I'm not saying he was the difference between the 2015 offense and the 2016 offense but I think he was a bigger loss than people realize. He's been a really nice safety valve for Eli when he's been on the field.
I'd like to see him back.
I really think people here undervalue him. He's an excellent receiving back and can help in pass pro. I like Paul Perkins but he struggled to do both last year. Granted he can improve, but fact of the matter is, he isn't even close to that level Vereen is on.
Who else is there... Orleans Darkwa? We'll see what comes via the draft but Vereen is trusted upon by Eli and that's the most important thing. The injury and fumble thing is so overplayed it's ridiculous. Fact: he does not get injured often. Fact: he does not fumble often in his career. Why is this all of a sudden a common theme for Vereen in people's minds?
Harris did not go great in returns but he was so good in downing the ball and gunning. Yeah he is a bit overpaid so he is up for a restructure or paycut, but an outright cut unless he denies both of those.
Yeah, I think people label him as a 3DRB and kind of minimize him based on that but he's one of the better pass catching backs in the league and our offense was really kind of missing that dimension last year. Jennings wasn't a great pass catching back and Perkins was still learning the ropes. Vereen tended to be on the field on a lot of our most important downs the year before.
We don't need to re-sign Beckham. He's under contract for 2017 and they'll be picking up his 2018 option in the next couple months.
And 2019 is the last year of Eli's deal, so we'll have plenty of cap space to maneuver around. Not to mention, other high priced players currently on the team will almost assuredly be gone by then (e.g. DRC).
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
I agree not one player on this D is the reason why it's elite. More often than not it's a collective. It was in 86 even with LT in his prime. It's never about one guy.
So....who are you replacing JPP with and for how much? We go over this all the time. In a perfect world, you let JPP walk and draft some perfect replacement or replacements and everyone lives happily ever after. I am on board! But just like you have to draw a line in the sand in regards to fiscal responsibility you have to balance that with spending on the known commodity. JPP is that. You can't easily replace JPP's production no matter what anyone here says. 4/3 DE is probably the most important defensive position and it's a talent pool that's pretty scarce. And what if Vernon then gets hurt and you were already thin at the new 4/3 spot? Then you're fucked.
I'm all for letting JPP walk if we could replace him adequately. I'm all for letting anyone go if that were the case. With this team? Why the hell would you want to let JPP go? Just so you can sleep bettet at night knowing the Giants have more cap space?
How much you want to give him > how much he is worth to a team. This team has improved this offseason thus far even if they dont retain Hankins. Draft still remains. Could be our strongest roster in a long time IMO.
only if it's a moderately priced deal which will escalate if he sticks for a few years. I don't think he's shown nearly enough to get a big deal. If he doesn't want a moderate deal, let him play on his current deal and let him risk injury or exposing himself as the slightly above mediocre player he is. there is no reason to give him a big deal at this time.
At this point, I think we're done in FA, and that may include not bringing back a couple of our own that we want back. We should not mortgage the future just to bring in mediocrity.
we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
I agree not one player on this D is the reason why it's elite. More often than not it's a collective. It was in 86 even with LT in his prime. It's never about one guy.
So....who are you replacing JPP with and for how much? We go over this all the time. In a perfect world, you let JPP walk and draft some perfect replacement or replacements and everyone lives happily ever after. I am on board! But just like you have to draw a line in the sand in regards to fiscal responsibility you have to balance that with spending on the known commodity. JPP is that. You can't easily replace JPP's production no matter what anyone here says. 4/3 DE is probably the most important defensive position and it's a talent pool that's pretty scarce. And what if Vernon then gets hurt and you were already thin at the new 4/3 spot? Then you're fucked.
I'm all for letting JPP walk if we could replace him adequately. I'm all for letting anyone go if that were the case. With this team? Why the hell would you want to let JPP go? Just so you can sleep bettet at night knowing the Giants have more cap space?
To your first point, I don't feel I need to replace JPP's production. We had players in his spot while he wasn't there that, although they are not the player he is, held down the position. So in looking for his replacement, said player does not need to be on JPP's level as a player. Again, luxury - not a necessity.
The defense was dominant without him.
The first thing I would have done is try and trade him. He is a top player in the league at his position. The interest would be there. If that wasn't doable, I'd have just let him walk and used that money to improve other areas of the team. As far as his replacement - worst case scenario is that we go into the season with what we have, plus whoever is drafted. Again, same players that helped the defense continue dominance without JPP in the line up, plus one. We made it through the season with Erick Flowers, we can make it through the season without JPP.
Without JPP, you still have a dominant defense and you have money to improve other areas of the team as well. Giving you a better *team* overall.
At this point, according to hitdog and some of reports floating around the twitterverse, he is likely to end up on a one year deal anyway. And if he does play well this season, his price will only increase. Might as well stop the bleeding now.
They could free up another 5-7M when they get JPP inked...
I keep seeing this but why would Pugh agree to an extension right now? He's coming off a down year. Would not be smart unless it's Zeitler $$$ - and he needs a great year first. He is every bit the player Zeitler is - but he needs to stay healthy.
Can't they give him strict instructions not to explore the freev agent market?
And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.
I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.
As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.
I like Vernon. I think he's a good player. Just not at that astronomical number.
This time last year everyone was saying that number would seem cheap this year. It doesn't.
Speak for yourself. If needed i'd pay Vernon MORE if I had to do it again. Some slob OL or two or three that didn't even play last year just got approx 35 million guaranteed, if not more.
It looks cheap as fuck to me. You know what doesn't look cheap to me? Making the playoffs.
with a franchise QB and arguably the league's best defense is near the salary cap threshold?
Color me shocked.
There is flexibility if needed. What else is there to care about?
You're wasting your time. Far too many fans go ape shit over cap issues. I get following the cap dynamics to some extent but the salary obsessions just ruin any objective and fair talk in my opinion. We spend hours on these threads talking about money. Not only is it overstated, it's pointless. It saps objectivity and turns fans into dorks. I fucking hate it. I wish salaries were kept private.
you're opinion of dominant is a lot different than mine. Do we count postseason games in this fantasy world of yours? Guess not because we got our fucking asses kicked in Green bay. JPP didn't play that game in case you forgot. Seems many have.
And what if JPP didn't play all of last year? Do they still dominate all season long? I think not.
you're opinion of dominant is a lot different than mine. Do we count postseason games in this fantasy world of yours? Guess not because we got our fucking asses kicked in Green bay. JPP didn't play that game in case you forgot. Seems many have.
And what if JPP didn't play all of last year? Do they still dominate all season long? I think not.
You don't think we had a dominant defense last year? The fact this defense was able to keep teams out of the end zone as often as it did, especially considering how putrid the offense was - speaks volumes. Sorry, thats dominating. Its a top defense. Its a championship defense.
And we didn't lose that game in Green Bay because JPP wasn't there. Its because our secondary was injured and our defense was gassed because the offense couldn't hold onto the ball.
and JPP was a part of that for 12 games! You're taking 4 games without JPP and making it sound like we don't need him anymore.
I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point? Teams can survive and even thrive when star players go down, doesn't mean they aren't important. I can't believe we are even debating this. If the season continued after GB the D would be of lesser quality because JPP wasn't there. Cracks were showing.
You can't form a concrete opinion based on 4-5 games with one of them being the shittiest loss of the year.
and JPP was a part of that for 12 games! You're taking 4 games without JPP and making it sound like we don't need him anymore.
I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point? Teams can survive and even thrive when star players go down, doesn't mean they aren't important. I can't believe we are even debating this. If the season continued after GB the D would be of lesser quality because JPP wasn't there. Cracks were showing.
You can't form a concrete opinion based on 4-5 games with one of them being the shittiest loss of the year.
Sure you can. The Giants played 4 winning teams in a row without JPP, entering the playoffs. They held two playoff teams to 7 and 6 points. They went 3-1. The defense actually had some of its best performances in 1st downs and yardage allowed. They also forced 9 turnovers. And this wasn't against scrub teams.
Am I saying the defense was better without JPP? Or that JPP doesn't make the defense better? Of course not. But it is still a great defense without him.
And I will reiterate, the "shittiest" loss of the year still would have been a loss if JPP was there.
I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point?
To be fair, if they didn't dominate with LT on the sidelines they would also have to face .... well .... LT on the sidelines.
I'm half joking btw. Not trying to hop into this debate. It's just the first thing I thought of. If I screwed up, would I want to face MacAdoo, Spags, and JPP or Parcells, Belichick, and Lawrence Taylor.
The defense was playing so well that losing him wasn't a big deal
But I can't get on the side that they don't need him for the long haul. He was important to the team when they were NOT playing at that level. Defense got hot at the right time and they were able to overcome it.
The defense is going to have to carry this team again most likely, so thinking that you can go 16 games without him may be a big fallacy. He helped get them there. Nobody should expect that the defense is simply going to continue at that blazing hot pace at the start of a new season.
Also, they were incredibly healthy all year. That could very easily not happen in 2017.
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I'm not saying he was the difference between the 2015 offense and the 2016 offense but I think he was a bigger loss than people realize. He's been a really nice safety valve for Eli when he's been on the field.
I'd like to see him back.
I really think people here undervalue him. He's an excellent receiving back and can help in pass pro. I like Paul Perkins but he struggled to do both last year. Granted he can improve, but fact of the matter is, he isn't even close to that level Vereen is on.
Who else is there... Orleans Darkwa? We'll see what comes via the draft but Vereen is trusted upon by Eli and that's the most important thing. The injury and fumble thing is so overplayed it's ridiculous. Fact: he does not get injured often. Fact: he does not fumble often in his career. Why is this all of a sudden a common theme for Vereen in people's minds?
Harris did not go great in returns but he was so good in downing the ball and gunning. Yeah he is a bit overpaid so he is up for a restructure or paycut, but an outright cut unless he denies both of those.
Yeah, I think people label him as a 3DRB and kind of minimize him based on that but he's one of the better pass catching backs in the league and our offense was really kind of missing that dimension last year. Jennings wasn't a great pass catching back and Perkins was still learning the ropes. Vereen tended to be on the field on a lot of our most important downs the year before.
We have to get rid of Eli??
We don't need to re-sign Beckham. He's under contract for 2017 and they'll be picking up his 2018 option in the next couple months.
And 2019 is the last year of Eli's deal, so we'll have plenty of cap space to maneuver around. Not to mention, other high priced players currently on the team will almost assuredly be gone by then (e.g. DRC).
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we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
I agree not one player on this D is the reason why it's elite. More often than not it's a collective. It was in 86 even with LT in his prime. It's never about one guy.
So....who are you replacing JPP with and for how much? We go over this all the time. In a perfect world, you let JPP walk and draft some perfect replacement or replacements and everyone lives happily ever after. I am on board! But just like you have to draw a line in the sand in regards to fiscal responsibility you have to balance that with spending on the known commodity. JPP is that. You can't easily replace JPP's production no matter what anyone here says. 4/3 DE is probably the most important defensive position and it's a talent pool that's pretty scarce. And what if Vernon then gets hurt and you were already thin at the new 4/3 spot? Then you're fucked.
I'm all for letting JPP walk if we could replace him adequately. I'm all for letting anyone go if that were the case. With this team? Why the hell would you want to let JPP go? Just so you can sleep bettet at night knowing the Giants have more cap space?
Leave JPP at the tag price and draft accordingly
At this point, I think we're done in FA, and that may include not bringing back a couple of our own that we want back. We should not mortgage the future just to bring in mediocrity.
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In comment 13391085 djm said:
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we should have never signed Vernon, let JPP walk, signed some pretty good DE last off-season, if lucky because who knows if that average DE even comes here, and signed ANOTHER CB this off-season whose name escapes me at this moment.
That defense would fucking suck terps. I've seen that defense. So has every fan in Buffalo about 5 years ago. They sucked. And so would this one. The only player worth shit upfront would be Snacks and he'd be triple teamed because every other DL member is a JAG. No pass rush. No one on one winners upfront. Just fairly paid jags all making one play for every 2 times they get washed out.
Don't tell me about any contingency plan that involves signing this LB and that LB. It's nonsense.
Except for the fact that the defense played well without JPP. Point being, you don't *need* JPP in order to make this defense successful. Great luxury but not a necessity.
I agree not one player on this D is the reason why it's elite. More often than not it's a collective. It was in 86 even with LT in his prime. It's never about one guy.
So....who are you replacing JPP with and for how much? We go over this all the time. In a perfect world, you let JPP walk and draft some perfect replacement or replacements and everyone lives happily ever after. I am on board! But just like you have to draw a line in the sand in regards to fiscal responsibility you have to balance that with spending on the known commodity. JPP is that. You can't easily replace JPP's production no matter what anyone here says. 4/3 DE is probably the most important defensive position and it's a talent pool that's pretty scarce. And what if Vernon then gets hurt and you were already thin at the new 4/3 spot? Then you're fucked.
I'm all for letting JPP walk if we could replace him adequately. I'm all for letting anyone go if that were the case. With this team? Why the hell would you want to let JPP go? Just so you can sleep bettet at night knowing the Giants have more cap space?
To your first point, I don't feel I need to replace JPP's production. We had players in his spot while he wasn't there that, although they are not the player he is, held down the position. So in looking for his replacement, said player does not need to be on JPP's level as a player. Again, luxury - not a necessity.
The defense was dominant without him.
The first thing I would have done is try and trade him. He is a top player in the league at his position. The interest would be there. If that wasn't doable, I'd have just let him walk and used that money to improve other areas of the team. As far as his replacement - worst case scenario is that we go into the season with what we have, plus whoever is drafted. Again, same players that helped the defense continue dominance without JPP in the line up, plus one. We made it through the season with Erick Flowers, we can make it through the season without JPP.
Without JPP, you still have a dominant defense and you have money to improve other areas of the team as well. Giving you a better *team* overall.
At this point, according to hitdog and some of reports floating around the twitterverse, he is likely to end up on a one year deal anyway. And if he does play well this season, his price will only increase. Might as well stop the bleeding now.
I keep seeing this but why would Pugh agree to an extension right now? He's coming off a down year. Would not be smart unless it's Zeitler $$$ - and he needs a great year first. He is every bit the player Zeitler is - but he needs to stay healthy.
Can't they give him strict instructions not to explore the freev agent market?
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In comment 13390972 Go Terps said:
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And besides when we're talking about the cap they aren't the problem.
The problem is that we are using over 1/6 of the entire cap (!!!) on two non-elite defensive ends.
No one said they're the problem. We're saying they aren't worth their cap hits for several reasons. Vereen can't stay healthy and he is coming off 2 torn tricep injuries. Harris hasn't been healthy either and his only value is at gunner right now, which is obviously important, but the argument is if a gunner worth over $3M next season.
I'm with you on JPP. It's really holding us back but even if it wasn't, i'm still not sure Vereen and Harris are worth their cap hits. Especially Vereen.
As far as Vernon, we all know you were against it last year and with all due respect, unless he has 3 straight first team all pro seasons, you're going to take shots at that contract until he's an ex Giant. You were wrong on that one but you'll never admit it. We know you long enough to know that's what to expect.
I like Vernon. I think he's a good player. Just not at that astronomical number.
This time last year everyone was saying that number would seem cheap this year. It doesn't.
Speak for yourself. If needed i'd pay Vernon MORE if I had to do it again. Some slob OL or two or three that didn't even play last year just got approx 35 million guaranteed, if not more.
It looks cheap as fuck to me. You know what doesn't look cheap to me? Making the playoffs.
Color me shocked.
There is flexibility if needed. What else is there to care about?
You're wasting your time. Far too many fans go ape shit over cap issues. I get following the cap dynamics to some extent but the salary obsessions just ruin any objective and fair talk in my opinion. We spend hours on these threads talking about money. Not only is it overstated, it's pointless. It saps objectivity and turns fans into dorks. I fucking hate it. I wish salaries were kept private.
And what if JPP didn't play all of last year? Do they still dominate all season long? I think not.
And what if JPP didn't play all of last year? Do they still dominate all season long? I think not.
You don't think we had a dominant defense last year? The fact this defense was able to keep teams out of the end zone as often as it did, especially considering how putrid the offense was - speaks volumes. Sorry, thats dominating. Its a top defense. Its a championship defense.
And we didn't lose that game in Green Bay because JPP wasn't there. Its because our secondary was injured and our defense was gassed because the offense couldn't hold onto the ball.
I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point? Teams can survive and even thrive when star players go down, doesn't mean they aren't important. I can't believe we are even debating this. If the season continued after GB the D would be of lesser quality because JPP wasn't there. Cracks were showing.
You can't form a concrete opinion based on 4-5 games with one of them being the shittiest loss of the year.
I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point? Teams can survive and even thrive when star players go down, doesn't mean they aren't important. I can't believe we are even debating this. If the season continued after GB the D would be of lesser quality because JPP wasn't there. Cracks were showing.
You can't form a concrete opinion based on 4-5 games with one of them being the shittiest loss of the year.
Sure you can. The Giants played 4 winning teams in a row without JPP, entering the playoffs. They held two playoff teams to 7 and 6 points. They went 3-1. The defense actually had some of its best performances in 1st downs and yardage allowed. They also forced 9 turnovers. And this wasn't against scrub teams.
Am I saying the defense was better without JPP? Or that JPP doesn't make the defense better? Of course not. But it is still a great defense without him.
And I will reiterate, the "shittiest" loss of the year still would have been a loss if JPP was there.
I saw the Giants D dominate when LT was on the sidelines. Get my point?
To be fair, if they didn't dominate with LT on the sidelines they would also have to face .... well .... LT on the sidelines.
I'm half joking btw. Not trying to hop into this debate. It's just the first thing I thought of. If I screwed up, would I want to face MacAdoo, Spags, and JPP or Parcells, Belichick, and Lawrence Taylor.
The defense is going to have to carry this team again most likely, so thinking that you can go 16 games without him may be a big fallacy. He helped get them there. Nobody should expect that the defense is simply going to continue at that blazing hot pace at the start of a new season.
Also, they were incredibly healthy all year. That could very easily not happen in 2017.