I am new to the forum so I thought I'd introduce myself with a post and take my first hazing!
It has become obvious that there will not be a LT being signed by the Giants or that they will draft one who can play day one.
With limited time left in Eli's career it seems impossible to throw all the dice on Flowers. The Giants cannot win a SB with flowers playing like last year.
Flowers may improve and his future may lay at LT. But what about for this year moving Pugh to LT, where he is tons better then flowers and moving Flowers to RT. Let Fluker and Hart battle out for guards spots.
In the draft, target a TE, and a guard. Just imagine the giants in a set with two tes, Marshall and ODB with the threat of a run game. Flowers would help strengthen the run on the right while Pugh solidifies Eli's blind spot.
In a few years, Flowers will be 24, and can easily go back to LT when hes ready, as was the initial plan before Beatty injury.
I just dont think we can throw all the dice on flowers at LT yet. The Giants had the worst combination of ots in football last year in essence. There may have been others worse but for all intensive purposes at that level you might as well be the worst. Even if Pugh is an average LT, thats enough of an upgrade.
Thoughts and hello BBI!
Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.
Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.
Pugh was a much better RT in his rookie year than flowers has been a LT the last two years.
I wish they moved as swiftly in moving flowers as they did pugh after he was "deemed not good enough"
Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.
I don't think that he was deemed not good enough. I think they had a bigger need at guard when they drafted Flowers. They wanted to put Flowers at RT, Beaty at LT, and eventually Flowers would take over the LT spot.
Pugh was excellent at RT when he did play, and they just didn't think he would do well at LT. Beaty getting hurt just made that transition happen faster then we anticipated, and Pugh is a great LG as well.
I dont believe that to be true. Teams often play guys out of hope as opposed to reality.
Flowers is probably going be the left tackle.
I am not giving up on him. Hes like 22. He can play LT at 24-25 and start for a decade. What I am suggesting is we try and win a superbowl by not letting throwing all the dice on Flowers who if he plays like last year will ruin the season. As for Pugh's price. If he plays well and commands a good price great!!!
this leads me to believe that he has good technique but not a lot of power.. if his technique is good and his footwork is quick enough he can play LT.. Even if he plays LT at average level.. I think you can move Flowers to Guard where his technique won't matter as much and his power can take over..the only problem would be he is too tall and may result in Eli not being able to see the passing lanes as well..
Flowers is probably going be the left tackle.
Agree. Though it seems this year that Guards are getting paid like tackle in FA!
Pugh, looks better than he actually is when you compare him to the rest of last year's sub par OL....he is a solid player, nothing more....but that is the state of our OL....
He did not play great at RT his first year.... and when forced to play one game for Flowers, who was hurt, he did fairly well...but one game is not enough to assess his ability there....
Shuffling the line, again, to put the players in their best positions to succeed, does come with a caveat....lack of continuity in pass blocking....but I think with a FB, and a blocking TE, this can offset this problem a little...
We may be stuck with Flowers at LT.....
Things could change, if OLmen are available to us in the draft....
But it's time for Solari, to show why he was hired....
What's the point of preseason if not to figure out what you have?
Pugh/Lamp[Richburg?]Moton\ (flowers competes with fluker at RT)
Other names, Asiata, and many others.
Idea having been that if you bare down on 'best guards upside in late round 1 and again in round 2', you eliminate much of the risk that you engender if you are still focusing on 'left tackle type upside' at those spots.
In addition, Mac Ball being pass first, and we, lacking Aaron Rodgers type mobility at QB even more onus on a big, great guard/center/guard combo.
I would look to upgrade richburg by 20+ lbs as well.
The more pertinent issue is whether Flowers is up to the job. IMO, his body of work is in fact better than his reputation. Management should come out and take a position, much the way they did with Deihl ten years ago. He's our guy, or he's not
There still needs to be someone to compete with Flowers for LT.
I would have liked to see Pugh at LT for at least half of a season. It never happened and now we need to move on, unless the Giants conclude Flowers can't play anywhere except LG.
Let the coaches figure out this mess.
There still needs to be someone to compete with Flowers for LT.
I would have liked to see Pugh at LT for at least half of a season. It never happened and now we need to move on, unless the Giants conclude Flowers can't play anywhere except LG.
Let the coaches figure out this mess.
whereas, it really does seem that under Mac Ball Packers style and maybe Sullivan as well, (and with Eli being much more the pocket passer than, say, Rodgers), we now need a very different type of guard, a big assed literally slobbery type that can push and hold the pocket when the DT even NT has all the initiative in this system of pass first and shotgun all the darn time.
and, in that regard, Pugh not being really ideal.
To me, his nifty athleticism and all around skill set looks better at left tackle given reps there given our system now.
and opening the door to a first round left guard that does all the above + being even much stronger and a bit bigger.
and NOT HAVE TO draft OL at all in 2018 or 2019 etc.
It's not a terrible idea - we won games after moving Diehl out to LT when Beatty got hurt a few years back....but I'm just not sure Pugh will give us what we need, and it could further stunt Flowers development
I've accepted the fact we drafted him top 10, and a LT savior isn't going to fall in our laps, so we're likely sticking with him
But who knows, I'm sure this is something the Giants staff is spending a lot of time reviewing film on and discussing this offseason
And you better pray that player isn't Pugh.
Quote:
He's very good there, and when it comes time to pay him we're better off paying him like a guard than a tackle.
Flowers is probably going be the left tackle.
Agree. Though it seems this year that Guards are getting paid like tackle in FA!
Only because the LT's were reject level players and Guards were better than average.. Some actually really good ones.. If trent Williams or Tyron Smith were out there than the number will look much different.. Okung was a horrible LT last year.. so much so that the team that had him.. didn't feel he was worth 9M..
I think you extend Pugh with a contract number suitable for Guard and then move him to LT.
so by the time eli retires you have a cheap and ready OL
Quote:
Pugh had his crack at RT and was deemed not good enough. His spot duty at LT seemed to prove the same. Coaches see him every day for a few years, they know what he is and isn't. Right now, he's pushing for All Pro at LG, it makes sense to leave him there.
Being a good collegiate LT doesn't guarantee the same in the NFL.
Pugh was a much better RT in his rookie year than flowers has been a LT the last two years.
I wish they moved as swiftly in moving flowers as they did pugh after he was "deemed not good enough"
Why draft a 20 year old and then give no time to develop? We also didn't have a better option at LT on the team and still don't, why do you continue to preach the same things with every new OL thread?
He was a decent LT at Syracuse. He played well as a rookie at RT (though he did have a sophomore slump), as JonC said they have played him at LT in practice (I specifically remember him getting into a fight with Damontre Moore in practice) and he also played well filling in a LT when Flowers was hurt. I'd actually argue that he looked better at LT in that game than Flowers has at any game at LT for the Giants.
I am for keeping Flowers where he is, I am also pissed he was our first round pick because he is a bad pick, but give him some help and hopefully Ellison is a player that will help him, and continue to work with him, get him to work his ass off in the off season also, a lot is up to the individual players, when they don't develop maybe it's also on them, Flowers needs to work his ass off to improve, give him another season and if he continues to struggle, cut bait with him. But we must find out if he is a player or not. No time to back off at this point, not with our cap situation and limited choices.
I am for keeping Flowers where he is, I am also pissed he was our first round pick because he is a bad pick, but give him some help and hopefully Ellison is a player that will help him, and continue to work with him, get him to work his ass off in the off season also, a lot is up to the individual players, when they don't develop maybe it's also on them, Flowers needs to work his ass off to improve, give him another season and if he continues to struggle, cut bait with him. But we must find out if he is a player or not. No time to back off at this point, not with our cap situation and limited choices.
Well you are right. And you are kind of arguing both for and against my points... lol. He is athletic and very smart which are 2 great attributes. It still seems that teams were actually truly hung up on his arm length, and that is clearly a big reason the Giants don't see him at tackle. But I have and always will like him better at tackle. I would rather have two maulers at guard and play Pugh at tackle.
Here is an excerpt from an article just before Pugh was drafted:
Still, tackle is where he's most comfortable. Pointing to 2007 third overall pick, Joe Thomas, and Green Bay's Bryan Bulaga, Pugh says arm length won't be an issue.
Pugh Draft profile - ( New Window )