just to keep it from being a disaster (leave alone average) at this point in Eli's career is a freaking DISGRACE!
Amen.
It shouldn't take 5 years to put together a competent OL. We'll likely be trying in year 6 based on what appears like another bottom tiered unit in 2017.
How long should it take?
If you have the magic Fix-Your-OL formula, I'm sure the Giants and at least twenty other teams would love to have it.
How many doubt that even with this OL last year, had we had Marshall as the complement to OBJ, we'd have gone to the NFCC with our D?
I totally believe this..A blocking TE would have been an enormous help to the OL as well, but let's just stick with the Marshall hypothetical for now..
Many don't want to address that because their focus is solely the OL play and nothing else. I'm not guaranteeing they will be better this year, but the additions we made at WR and TE/FB will 100% help since we had neither last year.
Kicking and screaming about the OL is tiresome at this point. The Giants invested in the OL and those guys and the coaches need to figure out a way to make it work. If we kept investing in the OL we might be in the same exact spot we are in now, minus a top defense.
might be worth a shot. The last two can play both T and G.
No to Pasztor. My buddy at work is the biggest Browns fan you will find and when I brought up Pasztor as an option he started laughing immediately. He said he was arguably the worst lineman on the team last year and was directly responsible for some of the huge hits their QB's experienced last year. Particularly the concussions suffered by Kessler.
"It shouldn't take X years". Get a fucking grip. Be mad that we don't have a great OLine until you are blue in the face but you have no idea how it works and you never will (and that goes for me as well).
who can actually play on that list is T.J. Lang and he won't be ready to practice until training camp at the earliest. Ugh. Menelik Watson who I was very high on in the draft sucks bad.
just to keep it from being a disaster (leave alone average) at this point in Eli's career is a freaking DISGRACE!
Amen.
It shouldn't take 5 years to put together a competent OL. We'll likely be trying in year 6 based on what appears like another bottom tiered unit in 2017.
How long should it take?
If you have the magic Fix-Your-OL formula, I'm sure the Giants and at least twenty other teams would love to have it.
Something is not right with how we evaluate the OL. We certainly don't draft them well enough. We have 3 guys we've spent premium draft picks on and none are ever likely Pro Bowl level players. We then foul it up more by bringing in lower tiered FA's like those on Raanan's list. And when we do splurge, like on a Geoff Schwartz, he either can't stay healthy (which isn't a FO fault) or his performance isn't up to par.
There is no other FO I want more in acquiring just about any position on the team than the NYG, but when it comes to OT, C, and OG, there leaves a lot to be desired. Something needs to be reevaluated because we keep chasing the same carrot with absolutely zero results.
"It shouldn't take X years". Get a fucking grip. Be mad that we don't have a great OLine until you are blue in the face but you have no idea how it works and you never will (and that goes for me as well).
Disagree
The_Boss is a superior poster
I'm right about this team at an unheard of 100% clip.
what you hope to achieve by posting the same drivel over and over again? We get it, the Giants didn't do things at the pace you demand and have no idea what it takes to win. Now what?
RE: The Giants always trend confident and patient with their draft picks
So nobody should be surprised that they believe in what they have with Pugh, Richburg, and flowers. They don't jump ship on their own, for the most part. Especially not when Richburg and Pugh have had good seasons under their belt already.
This is true. No one should be surprised. Unfortunately, one could argue this philosophy is largely responsible for their failures in fielding a competent football team more often than not.
How many doubt that even with this OL last year, had we had Marshall as the complement to OBJ, we'd have gone to the NFCC with our D?
I totally believe this..A blocking TE would have been an enormous help to the OL as well, but let's just stick with the Marshall hypothetical for now..
Many don't want to address that because their focus is solely the OL play and nothing else. I'm not guaranteeing they will be better this year, but the additions we made at WR and TE/FB will 100% help since we had neither last year.
Kicking and screaming about the OL is tiresome at this point. The Giants invested in the OL and those guys and the coaches need to figure out a way to make it work. If we kept investing in the OL we might be in the same exact spot we are in now, minus a top defense.
Yup. You get my point. Or an attempt at one..😎
RE: RE: The Giants always trend confident and patient with their draft picks
So nobody should be surprised that they believe in what they have with Pugh, Richburg, and flowers. They don't jump ship on their own, for the most part. Especially not when Richburg and Pugh have had good seasons under their belt already.
This is true. No one should be surprised. Unfortunately, one could argue this philosophy is largely responsible for their failures in fielding a competent football team more often than not.
The Coughlin years are clearly over, so I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in the pre-2016 Giants. We are clearly cutting fat and infusing talent at a much better rate. We will always give high picks time to develop; why pick a kid, literally a kid, to play LT if you aren't even going to give him time to finish growing?
"It shouldn't take X years". Get a fucking grip. Be mad that we don't have a great OLine until you are blue in the face but you have no idea how it works and you never will (and that goes for me as well).
Disagree
The_Boss is a superior poster
I'm right about this team at an unheard of 100% clip.
I agree Boss has been pretty miserable on here the past day or so, but I agree on his concerns regarding the front office and evaluating offensive line talent. I mean we have drafted two first round tackles in the past couple of years and one is a guard now and the other is on his way to becoming a guard as well, and he was a top 10 pick. Nothing against guards, but you typically don't want them to be top 10 selections. That being said, the front office is excellent at evaluating DE, WR, CB, etc so there's a lot of positives there as well. At the end of the day, all you can do is hope they find a couple of good guys in the draft and move on. There's s reason it was mostly bad teams spending ridiculous sums of money on average lineman yesterday (Rams, Browns, Jaguars as a few examples).
If I declared that it shouldn't take five years...
When I see the word luck and Giants offensive line together it makes me angry because once again we are relying on a wing and a prayer after how many years now. Lots of those names would be excellent back ups but they are not exactly who I would want to see in the starting line up. Bring in someone to challenge Flowers or to serve as an insurance policy. Sign an RG also for competition, but don't think these guys are going to obviate the need to draft OL. There looks to be some nice guards in the 2-3 rounds.
RE: If I declared that it shouldn't take five years...
To build a competent O-Line, then I should be prepared to say just how long it should take, or forever hold my peace on the subject.
We'd be well on our way if Richburg, Pugh, and Flowers were much better players than they've displayed thus far. Hitting on just one or 2 mid rounders would have helped instead of being completely worthless.
Just because other OL players become available does not mean they
are better than what we have. Others cuts are over valued on BBI and our own starters undervalued. I think we should draft one of the OL top 4 players at #23 and let them compete.LT, RT, RG are all in play and see what they best line is.
RE: RE: RE: The Giants always trend confident and patient with their draft picks
So nobody should be surprised that they believe in what they have with Pugh, Richburg, and flowers. They don't jump ship on their own, for the most part. Especially not when Richburg and Pugh have had good seasons under their belt already.
This is true. No one should be surprised. Unfortunately, one could argue this philosophy is largely responsible for their failures in fielding a competent football team more often than not.
The Coughlin years are clearly over, so I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in the pre-2016 Giants. We are clearly cutting fat and infusing talent at a much better rate. We will always give high picks time to develop; why pick a kid, literally a kid, to play LT if you aren't even going to give him time to finish growing?
Although we have seen teams like the Patriots and Steelers give up on high draft picks after only a couple of seasons, I'm not ready to give up on Flowers yet. And I always say it takes about three seasons for these players to show what kind of player they will be. My only issue with regard to Flowers is that for the most part, he has been handed the starting spot with no competition and no consequences should he fail. And he has failed miserably. The team should be looking to add another piece via FA (not a high priced piece) or the draft to either compete with him or oust him should he not perform up to standards. There is plenty of time left, but it really wouldn't surprise me at all if they just decided to give him another season unchallenged. That, in my mind, would be a mistake.
As for Pugh and Richburg - they still need to prove themselves. At this point, I would not pay Pugh the amount of money that some of these guards are getting right now. He's had four seasons already. He's just not that good. He can't stay healthy. I said this on another thread but if it were me and I was going to end up splurging on a Guard either way - be it now or on Pugh next year, I'd rather do it now when I know I'm splurging on a good one. I'd look to draft another one as Pughs replacement and let him walk next year. It also makes extending Richburg easier next year. That makes more sense to me and is a better allocation of funds.
Again though, the most likely scenario is that the Giants will sit tight with what they have and will try to overpay for both Pugh and Richburg next year. One will leave, and they will have another hole to fill because there won't be anyone else to step in. That has been the pattern, for the most part. I would love to see this change and I hope it does. Better talent evaluation when it comes to drafting offensive linemen, and not being afraid to cut bait on the mistakes.
but finding quality O-Lineman isn't easy. How many great units are there? I'd answer that question first before the chest beating starts. Look at the Seahawks and Broncos; both have top defenses, weapons on offense, and bad offensive lines. Are their GM's and scouts really that bad at identifying talent or is it a combination of many other factors?
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
but finding quality O-Lineman isn't easy. How many great units are there? I'd answer that question first before the chest beating starts. Look at the Seahawks and Broncos; both have top defenses, weapons on offense, and bad offensive lines. Are their GM's and scouts really that bad at identifying talent or is it a combination of many other factors?
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
Don't you know that there are 31 DOMINATE OLs out there? The Giants are just stoopid and REFUSE TO FIX THE OL!
but finding quality O-Lineman isn't easy. How many great units are there? I'd answer that question first before the chest beating starts. Look at the Seahawks and Broncos; both have top defenses, weapons on offense, and bad offensive lines. Are their GM's and scouts really that bad at identifying talent or is it a combination of many other factors?
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
Don't you know that there are 31 DOMINATE OLs out there? The Giants are just stoopid and REFUSE TO FIX THE OL!
but finding quality O-Lineman isn't easy. How many great units are there? I'd answer that question first before the chest beating starts. Look at the Seahawks and Broncos; both have top defenses, weapons on offense, and bad offensive lines. Are their GM's and scouts really that bad at identifying talent or is it a combination of many other factors?
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
Don't you know that there are 31 DOMINATE OLs out there? The Giants are just stoopid and REFUSE TO FIX THE OL!
ITS BEEN YEARS!
That's WHY we only finished 11-5!
THEY WILL NEVER WIN A SUPER BOWL!!! EVER! MARK MY WORDS!!! I LIKE TO YELL LIKE THIS!!!!!!!!!!
RE: RE: If I declared that it shouldn't take five years...
To build a competent O-Line, then I should be prepared to say just how long it should take, or forever hold my peace on the subject.
We'd be well on our way if Richburg, Pugh, and Flowers were much better players than they've displayed thus far. Hitting on just one or 2 mid rounders would have helped instead of being completely worthless.
The point is that building an offensive line - or a defensive line, or a WR corps, or a football team in general - is not an exact science. How many times have we seen "can't miss" prospects turn out to be busts, while unknown UDFAs go on to have great success? It happens all the time, and pissing and moaning about the Giants not adhering to your imaginary timetable adds nothing to the discussion.
However, this is still America, so feel free to piss and moan all you want.
RE: RE: RE: If I declared that it shouldn't take five years...
To build a competent O-Line, then I should be prepared to say just how long it should take, or forever hold my peace on the subject.
We'd be well on our way if Richburg, Pugh, and Flowers were much better players than they've displayed thus far. Hitting on just one or 2 mid rounders would have helped instead of being completely worthless.
The point is that building an offensive line - or a defensive line, or a WR corps, or a football team in general - is not an exact science. How many times have we seen "can't miss" prospects turn out to be busts, while unknown UDFAs go on to have great success? It happens all the time, and pissing and moaning about the Giants not adhering to your imaginary timetable adds nothing to the discussion.
However, this is still America, so feel free to piss and moan all you want.
There's not much to discuss. The OL has sucked and it appears it will continue to suck in 2017. Hopefully we don't lose too many low scoring games to keep us out of the playoffs.
The Giants OL has been pretty much the same the last 2 years except for injuries. Eli was supposed to get killed with the OL. Two years ago the offense statistically worked but the team sucked. Last year, the offense sucked but the team won 11 games. The defense was upgraded because they had money to spend because they didn't throw any money on mediocre OL who could have been small upgrades. And that's what your're asking them to do this year. Throw away money on journeymen linemen and you won't have cap space for talent. Besides it's still only day 2 and stuff will still happen.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
wanted them to deal with the O Line last year, when they
had more money to spend. I tried to tell people they wouldn't have much to spend after the JPP tag, and also he wouldn't be signed at the start of the new season yesterday.
Looks like Kevin Zeitler hit the Osmele windfall this year,
no surprise there.
The Giants OL has been pretty much the same the last 2 years except for injuries. Eli was supposed to get killed with the OL. Two years ago the offense statistically worked but the team sucked. Last year, the offense sucked but the team won 11 games. The defense was upgraded because they had money to spend because they didn't throw any money on mediocre OL who could have been small upgrades. And that's what your're asking them to do this year. Throw away money on journeymen linemen and you won't have cap space for talent. Besides it's still only day 2 and stuff will still happen.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
The Giants OL has been pretty much the same the last 2 years except for injuries. Eli was supposed to get killed with the OL. Two years ago the offense statistically worked but the team sucked. Last year, the offense sucked but the team won 11 games. The defense was upgraded because they had money to spend because they didn't throw any money on mediocre OL who could have been small upgrades. And that's what your're asking them to do this year. Throw away money on journeymen linemen and you won't have cap space for talent. Besides it's still only day 2 and stuff will still happen.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
The Giants OL has been pretty much the same the last 2 years except for injuries. Eli was supposed to get killed with the OL. Two years ago the offense statistically worked but the team sucked. Last year, the offense sucked but the team won 11 games. The defense was upgraded because they had money to spend because they didn't throw any money on mediocre OL who could have been small upgrades. And that's what your're asking them to do this year. Throw away money on journeymen linemen and you won't have cap space for talent. Besides it's still only day 2 and stuff will still happen.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
And before any of you decide to unnecessarily try to shit on this post, Bob Papa said the exact same thing in his interview with Dottino in the latest episode of his Papa Cast.
and coach up what they have, and plug holes with mid tier free agents. As much as I would love for them to get a stud lineman in the first or second round, OL seems to be a blind spot for this front office, much like LB is. I don't want them to over spend on money or picks because their track record evaluating talent on the OL is not stellar.
Get some raw, inexpensive clay and try to coach it up. We run a west coast offense so pass protection should be a little easier with short drops and quick releases. Focus on guys who are solid run blockers and leave it to the coaching staff to improve technique and then scheme with TE and RB chips to supplement.
This is a big year for the OL coaching staff. This line underperformed last year, and at some points looked like they had had little to no coaching at all. I don't expect Flowers to turn into an All Pro next year, but I sure would like to see less instances of him running backwards on his heels with his hands at his waist.
How much do you see Lang getting? Is there any chance the Giants go after him? If you're going to leave Flowers at LT, why not try to strengthen the rest of the line?
How much do you see Lang getting? Is there any chance the Giants go after him? If you're going to leave Flowers at LT, why not try to strengthen the rest of the line?
.
No, too pricey. He will get at least 8 mill. per.
Leary got about 9 mill. per.
The Giants OL has been pretty much the same the last 2 years except for injuries. Eli was supposed to get killed with the OL. Two years ago the offense statistically worked but the team sucked. Last year, the offense sucked but the team won 11 games. The defense was upgraded because they had money to spend because they didn't throw any money on mediocre OL who could have been small upgrades. And that's what your're asking them to do this year. Throw away money on journeymen linemen and you won't have cap space for talent. Besides it's still only day 2 and stuff will still happen.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
And before any of you decide to unnecessarily try to shit on this post, Bob Papa said the exact same thing in his interview with Dottino in the latest episode of his Papa Cast.
Great post. Hopeful for one OL for the right side.
How much do you see Lang getting? Is there any chance the Giants go after him? If you're going to leave Flowers at LT, why not try to strengthen the rest of the line?
.
No, too pricey. He will get at least 8 mill. per.
Leary got about 9 mill. per.
No way to make that work? Would you rather have Hankins or Lang? Is Lang worth it?
"It shouldn't take X years". Get a fucking grip. Be mad that we don't have a great OLine until you are blue in the face but you have no idea how it works and you never will (and that goes for me as well).
If you have no idea how it works how do you know he doesnt know?
of Flowers having a great year and playing well in the NFC champ game at home, and holding up a sign that says "this was for ODB & "The_Boss" as he walks off the field.
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year. [/quote]
The stats don't back this up so it doesn't matter that Bob Pappas said it. Two out of three of Eli's best games this year came after the season-ruining hit. And while yes, Eli had a bad then mediocre game in week 4 and 5, he also had a relatively good stretch of football from week six to week 11 that was just shy of his "hot" start to begin the season.
of Flowers having a great year and playing well in the NFC champ game at home, and holding up a sign that says "this was for ODB & "The_Boss" as he walks off the field.
Hey, I'd love for that to happen. Sadly tho it's about as likely as my dream of making Kate Upton's face look like it was hit by a lemon merengue pie after a night of banging.
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
The stats don't back this up so it doesn't matter that Bob Pappas said it. Two out of three of Eli's best games this year came after the season-ruining hit. And while yes, Eli had a bad then mediocre game in week 4 and 5, he also had a relatively good stretch of football from week six to week 11 that was just shy of his "hot" start to begin the season. [/quote]
Come on. It doesn't take the trained eye of a QB coach to see Eli's internal clock was way off, he was feeling pressure-both real and imaginary, his footwork/mechanics suffered, and was often inaccurate. Seemingly most of his deep sideline throws were way off target. He hit a lot fewer than he had in the past. Both Papa and Dottino concurred, stats be damned.
Saints Sign G Larry Warford To Four-Year, $34M Deal
Quote:
just to keep it from being a disaster (leave alone average) at this point in Eli's career is a freaking DISGRACE!
Amen.
It shouldn't take 5 years to put together a competent OL. We'll likely be trying in year 6 based on what appears like another bottom tiered unit in 2017.
How long should it take?
If you have the magic Fix-Your-OL formula, I'm sure the Giants and at least twenty other teams would love to have it.
I totally believe this..A blocking TE would have been an enormous help to the OL as well, but let's just stick with the Marshall hypothetical for now..
Many don't want to address that because their focus is solely the OL play and nothing else. I'm not guaranteeing they will be better this year, but the additions we made at WR and TE/FB will 100% help since we had neither last year.
Kicking and screaming about the OL is tiresome at this point. The Giants invested in the OL and those guys and the coaches need to figure out a way to make it work. If we kept investing in the OL we might be in the same exact spot we are in now, minus a top defense.
No to Pasztor. My buddy at work is the biggest Browns fan you will find and when I brought up Pasztor as an option he started laughing immediately. He said he was arguably the worst lineman on the team last year and was directly responsible for some of the huge hits their QB's experienced last year. Particularly the concussions suffered by Kessler.
While he is an all pro center can he play guard ?
Or should he play center and Richburg play guard ?
I believe that he is the best offensive lineman left.
He can be a leader of the line.
I wonder if he would follow Marshall and prefer to stay in New York / New Jersey?
The draft will probably yield several OL prospects in the first 4 rounds.
NFL Network said we had 8 Million left. That doesn't include cutting Will Johnson and hopefully we restructure Harris' contract.
Quote:
In comment 13387132 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
just to keep it from being a disaster (leave alone average) at this point in Eli's career is a freaking DISGRACE!
Amen.
It shouldn't take 5 years to put together a competent OL. We'll likely be trying in year 6 based on what appears like another bottom tiered unit in 2017.
How long should it take?
If you have the magic Fix-Your-OL formula, I'm sure the Giants and at least twenty other teams would love to have it.
Something is not right with how we evaluate the OL. We certainly don't draft them well enough. We have 3 guys we've spent premium draft picks on and none are ever likely Pro Bowl level players. We then foul it up more by bringing in lower tiered FA's like those on Raanan's list. And when we do splurge, like on a Geoff Schwartz, he either can't stay healthy (which isn't a FO fault) or his performance isn't up to par.
There is no other FO I want more in acquiring just about any position on the team than the NYG, but when it comes to OT, C, and OG, there leaves a lot to be desired. Something needs to be reevaluated because we keep chasing the same carrot with absolutely zero results.
Disagree
The_Boss is a superior poster
I'm right about this team at an unheard of 100% clip.
This is true. No one should be surprised. Unfortunately, one could argue this philosophy is largely responsible for their failures in fielding a competent football team more often than not.
Quote:
How many doubt that even with this OL last year, had we had Marshall as the complement to OBJ, we'd have gone to the NFCC with our D?
I totally believe this..A blocking TE would have been an enormous help to the OL as well, but let's just stick with the Marshall hypothetical for now..
Many don't want to address that because their focus is solely the OL play and nothing else. I'm not guaranteeing they will be better this year, but the additions we made at WR and TE/FB will 100% help since we had neither last year.
Kicking and screaming about the OL is tiresome at this point. The Giants invested in the OL and those guys and the coaches need to figure out a way to make it work. If we kept investing in the OL we might be in the same exact spot we are in now, minus a top defense.
Yup. You get my point. Or an attempt at one..😎
Quote:
So nobody should be surprised that they believe in what they have with Pugh, Richburg, and flowers. They don't jump ship on their own, for the most part. Especially not when Richburg and Pugh have had good seasons under their belt already.
This is true. No one should be surprised. Unfortunately, one could argue this philosophy is largely responsible for their failures in fielding a competent football team more often than not.
The Coughlin years are clearly over, so I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in the pre-2016 Giants. We are clearly cutting fat and infusing talent at a much better rate. We will always give high picks time to develop; why pick a kid, literally a kid, to play LT if you aren't even going to give him time to finish growing?
Quote:
"It shouldn't take X years". Get a fucking grip. Be mad that we don't have a great OLine until you are blue in the face but you have no idea how it works and you never will (and that goes for me as well).
Disagree
The_Boss is a superior poster
I'm right about this team at an unheard of 100% clip.
I agree Boss has been pretty miserable on here the past day or so, but I agree on his concerns regarding the front office and evaluating offensive line talent. I mean we have drafted two first round tackles in the past couple of years and one is a guard now and the other is on his way to becoming a guard as well, and he was a top 10 pick. Nothing against guards, but you typically don't want them to be top 10 selections. That being said, the front office is excellent at evaluating DE, WR, CB, etc so there's a lot of positives there as well. At the end of the day, all you can do is hope they find a couple of good guys in the draft and move on. There's s reason it was mostly bad teams spending ridiculous sums of money on average lineman yesterday (Rams, Browns, Jaguars as a few examples).
4 years and 364 days!
We'd be well on our way if Richburg, Pugh, and Flowers were much better players than they've displayed thus far. Hitting on just one or 2 mid rounders would have helped instead of being completely worthless.
Quote:
In comment 13387177 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
So nobody should be surprised that they believe in what they have with Pugh, Richburg, and flowers. They don't jump ship on their own, for the most part. Especially not when Richburg and Pugh have had good seasons under their belt already.
This is true. No one should be surprised. Unfortunately, one could argue this philosophy is largely responsible for their failures in fielding a competent football team more often than not.
The Coughlin years are clearly over, so I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in the pre-2016 Giants. We are clearly cutting fat and infusing talent at a much better rate. We will always give high picks time to develop; why pick a kid, literally a kid, to play LT if you aren't even going to give him time to finish growing?
Although we have seen teams like the Patriots and Steelers give up on high draft picks after only a couple of seasons, I'm not ready to give up on Flowers yet. And I always say it takes about three seasons for these players to show what kind of player they will be. My only issue with regard to Flowers is that for the most part, he has been handed the starting spot with no competition and no consequences should he fail. And he has failed miserably. The team should be looking to add another piece via FA (not a high priced piece) or the draft to either compete with him or oust him should he not perform up to standards. There is plenty of time left, but it really wouldn't surprise me at all if they just decided to give him another season unchallenged. That, in my mind, would be a mistake.
As for Pugh and Richburg - they still need to prove themselves. At this point, I would not pay Pugh the amount of money that some of these guards are getting right now. He's had four seasons already. He's just not that good. He can't stay healthy. I said this on another thread but if it were me and I was going to end up splurging on a Guard either way - be it now or on Pugh next year, I'd rather do it now when I know I'm splurging on a good one. I'd look to draft another one as Pughs replacement and let him walk next year. It also makes extending Richburg easier next year. That makes more sense to me and is a better allocation of funds.
Again though, the most likely scenario is that the Giants will sit tight with what they have and will try to overpay for both Pugh and Richburg next year. One will leave, and they will have another hole to fill because there won't be anyone else to step in. That has been the pattern, for the most part. I would love to see this change and I hope it does. Better talent evaluation when it comes to drafting offensive linemen, and not being afraid to cut bait on the mistakes.
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
Don't you know that there are 31 DOMINATE OLs out there? The Giants are just stoopid and REFUSE TO FIX THE OL!
ITS BEEN YEARS!
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but finding quality O-Lineman isn't easy. How many great units are there? I'd answer that question first before the chest beating starts. Look at the Seahawks and Broncos; both have top defenses, weapons on offense, and bad offensive lines. Are their GM's and scouts really that bad at identifying talent or is it a combination of many other factors?
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
Don't you know that there are 31 DOMINATE OLs out there? The Giants are just stoopid and REFUSE TO FIX THE OL!
ITS BEEN YEARS!
That's WHY we only finished 11-5!
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In comment 13387290 UConn4523 said:
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but finding quality O-Lineman isn't easy. How many great units are there? I'd answer that question first before the chest beating starts. Look at the Seahawks and Broncos; both have top defenses, weapons on offense, and bad offensive lines. Are their GM's and scouts really that bad at identifying talent or is it a combination of many other factors?
That's really all I am trying to say. This isn't something only the Giants are struggling with, its probably the hardest thing to accomplish outside of finding a franchise QB (I'd even argue there's more franchise QB's currently in the NFL today than there are above average O-lines).
Don't you know that there are 31 DOMINATE OLs out there? The Giants are just stoopid and REFUSE TO FIX THE OL!
ITS BEEN YEARS!
That's WHY we only finished 11-5!
THEY WILL NEVER WIN A SUPER BOWL!!! EVER! MARK MY WORDS!!! I LIKE TO YELL LIKE THIS!!!!!!!!!!
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To build a competent O-Line, then I should be prepared to say just how long it should take, or forever hold my peace on the subject.
We'd be well on our way if Richburg, Pugh, and Flowers were much better players than they've displayed thus far. Hitting on just one or 2 mid rounders would have helped instead of being completely worthless.
The point is that building an offensive line - or a defensive line, or a WR corps, or a football team in general - is not an exact science. How many times have we seen "can't miss" prospects turn out to be busts, while unknown UDFAs go on to have great success? It happens all the time, and pissing and moaning about the Giants not adhering to your imaginary timetable adds nothing to the discussion.
However, this is still America, so feel free to piss and moan all you want.
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In comment 13387262 Klaatu said:
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To build a competent O-Line, then I should be prepared to say just how long it should take, or forever hold my peace on the subject.
We'd be well on our way if Richburg, Pugh, and Flowers were much better players than they've displayed thus far. Hitting on just one or 2 mid rounders would have helped instead of being completely worthless.
The point is that building an offensive line - or a defensive line, or a WR corps, or a football team in general - is not an exact science. How many times have we seen "can't miss" prospects turn out to be busts, while unknown UDFAs go on to have great success? It happens all the time, and pissing and moaning about the Giants not adhering to your imaginary timetable adds nothing to the discussion.
However, this is still America, so feel free to piss and moan all you want.
There's not much to discuss. The OL has sucked and it appears it will continue to suck in 2017. Hopefully we don't lose too many low scoring games to keep us out of the playoffs.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
had more money to spend. I tried to tell people they wouldn't have much to spend after the JPP tag, and also he wouldn't be signed at the start of the new season yesterday.
Looks like Kevin Zeitler hit the Osmele windfall this year,
no surprise there.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
Good post, per usual
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
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The Giants OL has been pretty much the same the last 2 years except for injuries. Eli was supposed to get killed with the OL. Two years ago the offense statistically worked but the team sucked. Last year, the offense sucked but the team won 11 games. The defense was upgraded because they had money to spend because they didn't throw any money on mediocre OL who could have been small upgrades. And that's what your're asking them to do this year. Throw away money on journeymen linemen and you won't have cap space for talent. Besides it's still only day 2 and stuff will still happen.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
And before any of you decide to unnecessarily try to shit on this post, Bob Papa said the exact same thing in his interview with Dottino in the latest episode of his Papa Cast.
Get some raw, inexpensive clay and try to coach it up. We run a west coast offense so pass protection should be a little easier with short drops and quick releases. Focus on guys who are solid run blockers and leave it to the coaching staff to improve technique and then scheme with TE and RB chips to supplement.
This is a big year for the OL coaching staff. This line underperformed last year, and at some points looked like they had had little to no coaching at all. I don't expect Flowers to turn into an All Pro next year, but I sure would like to see less instances of him running backwards on his heels with his hands at his waist.
No, too pricey. He will get at least 8 mill. per.
Leary got about 9 mill. per.
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In comment 13387330 Samiam said:
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The Giants OL has been pretty much the same the last 2 years except for injuries. Eli was supposed to get killed with the OL. Two years ago the offense statistically worked but the team sucked. Last year, the offense sucked but the team won 11 games. The defense was upgraded because they had money to spend because they didn't throw any money on mediocre OL who could have been small upgrades. And that's what your're asking them to do this year. Throw away money on journeymen linemen and you won't have cap space for talent. Besides it's still only day 2 and stuff will still happen.
As an aside, we now have Marshall who can block, Cruz could not. Ellison can block; Donnell could not. Perkins can run; Jennings left a ton of yards on the field. We are already better in the running game
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
And before any of you decide to unnecessarily try to shit on this post, Bob Papa said the exact same thing in his interview with Dottino in the latest episode of his Papa Cast.
Great post. Hopeful for one OL for the right side.
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How much do you see Lang getting? Is there any chance the Giants go after him? If you're going to leave Flowers at LT, why not try to strengthen the rest of the line?
.
No, too pricey. He will get at least 8 mill. per.
Leary got about 9 mill. per.
No way to make that work? Would you rather have Hankins or Lang? Is Lang worth it?
If you have no idea how it works how do you know he doesnt know?
Remember,evolution not revolution
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year. [/quote]
The stats don't back this up so it doesn't matter that Bob Pappas said it. Two out of three of Eli's best games this year came after the season-ruining hit. And while yes, Eli had a bad then mediocre game in week 4 and 5, he also had a relatively good stretch of football from week six to week 11 that was just shy of his "hot" start to begin the season.
Hey, I'd love for that to happen. Sadly tho it's about as likely as my dream of making Kate Upton's face look like it was hit by a lemon merengue pie after a night of banging.
While he didn't get killed, Chris Baker totally F'ed Eli up in week 3 to the point where he wasn't the same thrower the rest of the year.
The stats don't back this up so it doesn't matter that Bob Pappas said it. Two out of three of Eli's best games this year came after the season-ruining hit. And while yes, Eli had a bad then mediocre game in week 4 and 5, he also had a relatively good stretch of football from week six to week 11 that was just shy of his "hot" start to begin the season. [/quote]
Come on. It doesn't take the trained eye of a QB coach to see Eli's internal clock was way off, he was feeling pressure-both real and imaginary, his footwork/mechanics suffered, and was often inaccurate. Seemingly most of his deep sideline throws were way off target. He hit a lot fewer than he had in the past. Both Papa and Dottino concurred, stats be damned.