and not so much against the run when he was asked to do that. With that said, I think he would be a loss to this Defense and in this NFL, LBers are being asked to provide more coverage then ever. I'm sure the Giants feel they can grab a LBer with the same skill set. JT Thomas sucked IMO and would be a drop off in skill.
are persona non grata in JRs mind. He'd rather have 3 Landon Collins/Trel-type safeties instead of LBs and 2 TEs to supplement the OL instead of OLs.
KB is likely gone.
But I've been plenty wrong before.
are persona non grata in JRs mind. He'd rather have 3 Landon Collins/Trel-type safeties instead of LBs and 2 TEs to supplement the OL instead of OLs.
KB is likely gone.
But I've been plenty wrong before.
I think you are right on this one. You can add TE to the list as well.
They have no $$$$, yea I know I keep hearing how they can make cap space but I can't see it being much. JPP has them by the short hairs, they need to fill holes with the draft and that's the proper way of building your roster anyway. Someone like Alex Anzelone in the 4th round would more than adequately replace Robinson, who btw I like and would love to see back.
are persona non grata in JRs mind. He'd rather have 3 Landon Collins/Trel-type safeties instead of LBs and 2 TEs to supplement the OL instead of OLs.
KB is likely gone.
But I've been plenty wrong before.
Pretty sure it was Reese who signed him last year to a fair number of objections on BBI.
Than what we're use to seeing, that really says something about how piss poor our LB covering people has been over the last 3 or 4 years. Robinson was decent, not great, and replaceable. Perhaps Goodwin gets more time there, which was hinted at in recent press conferences, or we spend a unconventionally high (Rd 1-3) pick on a LB?
Than what we're use to seeing, that really says something about how piss poor our LB covering people has been over the last 3 or 4 years. Robinson was decent, not great, and replaceable. Perhaps Goodwin gets more time there, which was hinted at in recent press conferences, or we spend a unconventionally high (Rd 1-3) pick on a LB?
My impression of Goodson is that he is a thumper. Not a coverage LB. Maybe I'm wrong.
If we lose Hankins, Robinson, Jerry, and Newhouse and add Marshall, Ellison, and Fluker has the roster gotten better or worse?
If Marshall returns to his old self and I see no reason he won't, than he alone makes this a net positive free agency season.
Eh it's close. I posted that before the Jerry signing. I agree Marshall should clog one big hole but I think Hankins is worth more on the open market by far and losing him just opens another hole. Fluker is similar to Jerry/Newhouse. All 3 suck. Getting a blocking TE was nice but losing a LB who started most days would sting also. Still, we have an entire draft so we should be better on paper when it's all said and done. Im bummed we didnt do more to fix the line.
Than what we're use to seeing, that really says something about how piss poor our LB covering people has been over the last 3 or 4 years. Robinson was decent, not great, and replaceable. Perhaps Goodwin gets more time there, which was hinted at in recent press conferences, or we spend a unconventionally high (Rd 1-3) pick on a LB?
The team could also go back to using three safeties in obvious passing situations. Something Spags did his first tenure with the Giants.
Than what we're use to seeing, that really says something about how piss poor our LB covering people has been over the last 3 or 4 years. Robinson was decent, not great, and replaceable. Perhaps Goodwin gets more time there, which was hinted at in recent press conferences, or we spend a unconventionally high (Rd 1-3) pick on a LB?
My impression of Goodson is that he is a thumper. Not a coverage LB. Maybe I'm wrong.
No you're not wrong, that's exactly what he is, he's a thumper. He'll be given every chance to win the MIKE spot this season which is his best position. He could probably be a decent SAM but a WILL he's not and never will be.
available for Robinson. That doesn't make sense to me. Robinson was a 1st round pick. Injuries hurt his value but he played darn well last year. Better than Jerry.
But remember what happened with the oft-injured Jon Beason. He had one healthy year with the Giants so they signed him to a longterm deal and then he return to his oft-injured ways. This was also my concern when they were sniffing around Okung.
The upside of losing Robinson is his place in the comp pick formula.
As it stands right now, Robinson, Newhouse, and Gould all "potentially" count as losses and only Ellison counts as a gain (as far as comp picks are concerned). I put potentially in quotes because it depends on the contract, but if they are multi-year deals that average over $1M in annual compensation, they will count for at least 7th round value. When Hankins signs with another team, it will likely be for an amount that counts 4th or 5th round value. I would peg Ellison's contract at 5th or 6th round value by comparison.
Here's a little something form OTC on the subject...
Quote:
Methodology:
Each qualifying player has a value based on his contract, playing time and postseason honors, and that value corresponds to a round in the draft. In the compensatory equation, each qualifying player that a team signs cancels out a qualifying player that the team lost whose value is the highest in the same round. If there are no lost players remaining in that round, the signed player cancels out the lost player whose value is the next-highest. A signed player will cancel out a lost player whose value falls in a higher round only if there are no remaining lost players. After all of a team’s qualifying signed players have canceled out a lost player, the team can receive a comp pick for each qualifying player who remains. For example, consider a team that loses one qualifying player whose value falls in the third round and another qualifying player whose value falls in the sixth round but signs a qualifying player whose value falls in the third round. That team would receive a sixth-round comp pick because the signed player would cancel out the loss of the higher-valued player. If the signed player’s value were equal to a fourth-round pick or lower, however, the team would receive a third-round comp pick, because the signed player would cancel out the loss of the lower-valued player.
Determining Adjusted APY
The first phase necessary to execute these cancellations are to value each UFA that changed teams. OTC’s program does this by using the following steps:
Start with the actual APY of the contract signed.
Subtract from the actual APY any money that the compensatory formula does not count. It has been determined that workout bonuses, incentives, and salary escalators are the most common money figures that the compensatory formula does not count.
Adjust the APY by applying a coefficient based upon the percentage of offensive or defensive snaps the player took in his first year under the contract. OTC’s current adjustment uses 45% of the snaps as a base (a percentage that has been observed to be important for playing time for NFL contracts in general), in which a player who plays this amount will see no change, and for most players the adjustment will range to -9% (at 0% of the snaps) to +9% (at 90% of the snaps). For players who played more than 90% of the snaps, this playing time adjustment will get a 50% bonus, meaning that the maximum increase possible (for someone who played 100% of the snaps) is 16.5%.
Apply a positive coefficient to each UFA that obtained postseason honors. Currently, there is not enough data for OTC to reliably apply the coefficient. However, it is believed that postseason honors adjustments are smaller than playing time adjustments, and there are typically very few relevant CFAs that obtain them to begin with. It is believed that the postseason honors used in the compensatory formula are the ones explicitly listed in the CBA. These honors are Pro Bowl, All-NFL (First and Second Team), All-Conference (First and Second Team), Super Bowl MVP, NFL MVP, Offensive Player of the Year (NFL or Conference), Defensive Player of the Year (NFL or Conference), and Player of the Year (NFL or Conference).
Qualifying CFAs And Assigning Them To A Round
Once an adjusted APY has been determined, each UFA is given a value that either assigns him as a CFA to a particular round, ranging from the 3rd to the 7th, or does not qualify him as a CFA at all. For years, this assignment has been considered by far the hardest part of the formula to project. When Adam did his projections, he observed that by year to year the cutoff points for each assignment appeared to increase at the same rate as the salary cap. Therefore his solution to address this difficulty was to increase the cutoff points at the same rate. However, when OTC investigated the 2013 to 2015 compensatory draft pick awardings, we were unable to find a reliable way to apply such an increase. Nonetheless, in the past we continued to use Adam’s method as there was no clearly superior alternative available.
IMO he was a key contributor to one of the major successes of this defense - getting off the field on third downs.
Poor LB coverage killed us in the past. I don't want to go back to that.
If they are truly looking at both Fluker/Jerry for the RG position I would have rather picked only one and signed this guy. I've seen too many LBers get beat in coverage to prefer spending millions on backup RG while we lose the best coverage lber we've had in years.
And I don't want to lose him, but if they do, I think we'll see a lot of 3 safety sets. They love Darian Thompson and Anthony Adams played very well in his absence. I anticipate a lot of formations with Goodson and Kennard at LB, Thompson in kind of a Shaq Thompson like hybrid role with Adams and Collins at FS and SS.
He was a Giants' target in my mind pre-draft last year, he has tremendous football instincts and leadership, and I think he will rise to the occasion. He's not as range-y maybe as Robinson, but his football instincts cover for a lot. I think people will be surprised... and I think he'll be the starter at MLB for the next 3 years and potentially longer.
And I don't want to lose him, but if they do, I think we'll see a lot of 3 safety sets. They love Darian Thompson and Anthony Adams played very well in his absence. I anticipate a lot of formations with Goodson and Kennard at LB, Thompson in kind of a Shaq Thompson like hybrid role with Adams and Collins at FS and SS.
is why they've kept Thomas and not signed Robinson. From what I've read Thomas cap is about 3 million. Unless Robinson is asking for much more seems like a no brainer to me.
As stated many times above, Robinson played very well and was an important part of the Defense. Thomas has been hurt both years he's been here.
It's taken a wile to get an effective player in that slot for us. Years in fact. Unless his contract demands are out of whack we should push hard to re-sign him.
On the flip side Haason Reddick would look damn fine in a blue jersey.
And I don't want to lose him, but if they do, I think we'll see a lot of 3 safety sets. They love Darian Thompson and Anthony Adams played very well in his absence. I anticipate a lot of formations with Goodson and Kennard at LB, Thompson in kind of a Shaq Thompson like hybrid role with Adams and Collins at FS and SS.
I came into this thread to say exactly what you posted.
It's not really a loss per say,but it does take away a scheme or two we could imploy.
But then again,being able to put basically two free safeties on the field,or two SS with Berhe and Collins will give us similar flexibility.
And I don't want to lose him, but if they do, I think we'll see a lot of 3 safety sets. They love Darian Thompson and Anthony Adams played very well in his absence. I anticipate a lot of formations with Goodson and Kennard at LB, Thompson in kind of a Shaq Thompson like hybrid role with Adams and Collins at FS and SS.
It is not a good idea to rest your laurels on players that cannot stay healthy. Thompson has had injury issues dating back to college. To rely on him is a recipe for disaster at this point and one the Giants have already suffered from numerous times over the years.
I'll say the same thing about Robinson that I said about Hankins. Â
Even if the Giants do re-sign him - even if they let him walk and sign another UFA LB, a guy like Andrew Gachkar - it would serve them well to draft a LB this year {preferably one who can play multiple positions) and get him in the pipeline now.
I am ok with Robinson signing elsewhere as long as we drop Thomas too and use that money to bring in Gerald Hodges. Hodges can make some impact plays. Robinson was good in a few games but mostly just ok for me. I would give Ishaq Williams a real chance to earn a spot for depth and spend a draft pick on a LB.
So, cut Thomas; let Robinson sign elsewhere and add Hodges, play Ishaq Williams and draft a LB.
No they both play base WLB and nickel. Both speedy coverage backers. I prefer Robinson but just wondering aloud.
Quote:
play two different LB positions or at least have two completely different skill sets?
No they both play base WLB and nickel. Both speedy coverage backers. I prefer Robinson but just wondering aloud.
:)
No way in hell.
Neither player is a longterm answer, but KR can at least be effective as the nickel MIKE.
This.
Robinson was just a JAG anyways playing behind an elite DL and secondary.
Why, you're expecting KR to cash in with the Bengals?
Can't be that they're prioritizing Thomas, he's not even healthy yet.
KB is likely gone.
But I've been plenty wrong before.
KB is likely gone.
But I've been plenty wrong before.
Giants Re-Sign John Jerry; Keenan Robinson Visits Bengals - ( New Window )
KB is likely gone.
But I've been plenty wrong before.
Pretty sure it was Reese who signed him last year to a fair number of objections on BBI.
My impression of Goodson is that he is a thumper. Not a coverage LB. Maybe I'm wrong.
I agree. Or Obi Msodsfihe3w4oti in the 2nd?
Quote:
If we lose Hankins, Robinson, Jerry, and Newhouse and add Marshall, Ellison, and Fluker has the roster gotten better or worse?
If Marshall returns to his old self and I see no reason he won't, than he alone makes this a net positive free agency season.
Eh it's close. I posted that before the Jerry signing. I agree Marshall should clog one big hole but I think Hankins is worth more on the open market by far and losing him just opens another hole. Fluker is similar to Jerry/Newhouse. All 3 suck. Getting a blocking TE was nice but losing a LB who started most days would sting also. Still, we have an entire draft so we should be better on paper when it's all said and done. Im bummed we didnt do more to fix the line.
Quote:
Than what we're use to seeing, that really says something about how piss poor our LB covering people has been over the last 3 or 4 years. Robinson was decent, not great, and replaceable. Perhaps Goodwin gets more time there, which was hinted at in recent press conferences, or we spend a unconventionally high (Rd 1-3) pick on a LB?
My impression of Goodson is that he is a thumper. Not a coverage LB. Maybe I'm wrong.
No you're not wrong, that's exactly what he is, he's a thumper. He'll be given every chance to win the MIKE spot this season which is his best position. He could probably be a decent SAM but a WILL he's not and never will be.
Possible. I love Reddick.
The upside of losing Robinson is his place in the comp pick formula.
As it stands right now, Robinson, Newhouse, and Gould all "potentially" count as losses and only Ellison counts as a gain (as far as comp picks are concerned). I put potentially in quotes because it depends on the contract, but if they are multi-year deals that average over $1M in annual compensation, they will count for at least 7th round value. When Hankins signs with another team, it will likely be for an amount that counts 4th or 5th round value. I would peg Ellison's contract at 5th or 6th round value by comparison.
Here's a little something form OTC on the subject...
Each qualifying player has a value based on his contract, playing time and postseason honors, and that value corresponds to a round in the draft. In the compensatory equation, each qualifying player that a team signs cancels out a qualifying player that the team lost whose value is the highest in the same round. If there are no lost players remaining in that round, the signed player cancels out the lost player whose value is the next-highest. A signed player will cancel out a lost player whose value falls in a higher round only if there are no remaining lost players. After all of a team’s qualifying signed players have canceled out a lost player, the team can receive a comp pick for each qualifying player who remains. For example, consider a team that loses one qualifying player whose value falls in the third round and another qualifying player whose value falls in the sixth round but signs a qualifying player whose value falls in the third round. That team would receive a sixth-round comp pick because the signed player would cancel out the loss of the higher-valued player. If the signed player’s value were equal to a fourth-round pick or lower, however, the team would receive a third-round comp pick, because the signed player would cancel out the loss of the lower-valued player.
Determining Adjusted APY
The first phase necessary to execute these cancellations are to value each UFA that changed teams. OTC’s program does this by using the following steps:
Start with the actual APY of the contract signed.
Subtract from the actual APY any money that the compensatory formula does not count. It has been determined that workout bonuses, incentives, and salary escalators are the most common money figures that the compensatory formula does not count.
Adjust the APY by applying a coefficient based upon the percentage of offensive or defensive snaps the player took in his first year under the contract. OTC’s current adjustment uses 45% of the snaps as a base (a percentage that has been observed to be important for playing time for NFL contracts in general), in which a player who plays this amount will see no change, and for most players the adjustment will range to -9% (at 0% of the snaps) to +9% (at 90% of the snaps). For players who played more than 90% of the snaps, this playing time adjustment will get a 50% bonus, meaning that the maximum increase possible (for someone who played 100% of the snaps) is 16.5%.
Apply a positive coefficient to each UFA that obtained postseason honors. Currently, there is not enough data for OTC to reliably apply the coefficient. However, it is believed that postseason honors adjustments are smaller than playing time adjustments, and there are typically very few relevant CFAs that obtain them to begin with. It is believed that the postseason honors used in the compensatory formula are the ones explicitly listed in the CBA. These honors are Pro Bowl, All-NFL (First and Second Team), All-Conference (First and Second Team), Super Bowl MVP, NFL MVP, Offensive Player of the Year (NFL or Conference), Defensive Player of the Year (NFL or Conference), and Player of the Year (NFL or Conference).
Qualifying CFAs And Assigning Them To A Round
Once an adjusted APY has been determined, each UFA is given a value that either assigns him as a CFA to a particular round, ranging from the 3rd to the 7th, or does not qualify him as a CFA at all. For years, this assignment has been considered by far the hardest part of the formula to project. When Adam did his projections, he observed that by year to year the cutoff points for each assignment appeared to increase at the same rate as the salary cap. Therefore his solution to address this difficulty was to increase the cutoff points at the same rate. However, when OTC investigated the 2013 to 2015 compensatory draft pick awardings, we were unable to find a reliable way to apply such an increase. Nonetheless, in the past we continued to use Adam’s method as there was no clearly superior alternative available.
Basics and methodology on figuring comp picks - ( New Window )
Poor LB coverage killed us in the past. I don't want to go back to that.
If they are truly looking at both Fluker/Jerry for the RG position I would have rather picked only one and signed this guy. I've seen too many LBers get beat in coverage to prefer spending millions on backup RG while we lose the best coverage lber we've had in years.
lol this made my chuckle...
As stated many times above, Robinson played very well and was an important part of the Defense. Thomas has been hurt both years he's been here.
On the flip side Haason Reddick would look damn fine in a blue jersey.
I came into this thread to say exactly what you posted.
It's not really a loss per say,but it does take away a scheme or two we could imploy.
But then again,being able to put basically two free safeties on the field,or two SS with Berhe and Collins will give us similar flexibility.
It is not a good idea to rest your laurels on players that cannot stay healthy. Thompson has had injury issues dating back to college. To rely on him is a recipe for disaster at this point and one the Giants have already suffered from numerous times over the years.
So, cut Thomas; let Robinson sign elsewhere and add Hodges, play Ishaq Williams and draft a LB.