Just taking a break from the pre-draft work. I have to do all of the team needs for Ourlads and I just finished NYG. After looking at the roster, what's out there, an d trying to forecast what NYG will do, here is what I came up with:
1) The starting offensive line is likely on the roster, minus one. That one being whichever position Fluker won't be playing. Personally, I would be more confident with him at guard but I think NYG will be putting him at RT. That leaves the RG spot still open but the things they've said about Bobby Hart in the past leads me to believe he is the likely guy. I still think there is a good chance John Jerry is re-signed as well. Considering the finances, I don't think NYG will consider Mangold, Pasztor, or Evans.
I do think they will add OL in the draft, but to assume they will get a starter #23 overall is dangerous. They will add for depth along the OL in the mid to late rounds, and go to battle with this group.
2) Hankins stil dangles out there, and I am surprised. I was told DEN would be going after him hard unless he priced himself out. That appears to be the case, as they added 2 DTs yesterday. Is there a chance Hankins re-signs with NYG on a 1 year, prove it deal? I think so. It is very unknown what Hankins actually is.
For what NYG needs out of their DTs, a good bargain can be had on the market. A few cheap names to consider, Al Woods and Stacy McGee. Both are limited impact guys, but they are stout gap controllers. NYG knows they need that and the draft can be a hard place to find immediate impact run defenders at the position.
This is another priority position for NYG in the draft. I don't mean early necessarily, but if they find a value at any point they will pull the trigger. The team is scary-thin here and they know it. One injury and it could ruin the defense as a whole.
3) This offensive staff like reliability and some experience at RB, even if it means less upside. With Perkins being groomed, I think their dumpster-dive signing will be here. I don't see Lacy. Peterson, Blount, Murray....etc. Too much $ there. I think they bring in a cheap veteran and a mid to late round rookie. A combination like Khiry Robinson and4th rounder Same Perine is something I could see.
Here's an interesting question....if Leonard Fournette is available at #23, would NYG go for it? I lean towards yes. McAdoo wants/needs a dangerous presence at RB.
4) The deepest position in the draft is, without a doubt, CB. NYG is strong here, but long term (as soon as next year) it could be a spot with multiple holes. With the amount of DBs on the field these days, NYG is going to add one in this draft. I can see them waiting until round 3 and grabbing a value that drops. And that will happen. There are just too. many top 75 overall CBs in this class, some of them will drop based on over-supply.
5) I don't think the Ellison signing is going to prevent NYG from looking at TE early. But I only think they will consider Howard/Njoku at #23. If one of them is there, I can see it happening. As a matter of fact, I'd put them as the favorite as the most likely pick at #23 if I had to choose now.
6) Lastly...This is worth a discussion eventually...but Deshaun Watson. I think it's worth considering a possibility. I have multiple reasons for this...but main one being if there is an ideal situation for him in the NFL, NYG is it. No pressure to play right away. A market that would love him. And a QB to follow that, other than athletic ability, is very similar to Watson himself.
7) Top 5 Predictions for NYG at #23 based on who I think they will like and who I think has a chance at being available:
1 - OJ Howard - TE/Alabama
2 - David Njoku - TE/Miami
3 - Taco Charlton - DE/Michigan
4 - Haason Reddick - LB/Temple
5 - Deshaun Watson - QB/Clemson
Its not 'spilled milk', its simply reminding fans of the obvious overall trends and pitfalls this time of year and the predictable results of those.
Now, we risk going back to Light in the Ass on DL, while -remaining- Light in the Ass at the G-C-G trio, (since fluker and flowers are actually tackles not guards) which had predictable results last year. So, if that remains the case, get ready for mediocrity ball.
Add into that scenario, MacAdoo seems to avoid smash mouth running, also does not seem to use the pulling guards and all that fancy shit, simply seems to want to have his OL stand firm, feet in cement and wait for the pass to come out, which makes light assed G-C-G pairings worse. Chris Canty was mentioning this last week.
Specifically, neither Flowers nor Fluker are guards really nor, nor seemingly 'guard type OL prospects' to boot. Hopefully so, but its not that apparent really.
Dallas lost 2 starters on O and have to hope Collins is the answer at one spot. This team will score points but I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a huge step back. They are losing like 3 of their top five defensive backs.
Even though Pasztor is a better fit at RG than RT I would still like to see the Giants sign him to a 3 year deal in the 10-12 million range. He could compete with Hart and a likely draft pick for the RT job. If he loses out then he would provide excellent depth at both guard and tackle. If Pugh misses a few games again then they would have nice interior depth with Pasztor and Brett Jones.
TE? I would put that here. I am ok with the Ellison signing and I like Adams. Everybody else? Eh. We could use another TE that can work the middle of the field and stretch the seam. The Ole Miss TE was not high on my list originally but if he somehow made it to our second round pick I would take a serious look at him. It depends on who else is available. Another guy I really like is the Villanova DE there.
Then, the tendency to over look the G-C-G trio here is legendary, add in the extra weight needed for Mac Ball, I am still looking at Guards, DTs and Centers rounds 1-4.
Lamp as left guard and go from there, Moton, DT Qualls, Asiata, those types early and often.
Nothing has changed. Adding Fluker and removing Hanks only makes it more important.
RD2 Forrest Lamp
RD3 BPA, which is probably CB as Sy 56 notes.
This and bringing back Hankins put us into contention immediately.
RD2 Forrest Lamp
RD3 BPA, which is probably CB as Sy 56 notes.
This and bringing back Hankins put us into contention immediately.
Even after the combine fiasco Foster will still go before the Giants pick.
2. Hank or another DT
3. Get JPP signed or draft a DE/ER
4. LB (hopefully they also resign Robinson)
5. Backup CB
6. Kicker
7. Backup RB
8. FB (especially if Ellison is to line up as the blocking TE)
The idea with Hank from pre-draft that year for me, was that he was a niftier than average big type DT that could sometimes go one gapping at the 3 tech. Maybe see former 3/4 DEs Canty or Cofield as reference. or maybe not.
One of the benefits of having Snacks is that you can use a larger DT at the 3 tech, assuming the very rare smaller quick and. actually. functioning. ones are not there. Many would-be smaller 3 techs do wash out of the league or the lines, no?
Its not like one can just 'pick up' great or even good bigger 3 tech DTs and very good 'packers type' guards...no, it takes early picks and often.
Then, the tendency to over look the G-C-G trio here is legendary, add in the extra weight needed for Mac Ball, I am still looking at Guards, DTs and Centers rounds 1-4.
Lamp as left guard and go from there, Moton, DT Qualls, Asiata, those types early and often.
Nothing has changed. Adding Fluker and removing Hanks only makes it more important.
I don't think one year determines a trend. Spags used the pieces he had last year. I don't think we need a big body next to Snacks. While our run D improved dramatically our pass rush left a lot to be desired and a big problem with that was little push from our interior guys. People look at Vernon and JPP and say they didn't have enough sacks. True, they didn't. But they had pressures. A good DL can work together in unison. Too many times a QB was able to step up in the pocket to avoid our DEs rushing. Imo, it would be nice to have a plugger next to Snacks but it is probably more important to get a guy who can get pressure on the inside since Snacks, JPP, and Vernon are all plus run defenders.
2. Hank or another DT
3. Get JPP signed or draft a DE/ER
4. LB (hopefully they also resign Robinson)
5. Backup CB
6. Kicker
7. Backup RB
8. FB (especially if Ellison is to line up as the blocking TE)
The only change I'd make it to sign JPP AND draft another pass rusher
I agree with you. I would much rather draft an OL, DE, or LB wiht their first round pick but if OJ Howard falls to the Giants I would love for them to draft him. If they added him to the offense then the Giants would be one good offensive linemen away from having a top offense.
and, in all those cases, insight is required and emphasis either with high draft picks or great scouting efforts.
(better than we have had mostly)
1. Lamp as a left guard
2. Moton as a right guard
3. Qualls as a DT
(had been thinking asiata as a G to C conversion replace Richburg eventually, but DT is looking like a need)
OR, by round
1. DT (but whom here )
2. OG
3. OG
I would not rest next season on Flowers, Fluker and Bromley, no, not at all.
the last two years with the Chargers. Players like Fluker
get a one year prove it deal, not a player like Hankins.
I don't agree with Sy that Fluker will play tackle here,
and what does Hankins have to prove?
I think folks really need to keep in mind with Bolles and
Ramszck? that both only played one year of major college ball, so that could be what Sy meant. So if people thought Flowers was raw coming out (and he was), after playing
3 years of major college ball, what does one think of the
two aforementioned draftees? I wouldn't be surprised if they
are backups their first year. I don't think Watson is in play this year as well, maybe a late round pick like the kid from Cal, not a good QB class to me.
RD2 Forrest Lamp
RD3 BPA, which is probably CB as Sy 56 notes.
This and bringing back Hankins put us into contention immediately.
I'd sign up for that in a heartbeat.
Keep the D strong and add some quality pieces to it while also filling a big need that is the OL.
I'd be very surprised if the Giants took Watson. He's a proven leader, who threw very well at the combine. But he also threw 30 INTs in the last two seasons, and made most of his throws from the shotgun. I assume Trubisky is gone. Mahomes is more likely than Watson. Bigger arm and frame. I wouldn't draft Mahomes at #23, but I could see the Giants doing so. Reese likes guys with upside. Mahomes is a classic "high ceiling," "low floor," player, but he has a much bigger potential upside than Watson.
Howard, Njoku, Davis, Reddick, Barnett, Bolles, Ramczyk, Robinson, and Charlton are all likely to be gone by #23.
I agree we'll add a veteran RB, and another in draft. Perine is a good mid round choice. For DT, I think the Giants will go with Thomas, and add another in the draft. As I've said, I like DeAngelo Brown. A day three OL is likely. Look for DE and CB early. We need to groom someone to replace JPP, and the draft is loaded at CB.
For us mere mortals, having one groundbreaking out standing unit that can take over games is the key, and we are very, very close on DL.
Therefore, if we do manage to talk ourselves into thinking that some combination of our current OL can get it done for this team, with this coach, and this QB next year (a major mistake in my view now and for the future as well) and, if we insist on using the first round or early rounds for other positions, I would let that be at DT.
However, I have not looked this year and have -no idea- about whom those great DTs are this year.......SY GO!
Quote:
RD1 Ruben Foster
RD2 Forrest Lamp
RD3 BPA, which is probably CB as Sy 56 notes.
This and bringing back Hankins put us into contention immediately.
I'd sign up for that in a heartbeat.
Keep the D strong and add some quality pieces to it while also filling a big need that is the OL.
Getting Lamp in the 2nd Rd would be a dream scenario, but I do not think its realistic. He should be long gone by then
Sounds like he and his agent are asking for money that is mxh more than "run stopper"
For us mere mortals, having one groundbreaking out standing unit that can take over games is the key, and we are very, very close on DL.
Therefore, if we do manage to talk ourselves into thinking that some combination of our current OL can get it done for this team, with this coach, and this QB next year (a major mistake in my view now and for the future as well) and, if we insist on using the first round or early rounds for other positions, I would let that be at DT.
However, I have not looked this year and have -no idea- about whom those great DTs are this year.......SY GO!
I don't know how you got that from my post. I do agree that you are only as good as your weakest link but never did I say we have to be perfect everywhere. If you noticed what I said, I said I am fine with our DL right now but we need ro get more pass rushers. That would make that a dominant group and if we want our offense ro do anything they need the OL to play better. Those are the two biggest areas imo but not the only ones.
Do you think he can play RT? If not - is going to be a really good guard.
I'm referencing Johnson as a 2nd/3rd roundeb
don't think that prospect you mentioned makes a good guard for us.
Do you think he can play RT? If not - is going to be a really good guard.
I've asked Sy about Dorian Johnson before. Sy said he was pretty high on him, although we didn't discuss specific positions.
Personally, I think he can play RG or RT, but is probably better off at RG.
''Johnson patiently waits for defenders to get close to him and using his wide frame to engulf them. Once close, Johnson can get lazy with his fundamentals, dropping his head on contact and failing to keep his feet shuffling laterally. Johnson shows some stiffness in his core, struggling to re-direct and recover if defenders counter back inside.''
Instead, I think the Giants are making a philosophical shift for Eli or bust to an offense that is based on the ability to run the ball and generally decide when it wants to pass the ball rather than being dependent on throwing it. The Giants have not been able to run the ball in years- but the personnel they are bringing in are pieces of a run-centered offense.
It also works to Eli's advantage. By being able to run the ball, defenses have to stay honest- no more bum rushing the pocket- they will have to play contain and LB will have to hold their position rather than adding bodies to the pass rush.
I think we are more likely to see an offense that usually goes to the line with a run play called- but allows Eli to read the defense and audible to a pass play were he sees a mismatch. How many times this year did we see Eli sit in the shotgun and have no one to throw to because the defense knew it was a pass play- the answer is many times each game. By letting Eli pick his spots, the chances of an open receiver on the play improve- and the run game opens all of that.
I think SY is right that the Giants would go with the 2 big TE if they are there- but that feeds into the new philosophy as well. Howard is supposed to be a good blocker too- and Njoku has the tools.
I think that the Giants may also go for a RB that gets yards falling forward and tough yards. I think they would LOVE Fournette to fall to them, but after the combine, I don't see it.
I also think that SY sees the transition with his Watson discussion. To succeed in the NFL, Watson is going to need an offense that will be able to run the ball so that he isn't going to be scrambling for his life back there.
Just saying, I think as fans that McAdoo was trying to get us prepared for a less Eli-focused offense when he made his comments at the combine.
or could it be the return of the "balance" that you guys hated so much?
''Brantley tallied 31 tackles, 9.5 tackles for loss, 2.5 sacks, three quarterback hurries and a forced fumble overall in 2016. For his career, Brantley recorded 81 tackles, 20 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks, three forced fumbles and one fumble recovery. He was more disruptive than these numbers suggest, however, frequently slashing through the line to harass quarterbacks and ruining opposing rushing attacks despite often facing double-teams. Perhaps at no point was this more evident than in a showdown with rival LSU when the redshirt junior defensive snuffed out three potential scoring drives, including one in the final seconds to preserve the Gators' stunning 16-10 victory, recording five tackles, including three for loss and a forced fumble.
Due to his initial quickness, Brantley projects best as a three-technique defensive tackle in a classic 4-3 alignment. He is likely to come off the board somewhere in the late first to mid second round.
ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS: Has a compact, powerful frame with a naturally low center of gravity and thick limbs. Springs off the snap with the initial quickness to penetrate gaps and wreak havoc in the backfield. Brantley does a nice job of using an over-arm swim and chopping his hands to knock away the blockers' attempts to latch on, coordinating his hands and feet to slip free. Brantley's quick, powerful hands also show up with his ability to punch the ball out as ball-carriers attempt to slide past him. He shows impressive upper body strength to stack and shed blocks, as well as the lateral agility and balance to sprawl and keep blockers from reaching his legs, rarely getting knocked to the ground. Highly regarded by the Florida coaching staff for his toughness and selfless play.
WEAKNESSES: Average size for the position and his frame might not handle much weight without negatively impacting his quickness. Brantley appears to possess just average arm length and he can struggle to disengage once blockers have successfully latched on. While possessing an explosive initial burst, Brantley tires quickly and does not possess ideal speed for stalking or in pursuit - a characteristic many of the elite three-techniques possess. He shows balance and quickness with a spin move but is slow to pick up the ball again after losing sight of it when using this technique.
''
However, I would caution to draft a huge nose type as well as there is no substitute and as insurance for Snacks.
For all defensive linesmen I would always advise to look for the fumbles caused, fumbles recovered, plays made dowfield as well as the obvious items like sacks and tackles. the outlier stats indicate qualities that are hard to measure.
''Brantley tallied 31 tackles, 9.5 tackles for loss, 2.5 sacks, three quarterback hurries and a forced fumble overall in 2016. For his career, Brantley recorded 81 tackles, 20 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks, three forced fumbles and one fumble recovery. He was more disruptive than these numbers suggest, however, frequently slashing through the line to harass quarterbacks and ruining opposing rushing attacks despite often facing double-teams. Perhaps at no point was this more evident than in a showdown with rival LSU when the redshirt junior defensive snuffed out three potential scoring drives, including one in the final seconds to preserve the Gators' stunning 16-10 victory, recording five tackles, including three for loss and a forced fumble.
Due to his initial quickness, Brantley projects best as a three-technique defensive tackle in a classic 4-3 alignment. He is likely to come off the board somewhere in the late first to mid second round.
ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS: Has a compact, powerful frame with a naturally low center of gravity and thick limbs. Springs off the snap with the initial quickness to penetrate gaps and wreak havoc in the backfield. Brantley does a nice job of using an over-arm swim and chopping his hands to knock away the blockers' attempts to latch on, coordinating his hands and feet to slip free. Brantley's quick, powerful hands also show up with his ability to punch the ball out as ball-carriers attempt to slide past him. He shows impressive upper body strength to stack and shed blocks, as well as the lateral agility and balance to sprawl and keep blockers from reaching his legs, rarely getting knocked to the ground. Highly regarded by the Florida coaching staff for his toughness and selfless play.
WEAKNESSES: Average size for the position and his frame might not handle much weight without negatively impacting his quickness. Brantley appears to possess just average arm length and he can struggle to disengage once blockers have successfully latched on. While possessing an explosive initial burst, Brantley tires quickly and does not possess ideal speed for stalking or in pursuit - a characteristic many of the elite three-techniques possess. He shows balance and quickness with a spin move but is slow to pick up the ball again after losing sight of it when using this technique.
''
However, I would caution to draft a huge nose type as well as there is no substitute and as insurance for Snacks.
For all defensive linesmen I would always advise to look for the fumbles caused, fumbles recovered, plays made dowfield as well as the obvious items like sacks and tackles. the outlier stats indicate qualities that are hard to measure.
Brantley apparently had terrible interviews at the combine. He was described as immature. Not sure how much of that is true, but that is what I read.
Don't think it's that great.
I think the 5 rd 1 targets you mentioned are all types that check a lot of the boxes they've traditionally looked for. The only guy I could see them being on the fence about is Njoku because he's not the most natural football player and there's so much depth at the TE/WR position, but I do see them wanting to get a physical receiver prospect beyond adding a 33yo Marshall. I think our first 2 picks will be some combination of pass rusher and physical pass catcher since both are essential needs and play to the strength of the draft.
For OL I think it's likely they look for someone with versatility in the 3rd/4th to compete for a spot this year but more likely groom in case Richburg or Pugh don't get resigned. If they present good value at some point Sean Harlow, Pat Elflein or Pocic would fit that profile.
Do you think he can play RT? If not - is going to be a really good guard.
It's an interesting idea...he was originally an OT at Pittsburgh. I can't say though...would have to see him on the field. My initial thought is no, his feet aren't good enough.
I love him as an OG.
Ramszck? that both only played one year of major college ball, so that could be what Sy meant. So if people thought Flowers was raw coming out (and he was), after playing
3 years of major college ball, what does one think of the
two aforementioned draftees?
I think the 5 rd 1 targets you mentioned are all types that check a lot of the boxes they've traditionally looked for. The only guy I could see them being on the fence about is Njoku because he's not the most natural football player and there's so much depth at the TE/WR position, but I do see them wanting to get a physical receiver prospect beyond adding a 33yo Marshall. I think our first 2 picks will be some combination of pass rusher and physical pass catcher since both are essential needs and play to the strength of the draft.
For OL I think it's likely they look for someone with versatility in the 3rd/4th to compete for a spot this year but more likely groom in case Richburg or Pugh don't get resigned. If they present good value at some point Sean Harlow, Pat Elflein or Pocic would fit that profile.
Corn Elder in the fourth would be a great pick. 3rd seems like it might not be the best value. I like Elder though. He could be the NYPD slot guy of the future.
Sy,
I still love McCaffrey as a sleeper. Don't see a chance Fournette or Cook are there. Any Giant front office thoughs on him, or his availability?
Agree with Torrag on what remains, and also would point out those are positions NYG tends to value early and often in the draft.