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JPP and the Salary Cap Myth

Milton : 3/13/2017 5:30 pm
If you look at the contracts offered to the likes of Marshall, Ellison, Fluker, and Jerry, it should be clear that the Giants aren't operating as if they are squeezed tight against the cap by JPP's franchise designation. These are not the kind of contracts that teams give out to these types of players when they are feeling cap-strapped.

They don't have the cap room to spend like a drunken sailor, but that would be the case without or without JPP's tag. Last year was their "drunken sailor" year and thankfully they emerged from it without any communicable diseases. When that happens you count your blessings and don't press your luck.
You have no idea  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2017 5:34 pm : link
maybe they would have signed Okung, read some of Patty's tweets, they DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY.

I'm not saying they should or should not have signed Okung (and he's just an example), but they were not serious suitors for him, whether the reported interest and then retraction of the interest were true or not.

Maybe the Giants would have signed Logan Ryan, maybe Stephon Gilmore, maybe they'd be interested in Calais Campbell or Donta Hightower.

Bottom line is because of JPP on the FT they have less money to spend without making a transaction they to this point have been reluctant to make (cutting, restructuring, etc a current player).

that's the facts, anything else you have typed is your opinion.
True  
Rjanyg : 3/13/2017 5:35 pm : link
But we haven't brought back Hankins and Robinson who are keys to our dominant defense from last year.

I think they could free up the same amount of CAP  
rasbutant : 3/13/2017 5:43 pm : link
by extending Pugh as they would by signed JPP. Just another option. It too bad they are that tight that this is such a hot topic.

I think you are confusing the word "myth" with "opinion"  
j_rud : 3/13/2017 5:47 pm : link
.
pjcas18  
Samiam : 3/13/2017 5:54 pm : link
I don't think it's limited to not having the money. I think they made a decision that these players, especially on the OL, were not worth either the money or the years or both. I keep coming back to the point that Reese had the money to spend last year that he had because he avoided long term contracts to mediocre or average players in the previous years
Can't claim they are "tight". If they were, they wouldn't franchise  
Ivan15 : 3/13/2017 5:59 pm : link
JPP.

Frugal, cautious maybe.
RE: pjcas18  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2017 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13392013 Samiam said:
Quote:
I don't think it's limited to not having the money. I think they made a decision that these players, especially on the OL, were not worth either the money or the years or both. I keep coming back to the point that Reese had the money to spend last year that he had because he avoided long term contracts to mediocre or average players in the previous years


Possibly, but Milton doesn't know that, none of us do.

Hankins and Robinson, both good examples. If you believe the beat writers they talked to both, but neither was satisfied with the offer and decided to shop around.

Could be Reese set value and wouldn't budge or the Giants couldn't exceed their offer due to financial constraints.

My sense is given the cap situation and last off-season's spending spree the Giants went in with the mindset of they will sign 5 ponies instead of a horse.

but that doesn't mean in any way IMO there were players they coveted but just didn't pursue and money wasn't a factor.

RE: RE: pjcas18  
Milton : 3/13/2017 6:07 pm : link
In comment 13392018 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13392013 Samiam said:


Quote:


I don't think it's limited to not having the money. I think they made a decision that these players, especially on the OL, were not worth either the money or the years or both. I keep coming back to the point that Reese had the money to spend last year that he had because he avoided long term contracts to mediocre or average players in the previous years



Possibly, but Milton doesn't know that, none of us do.
What we do know is how much they've paid Marshall, Ellison, Fluker, and Jerry. And these aren't the kind of contracts given out to these types of players by a team that feels overburdened by the cap.

The Giants are putting a price on players and sticking to it. And the price is based on the player's value, not on how much room the Giants have under the cap.
RE: RE: RE: pjcas18  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2017 6:13 pm : link
In comment 13392021 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13392018 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13392013 Samiam said:


Quote:


I don't think it's limited to not having the money. I think they made a decision that these players, especially on the OL, were not worth either the money or the years or both. I keep coming back to the point that Reese had the money to spend last year that he had because he avoided long term contracts to mediocre or average players in the previous years



Possibly, but Milton doesn't know that, none of us do.


What we do know is how much they've paid Marshall, Ellison, Fluker, and Jerry. And these aren't the kind of contracts given out to these types of players by a team that feels overburdened by the cap.

The Giants are putting a price on players and sticking to it. And the price is based on the player's value, not on how much room the Giants have under the cap.


This is 100% meaningless statement to the topic.

Quote:
And these aren't the kind of contracts given out to these types of players by a team that feels overburdened by the cap.


you have literally no idea if the Giants are impacted negatively by JPP being on the FT unless you knew what players Jerry Reese wanted to sign.

Maybe Reese wanted to sign Zeitler, but if he did sign Zeitler that would be the only FA move he could make.

So he decided that the team would be better off signing Ellison, Marshall, Fluker, and Jerry instead of one player like Zeitler.

You want it to be true (that the Giants are not hamstrung by the JPP FT), that's clear, you've said it a ton of times, but you just don't know. It is your opinion.

Think of it this way. If the Giants had unlimited cap room would they have signed anyone different? If yes, then you need to ask yourself if JPP tag amount vs the amount of cap hit were he to sign a LT contract (or even just let him walk) is the difference then you have your answer. But again, you cannot answer that unless you have connections in the Giants FO.
If Reese really wanted those guys  
WillVAB : 3/13/2017 6:28 pm : link
He would've made it happen. They could and still can restructure guys to open up space.

Reese and Abrams set value and stick to it. I'm glad they didn't overpay for guys with serious issues.

It's not just about '17. There's big contracts on the horizon if the Giants want to keep OBJ, Collins, etc.
The Cowboys freed up 17 million by restructuring two of their highly  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/13/2017 8:29 pm : link
paid young linemen, and another 5 million by restructuring Sean Lee.

Per ESPN.comís Todd Archer, the Cowboys restructured the deals of All-Pro left tackle Tyron Smith and All-Pro center Travis Frederick, freeing up approximately $17.3 million of cap room in the process.

The Cowboys restructured the contract of All-Pro linebacker Sean Lee on Tuesday to free up a little more than $5 million in salary-cap space.


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, since I ain't no capologist, but teams have used restructurings since the dawn of the cap to free up cap space. There's usually no down side as in "mortgaging the future" as long as the league keeps raising the salary cap by $10 million a year and as long as Eli's $20 million cap hit comes off after two or three more seasons.

Since we haven't heard from "sources" that they've done a major restructure, they probably haven't yet.
There is a Downside to Restructuring  
Samiam : 3/13/2017 8:47 pm : link
At some point the bills will come due. At some point, the player will age out or become less effective or suffer a career ending injury. And. at some point, you run out of good young players to restructure. Then a team has too much dead money and the increased Cap won't pay for the players who want huge raises especially if the team achieves success
Right Player, Right Price  
djstat : 3/13/2017 9:07 pm : link
Ala Brandon Marshal.

Okung was way over paid. Glad we dont have him for that kind of coin.
If they just restructured a player once and didn't make a habit of it,  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/13/2017 9:12 pm : link
would there still be a risk to restructure?

Looking at the NFL salary cap increases for the last six years, I think you can see why the cap just isn't the devil that it used to be for teams year to year:

2011 - 3.0 million
2012 + 0.6 million
2013 + 2.4 million
2014 + 10.0 million
2015 + 10.3 million
2016 + 12.0 million
disagree at almost every level..  
grizz299 : 3/14/2017 1:00 am : link
Milton cites the Marshall deal as an example of a team that's not cap strapped.
The nice wide receiver from Washington (Charcon?sp?) signs for 16 million for next year and we get a much better receiver for 12 million for two.
That's a gift and not an example of a team that is operating with freedom within the cap.
The idea that any player (other than a qb) ties up that much cap room and is not restricitve is probably fanciful.
The idea too that the increasing cap helps is probably illusional too. It goes up for every team, relatively it doesn't mean anything.
So when you look at a Okung and say he's not worth the money....of course he is, he got it, the marketplace sets the standard and we can't play because of the JPP contract.
Robinson and Hankins are both important and proven and hold a greater upside than they showed last year. Why aren't they signed? Ans: (and it's scarcely debatable) because of the JPP signing.
RE: True  
Mike from SI : 3/14/2017 1:17 am : link
In comment 13391987 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
But we haven't brought back Hankins and Robinson who are keys to our dominant defense from last year.


Robinson was a key to our defense this year? I recall being sober for most of our games but don't remember that.... (Maybe he was good during the drunks ones :) )
The bargain shopping you're seeing is typical of the Giants  
jcn56 : 3/14/2017 1:19 am : link
it's usually one big FA acquisition and several smaller, 'under the radar' types. The outlier was last year, when an abundance of cap space and a serious need on D happened to converge with the available players in FA.

If we were even close to being tight, someone would have been cut loose or taken a paycut by now. The team threatened to do it to Harris but it didn't come to that. JT Thomas is still on the roster. Vereen got his $500k.

These aren't the moves of a team that is tight. The Giants could have manufactured a few million just by these moves, without restructuring players they intend to keep and complicating the '18 and '19 caps.
RE: disagree at almost every level..  
Milton : 3/14/2017 1:33 am : link
In comment 13392292 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Milton cites the Marshall deal as an example of a team that's not cap strapped.
The nice wide receiver from Washington (Charcon?sp?) signs for 16 million for next year and we get a much better receiver for 12 million for two.
That's a gift and not an example of a team that is operating with freedom within the cap.
The idea that any player (other than a qb) ties up that much cap room and is not restricitve is probably fanciful.
The idea too that the increasing cap helps is probably illusional too. It goes up for every team, relatively it doesn't mean anything.
So when you look at a Okung and say he's not worth the money....of course he is, he got it, the marketplace sets the standard and we can't play because of the JPP contract.
Robinson and Hankins are both important and proven and hold a greater upside than they showed last year. Why aren't they signed? Ans: (and it's scarcely debatable) because of the JPP signing.
You're a funny one. On the one hand you say that Okung is worth the money he got because that's what he got and yet somehow JPP is not worth what he got? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. All seem agreed that Denver suffered from bad OL play last year and yet he signed with the Chargers for more money than he was due to make with the Broncos.

As for Robinson and Hankins, the Giants aren't the only team who have yet to agree with them on what they're worth. The Giants haven't prioritized signing them because they aren't core players, not because of JPP. If JPP had already signed the longterm deal he is likely to sign, Robinson and Hankins would still be unsigned. The hold up isn't the franchise designation for JPP.

There are all kinds of moves the Giants could be making right now if they were scrambling for much needed cap room to sign free agents they coveted, but they've made none of these moves. The JPP situation will resolve itself in time, the Giants appear to be in no hurry.

You can feel free to disagree with me "at almost every level" but back it up with a better argument than "it's scarcely debatable" (although that did make me chuckle).
I say high, you say low - ( New Window )
RE: True  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/14/2017 1:50 am : link
In comment 13391987 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
But we haven't brought back Hankins and Robinson who are keys to our dominant defense from last year.


Um. Robinson was a key to that D? A career journeyman? Hankins maybe a bigger part but if Reese should have redone Hankins two years ago. And Robinson while solid is easily replaceable.

Keys Jenkins Snacks Collins and JPP and Vernon. Then maybe Hankins. Then You'd have to get past DRC and Apple too before u get to Robinson. In fact he's somewhere between the 8th to 12th guy on that D. Hankins was arguably the last of the staring 4 DL. Only so much cap space.
RE: RE: disagree at almost every level..  
chopperhatch : 3/14/2017 2:03 am : link
In comment 13392301 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13392292 grizz299 said:


Quote:


Milton cites the Marshall deal as an example of a team that's not cap strapped.
The nice wide receiver from Washington (Charcon?sp?) signs for 16 million for next year and we get a much better receiver for 12 million for two.
That's a gift and not an example of a team that is operating with freedom within the cap.
The idea that any player (other than a qb) ties up that much cap room and is not restricitve is probably fanciful.
The idea too that the increasing cap helps is probably illusional too. It goes up for every team, relatively it doesn't mean anything.
So when you look at a Okung and say he's not worth the money....of course he is, he got it, the marketplace sets the standard and we can't play because of the JPP contract.
Robinson and Hankins are both important and proven and hold a greater upside than they showed last year. Why aren't they signed? Ans: (and it's scarcely debatable) because of the JPP signing.

You're a funny one. On the one hand you say that Okung is worth the money he got because that's what he got and yet somehow JPP is not worth what he got? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. All seem agreed that Denver suffered from bad OL play last year and yet he signed with the Chargers for more money than he was due to make with the Broncos.

As for Robinson and Hankins, the Giants aren't the only team who have yet to agree with them on what they're worth. The Giants haven't prioritized signing them because they aren't core players, not because of JPP. If JPP had already signed the longterm deal he is likely to sign, Robinson and Hankins would still be unsigned. The hold up isn't the franchise designation for JPP.

There are all kinds of moves the Giants could be making right now if they were scrambling for much needed cap room to sign free agents they coveted, but they've made none of these moves. The JPP situation will resolve itself in time, the Giants appear to be in no hurry.

You can feel free to disagree with me "at almost every level" but back it up with a better argument than "it's scarcely debatable" (although that did make me chuckle). I say high, you say low - ( New Window )


grizz is a dunce....don't waste your time.
restructuring  
fkap : 3/14/2017 7:44 am : link
the cap goes up every year.

so do players salaries.

you can't spend the cap increase on repaying the mortgage you restructured AND on increased salaries. It's one or the other.
for all we know they may be ready to pull the FT offer and let him go  
Victor in CT : 3/14/2017 8:44 am : link
and free up that $17 Million.
And why would anyone use lack of interest in Okung as a barometer of spending plans? He sucks. He was let go in successive seasons by teams with no obvious replacement.

The Giants are showing intelligence. Look at this year and last. Last year, the FA market was strong with rising players in areas of need and they pounced. This year, the field is lacking in obvious areas of need like OL, so they get Fluker on the cheap, retain Jerry for depth and now look to the draft, got Marshall on a favorable deal. Shit, WAS is paying more in annual $$ for Pryor than the Giants are for Marshall. The only guy I could say they overpaid for was Ellison. Hopefully he palys up to the contract.
RE: restructuring  
jcn56 : 3/14/2017 8:48 am : link
In comment 13392365 fkap said:
Quote:
the cap goes up every year.

so do players salaries.

you can't spend the cap increase on repaying the mortgage you restructured AND on increased salaries. It's one or the other.


Change your sentence a bit to read 'you can't *continually spend the cap increase' and I'm with you.

But teams do it (and some of them continually). Teams that do it wisely - within reason, not an annual occurrence, sign quality players with the money freed up - tend to not pay for the transgression.
I'll agree with putting that caveat on  
fkap : 3/14/2017 8:59 am : link
if everyone who cavalierly calls for restructuring (or cut post 6/1, for that matter) do. a lot of people talk like it's free money.
Myth my ass  
HomerJones45 : 3/14/2017 9:27 am : link
Reese and GM Jr could take a dump in the middle of Broadway and some of you would talk about the outstanding fragrance.

Last season, these guys had to make up for poor drafting by throwing 200+ million around for defensive players, including the top three free agents available- an unprecedented sum spent on one side of the ball in FA-vaulting 3 players into the top 7 most highly paid at their positions.

This season, you are seeing what it is like having to shop in the bargain bin. First they had to franchise one of their top defensive players having set the market for top DE's and then failed to lock him up which cut into an already thin cap. Let's see what else they got:

- a 33 year old wideout who has been mediocre two of his last three seasons and a locker room problem who has worn out his welcome on 4 other teams. Maybe they can get a year of good behavior out of him. That at least has been his MO.

- a 29 year old lead blocker with a loquacious former player as a Dad who has caught a grand total of 50 passes in a 5 year career for less than a 10 yard average. On a team that threw nearly 600 passes last season, Ellison was targeted a mere 20 times. Oh, and the Vikes running game was worse than ours. The much hated Donnell caught 110 in one less year. Stumpy the TE caught 90 in the last two seasons.

- John Jerry. Enough said.

- DJ Fluker who was tried at both tackle positions and guard. San Diego dumped him before he got Rivers hospitalized again. No one in that division, who should be pretty familiar with Fluker, expressed any interest in him, looking elsewhere, anywhere else, for OL help.

There is your help for an offense that was terrible last season. A #1 pick bust reclamation project, a guy released from his last team due to age and a locker room fistfight, a meh player that everyone here wanted replaced and a role player. In a league where speed and quickness kills, we managed to get slower. If that isn't shopping Filene's basement, what is?

And before one of you starts with the "what else did you want them to do?", the answer is there is nothing they could do. They hamstrung themselves with poor drafts, lack of foresight, excess caution, and last season's big spending spree. Barring a miracle season from one of these guys, if I'm Eli, I'm looking for a landing place because they've already set him up as the fall guy.
Hey Homer  
RollBlue : 3/14/2017 9:34 am : link
who was a BIG part of those drafts and lack of foresight, ie hanging on to guys like Snee too long????????
if you think the Giants would have gone on some spending spree  
djm : 3/14/2017 9:39 am : link
or signed even one big time player to a long term deal if JPP was locked down long term, you're dreaming.

This JPP thing has taken on a life of its own. You guys are making assumptions and leaps based on nothing more than opinion. If you really think about it, the Giants have more long term cap room now then they would if they signed JPP long term. Yes they have eaten a few extra million here and now with the FT but that doesn't mean they sign some super star player. You're reaching and looking for excuses to blame JPP.
A few points  
Mike in Boston : 3/14/2017 9:47 am : link
1) The assumption that if (when?) the Giants and JPP strike a long term deal, the team will want to pay a large bonus and defer some of the cap hit may not be right. They have Beckham and Pugh next year, and Collins and a replacement for DRC the year after that (or the DRC replacement may be next year), none of which will be cheap. And the idea of pushing money out until Eli's contract runs out makes little sense. While it will be great if they can draft his replacement, it is far more likely they will be paying more (given the escalation in salary) for a QB who isn't as good to replace Eli.

2) Given that no one else has signed Hankins or Robinson either, it is at least as likely they they have overestimated their value as it is that the Giants are too cap strapped to sign them. Yes, if they had more cap room, they might be willing to overpay, but that comes back to bite you in the end.

3) If a team is going to try to reset the career of an OL who has struggled for a couple of years Fluker is a much better bet than Okung. Both much cheaper and much younger. Don't confuse being smart with being poor.

RE: Myth my ass  
Klaatu : 3/14/2017 9:49 am : link
In comment 13392447 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Reese and GM Jr could take a dump in the middle of Broadway and some of you would talk about the outstanding fragrance.


The King of Negative Spin Strikes Again!

RE: restructuring  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/14/2017 9:54 am : link
In comment 13392365 fkap said:
Quote:
the cap goes up every year.

so do players salaries.

you can't spend the cap increase on repaying the mortgage you restructured AND on increased salaries. It's one or the other.


Sorry, but I'm not willing to just put a caveat on this. If the cap goes up 3 million one year you can just pay for salary increases and not have any money left to meet obligations you may have pushed out into the future due to a contract restructuring.

If the cap goes up 10 million instead of 3 million, it still costs the 3 million to pay salary increases -- or let's say 5 million if the team having the extra cash spends more on increasing salaries -- and they still have 5 million to spend on any expense pushed into the future due to a contract restructure.

With 3 million one or the other; with 10 million, both.
Why does it have to be a spending spree  
pjcas18 : 3/14/2017 9:55 am : link
why couldn't it be one big free agent like Zeitler?

Assumptions are being made on both sides and none of you knows anything (me included).

The only way to answer the question is to get an answer to what I posed yesterday. "If the Giants had the Browns (or basically unlimited) cap space would they have signed anyone different?"

If the answer is yes, and the cost of that player on the 2017 cap is the difference between either JPP FT amount and a potential 2017 LT contract cap hit (say $9M) or letting JPP walk altogether then your answer is yes, JPP is limiting what the Giants can do in FA and want to do in FA.

If the answer is no, even with a billion dollars in cap space the Giants still just sign Marshall, Ellison, Fluker, Darkwa and Jerry then people are correct JPP FT is not impacting the team.

My sense is that it could be, especially with someone like Zeitler where he was a fit, a need, not some mediocre option or worse like Okung, and the Giants simply couldn't get into a bidding war, so maybe didn't even pursue him, but without knowing for sure, it's just an opinion.
RE: Why does it have to be a spending spree  
Milton : 3/14/2017 10:06 am : link
In comment 13392477 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
why couldn't it be one big free agent like Zeitler?
Zeitler would've been the one big ticket free agent who would fit he profile of someone the Giants would spend for. He is young enough and is coming off a Pro Bowl year. And it would seem that he fills a need.

But the Giants think more of John Jerry than many of us admit and who's to say what they think of Zeitler. The Bengals have $36M in cap space and let him leave.
the myth is that there  
giants#1 : 3/14/2017 10:12 am : link
are limited or no penalties to restructuring. Dallas restructures as many deals as anyone and part of their cap strategy is actually designed around these restructures (see Romo, Smith, Frederick). Yet, what FAs are they able to sign year in-year out? The Cowboys are supposed to be an example of how you can constantly manipulate (restructure) deals to sign anyone you want, yet this is their 2017 offseason:

Acquired
Re-signed Terrence Williams
Nolan Carroll
Damontre Moore
Stephen Paea

Lost
Ron Leary (starter)
Barry Church (starter)
Terrell McClain (starter)
Jack Crawford
Morris Claiborne (starter)
JJ Wilcox
Ryan Davis

They are also about to incur a ~$20M dead money cap charge due to numerous Romo restructures and their aging TE has a $12M cap number. Witten is no longer a $7.5M TE, but their options are cutting him (and having $4.5M in dead money) and needing to find a replacement or paying him the $7.5M.

And while the Smith/Frederick/Crawford continually restructured deals create lots of cap space each year, the backends of those contracts are starting to get ugly (especially Smith's). Smith is basically in Romo territory now with $18M in dead money if he's cut before 2018. And when they restructure his deal again next offseason to reduce his $17.5M 2018 cap hit, it's just going to push that huge liability further into the future while generating (proportionally) less available cap space. They better hope Smith stays healthy and continues to perform at an elite level for the next 5+ years, an eternity in the NFL.
RE: RE: Why does it have to be a spending spree  
giants#1 : 3/14/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13392492 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13392477 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


why couldn't it be one big free agent like Zeitler?

Zeitler would've been the one big ticket free agent who would fit he profile of someone the Giants would spend for. He is young enough and is coming off a Pro Bowl year. And it would seem that he fills a need.

But the Giants think more of John Jerry than many of us admit and who's to say what they think of Zeitler. The Bengals have $36M in cap space and let him leave.


I think the lack of interest in Zeitler is more about the need to sign Pugh/Richburg to extensions and not wanting to have 3 huge deals on interior OL guys, a position the Giants (like most teams) value less than OTs and several other offensive positions.

Of course, I have no way to prove it.
they did go for one big ticket player  
fkap : 3/14/2017 10:14 am : link
his name is JPP.

technically he never hit FA, but the effect is the same.
RE: they did go for one big ticket player  
giants#1 : 3/14/2017 10:17 am : link
In comment 13392498 fkap said:
Quote:
his name is JPP.

technically he never hit FA, but the effect is the same.


Yup! For some reason, people always ignore the re-signing of their own big ticket FAs!
pj  
djm : 3/14/2017 10:20 am : link
the Giants wouldn't gain THAT much cap space if they signed JPP long term. You're making it sound like they'd go from 6 million under to 20 million under. Eve if they did gain that much I don't think it's fair to assume that they'd go after Zietler. That seems way too simplistic or predicated on JPP signing long term. That's such a foolish way to operate. You really think the Giants based their entire offseason strategy on JPP signing long term? Cmon that's crazy. I'm sure they could gain the space they needed if they wanted to make a run at a player.

The Giants don't want to commit long term big money to any of the free agent OLinemen. IT's as simple as that.
like I said  
djm : 3/14/2017 10:21 am : link
JPP signed only for the short term actually gives the Giants more breathing room if you really think about it. It may take up more space now, but they have less commitment long term. Why would that stop the Giants from signing a guy like Zietler? They could move money around. They've done this kind of thing countless times before.
Are you people fucking with me?  
pjcas18 : 3/14/2017 10:38 am : link
no one forgot JPP, he's the whole point of the thread.

Is JPP being on the FT limiting what the Giants can do in FA? So when people suggest maybe the Giants would have signed a big $$ FA, one, it's obviously assuming JPP wasn't on the tag, so saying they did they signed JPP show a complete lack of understanding of the topic.

and I estimated the Giants could save $9M off JPP if he were signed to a LT contract as opposed to playing on the cap. Jenkins had an $8M cap hit last year. I just think the Giants can get creative with how they structure a JPP LT contract and limit the year 1 cap hit. If they want. Maybe they don't save $8M it's 7 or 6, they could still fit a significant FA under the cap if they wanted too by signing JPP LT and not having to cut or restructure anyone.

and wrt Zeitler, maybe the Giants like Zeitler more than Pugh.

And don't tell me the Giants value tackles more when they address the RT spot (so far) with Fluker or Bobby Hart. That sure screams "all-in" commitment.

and to reiterate, this is all opinion, no one can tell me they've drawn conclusive facts based on how the Giants have operated this off-season.

Lastly, I'm not saying the Giants did anything bad or wrong this off-season or should have done something different. and I didn't expect anything different.

I'm simply saying that while some people are strenuously trying to claim that JPP on the FT has had no impact on the Giants free agency plans that's bullshit to say as a fact.
JPP was priority one in FA; no doubt about it  
Go Terps : 3/14/2017 10:44 am : link
.
RE: RE: Myth my ass  
HomerJones45 : 3/14/2017 11:02 am : link
In comment 13392470 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13392447 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


Reese and GM Jr could take a dump in the middle of Broadway and some of you would talk about the outstanding fragrance.



The King of Negative Spin Strikes Again!

I'll admit it; I laughed.
RE: Myth my ass  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/15/2017 7:39 am : link
In comment 13392447 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Reese and GM Jr could take a dump in the middle of Broadway and some of you would talk about the outstanding fragrance.

Last season, these guys had to make up for poor drafting by throwing 200+ million around for defensive players, including the top three free agents available- an unprecedented sum spent on one side of the ball in FA-vaulting 3 players into the top 7 most highly paid at their positions.

This season, you are seeing what it is like having to shop in the bargain bin. First they had to franchise one of their top defensive players having set the market for top DE's and then failed to lock him up which cut into an already thin cap. Let's see what else they got:

- a 33 year old wideout who has been mediocre two of his last three seasons and a locker room problem who has worn out his welcome on 4 other teams. Maybe they can get a year of good behavior out of him. That at least has been his MO.

- a 29 year old lead blocker with a loquacious former player as a Dad who has caught a grand total of 50 passes in a 5 year career for less than a 10 yard average. On a team that threw nearly 600 passes last season, Ellison was targeted a mere 20 times. Oh, and the Vikes running game was worse than ours. The much hated Donnell caught 110 in one less year. Stumpy the TE caught 90 in the last two seasons.

- John Jerry. Enough said.

- DJ Fluker who was tried at both tackle positions and guard. San Diego dumped him before he got Rivers hospitalized again. No one in that division, who should be pretty familiar with Fluker, expressed any interest in him, looking elsewhere, anywhere else, for OL help.

There is your help for an offense that was terrible last season. A #1 pick bust reclamation project, a guy released from his last team due to age and a locker room fistfight, a meh player that everyone here wanted replaced and a role player. In a league where speed and quickness kills, we managed to get slower. If that isn't shopping Filene's basement, what is?

And before one of you starts with the "what else did you want them to do?", the answer is there is nothing they could do. They hamstrung themselves with poor drafts, lack of foresight, excess caution, and last season's big spending spree. Barring a miracle season from one of these guys, if I'm Eli, I'm looking for a landing place because they've already set him up as the fall guy.

This narrative is so tired. If the Giants had drafted Jenkins, Vernon and Harrison and they all became free agents last year, Reese still would have had to hand out those same contracts to retain them. Where I'll agree is that the only reason they had that cap room last year was because of their mediocre drafting for a stretch of time that left very few players worth keeping after their rookie deals.

IMO, where the Giants FO is most flawed isn't in the big contracts; it's in the small ones. For example, John Jerry is a JAG, and he just got a contract that takes up material cap space (with guaranteed money). That's where the poor drafting bites the Giants in the form of cap room. They should have their own pipeline of players to replace JAGs as they get to free agency. That's what the consistently good franchises do. That not only saves you a few million each year in cap room, it also generates compensatory picks when your free agents sign elsewhere and you can use your own roster to offset them.
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