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Giants have least amount of cap space in NFL ($5MM)

jlukes : 3/13/2017 8:28 am
per twitter
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RE: LOL RE: Harris  
TheMick7 : 3/13/2017 9:32 am : link
In comment 13390954 area junc said:
Quote:
So put OBJ at PR, Vereen or someone else to catch touchbacks and ask one of your several WRs or DBs to play gunner. Not that big a deal.

Harris is a very good punt gunner, I'll give him that, but you don't pay $3M to a gunner.


OBJ primary punt returner=Jason Sehorn
RE: RE: LOL RE: Harris  
YAJ2112 : 3/13/2017 9:36 am : link
In comment 13390962 TheMick7 said:
Quote:
In comment 13390954 area junc said:


Quote:


So put OBJ at PR, Vereen or someone else to catch touchbacks and ask one of your several WRs or DBs to play gunner. Not that big a deal.

Harris is a very good punt gunner, I'll give him that, but you don't pay $3M to a gunner.



OBJ primary punt returner=Jason Sehorn


or Antonio Brown

RE: RE: LOL RE: Harris  
Brown Recluse : 3/13/2017 9:37 am : link
In comment 13390962 TheMick7 said:
Quote:
In comment 13390954 area junc said:


Quote:


So put OBJ at PR, Vereen or someone else to catch touchbacks and ask one of your several WRs or DBs to play gunner. Not that big a deal.

Harris is a very good punt gunner, I'll give him that, but you don't pay $3M to a gunner.



OBJ primary punt returner=Jason Sehorn


That was 20 years ago. Here's a question for you.

Since then, how many starting WR's or CB's from other teams have suffered devastating injuries while doubling as a full-time returner?

Probably not many, if any at all.

Yeah, there was also that one time billions of years ago when that comet hit the Earth.
Lets hope  
Beer Man : 3/13/2017 9:38 am : link
they make space by signing JPP and cutting some of the players that are often injured or at the turning points of their career (Vereen, Harris, Thomas). I'd like to see as little restructuring as possible as the team will need the future cap space for some of the players who are nearing the end of their contracts. If it gets to the point that JPP and the team are too far apart, then let him walk and use that money on extending some of the key pieces (Pugh, Weston, OBJ); and maybe bringing bank Hank
Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
Go Terps : 3/13/2017 9:39 am : link
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
Several ways to get cap space  
sjnyfan : 3/13/2017 9:39 am : link
Player, 2017 cap number (cap savings) if cut:

JT Thomas $4 million ($3 million)
Shane Vereen $4,916,668 ($3.75 million)
Dwayne Harris $3.8 million ($1.4 million)

None of these players' value match their salary imo. I'd cut Casillas too if the going gets tough and/or depending on the draft. That would save another $3 million.

Getting JPP a long term deal would open up a ton of cash. Same for Pugh and considering the amount of money thrown at OL this past week it would be best to get that done sooner rather than later. Last but not least, Eli's contract leaves wiggle room for some restructuring. Most of all though, there aren't a lot of big deals left to give.
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
Beer Man : 3/13/2017 9:49 am : link
In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
How so? Vereen can't seem to stay healthy, so his contributions don't justify his salary. We all saw a significant decline in Harris' performance this past year. If the team can get someone who can return kicks/punts in the draft, my guess is Harris will be gone before opening day.
also extendign pugh  
ECham : 3/13/2017 9:52 am : link
should happen and that would create 3-4mm of room
Last year's big spenders figure to be this year's cap paupers.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/13/2017 9:54 am : link
Jenkins, Vernon and Harrison consume $41.6MM of 2017 cap space. Add a quality veteran QB ($19.7MM), a franchise-tagged DE ($16.9MM), a 2013 first-round pick playing on his fifth-year option ($8.8MM) and a playmaking veteran CB in the peak year of his contract ($9MM), and there isn't a lot left to play with after those seven.

Can't really complain - the Giants are just paying the price for filling glaring holes and retaining a few key vets. It's not as though they are carrying a lot of dead money into 2017. The total is around $3MM - mostly on Cruz and Jennings.
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
drkenneth : 3/13/2017 10:04 am : link
In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.


So 2nd team All Pro is "non-elite" in TerpLand?
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
Brown Recluse : 3/13/2017 10:06 am : link
In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.


Look, if it were me - I'd have either let JPP walk or tried to get a draft pick or two out of a trade for him. Doesn't look like that's going to happen though.

If there are cuts to be made otherwise, Harris and Vereen are the most obvious. Vereen is a good third down back (when he doesn't fumble or get hurt) but third down backs don't make over 3 million per season. It's just a bad allocation of $$$. The best back on this roster with the ball in his hands by a country mile is Paul Perkins and he has good hands. The offensive staff needs to do a better job getting the ball into them so that more things like this https://youtu.be/4gTXUyL5niE?t=8s. I expect a big leap forward from him this season.

The Giants can get by without Shane Vereen.
We all agree there is money available  
larryflower37 : 3/13/2017 10:24 am : link
If they need it through cuts, restructuring, and JPP.
But I don't see any reason to go down that road.
I think they are done in FA for now.
To cut and restructure players just to have it in the bank makes no sense and hurts down the road.
I hope they can make a deal with Vereen.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/13/2017 10:25 am : link
I'm sure they are trying. The likely formula would be to pay his roster bonus and guarantee a reduced salary (or some portion of it). I guess a restructure is possible, if he figures in the team's plans beyond 2017.

If the Giants threaten to cut him, the question for Vereen becomes whether he can get more cash elsewhere this year, and how much he thinks his value will rise or fall in the next year if he hits the market at 28 rather than 27 - ideally, with a healthy, productive year under his belt.
So What?  
Percy : 3/13/2017 10:29 am : link
We obtained three new good players who, assuming they work out, fill obvious running game and blocking needs and have locked up JPP. Seems we've spent the money wisely. What else is it for?
That we are NOT in cap trouble is the most important takeaway  
Big Blue '56 : 3/13/2017 10:31 am : link
from this stat. That is, aside from being able to create space as we need, we have been able to massively, MASSIVELY, upgrade our team(obviously more work to do) with OV, Jackrabbit, Snacks, Marshall, Ellison, hopefully Fluker to date the last two offseasons..Hopefully we bring back Robinson..Hankins of course, even on a one year deal for now(allowing us to see what we get in the draft)..

We have turned our team into solid contenders, imv, albeit more work to be done, an ongoing task in the NFL..And, we've avoided cap hell, whatever that is..😎
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
Danny Kanell : 3/13/2017 10:35 am : link
In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.


No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.

I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.

As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.
Yeah, agree on JPP with GT (no surprise),  
Big Blue '56 : 3/13/2017 10:43 am : link
but disagree about OV..However one wants to classify OV, he is presently among the best in the league. Period. And, still rather young(not in his prime yet?)..
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
djm : 3/13/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.


Not again....

We did the same thing from 2007-2011. How'd that work out?

Oh wait, never mind. Vernon and JPP aren't "elite" --whatever that the hell that means.
yeah  
djm : 3/13/2017 10:51 am : link
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.

That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.

Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
I still think a healthy Vereen is a very valuable cog in this offense.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2017 10:53 am : link
I'm not saying he was the difference between the 2015 offense and the 2016 offense but I think he was a bigger loss than people realize. He's been a really nice safety valve for Eli when he's been on the field.

I'd like to see him back.
RE: yeah  
Brown Recluse : 3/13/2017 11:02 am : link
In comment 13391085 djm said:
Quote:
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.

That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.

Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.


Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
The thing is  
JerryNYG : 3/13/2017 11:03 am : link
as others have mentioned, unless there is some other free agent signing to be made, there isn't too much that needs to happen to clear enough cap space to sign the draft class and leave wiggle room for mod-year meat off the street injury replacements.

Getting a deal done with JPP covers all that and then some. No reason to sweat over cutting Vereen or Harris in my view, because even if their cap hits are a little disproportionate to their contributions, they both still fill roles on this team and have value going forward.

If the team absolutely needed the cap space to make se improvement, that would be a different story.
I too believe Vereen should be retained, however they need  
Big Blue '56 : 3/13/2017 11:03 am : link
to accomplish that..

My concern sits with the two biceps surgeries..Did he come back too soon after the first one? Is he vulnerable to yet another tear? Otherwise, I'd love to keep him
RE: RE: yeah  
HomerJones45 : 3/13/2017 11:03 am : link
In comment 13391106 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13391085 djm said:


Quote:


we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.

That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.

Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.



Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
Management disagrees with you and is willing to pay $17 million this year to show what it thinks.
RE: RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
Go Terps : 3/13/2017 11:05 am : link
In comment 13391062 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:


Quote:


And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.



No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.

I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.

As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.


I like Vernon. I think he's a good player. Just not at that astronomical number.

This time last year everyone was saying that number would seem cheap this year. It doesn't.
An 11-5 team last season  
Chris684 : 3/13/2017 11:14 am : link
with a franchise QB and arguably the league's best defense is near the salary cap threshold?

Color me shocked.

There is flexibility if needed. What else is there to care about?
Where are they now?  
HomerJones45 : 3/13/2017 11:15 am : link
the "JPP has no leverage" and the "Giants have plenty of cap space to do what they want" people.
How in the world are we going  
Mr. Nickels : 3/13/2017 11:21 am : link
to re-sign Beckham if we are last in cap?

We have to get rid of Eli??
RE: I still think a healthy Vereen is a very valuable cog in this offense.  
Toth029 : 3/13/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13391089 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm not saying he was the difference between the 2015 offense and the 2016 offense but I think he was a bigger loss than people realize. He's been a really nice safety valve for Eli when he's been on the field.

I'd like to see him back.

I really think people here undervalue him. He's an excellent receiving back and can help in pass pro. I like Paul Perkins but he struggled to do both last year. Granted he can improve, but fact of the matter is, he isn't even close to that level Vereen is on.

Who else is there... Orleans Darkwa? We'll see what comes via the draft but Vereen is trusted upon by Eli and that's the most important thing. The injury and fumble thing is so overplayed it's ridiculous. Fact: he does not get injured often. Fact: he does not fumble often in his career. Why is this all of a sudden a common theme for Vereen in people's minds?

Harris did not go great in returns but he was so good in downing the ball and gunning. Yeah he is a bit overpaid so he is up for a restructure or paycut, but an outright cut unless he denies both of those.
RE: Where are they now?  
JerryNYG : 3/13/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13391128 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
the "JPP has no leverage" and the "Giants have plenty of cap space to do what they want" people.


Well, the Giants DID make three free agent signings that all look to be improvements to the team.

If they had more room, what else would they have done? Overpaid for a marginal talent at OL?

I guess my point is that if there were another signing worth making, the front office could easily clear cap space to make it, so the JPP deal is not preventing them from improving if there is a deal with value out there.
RE: RE: I still think a healthy Vereen is a very valuable cog in this offense.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2017 11:36 am : link
In comment 13391143 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 13391089 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I'm not saying he was the difference between the 2015 offense and the 2016 offense but I think he was a bigger loss than people realize. He's been a really nice safety valve for Eli when he's been on the field.

I'd like to see him back.


I really think people here undervalue him. He's an excellent receiving back and can help in pass pro. I like Paul Perkins but he struggled to do both last year. Granted he can improve, but fact of the matter is, he isn't even close to that level Vereen is on.

Who else is there... Orleans Darkwa? We'll see what comes via the draft but Vereen is trusted upon by Eli and that's the most important thing. The injury and fumble thing is so overplayed it's ridiculous. Fact: he does not get injured often. Fact: he does not fumble often in his career. Why is this all of a sudden a common theme for Vereen in people's minds?

Harris did not go great in returns but he was so good in downing the ball and gunning. Yeah he is a bit overpaid so he is up for a restructure or paycut, but an outright cut unless he denies both of those.


Yeah, I think people label him as a 3DRB and kind of minimize him based on that but he's one of the better pass catching backs in the league and our offense was really kind of missing that dimension last year. Jennings wasn't a great pass catching back and Perkins was still learning the ropes. Vereen tended to be on the field on a lot of our most important downs the year before.
RE: How in the world are we going  
giants#1 : 3/13/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13391135 Mr. Nickels said:
Quote:
to re-sign Beckham if we are last in cap?

We have to get rid of Eli??


We don't need to re-sign Beckham. He's under contract for 2017 and they'll be picking up his 2018 option in the next couple months.

And 2019 is the last year of Eli's deal, so we'll have plenty of cap space to maneuver around. Not to mention, other high priced players currently on the team will almost assuredly be gone by then (e.g. DRC).
RE: RE: yeah  
djm : 3/13/2017 1:02 pm : link
In comment 13391106 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13391085 djm said:


Quote:


we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.

That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.

Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.



Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.


I agree not one player on this D is the reason why it's elite. More often than not it's a collective. It was in 86 even with LT in his prime. It's never about one guy.

So....who are you replacing JPP with and for how much? We go over this all the time. In a perfect world, you let JPP walk and draft some perfect replacement or replacements and everyone lives happily ever after. I am on board! But just like you have to draw a line in the sand in regards to fiscal responsibility you have to balance that with spending on the known commodity. JPP is that. You can't easily replace JPP's production no matter what anyone here says. 4/3 DE is probably the most important defensive position and it's a talent pool that's pretty scarce. And what if Vernon then gets hurt and you were already thin at the new 4/3 spot? Then you're fucked.

I'm all for letting JPP walk if we could replace him adequately. I'm all for letting anyone go if that were the case. With this team? Why the hell would you want to let JPP go? Just so you can sleep bettet at night knowing the Giants have more cap space?
Cut the guys you need to cut already and  
est1986 : 3/13/2017 1:05 pm : link
Extend JPP and Pugh. But honestly who else is available that we 'have' to get?
11 guys on defense, Hankins is the 7th or 8th best  
est1986 : 3/13/2017 1:12 pm : link
How much you want to give him > how much he is worth to a team. This team has improved this offseason thus far even if they dont retain Hankins. Draft still remains. Could be our strongest roster in a long time IMO.
Look give Hakins a low 1st year deal contract  
MotownGIANTS : 3/13/2017 1:21 pm : link
and let it ballon in year 2 to balance out a bit ...

Leave JPP at the tag price and draft accordingly
Extend Pugh  
fkap : 3/13/2017 1:38 pm : link
only if it's a moderately priced deal which will escalate if he sticks for a few years. I don't think he's shown nearly enough to get a big deal. If he doesn't want a moderate deal, let him play on his current deal and let him risk injury or exposing himself as the slightly above mediocre player he is. there is no reason to give him a big deal at this time.

At this point, I think we're done in FA, and that may include not bringing back a couple of our own that we want back. We should not mortgage the future just to bring in mediocrity.
one thing you can always say about the Giants  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/13/2017 1:47 pm : link
when they have cap dollars they spend it
RE: RE: RE: yeah  
Brown Recluse : 3/13/2017 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13391347 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13391106 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


In comment 13391085 djm said:


Quote:


we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.

That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.

Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.



Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.



I agree not one player on this D is the reason why it's elite. More often than not it's a collective. It was in 86 even with LT in his prime. It's never about one guy.

So....who are you replacing JPP with and for how much? We go over this all the time. In a perfect world, you let JPP walk and draft some perfect replacement or replacements and everyone lives happily ever after. I am on board! But just like you have to draw a line in the sand in regards to fiscal responsibility you have to balance that with spending on the known commodity. JPP is that. You can't easily replace JPP's production no matter what anyone here says. 4/3 DE is probably the most important defensive position and it's a talent pool that's pretty scarce. And what if Vernon then gets hurt and you were already thin at the new 4/3 spot? Then you're fucked.

I'm all for letting JPP walk if we could replace him adequately. I'm all for letting anyone go if that were the case. With this team? Why the hell would you want to let JPP go? Just so you can sleep bettet at night knowing the Giants have more cap space?


To your first point, I don't feel I need to replace JPP's production. We had players in his spot while he wasn't there that, although they are not the player he is, held down the position. So in looking for his replacement, said player does not need to be on JPP's level as a player. Again, luxury - not a necessity.

The defense was dominant without him.

The first thing I would have done is try and trade him. He is a top player in the league at his position. The interest would be there. If that wasn't doable, I'd have just let him walk and used that money to improve other areas of the team. As far as his replacement - worst case scenario is that we go into the season with what we have, plus whoever is drafted. Again, same players that helped the defense continue dominance without JPP in the line up, plus one. We made it through the season with Erick Flowers, we can make it through the season without JPP.

Without JPP, you still have a dominant defense and you have money to improve other areas of the team as well. Giving you a better *team* overall.

At this point, according to hitdog and some of reports floating around the twitterverse, he is likely to end up on a one year deal anyway. And if he does play well this season, his price will only increase. Might as well stop the bleeding now.
They could free up another 5-7M when they get JPP inked...  
Slade : 3/13/2017 2:10 pm : link
But I wouldn't expect any other big ticket signings...
RE: RE  
santacruzom : 3/13/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13390949 area junc said:
Quote:
"they can extend Pugh"

I keep seeing this but why would Pugh agree to an extension right now? He's coming off a down year. Would not be smart unless it's Zeitler $$$ - and he needs a great year first. He is every bit the player Zeitler is - but he needs to stay healthy.


Can't they give him strict instructions not to explore the freev agent market?
And.. whatever money is freed up...  
Slade : 3/13/2017 3:05 pm : link
I would expect would go to Hank.. Who is seeing his price come down... by the minute.
RE: RE: RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse  
djm : 3/13/2017 3:10 pm : link
In comment 13391113 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13391062 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:


Quote:


And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.

The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.



No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.

I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.

As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.



I like Vernon. I think he's a good player. Just not at that astronomical number.

This time last year everyone was saying that number would seem cheap this year. It doesn't.


Speak for yourself. If needed i'd pay Vernon MORE if I had to do it again. Some slob OL or two or three that didn't even play last year just got approx 35 million guaranteed, if not more.

It looks cheap as fuck to me. You know what doesn't look cheap to me? Making the playoffs.
RE: An 11-5 team last season  
djm : 3/13/2017 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13391125 Chris684 said:
Quote:
with a franchise QB and arguably the league's best defense is near the salary cap threshold?

Color me shocked.

There is flexibility if needed. What else is there to care about?


You're wasting your time. Far too many fans go ape shit over cap issues. I get following the cap dynamics to some extent but the salary obsessions just ruin any objective and fair talk in my opinion. We spend hours on these threads talking about money. Not only is it overstated, it's pointless. It saps objectivity and turns fans into dorks. I fucking hate it. I wish salaries were kept private.
Brown recluse  
djm : 3/13/2017 3:16 pm : link
you're opinion of dominant is a lot different than mine. Do we count postseason games in this fantasy world of yours? Guess not because we got our fucking asses kicked in Green bay. JPP didn't play that game in case you forgot. Seems many have.

And what if JPP didn't play all of last year? Do they still dominate all season long? I think not.
RE: Brown recluse  
Brown Recluse : 3/13/2017 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13391620 djm said:
Quote:
you're opinion of dominant is a lot different than mine. Do we count postseason games in this fantasy world of yours? Guess not because we got our fucking asses kicked in Green bay. JPP didn't play that game in case you forgot. Seems many have.

And what if JPP didn't play all of last year? Do they still dominate all season long? I think not.


You don't think we had a dominant defense last year? The fact this defense was able to keep teams out of the end zone as often as it did, especially considering how putrid the offense was - speaks volumes. Sorry, thats dominating. Its a top defense. Its a championship defense.

And we didn't lose that game in Green Bay because JPP wasn't there. Its because our secondary was injured and our defense was gassed because the offense couldn't hold onto the ball.
YEs we had a great D  
djm : 3/13/2017 3:28 pm : link
and JPP was a part of that for 12 games! You're taking 4 games without JPP and making it sound like we don't need him anymore.

I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point? Teams can survive and even thrive when star players go down, doesn't mean they aren't important. I can't believe we are even debating this. If the season continued after GB the D would be of lesser quality because JPP wasn't there. Cracks were showing.

You can't form a concrete opinion based on 4-5 games with one of them being the shittiest loss of the year.
RE: YEs we had a great D  
Brown Recluse : 3/13/2017 3:41 pm : link
In comment 13391647 djm said:
Quote:
and JPP was a part of that for 12 games! You're taking 4 games without JPP and making it sound like we don't need him anymore.

I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point? Teams can survive and even thrive when star players go down, doesn't mean they aren't important. I can't believe we are even debating this. If the season continued after GB the D would be of lesser quality because JPP wasn't there. Cracks were showing.

You can't form a concrete opinion based on 4-5 games with one of them being the shittiest loss of the year.


Sure you can. The Giants played 4 winning teams in a row without JPP, entering the playoffs. They held two playoff teams to 7 and 6 points. They went 3-1. The defense actually had some of its best performances in 1st downs and yardage allowed. They also forced 9 turnovers. And this wasn't against scrub teams.

Am I saying the defense was better without JPP? Or that JPP doesn't make the defense better? Of course not. But it is still a great defense without him.

And I will reiterate, the "shittiest" loss of the year still would have been a loss if JPP was there.
RE: YEs we had a great D  
USAF NYG Fan : 3/13/2017 8:18 pm : link
In comment 13391647 djm said:
Quote:

I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point?


To be fair, if they didn't dominate with LT on the sidelines they would also have to face .... well .... LT on the sidelines.

I'm half joking btw. Not trying to hop into this debate. It's just the first thing I thought of. If I screwed up, would I want to face MacAdoo, Spags, and JPP or Parcells, Belichick, and Lawrence Taylor.
The defense was playing so well that losing him wasn't a big deal  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2017 8:27 pm : link
But I can't get on the side that they don't need him for the long haul. He was important to the team when they were NOT playing at that level. Defense got hot at the right time and they were able to overcome it.

The defense is going to have to carry this team again most likely, so thinking that you can go 16 games without him may be a big fallacy. He helped get them there. Nobody should expect that the defense is simply going to continue at that blazing hot pace at the start of a new season.

Also, they were incredibly healthy all year. That could very easily not happen in 2017.
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