@JordanRaanan 4m4 minutes ago
#Giants have plenty of available moves to create cap space. Cutting Vereen, Dwayne Harris (June 1), J.T. Thomas all $3M moves.
@JordanRaanan 3m3 minutes ago
Also extending JPP, moving $$$ around with Vernon, Jenkins, Harrison or Manning possible. So #Giants still have flexibility.
the cap would be bumped up prior top the start of this season. Maybe he will just have to put more lipstick on this offensive line (pig).
All jokes aside, you can expect that after the draft, we cut a few guys to make room. I know this was mentioned in another thread and may not be serious but is a prime example of what I am talking about. In the event that the Giants draft a guy like McCaffrey, Vereen can potentially be cut which frees up a lot of space. McCaffrey's rookie contract would not be as high as Vereen's deal.
They can easily free up several million by cutting guys who would be low impact losses (Thomas, Harris), or even slightly more impact (Vereen). Plus, they can extend Pugh to bring down his cap, work a deal out with JPP, restructure someone like Jenkins or Harrison...
They can make $ if needed. We won't see a big move, but probably a few more small moves to add depth, maybe bring back Robinson if cheap enough, and something at DT (either Hank, or a cheaper vet if priced out).
Cutting Vereen, Thomas, and Harris seem like easy solutions.
to lock in Keenan Robinson. He is huge for this defense...I think even more important than Hankins at this point. He ability to be a 3rd down coverage lineabacker in a passing league was huge last year.
I keep seeing this but why would Pugh agree to an extension right now? He's coming off a down year. Would not be smart unless it's Zeitler $$$ - and he needs a great year first. He is every bit the player Zeitler is - but he needs to stay healthy.
RE: RE: What was our starting number? Like 35 under?
You replace Harris , you need a kick returner, punt returner and ST player - he has the value of 3 players. You dont get rid of him that easily.
Thomas is here until Robinson is signed.
JPP deal will get done & I think Pugh will as well
They want a player they will find a way to get that player
Harris doesn't kick return and wasn't even the punt returner at the end of the year (more OBJ). He basically is a gunner and a blocker WR at this point. He needs to take a pay cut...he doesn't do half the things we were paying him to do in anymore.
they make space by signing JPP and cutting some of the players that are often injured or at the turning points of their career (Vereen, Harris, Thomas). I'd like to see as little restructuring as possible as the team will need the future cap space for some of the players who are nearing the end of their contracts. If it gets to the point that JPP and the team are too far apart, then let him walk and use that money on extending some of the key pieces (Pugh, Weston, OBJ); and maybe bringing bank Hank
JT Thomas $4 million ($3 million)
Shane Vereen $4,916,668 ($3.75 million)
Dwayne Harris $3.8 million ($1.4 million)
None of these players' value match their salary imo. I'd cut Casillas too if the going gets tough and/or depending on the draft. That would save another $3 million.
Getting JPP a long term deal would open up a ton of cash. Same for Pugh and considering the amount of money thrown at OL this past week it would be best to get that done sooner rather than later. Last but not least, Eli's contract leaves wiggle room for some restructuring. Most of all though, there aren't a lot of big deals left to give.
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
How so? Vereen can't seem to stay healthy, so his contributions don't justify his salary. We all saw a significant decline in Harris' performance this past year. If the team can get someone who can return kicks/punts in the draft, my guess is Harris will be gone before opening day.
Jenkins, Vernon and Harrison consume $41.6MM of 2017 cap space. Add a quality veteran QB ($19.7MM), a franchise-tagged DE ($16.9MM), a 2013 first-round pick playing on his fifth-year option ($8.8MM) and a playmaking veteran CB in the peak year of his contract ($9MM), and there isn't a lot left to play with after those seven.
Can't really complain - the Giants are just paying the price for filling glaring holes and retaining a few key vets. It's not as though they are carrying a lot of dead money into 2017. The total is around $3MM - mostly on Cruz and Jennings.
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
Look, if it were me - I'd have either let JPP walk or tried to get a draft pick or two out of a trade for him. Doesn't look like that's going to happen though.
If there are cuts to be made otherwise, Harris and Vereen are the most obvious. Vereen is a good third down back (when he doesn't fumble or get hurt) but third down backs don't make over 3 million per season. It's just a bad allocation of $$$. The best back on this roster with the ball in his hands by a country mile is Paul Perkins and he has good hands. The offensive staff needs to do a better job getting the ball into them so that more things like this https://youtu.be/4gTXUyL5niE?t=8s. I expect a big leap forward from him this season.
If they need it through cuts, restructuring, and JPP.
But I don't see any reason to go down that road.
I think they are done in FA for now.
To cut and restructure players just to have it in the bank makes no sense and hurts down the road.
I'm sure they are trying. The likely formula would be to pay his roster bonus and guarantee a reduced salary (or some portion of it). I guess a restructure is possible, if he figures in the team's plans beyond 2017.
If the Giants threaten to cut him, the question for Vereen becomes whether he can get more cash elsewhere this year, and how much he thinks his value will rise or fall in the next year if he hits the market at 28 rather than 27 - ideally, with a healthy, productive year under his belt.
We obtained three new good players who, assuming they work out, fill obvious running game and blocking needs and have locked up JPP. Seems we've spent the money wisely. What else is it for?
That we are NOT in cap trouble is the most important takeaway
from this stat. That is, aside from being able to create space as we need, we have been able to massively, MASSIVELY, upgrade our team(obviously more work to do) with OV, Jackrabbit, Snacks, Marshall, Ellison, hopefully Fluker to date the last two offseasons..Hopefully we bring back Robinson..Hankins of course, even on a one year deal for now(allowing us to see what we get in the draft)..
We have turned our team into solid contenders, imv, albeit more work to be done, an ongoing task in the NFL..And, we've avoided cap hell, whatever that is..😎
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.
I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.
As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.
but disagree about OV..However one wants to classify OV, he is presently among the best in the league. Period. And, still rather young(not in his prime yet?)..
RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
I still think a healthy Vereen is a very valuable cog in this offense.
I'm not saying he was the difference between the 2015 offense and the 2016 offense but I think he was a bigger loss than people realize. He's been a really nice safety valve for Eli when he's been on the field.
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
as others have mentioned, unless there is some other free agent signing to be made, there isn't too much that needs to happen to clear enough cap space to sign the draft class and leave wiggle room for mod-year meat off the street injury replacements.
Getting a deal done with JPP covers all that and then some. No reason to sweat over cutting Vereen or Harris in my view, because even if their cap hits are a little disproportionate to their contributions, they both still fill roles on this team and have value going forward.
If the team absolutely needed the cap space to make se improvement, that would be a different story.
I too believe Vereen should be retained, however they need
My concern sits with the two biceps surgeries..Did he come back too soon after the first one? Is he vulnerable to yet another tear? Otherwise, I'd love to keep him
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
Management disagrees with you and is willing to pay $17 million this year to show what it thinks.
RE: RE: Cutting Vereen and Harris makes this team worse
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.
I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.
As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.
I like Vernon. I think he's a good player. Just not at that astronomical number.
This time last year everyone was saying that number would seem cheap this year. It doesn't.
I'm not saying he was the difference between the 2015 offense and the 2016 offense but I think he was a bigger loss than people realize. He's been a really nice safety valve for Eli when he's been on the field.
I'd like to see him back.
I really think people here undervalue him. He's an excellent receiving back and can help in pass pro. I like Paul Perkins but he struggled to do both last year. Granted he can improve, but fact of the matter is, he isn't even close to that level Vereen is on.
Who else is there... Orleans Darkwa? We'll see what comes via the draft but Vereen is trusted upon by Eli and that's the most important thing. The injury and fumble thing is so overplayed it's ridiculous. Fact: he does not get injured often. Fact: he does not fumble often in his career. Why is this all of a sudden a common theme for Vereen in people's minds?
Harris did not go great in returns but he was so good in downing the ball and gunning. Yeah he is a bit overpaid so he is up for a restructure or paycut, but an outright cut unless he denies both of those.
the "JPP has no leverage" and the "Giants have plenty of cap space to do what they want" people.
Well, the Giants DID make three free agent signings that all look to be improvements to the team.
If they had more room, what else would they have done? Overpaid for a marginal talent at OL?
I guess my point is that if there were another signing worth making, the front office could easily clear cap space to make it, so the JPP deal is not preventing them from improving if there is a deal with value out there.
Counting the signing of D.J. Fluker, nobody currently has less salary cap space than #Giants. They have approximately $5M available vs. cap
2. They have plans for cuts and restructures that they have not pulled the trigger on yet as they wait to see what happens with JPP
I don't think they will be restricted from signing or resigning anyone, if they deem it a priority, based on the cap figure as it stands today.
@JordanRaanan 4m4 minutes ago
#Giants have plenty of available moves to create cap space. Cutting Vereen, Dwayne Harris (June 1), J.T. Thomas all $3M moves.
@JordanRaanan 3m3 minutes ago
Also extending JPP, moving $$$ around with Vernon, Jenkins, Harrison or Manning possible. So #Giants still have flexibility.
All jokes aside, you can expect that after the draft, we cut a few guys to make room. I know this was mentioned in another thread and may not be serious but is a prime example of what I am talking about. In the event that the Giants draft a guy like McCaffrey, Vereen can potentially be cut which frees up a lot of space. McCaffrey's rookie contract would not be as high as Vereen's deal.
They can make $ if needed. We won't see a big move, but probably a few more small moves to add depth, maybe bring back Robinson if cheap enough, and something at DT (either Hank, or a cheaper vet if priced out).
+1
Marshall 6
Fluker 3
Ellison I think his hit this year is roughly 1 million?
If so we used 27 of the 35 million, no? Unless we started with less than 35?
Marshall 6
Fluker 3
Ellison I think his hit this year is roughly 1 million?
If so we used 27 of the 35 million, no? Unless we started with less than 35?
Ellison's hit is 2.5. Plus they also gave Darkwa some $750,000
I keep seeing this but why would Pugh agree to an extension right now? He's coming off a down year. Would not be smart unless it's Zeitler $$$ - and he needs a great year first. He is every bit the player Zeitler is - but he needs to stay healthy.
Quote:
JPP 17
Marshall 6
Fluker 3
Ellison I think his hit this year is roughly 1 million?
If so we used 27 of the 35 million, no? Unless we started with less than 35?
Ellison's hit is 2.5. Plus they also gave Darkwa some $750,000
There's the difference. Thanks.
Thomas is here until Robinson is signed.
JPP deal will get done & I think Pugh will as well
They want a player they will find a way to get that player
Harris is a very good punt gunner, I'll give him that, but you don't pay $3M to a gunner.
Thomas is here until Robinson is signed.
JPP deal will get done & I think Pugh will as well
They want a player they will find a way to get that player
Harris doesn't kick return and wasn't even the punt returner at the end of the year (more OBJ). He basically is a gunner and a blocker WR at this point. He needs to take a pay cut...he doesn't do half the things we were paying him to do in anymore.
Harris is a very good punt gunner, I'll give him that, but you don't pay $3M to a gunner.
OBJ primary punt returner=Jason Sehorn
Quote:
So put OBJ at PR, Vereen or someone else to catch touchbacks and ask one of your several WRs or DBs to play gunner. Not that big a deal.
Harris is a very good punt gunner, I'll give him that, but you don't pay $3M to a gunner.
OBJ primary punt returner=Jason Sehorn
or Antonio Brown
Quote:
So put OBJ at PR, Vereen or someone else to catch touchbacks and ask one of your several WRs or DBs to play gunner. Not that big a deal.
Harris is a very good punt gunner, I'll give him that, but you don't pay $3M to a gunner.
OBJ primary punt returner=Jason Sehorn
That was 20 years ago. Here's a question for you.
Since then, how many starting WR's or CB's from other teams have suffered devastating injuries while doubling as a full-time returner?
Probably not many, if any at all.
Yeah, there was also that one time billions of years ago when that comet hit the Earth.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
JT Thomas $4 million ($3 million)
Shane Vereen $4,916,668 ($3.75 million)
Dwayne Harris $3.8 million ($1.4 million)
None of these players' value match their salary imo. I'd cut Casillas too if the going gets tough and/or depending on the draft. That would save another $3 million.
Getting JPP a long term deal would open up a ton of cash. Same for Pugh and considering the amount of money thrown at OL this past week it would be best to get that done sooner rather than later. Last but not least, Eli's contract leaves wiggle room for some restructuring. Most of all though, there aren't a lot of big deals left to give.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
Can't really complain - the Giants are just paying the price for filling glaring holes and retaining a few key vets. It's not as though they are carrying a lot of dead money into 2017. The total is around $3MM - mostly on Cruz and Jennings.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
So 2nd team All Pro is "non-elite" in TerpLand?
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
Look, if it were me - I'd have either let JPP walk or tried to get a draft pick or two out of a trade for him. Doesn't look like that's going to happen though.
If there are cuts to be made otherwise, Harris and Vereen are the most obvious. Vereen is a good third down back (when he doesn't fumble or get hurt) but third down backs don't make over 3 million per season. It's just a bad allocation of $$$. The best back on this roster with the ball in his hands by a country mile is Paul Perkins and he has good hands. The offensive staff needs to do a better job getting the ball into them so that more things like this https://youtu.be/4gTXUyL5niE?t=8s. I expect a big leap forward from him this season.
The Giants can get by without Shane Vereen.
But I don't see any reason to go down that road.
I think they are done in FA for now.
To cut and restructure players just to have it in the bank makes no sense and hurts down the road.
If the Giants threaten to cut him, the question for Vereen becomes whether he can get more cash elsewhere this year, and how much he thinks his value will rise or fall in the next year if he hits the market at 28 rather than 27 - ideally, with a healthy, productive year under his belt.
We have turned our team into solid contenders, imv, albeit more work to be done, an ongoing task in the NFL..And, we've avoided cap hell, whatever that is..😎
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.
I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.
As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
Not again....
We did the same thing from 2007-2011. How'd that work out?
Oh wait, never mind. Vernon and JPP aren't "elite" --whatever that the hell that means.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
I'd like to see him back.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
Getting a deal done with JPP covers all that and then some. No reason to sweat over cutting Vereen or Harris in my view, because even if their cap hits are a little disproportionate to their contributions, they both still fill roles on this team and have value going forward.
If the team absolutely needed the cap space to make se improvement, that would be a different story.
My concern sits with the two biceps surgeries..Did he come back too soon after the first one? Is he vulnerable to yet another tear? Otherwise, I'd love to keep him
Quote:
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
Quote:
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.
I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.
As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.
I like Vernon. I think he's a good player. Just not at that astronomical number.
This time last year everyone was saying that number would seem cheap this year. It doesn't.
Color me shocked.
There is flexibility if needed. What else is there to care about?
We have to get rid of Eli??
I'd like to see him back.
I really think people here undervalue him. He's an excellent receiving back and can help in pass pro. I like Paul Perkins but he struggled to do both last year. Granted he can improve, but fact of the matter is, he isn't even close to that level Vereen is on.
Who else is there... Orleans Darkwa? We'll see what comes via the draft but Vereen is trusted upon by Eli and that's the most important thing. The injury and fumble thing is so overplayed it's ridiculous. Fact: he does not get injured often. Fact: he does not fumble often in his career. Why is this all of a sudden a common theme for Vereen in people's minds?
Harris did not go great in returns but he was so good in downing the ball and gunning. Yeah he is a bit overpaid so he is up for a restructure or paycut, but an outright cut unless he denies both of those.
Well, the Giants DID make three free agent signings that all look to be improvements to the team.
If they had more room, what else would they have done? Overpaid for a marginal talent at OL?
I guess my point is that if there were another signing worth making, the front office could easily clear cap space to make it, so the JPP deal is not preventing them from improving if there is a deal with value out there.