Now that the first wave of FA is pretty much over, and panic is setting in here at BBI. I was hoping we can try to have a reasonable discussion about where we stand with this unit currently.
There were a lot of factors that went into what was a mediocre performance last season on the whole. Richburg was battling injury early. Pugh (and his backups) went down midseason.
If we are being honest, the skill position players besides Beckham either sucked or were rookies. And Eli, perhaps did not have his best year in terms of pocket presence. He definitely seemed to be ducking out/bailing on plays a little prematurely, more so earlier in the season (after that big hit against Washington). One of the beat writers, I forget which one, provided damning evidence of Jennings missing wide open gaps on well executed run plays. McAdoo briefly touched on some of the issues with Eli when he talked at the combine.
Anyway, the point is, even with all of this, your opinion of the OL moving forward likely boils down to whether or not you believe in Hart and Flowers. If you think both will improve, like I believe the Giants do, then you are really talking about filling one spot along the line, most likely RG.
Obviously because you need to plan for worst case, you continue to build depth, but there's no need to force anything at this point.
I think adding someone like D.J. Fluker plus an interior OL in the first few rounds to compete for that last starting spot is what I would turn my attention to now. There are probably some other lower level FA options they can afford to bring in for competition as well.
Finally, I think an influx of talent at the skill positions is going to help make the OL look alot better next season.
Perkins, Vereen
OBJ, Marshall, Shepard
Ellison
Best QB, best WRs, 2nd best RBs, average TE.
Not too shabby.
Talented fucker..Too bad he's been injured a lot..Not sure what his present health status is
One of the 4 you mentioned will certainly be available, IMO.
One of the 4 you mentioned will certainly be available, IMO.
I agree. OL-ER or OL-TE (switching out rounds 1 and 2) would be great.
Moving Flowers to right side would help him.....
If Hart can handle the RT spot.....Flowers could dominate the RG spot.....
He is probably looking for a 3 year deal, and the Jints
are waiting to re-sign him on a 2 year deal.
I wouldn't go more than 2 years, and about 6.5 mill.
Let's say about half of that guaranteed. Most of the guards
are gone in free agency already. They might be able to find
a plug and play guy in the draft, but not holding my breath.
It is not a good draft year for the O Line,
better on the D Line.
It would have been great to bring in one of the available guys if the money was right...but it wasn't. I think people forget that the Giants offense was top ten the previous season with essentially the same guys that played last year. I think the biggest difference was the lack of a good blocking TE and no fullback on the roster at all. Ellison is one piece of that puzzle.
Perkins, Vereen
OBJ, Marshall, Shepard
Ellison
Best QB, best WRs, 2nd best RBs, average TE.
Not too shabby.
I don't agree. The Cowboys have the better RBs, and TEs. Dez and OBJ are a push as well as Shepard and Beasley. IMHO the huge gap between Dallas' TEs and ours negates any additional advantages we might have at WR. Eli is where we have the advantage
Likely....perhaps they slide Pugh to LT. But that would be a panic move. Thinking Flowers is going to be better somewhere else along the line is a bit too optimistic.
A running game would help...and Flowers is serviceable in that area.
He is probably looking for a 3 year deal, and the Jints
are waiting to re-sign him on a 2 year deal.
I wouldn't go more than 2 years, and about 6.5 mill.
Let's say about half of that guaranteed. Most of the guards
are gone in free agency already. They might be able to find
a plug and play guy in the draft, but not holding my breath.
It is not a good draft year for the O Line,
better on the D Line.
Chance Warmack went to the fucking Eaqgle for a million bucks, if we sign John TurnFuckinStyle Jerry to anything over the vet minimum I will throw my fucking mouse and bash my keyboard.
John Jerry warts and all was at worst the giants second best OL last year.
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If a free agent named John Jerry is re-signed here.
He is probably looking for a 3 year deal, and the Jints
are waiting to re-sign him on a 2 year deal.
I wouldn't go more than 2 years, and about 6.5 mill.
Let's say about half of that guaranteed. Most of the guards
are gone in free agency already. They might be able to find
a plug and play guy in the draft, but not holding my breath.
It is not a good draft year for the O Line,
better on the D Line.
Chance Warmack went to the fucking Eaqgle for a million bucks, if we sign John TurnFuckinStyle Jerry to anything over the vet minimum I will throw my fucking mouse and bash my keyboard.
That's one of the biggest surprises for me so far in FA. I though we'd be lucky to get him at the 5mil/yr range.
...no real chance to do anything in the playoffs, assuming we get back to the playoffs in 2017.
Ereck Flowers is now the Giants #1 problem... a premium draft pick who regressed in Year Two, while being healthier than in Year One.
Bad omen.
Another bad omen: No one else on our front line is exactly a world beater. NO ONE. On a good day, it's a fair-to-middling unit. On a bad day, our RBs are drilled in the backfield and our future HOF QB plays duck-and-chuck.
...no real chance to do anything in the playoffs, assuming we get back to the playoffs in 2017.
Ereck Flowers is now the Giants #1 problem... a premium draft pick who regressed in Year Two, while being healthier than in Year One.
Bad omen.
Another bad omen: No one else on our front line is exactly a world beater. NO ONE. On a good day, it's a fair-to-middling unit. On a bad day, our RBs are drilled in the backfield and our future HOF QB plays duck-and-chuck.
So does this mean you'll stop posting? Not sure we'll be able to function during the season without your "My observations" thread after every single game.
Would be real nice to secure either one!
John Jerry warts and all was at worst the giants second best OL last year.
I agree with you, Warmack has been a disappointment.
I would have liked Warford okay here.
Off of his comments and from what I've been reading, I'd be onboard for that as well
We tried to do the whole "win now" thing and signed free agent OLs in the past that were dubbed "great moves." They turned out to be awful. Have we not learned?
Yea, they could have done better than Jennings last season, but it's not like that line was constantly opening up holes and Jennings was missing them every time.
I like the fact that you think a guy like Fluker could be an upgrade. A lot of people here follow the organization's lead in denying how bad the O line is, and Flowers is going to come around and play like a franchise left tackle. I would love to be wrong, but I aint seeing it. No feet, and he's supposedly athletic? But can't even come close to dropping like a tackle should.
Eli has always hated getting hit, thats what he is, and he's done pretty good by us. Need to make him as comfortable as possible in the pocket. Have to do something to add to the O line.
Moving Flowers to the right side "might" help him. Just adding a minor little qualifier there.
Never had significant time, if any, on that side with the Giants. The U moved him to the left early, and left him there.
Rather than crapping around, preference would be for the Giants to draft the best OG projection (might be Lamp) stick him at RG, and make teams fear, rather than laugh, that we might run the ball on first down.
Moving Flowers to the right side "might" help him. Just adding a minor little qualifier there.
Never had significant time, if any, on that side with the Giants. The U moved him to the left early, and left him there.
Rather than crapping around, preference would be for the Giants to draft the best OG projection (might be Lamp) stick him at RG, and make teams fear, rather than laugh, that we might run the ball on first down.
Agree with this, +1. Only caveat is I would take Robinson or Ramzcyk too. Let them compete at RT, LT, and RG, and see what happens. The best 5 start.
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Eli
Perkins, Vereen
OBJ, Marshall, Shepard
Ellison
Best QB, best WRs, 2nd best RBs, average TE.
Not too shabby.
I don't agree. The Cowboys have the better RBs, and TEs. Dez and OBJ are a push as well as Shepard and Beasley. IMHO the huge gap between Dallas' TEs and ours negates any additional advantages we might have at WR. Eli is where we have the advantage
Dez and OBJ are a push as well as Shepard and Beasley but we have Marshall and they have no one close. We're better at QB. And you overestimate the Dallas TEs. Witten was 69 for 673 at 9.8/per with 3 TDs. Their other TEs did next to nothing. And I gave them the #1 RB spot but we're still #2.
609 Yards
3 TD's
Blocking ability is subjective, but likely could be improved
Many here won't like it, but the reality is we likely won't see a big move for an OL. We'll have to hope for improvement from our own, maybe some help in the draft if someone falls who can come in day 1 (unlikely this year it seems), and maybe a less notable name vet. I'd guess we see Flowers - Pugh - Richburg - Jerry - Hart/FA as the starters next year. Outside of Flowers, that wouldn't be terrible - most teams have at least one weak spot on OL. However, Flowers failing to improve has really hurt us since our other talent is interior OL, so it leaves us weak at both OT's. Maybe the light clicks on for him in year 3. Maybe he finds a home and they get by with a less than ideal solution at LT, a la Diehl. My guess is we see improved play and scheme helping Flowers, solid work form the middle 3, and hopefully Hart or an FA can step up and do an average job at RT. An average RG/RT, with good play from C and Pro Bowl level LG could be enough, with scheme help, to keep this offense ticking over without a top LT.
Round 2 Take one of Lamp, Feeney, Johnson or Dawkins
Round 3 Take one of Butt, Everett, Leggett or Shaheeen
In each round 1 of these players should be available.
Round 2 Take one of Lamp, Feeney, Johnson or Dawkins
Round 3 Take one of Butt, Everett, Leggett or Shaheeen
In each round 1 of these players should be available.
boiles in 1?
I'll look for death of the first born in round 10...
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is pretty high on Ramcyzk from what I recall. And he believes Robinson can be an elite guard. I'd be very happy with either at 23.
Would be real nice to secure either one!
if he's there at 23..i'd jump on it and draft him..regardless whom else is on the board then. Either way, the OL in 2017 is going to hinder the offense in production again..not their fault..just nothing out there that can help or better players avail that can afford.
Beacham is a significant improvement in pass blocking at LT to Flowers. That is a plus in and of itself. However, moving Flowers and signing Fluker for the right side is more important.
One of the Giants primary problems with running the ball in recent years has been the inability to move interior DL. Fluker and Flowers would give the power to move people- and a healthy Pugh would help on the left side.
The importance is simple- when Eli was in his early prime and during the Super Bowl runs, one of Eli's primary weapons to slow the pass rush as the play action. The ability to freeze the pass rush- even if only for a second- so that they have to assess if it is a pass or run give the QB time. In recent years, teams have defensed the Giants by staying in a pass defense- they KNEW the Giants could not and would not run the ball effectively.
By changing the equation- getting more push up front (and likely drafting a young power RB), plus the addition of a good blocking FB/TE- would result in a greater chance of the Giants being able to effectively run the ball. That, in turn, forces defenses to be honest and maintain lanes and contain instead of just pinning their ears back and rushing the QB.
In other words, if the Giants are at least adequate to good running the ball, the DE/pass rush LB must pause and assess whether Eli is handling off the ball for a run or it is a ball fake- that's an extra second for the offense. With Eli now having 3 legit WR weapons (and we assume that the Giants add a TE in the draft), that extra second means more ball movement. It also means that the OL does not have to maintain the blocks so long.
Sure, the "big names" that everyone knows for OL are going off the board. However, sometimes you need to assess what is the team's need. Is it 5 All Pro OL who dominate up front, or is it the ability to run the ball and be adequate in pass pro?
If the Giants can run the ball, then Eli's strong play action skills become valuable to buy his OL more time- which in turn makes them better. Play to your QB's strengths.
2. Tackle
3. Tackle
4. Qb
5. Tackle
6. Tackle
7. K
2. Tackle
3. Tackle
4. Qb
5. Tackle
6. Tackle
7. K
Sign me up!
OG can be had in the 2nd and there are OTs that will be available after but the class is not very good.
...no real chance to do anything in the playoffs, assuming we get back to the playoffs in 2017.
Ereck Flowers is now the Giants #1 problem... a premium draft pick who regressed in Year Two, while being healthier than in Year One.
Bad omen.
Another bad omen: No one else on our front line is exactly a world beater. NO ONE. On a good day, it's a fair-to-middling unit. On a bad day, our RBs are drilled in the backfield and our future HOF QB plays duck-and-chuck.
DIdnt you say the Giants would suck prior to the 2016 season? How'd that turn out? You might want to allow for some variance in your doom and gloom predictions.
Quote:
1. Tackle
2. Tackle
3. Tackle
4. Qb
5. Tackle
6. Tackle
7. K
Sign me up!
Yes draft for need and cluster draft no less. What if there isn't a good player? Draft him anyway?
That's terrible.
Color me worried right now. Very worried.
Color me worried right now. Very worried.
Fair accurate summary IMO. Keeping my fingers crossed that Hart continues to move in the right direction, and that our LG and C play to BBI expectations, which are fairly high. As for John Jerry, he played above expectations, which were not high. And as for our LT... "Houston, we have a problem."