it was no bargain.
Not a very good post. When he left Denver (dumpster fire), his head coach followed immediately afterwards accepting a lesser role with another team and his jag off QB was traded away also. That organization scuttled the whole ship. Then with the Bears, they chose a younger similarly skilled WR over him based on cap ramifications. And again, look at that org now...all but in full rebuild mode. Then with the Jets, a rudderless ship, he experiences some success and has his QB's back throughout the offseason. Then the team implodes midseason and the team appears to have quit on the coaches...qb situation in flux. He feels cheated and it was no secret that the lockerroom was a mess. But nothing that Marshall did caused that. That team is fucked from the top down. Do they even know who theiir 1st string QB is going to come into camp as the 1?
To think that Marshall is going to be allowed to cause problems in that locker room is just absurd...the contract protects them from that kinda injury to the team.
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People already irrationally hate him as it is.
The Giants decided to tag him. They are the ones responsible for tying up all their cap space.
I don't hate or blame JPP. I think he's overrated honestly, and mainly due to the fact that he always seems to be hurt. I think JPP probably assumed they wouldn't try all that hard to resign him after seeing how well they did without him at the end of the season from a defensive standpoint. If DRC doesn't get hurt in that Packer game, who knows how far this defense could have carried them.
Well, I admit that the defense played better than I expected without JPP, but don't carry this too far. We did lose two of the five games, including the big one to the Packers.
DRC played great in most of those games without JPP. I remember the regular season closer against the Skins where he was just everywhere making plays, and got the "defensive player of the week" award. But he had to leave the last game, and you're always going to have one of your best players out, which is why you want as many stars as you can get on your team.
On the other hand, Vernon had 8.5 sacks all season, and 7 in the five games 8 through 12. Vernon registered two sacks against the Steelers. In the last five games of the season, without JPP, including the Packers, Vernon had only one half sack.
We all know that you can't double two ends, but you can double one all the time if one is all you've got.
FYI, just looking at Vernon's stats, not too impressive for $55 million or whatever he got. Only one forced fumble and no passes batted down. Throw in JPP's blocked field goal and IMHO he was the better playmaker.
Considering the lack of talent at Edge Rusher on the open market and the kind of money being thrown around. Do you think another team with a major need at Pass Rusher could be willing to sign JPP and give up the two picks? It seems unlikely, but there are playoff teams who could be desperate for a quality pass rusher.
It is interesting that JPP has the non-exclusive franchise tag despite it reportedly not costing more for the exclusive tag.
Another question is given the current market (with a lack of talent, particularly pass rushers) and teams with a ton of cash to spend, what kind of money would/could JPP likely attract?
Other factors to consider is that JPP has said he isn't playing on a one year deal and he and the Giants are reportedly not in the same ball park for a long term contract. It is certain that market will be very happy to pay a lot more than the Giants are for JPP's services.
I completely understand the position of JPP and NYG and both views are quite valid given the circumstances. There is potentially a lot of money at stake for all parties. This situation certainly has the potential to become messy.
How do you see this ending up?
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In comment 13386813 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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People already irrationally hate him as it is.
The Giants decided to tag him. They are the ones responsible for tying up all their cap space.
I don't hate or blame JPP. I think he's overrated honestly, and mainly due to the fact that he always seems to be hurt. I think JPP probably assumed they wouldn't try all that hard to resign him after seeing how well they did without him at the end of the season from a defensive standpoint. If DRC doesn't get hurt in that Packer game, who knows how far this defense could have carried them.
Well, I admit that the defense played better than I expected without JPP, but don't carry this too far. We did lose two of the five games, including the big one to the Packers.
DRC played great in most of those games without JPP. I remember the regular season closer against the Skins where he was just everywhere making plays, and got the "defensive player of the week" award. But he had to leave the last game, and you're always going to have one of your best players out, which is why you want as many stars as you can get on your team.
On the other hand, Vernon had 8.5 sacks all season, and 7 in the five games 8 through 12. Vernon registered two sacks against the Steelers. In the last five games of the season, without JPP, including the Packers, Vernon had only one half sack.
We all know that you can't double two ends, but you can double one all the time if one is all you've got.
FYI, just looking at Vernon's stats, not too impressive for $55 million or whatever he got. Only one forced fumble and no passes batted down. Throw in JPP's blocked field goal and IMHO he was the better playmaker.
Good point on Vernon's production dropping off after JPP was out. I think the jury is still out on Vernon. It was reported that he was basically playing with a broken wrist/hand most of the year, so we will see how he does this season. I am not suggesting that the Giants dump JPP and replace him with an Okwara/Wynn combo. If they let him walk, they would have to draft a DE in round 1 or 2 to protect themselves.
JPP's franchise # represents a huge team wide impact being tied up entirely in one player. Especially when we already have Vernon carrying the contract he is. Are we really going to tie 120-140mil with ~ 85 mil guaranteed up in a position group that was arguable the 3rd best (behind the interior D-line and secondary) on our defense last year?
Maybe it works out, but as I see it we are rolling the dice on our entire offense for on player on what appears to be a still otherwise stacked defense. I really hope I am missing something here
JPP's franchise # represents a huge team wide impact being tied up entirely in one player. Especially when we already have Vernon carrying the contract he is. Are we really going to tie 120-140mil with ~ 85 mil guaranteed up in a position group that was arguable the 3rd best (behind the interior D-line and secondary) on our defense last year?
Maybe it works out, but as I see it we are rolling the dice on our entire offense for on player on what appears to be a still otherwise stacked defense. I really hope I am missing something here
Agree with a lot of this. I feel that a lot of our offensive issues fall on lazy game plans. I'm not s big Sullivan fan, he totally flamed out in his short stint in TB. And who knows what his role even is here with the HC calling the plays. I think Mac is trying to do too much which is one of the reasons they were so predictable and inconsistent with their production. We had the same exact mediocre line the year before and were in the top half of the league in offense.
At this point, I'd rather they let him go, draft another DE in the first two rounds and save a good portion of this 17 million to help resign all of the guys they have to bring back next year. They could use some of it to bring back Hank or maybe a few lower tier guys to plug holes.
And stop with the Marshall was a bargain. He's 33 years old, has worn out his welcome with 4 other teams and was mediocre two of the last three seasons. Being a big guy, he fills a need and I applaud the signing but it was no bargain.
100% agree with you....but it gets worse...when you consider that the Giants signed an inferior player last year...JPP > Vernon...and the people on this board are mad because JPP won't take less...go figure...
Even the best cover guys can only cover for a few seconds.
I wasn't fair criticizing Vernon. I forgot that he was playing with a bad hand.
People don't like JPP, even after Reese went out of his way to call him and Hankins fine young men and positive locker room influences. Is it because JPP was dumb enough to blow up one of his hands? When I was 13 I was dumb enough to have a firecracker explode in my hand. Luckily it was just one of those little Macau crackers, so when I brought my numb hand over to a porch light to look at it, all the fingers were still there.
As the team is currently constructed resource allocation leans towards DE, and secondary and Eli Manning.
The problem is people refuse to accept the face that lffwnxkd line play across the league is terrible. There are like 5 teams with plus offensive lines and 27 of them looking to get better there. None of these guys available are such better upgrades that they would make the Giants noticeably better immediately.
The Giants needed to get better at blocking from their WR corps and TE to take pressure off the offensive line because last year Cruz Beckham and Sheppard were among the smallest and worst blocking WRs in the league. And the running backs need to make more plays, and Eli Needs to play better more consistently.
Of course the OL is part of the problem but again they might be the hardest position in the league to find good ones so the Giants need to explore contingency plans.
The ot free agent class stinks.
And the giants view a 16 game Pugh and healthy richburg as an upgrade. It doesn't mean they aren't looking for ol pieces- but to get frustrated about not spending on the "big name ol" this year- is just wasting your own time and emotions.
The Giants O played well in 2015 with an O-line that was suspect. Upgrade WR, TE and RB, any maybe better play calling can go a long way towards winning a championship.
Yeah, Ellison is exactly like Bennett only smaller, slower, drafted lower and playing running back for his former team. Your hopes and dreams are not reality sonny.
The ot free agent class stinks.
And the giants view a 16 game Pugh and healthy richburg as an upgrade. It doesn't mean they aren't looking for ol pieces- but to get frustrated about not spending on the "big name ol" this year- is just wasting your own time and emotions.
Great post, I've been saying this since before they even franchised JPP. The Giants were never spending the prices these OL were going to command even if they had Cleveland Browns type money because they have Pugh and Richburg coming up and they weren't going to have two guards making ridiculous money like that. They don't structure their roster in that way, never have.
For those that can't understand why the Giants franchised JPP, where else did you want the Giants to spend the money? The average talent that was out there? And then how replace him? Overpay someone that is 50% of him? Brilliant
If JPP hit the market, I'm starting to believe he would have blown OV's contract out of the water based on the stupid contracts that were given out yesterday, he's a pass rusher, and he's actually a good player.
But let the anti-JPP crowd continue to look foolish and let we dont want the facts to get in their way...
For those that can't understand why the Giants franchised JPP, where else did you want the Giants to spend the money? The average talent that was out there? And then how replace him? Overpay someone that is 50% of him? Brilliant
Hankins..I think he's more critical than given credit for. Snacks thinks so. But, even if his comments are teammate-speak, the point is, in tandem, they were one of the best. That said, you're right about the absurd overspending on mostly average to good OL, but a contract with JPP as you know, pretty much assures(fingers crossed) a Hankins return, imo
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For those that can't understand why the Giants franchised JPP, where else did you want the Giants to spend the money? The average talent that was out there? And then how replace him? Overpay someone that is 50% of him? Brilliant
Hankins..I think he's more critical than given credit for. Snacks thinks so. But, even if his comments are teammate-speak, the point is, in tandem, they were one of the best. That said, you're right about the absurd overspending on mostly average to good OL, but a contract with JPP as you know, pretty much assures(fingers crossed) a Hankins return, imo
Good point and as mentioned by others, I'm in the same camp, losing Hankins could be the only fall out and I'm not minimizing that one bit.
But I also believe it won't be because of JPP's number but because Hankins has exceeded the value they deemed appropriate for him. If Hankins is trying to get paid more than Snacks or similar, the Giants won't do it, not only because of money but because they can't pay a lesser player more than a superior player on their own roster.
The Giants still have plenty of cap flexibility this year to get Hankins in at what they probably deem appropriate (my guess is a little under what Fairley just got)
basically the vernon deal. Dont think we can allocate that much to JPP
The ot free agent class stinks.
And the giants view a 16 game Pugh and healthy richburg as an upgrade. It doesn't mean they aren't looking for ol pieces- but to get frustrated about not spending on the "big name ol" this year- is just wasting your own time and emotions.
I think we would all view "a 16 game Pugh" over the Pugh they are about to overpay for in a year or so.