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Moving Pugh To LT

the coffee man : 3/13/2017 11:13 am
I am new to the forum so I thought I'd introduce myself with a post and take my first hazing!


It has become obvious that there will not be a LT being signed by the Giants or that they will draft one who can play day one.

With limited time left in Eli's career it seems impossible to throw all the dice on Flowers. The Giants cannot win a SB with flowers playing like last year.

Flowers may improve and his future may lay at LT. But what about for this year moving Pugh to LT, where he is tons better then flowers and moving Flowers to RT. Let Fluker and Hart battle out for guards spots.

In the draft, target a TE, and a guard. Just imagine the giants in a set with two tes, Marshall and ODB with the threat of a run game. Flowers would help strengthen the run on the right while Pugh solidifies Eli's blind spot.

In a few years, Flowers will be 24, and can easily go back to LT when hes ready, as was the initial plan before Beatty injury.

I just dont think we can throw all the dice on flowers at LT yet. The Giants had the worst combination of ots in football last year in essence. There may have been others worse but for all intensive purposes at that level you might as well be the worst. Even if Pugh is an average LT, thats enough of an upgrade.

Thoughts and hello BBI!
Pugh would  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/13/2017 11:21 am : link
be a relative unknown at LT. He held his own as a RT. However, if you put Pugh at LT, then you have to pay him LT money in next years negotiations.
Many felt Pugh was one of the better guards in the league  
joeinpa : 3/13/2017 11:23 am : link
this season...........don't think it is even a consideration baring injuries.
Does not compute  
JonC : 3/13/2017 11:24 am : link
Pugh had his crack at RT and was deemed not good enough. His spot duty at LT seemed to prove the same. Coaches see him every day for a few years, they know what he is and isn't. Right now, he's pushing for All Pro at LG, it makes sense to leave him there.

Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.
Pugh is not a LT  
Chip : 3/13/2017 11:25 am : link
When he played there he struggled. He is not the answer. He is also on the smallish side for an OL.
RE: Does not compute  
Old Dirty Beckham : 3/13/2017 11:30 am : link
In comment 13391142 JonC said:
Quote:
Pugh had his crack at RT and was deemed not good enough. His spot duty at LT seemed to prove the same. Coaches see him every day for a few years, they know what he is and isn't. Right now, he's pushing for All Pro at LG, it makes sense to leave him there.

Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.


Pugh was a much better RT in his rookie year than flowers has been a LT the last two years.

I wish they moved as swiftly in moving flowers as they did pugh after he was "deemed not good enough"
Plausible Idea  
Suburbanites : 3/13/2017 11:32 am : link
But he's found his home at LG where he played at a pro bowl level last season. They're better off leaving him there knowing that's one position on the OL they don't have to worry about. If they can get someone like Robinson, Ramcyk or Bolles in the first round or Dawkins, Garcia or Moten in the second round to play LT, moving Flowers to RT, I think they have the making of a real good OL.
RE: Does not compute  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/13/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13391142 JonC said:
Quote:
Pugh had his crack at RT and was deemed not good enough. His spot duty at LT seemed to prove the same. Coaches see him every day for a few years, they know what he is and isn't. Right now, he's pushing for All Pro at LG, it makes sense to leave him there.

Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.


I don't think that he was deemed not good enough. I think they had a bigger need at guard when they drafted Flowers. They wanted to put Flowers at RT, Beaty at LT, and eventually Flowers would take over the LT spot.

Pugh was excellent at RT when he did play, and they just didn't think he would do well at LT. Beaty getting hurt just made that transition happen faster then we anticipated, and Pugh is a great LG as well.
You guys are overthinking this  
JonC : 3/13/2017 11:36 am : link
if he were best suited at OT he'd be out there.
Also I might add  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/13/2017 11:38 am : link
that Beatty was getting older, and had injury concerns from previous seasons, so it was apparent he wouldn't be the long-term answer and we needed another tackle to eventually take over.
RE: You guys are overthinking this  
the coffee man : 3/13/2017 11:38 am : link
In comment 13391164 JonC said:
Quote:
if he were best suited at OT he'd be out there.
He might be a better guard. In fact is. But I think playing him at LT is best for the team as suited. I just cant trust Flowers again. Its putting the entire season on him improving from one of the worst tackles in football.
RE: You guys are overthinking this  
Old Dirty Beckham : 3/13/2017 11:39 am : link
In comment 13391164 JonC said:
Quote:
if he were best suited at OT he'd be out there.


I dont believe that to be true. Teams often play guys out of hope as opposed to reality.
Pugh was an ok LT when he played there, but he is a  
PatersonPlank : 3/13/2017 11:39 am : link
potential All Pro Guard. Moving him with weaken the OL because it would create a problem at Tackle and sort of/maybe solve an issue at T. Leave him at Guard and just deal with one issue, not create another and deal with two
Are you suggesting we need a LT?  
Jimmy Googs : 3/13/2017 11:40 am : link
.
Might work.  
ZGiants98 : 3/13/2017 11:42 am : link
People shooting ideas like this down because it's not an ideal fit need to wake up. We are trying to win a Super Bowl immediately. Time is running out. Our o-line is a joke and we need did nothing to address it again. It is inpereitive we at least line up who we have in the best possible spots to give us the best possible chance. LT is the most important position on the line and Pugh is our best o-lineman who happens to have experience at tackle. It's honestly not the worst idea and not moving him there because we are worried about his future contract is even stupider.
RE: Might work.  
the coffee man : 3/13/2017 11:48 am : link
In comment 13391176 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
People shooting ideas like this down because it's not an ideal fit need to wake up. We are trying to win a Super Bowl immediately. Time is running out. Our o-line is a joke and we need did nothing to address it again. It is inpereitive we at least line up who we have in the best possible spots to give us the best possible chance. LT is the most important position on the line and Pugh is our best o-lineman who happens to have experience at tackle. It's honestly not the worst idea and not moving him there because we are worried about his future contract is even stupider.
Thats my point. To try and win a super bowl before Eli retires.
Welcome the coffee man  
est1986 : 3/13/2017 11:50 am : link
Not a bad point... BUT do you really want Pugh who is set to be a FA kick ass for just one year at Left Tackle in a contract year? That AND If we move Pugh it leaves a need for not one, but two guards! Not sure you fill a hole in one spot just to leave a hole in another, Flowers has more tools and raw ability than any OL in this draft class and its not close IMO but it is time for it to all come together, make or break time for the young left tackle, who is younger than Bolles, Ramzyck and Lamp and has two years of more experience going against NFL caliber edge rushers.
what happened to all the "alligator arms" quips re Pugh?  
Victor in CT : 3/13/2017 11:51 am : link
I don't like this idea. 1) I'm not ready to give up on Flowers 3) How does moving Flowers to LG (where he has NEVER played) help his development as a future LT? 3) How do you know Flowers would be any good at LG? And then if he is, why would you move him back? 2) I don't think Pugh is LT material, and also don't think he's a slam dunk to bring back at big $$. Why help his negotiating position? Even appearing at LT drives up the price.
It isn't about developing players for down the road  
ZGiants98 : 3/13/2017 11:53 am : link
Anymore. Flowers is a very bad LT. We are trying to win now.
So we have  
ryanmkeane : 3/13/2017 11:55 am : link
a pro bowl caliber LG who is just starting to come into his own and JUST when this happens..BBI wants to move him to another position. Classic.
Pugh has found a home at LG  
Go Terps : 3/13/2017 11:55 am : link
He's very good there, and when it comes time to pay him we're better off paying him like a guard than a tackle.

Flowers is probably going be the left tackle.
RE: what happened to all the  
the coffee man : 3/13/2017 11:55 am : link
In comment 13391196 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
I don't like this idea. 1) I'm not ready to give up on Flowers 3) How does moving Flowers to LG (where he has NEVER played) help his development as a future LT? 3) How do you know Flowers would be any good at LG? And then if he is, why would you move him back? 2) I don't think Pugh is LT material, and also don't think he's a slam dunk to bring back at big $$. Why help his negotiating position? Even appearing at LT drives up the price.
I suggested moving Flowers to RT. I have no clue if hell be better there. But at least it isn't ELIS blindside and he cant be worse then last year when he was maybe the worst LT in fottball.

I am not giving up on him. Hes like 22. He can play LT at 24-25 and start for a decade. What I am suggesting is we try and win a superbowl by not letting throwing all the dice on Flowers who if he plays like last year will ruin the season. As for Pugh's price. If he plays well and commands a good price great!!!
Pugh  
chuckydee9 : 3/13/2017 11:56 am : link
was a good LG but I don't think he ever played at all-pro level.. I know he was rated number#1 LG according to PFF at one point last year but his breakdown was pretty bad in terms of pass ranking and Run ranking..Also with Flowers, Newhouse and Jerry being horrible if he held his block for 2.5-3 seconds he won't have to worry because someone else's defender was already harassing Eli.. Basically since we passed a ton till that point in the season his passing score took over and the average run blocking didn't impact his overall score enough.. However he was just average at run blocking at best even according to PFF.. Overall by eye test he was never at the All-pro level.. most likely below Pro-bowl level... good none the less but definitely not All-Pro level..

this leads me to believe that he has good technique but not a lot of power.. if his technique is good and his footwork is quick enough he can play LT.. Even if he plays LT at average level.. I think you can move Flowers to Guard where his technique won't matter as much and his power can take over..the only problem would be he is too tall and may result in Eli not being able to see the passing lanes as well..
Pugh should stay right where he is  
AnnapolisMike : 3/13/2017 11:56 am : link
Say a prayer and give Flowers help on the left side. We have the bodies to fill out the right side. Flowers WILL be better this year....the question of the season will be 'how much better?'
RE: So we have  
the coffee man : 3/13/2017 11:57 am : link
In comment 13391203 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
a pro bowl caliber LG who is just starting to come into his own and JUST when this happens..BBI wants to move him to another position. Classic.
I want to win a super bowl. Moving our best player to the mos timportant ol position might make the team better overall. Even if Pugh drops. If flowers plays like last year we simply cant win the whole thing.

I'm not even advocating Pugh to LT  
ZGiants98 : 3/13/2017 12:11 pm : link
Necessarily. Let's see who we draft and how it shakes out first but if he's our best option at LT when the season rolls around(even if he's average there at best) considering him there should not be out of the question.
RE: Pugh has found a home at LG  
rasbutant : 3/13/2017 12:18 pm : link
In comment 13391204 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He's very good there, and when it comes time to pay him we're better off paying him like a guard than a tackle.

Flowers is probably going be the left tackle.


Agree. Though it seems this year that Guards are getting paid like tackle in FA!
I think, right from the start of OTA's,  
Doomster : 3/13/2017 12:21 pm : link
Solari has to step up and rotate these guys, to see who plays best at all 4 positions outside of center...

Pugh, looks better than he actually is when you compare him to the rest of last year's sub par OL....he is a solid player, nothing more....but that is the state of our OL....

He did not play great at RT his first year.... and when forced to play one game for Flowers, who was hurt, he did fairly well...but one game is not enough to assess his ability there....

Shuffling the line, again, to put the players in their best positions to succeed, does come with a caveat....lack of continuity in pass blocking....but I think with a FB, and a blocking TE, this can offset this problem a little...

We may be stuck with Flowers at LT.....

Things could change, if OLmen are available to us in the draft....

But it's time for Solari, to show why he was hired....
I don't really understand  
RobCarpenter : 3/13/2017 12:22 pm : link
Why Pugh shouldn't at least get some looks at LT in the preseason. Yes, he's a better guard -- but would the line really be better with him at LG and Flowers a LT vs. Pugh at LT and Flowers at LG?

What's the point of preseason if not to figure out what you have?
Welcome aboard Coffee Dude  
idiotsavant : 3/13/2017 12:30 pm : link
I have been ranting on this for over a year now.

Pugh/Lamp[Richburg?]Moton\ (flowers competes with fluker at RT)

Other names, Asiata, and many others.

Idea having been that if you bare down on 'best guards upside in late round 1 and again in round 2', you eliminate much of the risk that you engender if you are still focusing on 'left tackle type upside' at those spots.

In addition, Mac Ball being pass first, and we, lacking Aaron Rodgers type mobility at QB even more onus on a big, great guard/center/guard combo.

I would look to upgrade richburg by 20+ lbs as well.
the coffee man  
Marty866b : 3/13/2017 12:33 pm : link
Welcome to BBI! Very good fist post though I disagree with it. Pugh is a very good guard and a mediocre tackle. It's best for he and the team to remain at guard. Also, who says that Flowers will be better anywhere else? I also think that we may still pick a tackle in the first two rounds. Keep posting!
Posters think this all hasn't been tried before  
JonC : 3/13/2017 12:39 pm : link
The coaches move these guys around and see everything demonstrated in practice, make the best decisions, and go from there. It's not like it hasn't been tried repeatedly already.

Flowers already proved to better than Pugh at LT  
WideRight : 3/13/2017 12:39 pm : link
No need to go through that again.

The more pertinent issue is whether Flowers is up to the job. IMO, his body of work is in fact better than his reputation. Management should come out and take a position, much the way they did with Deihl ten years ago. He's our guy, or he's not
Tired of these alternative facts  
Ivan15 : 3/13/2017 12:42 pm : link
People just make shit up to justify their position.

There still needs to be someone to compete with Flowers for LT.

I would have liked to see Pugh at LT for at least half of a season. It never happened and now we need to move on, unless the Giants conclude Flowers can't play anywhere except LG.

Let the coaches figure out this mess.
Tired of these alternative facts  
Ivan15 : 3/13/2017 12:43 pm : link
People just make crap up to justify their position.

There still needs to be someone to compete with Flowers for LT.

I would have liked to see Pugh at LT for at least half of a season. It never happened and now we need to move on, unless the Giants conclude Flowers can't play anywhere except LG.

Let the coaches figure out this mess.
to my view  
idiotsavant : 3/13/2017 12:44 pm : link
people here still think in terms of 1990s or tom coughlin OL ball, that is to say, often pulling and trapping guards, where nice feet count for a lot.

whereas, it really does seem that under Mac Ball Packers style and maybe Sullivan as well, (and with Eli being much more the pocket passer than, say, Rodgers), we now need a very different type of guard, a big assed literally slobbery type that can push and hold the pocket when the DT even NT has all the initiative in this system of pass first and shotgun all the darn time.

and, in that regard, Pugh not being really ideal.

To me, his nifty athleticism and all around skill set looks better at left tackle given reps there given our system now.

and opening the door to a first round left guard that does all the above + being even much stronger and a bit bigger.
in addition, its not like this goes on forever (OL each year early)  
idiotsavant : 3/13/2017 12:51 pm : link
my suggestion is to go crazy drafting OLers early, especially great great guards and big centers, a few years prior to manning retiring, to get it cranking.

and NOT HAVE TO draft OL at all in 2018 or 2019 etc.
Who, this guy at LT?  
Beer Man : 3/13/2017 12:54 pm : link
Welcome aboard, and worthy effort for your first post  
mfsd : 3/13/2017 12:54 pm : link
I'm also in the camp of keeping Pugh at LG and giving Flowers the chance to improve with another offseason of training and coaching...generally I believe in establishing stability and consistency on the OL, that's when we've been at our best.

It's not a terrible idea - we won games after moving Diehl out to LT when Beatty got hurt a few years back....but I'm just not sure Pugh will give us what we need, and it could further stunt Flowers development

I've accepted the fact we drafted him top 10, and a LT savior isn't going to fall in our laps, so we're likely sticking with him

But who knows, I'm sure this is something the Giants staff is spending a lot of time reviewing film on and discussing this offseason
Flowers is still VERY YOUNG.  
x meadowlander : 3/13/2017 12:55 pm : link
I'm certain that the player best suited to play left tackle will be defined early in camp.

And you better pray that player isn't Pugh.
seems like scouts fall in love with extra height +  
idiotsavant : 3/13/2017 12:58 pm : link
school attended and undervalue balance, grit, endurance, want-to, intelligence, technique and coachability
RE: RE: Pugh has found a home at LG  
chuckydee9 : 3/13/2017 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13391269 rasbutant said:
Quote:
In comment 13391204 Go Terps said:


Quote:


He's very good there, and when it comes time to pay him we're better off paying him like a guard than a tackle.

Flowers is probably going be the left tackle.



Agree. Though it seems this year that Guards are getting paid like tackle in FA!


Only because the LT's were reject level players and Guards were better than average.. Some actually really good ones.. If trent Williams or Tyron Smith were out there than the number will look much different.. Okung was a horrible LT last year.. so much so that the team that had him.. didn't feel he was worth 9M..
I think you extend Pugh with a contract number suitable for Guard and then move him to LT.
exactly  
idiotsavant : 3/13/2017 1:17 pm : link
and draft two great guards early, and maybe a center, so you have a pile on rookie contracts and can cut people prior to next contracts, be they new or FAs, if they don't perform.

so by the time eli retires you have a cheap and ready OL
Welcome  
njjintfan : 3/13/2017 1:18 pm : link
off topic. Why are you "the coffee man:?
It's hilarious to me  
ryanmkeane : 3/13/2017 1:44 pm : link
that people think "Hey let's just move Pugh to LT, he'll probably be better at LT than Flowers." And then...totally forget the other part of the equation which is there would then be a gaping hole at LG. Let me guess, we can just sign a veteran for LG right?
RE: RE: Does not compute  
UConn4523 : 3/13/2017 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13391152 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
In comment 13391142 JonC said:


Quote:


Pugh had his crack at RT and was deemed not good enough. His spot duty at LT seemed to prove the same. Coaches see him every day for a few years, they know what he is and isn't. Right now, he's pushing for All Pro at LG, it makes sense to leave him there.

Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.



Pugh was a much better RT in his rookie year than flowers has been a LT the last two years.

I wish they moved as swiftly in moving flowers as they did pugh after he was "deemed not good enough"


Why draft a 20 year old and then give no time to develop? We also didn't have a better option at LT on the team and still don't, why do you continue to preach the same things with every new OL thread?
Count me in on the Pugh at Tackle proponents...  
Johnny5 : 3/13/2017 1:50 pm : link
... I have said it many times. I think he is a better tackle than guard. Clearly most of BBI (and the Giants FO) disagree... lol.

He was a decent LT at Syracuse. He played well as a rookie at RT (though he did have a sophomore slump), as JonC said they have played him at LT in practice (I specifically remember him getting into a fight with Damontre Moore in practice) and he also played well filling in a LT when Flowers was hurt. I'd actually argue that he looked better at LT in that game than Flowers has at any game at LT for the Giants.
RE: Welcome  
the coffee man : 3/13/2017 2:06 pm : link
In comment 13391376 njjintfan said:
Quote:
off topic. Why are you "the coffee man:?
Fair question. Its a nickname I got from my friends back in high school. Unfortunately I cant explain why!
Pugh  
PaulN : 3/13/2017 2:15 pm : link
Moving to me seems ridiculous, in fact switching all these people around seems stupid to me if you are trying to build continuity and preaching that this is the way offensive lines grow into good units. Yes our offensive line back a few years grew into a very good unit and we kept people where they were, but let's face it, they were good players, so I would not say them playing together alone was the answer. Pugh was not a decent left tackle in college, if he were just decent, how the hell was he a first round pick, and if it is true he was just decent, then what the hell are we doing drafting him in the first round.

I am for keeping Flowers where he is, I am also pissed he was our first round pick because he is a bad pick, but give him some help and hopefully Ellison is a player that will help him, and continue to work with him, get him to work his ass off in the off season also, a lot is up to the individual players, when they don't develop maybe it's also on them, Flowers needs to work his ass off to improve, give him another season and if he continues to struggle, cut bait with him. But we must find out if he is a player or not. No time to back off at this point, not with our cap situation and limited choices.
RE: Pugh  
Johnny5 : 3/13/2017 2:25 pm : link
In comment 13391488 PaulN said:
Quote:
Moving to me seems ridiculous, in fact switching all these people around seems stupid to me if you are trying to build continuity and preaching that this is the way offensive lines grow into good units. Yes our offensive line back a few years grew into a very good unit and we kept people where they were, but let's face it, they were good players, so I would not say them playing together alone was the answer. Pugh was not a decent left tackle in college, if he were just decent, how the hell was he a first round pick, and if it is true he was just decent, then what the hell are we doing drafting him in the first round.

I am for keeping Flowers where he is, I am also pissed he was our first round pick because he is a bad pick, but give him some help and hopefully Ellison is a player that will help him, and continue to work with him, get him to work his ass off in the off season also, a lot is up to the individual players, when they don't develop maybe it's also on them, Flowers needs to work his ass off to improve, give him another season and if he continues to struggle, cut bait with him. But we must find out if he is a player or not. No time to back off at this point, not with our cap situation and limited choices.

Well you are right. And you are kind of arguing both for and against my points... lol. He is athletic and very smart which are 2 great attributes. It still seems that teams were actually truly hung up on his arm length, and that is clearly a big reason the Giants don't see him at tackle. But I have and always will like him better at tackle. I would rather have two maulers at guard and play Pugh at tackle.

Here is an excerpt from an article just before Pugh was drafted:
Quote:
For three years, Pugh started at left tackle. Facing future New England Patriots first-rounder Chandler Jones helped him in the passing game. As a run blocker, the mobile Pugh would excel best in a zone-blocking scheme. With the Orange, he blocked for three different 1,000-yard backs. So leading up to the draft, he has been working at tackle, guard, and even center. Several teams do view Pugh as a guard, possibly a reflection of those shorter arms.

Still, tackle is where he's most comfortable. Pointing to 2007 third overall pick, Joe Thomas, and Green Bay's Bryan Bulaga, Pugh says arm length won't be an issue.

Pugh Draft profile - ( New Window )
I just think the Giants stubbornly will keep  
ZGiants98 : 3/13/2017 3:24 pm : link
a player like Flowers at LT because of his draft status and for the purpose of developing him and that's fine and dandy but time is running out on another ring for Eli. When Beatty signed last year it was said he was in fantastic shape in camp. Was inserting Beatty at LT and moving Flowers to RG or RT really going to blow up our season when Flowers was still struggling? At the time Flowers was still the worst LT in football. We won 11 games last year. Developing Flowers should not have been a bigger priority than putting the best roster out there in a year where we could have gone pretty far.
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