Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

potential reason for no Pugh extension?

Andy in Boston : 3/15/2017 1:26 pm
Is it possible that the Giants may only extend Pugh OR Richburg? I wouldn't be surprised. Given that an OBJ extension is a given and with the big defensive contracts in addition to a possible JPP extension; I'm wondering if Giants brass want to see how the year goes, and who gets the higher grade out of the 2....and extend that one. They might just not be able to afford both...given the next 3-4 years. Thoughts?

and throw in guys like  
Andy in Boston : 3/15/2017 1:29 pm : link
Landon Collins, Hankins....unfortunately you just can't sign everybody.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/15/2017 1:30 pm : link
No. I think the only reason not to extend Pugh is if has a fourth year in a row where he can't stay on the field.

He hasn't played a full schedule since his rookie year.
I'd be reluctant to hand Pugh a big check  
jcn56 : 3/15/2017 1:30 pm : link
He's good, but he's been hurt a lot. If he's looking for top dollar, it might be worthwhile to look elsewhere.
RE: ...  
Andy in Boston : 3/15/2017 1:31 pm : link
In comment 13394021 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
No. I think the only reason not to extend Pugh is if has a fourth year in a row where he can't stay on the field.

He hasn't played a full schedule since his rookie year.


could be. But its also hard to extend everybody.
What's the rush?  
Giantology : 3/15/2017 1:31 pm : link
The Giants will have plenty of time to figure it all out.
RE: What's the rush?  
Andy in Boston : 3/15/2017 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13394027 Giantology said:
Quote:
The Giants will have plenty of time to figure it all out.


no real rush only that an extension to Pugh gives them a building block on the line to build around; and it frees up money for this year. They also have the leverage right now, as a long term deal put in front of him now, would be tough to turn down, (As I'm sure they would try to get a bargain with him) given that if he has a career threatening injury this year and isn't signed...he may never get a long term deal.
They might not extend either  
Vanzetti : 3/15/2017 1:36 pm : link
Richburg was not good last year. Maybe that was a product of the overall poor quality of the line. But the jury is out on him. He has yet to earn an extension. He needs to do that this year.

Pugh is a quality guard but has yet to prove he can stay healthy. Nagging injuries have limited his effectiveness at times. Giants probably will extend him because they are in win-now mode with Eli. But look at what a disaster Snee's contract turned out to be and Snee was way better than Pugh. Big contracts to interior lineman are not usually the best way to go, especially when there are injury concerns.

there is not really a reason to  
YorkAveGiant : 3/15/2017 1:36 pm : link
his cap hit is likely as low as it can possibly be. deal with it after the Parade...
Giants have an estimated $60M in 2018 cap space  
giants#1 : 3/15/2017 1:37 pm : link
per OTC. Given that, they can afford to sign both Richburg and Pugh. Rough 2018 cap numbers for those set to be FAs:

Beckham - $9M after option
JPP - $15M assuming long term extension
Pugh - $10M
Richburg - $8M
Total: $42M

So they could even add Hankins to the mix if they wanted.

2019 might be harder since Beckham's big deal will start then, but they'll have DRC's and BM's money coming off the books by then. They'll also be able to restructure/cut any of last year's additions if they need/want to. And as of now the only must signs are Collins and (hopefully) Flowers.
RE: What's the rush?  
RetroJint : 3/15/2017 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13394027 Giantology said:
Quote:
The Giants will have plenty of time to figure it all out.

That's the problem with Reese. He never figures it out. Before long Pugh will leave as an unrestricted free agent. He will become very rich. And he will be named All Pro. Doubt me? Let's wait and see.
RE: RE: What's the rush?  
Big Blue '56 : 3/15/2017 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13394042 RetroJint said:
Quote:
In comment 13394027 Giantology said:


Quote:


The Giants will have plenty of time to figure it all out.


That's the problem with Reese. He never figures it out. Before long Pugh will leave as an unrestricted free agent. He will become very rich. And he will be named All Pro. Doubt me? Let's wait and see.


Aside from possibly LinJo and Bennett, both cap strapped related, what hasn't Reese figured out that the other respected GMs have?
Retro,  
Brown Recluse : 3/15/2017 1:41 pm : link
Realistically - how many players have left the Giants and gone on to find more success elsewhere? If anything, the Giants do the exact opposite of what you're saying. They overvalue and overpay their own mediocre players.
Which I can see them doing with Pugh  
Brown Recluse : 3/15/2017 1:42 pm : link
.
Although weak at tackle  
bigblue12 : 3/15/2017 1:44 pm : link
there are some pretty good options at guard in this draft. I would not be opposed to drafting a guard in the early rounds and letting Pugh walk.
Likely in the minority here  
The_Boss : 3/15/2017 2:02 pm : link
But I'd move on from both Pugh and Richburg. While I realize that's not going to happen, Reese might have to choose one over the other. As former first and 2nd round picks (and in Pugh's case, drafted as an OT), neither have lived up to their draft status and likely neither seemingly will earn a trip to a Pro Bowl. Earlier in the season, Sy'56 questioned Richburg's long term viability at C. It's harder to find capable OT's, as we all know unfortunately, than OG's and competent OC's. I'd look to draft Pugh's replacement this year, perhaps in either round 1 or 2.
I agree with bigblue12......  
Doomster : 3/15/2017 2:02 pm : link
I think the Giants are hesitant to extend Pugh, because of injuries, and also because he is solid, but nothing special....

They may find a guard in the draft to replace him next year, and can groom him this year for that inevitability....

It's quite possible, this OL could still be in flux next year....especially if we are forced to use Flowers at LT, and the improvement is not there....
It's anti-Jay Glazer sentiment.  
FranknWeezer : 3/15/2017 2:03 pm : link
We can't give him the sense that he's succeeding in life by paying big $ to one of his proteges.
RE: RE: RE: What's the rush?  
HomerJones45 : 3/15/2017 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13394049 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13394042 RetroJint said:


Quote:


In comment 13394027 Giantology said:


Quote:


The Giants will have plenty of time to figure it all out.


That's the problem with Reese. He never figures it out. Before long Pugh will leave as an unrestricted free agent. He will become very rich. And he will be named All Pro. Doubt me? Let's wait and see.



Aside from possibly LinJo and Bennett, both cap strapped related, what hasn't Reese figured out that the other respected GMs have?
Figuring out who they want to extend and getting the extension done before they are in the last year of the contract so you are managing your cap down the road. They waited on JPP and now they've got $17 million in cap money tied up. They even waited on Manning for God's sakes. Between that and their love affair with 1 year "show me" deals and projects, they are constantly looking for the same positions over and over again.

In fairness to Reese, maybe this is more GM Jr. They got burnt with Cruz on an extension and Jr may be reluctant to extend players after that.
RE: ...  
Milton : 3/15/2017 2:27 pm : link
In comment 13394021 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
No. I think the only reason not to extend Pugh is if has a fourth year in a row where he can't stay on the field. He hasn't played a full schedule since his rookie year.
And his rookie year was marred by a serious concussion at the start of training camp (if I'm remembering correctly).

It's the concussions that concern me the most with him.
I agree with Eric and jcn56. Pugh is no given building block.  
Victor in CT : 3/15/2017 2:28 pm : link
he needs to show that he can play at a consistently high level for an entire 16 game season.
The concussion issues give me pause.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/15/2017 2:43 pm : link
At least as far as long term deals.
there is another factor to consider re Pugh's value  
TJ : 3/15/2017 3:03 pm : link
Pugh has played at an acceptable level at threee OL positions RT, LT, LG. In fact as of right now he may be the best OT or OG on the team. It might be said that's only true becasue the OL "sucks" but will the OL be so different when time to make the decision runs out?
you don't sign a player to an elite $$ deal becaue he's the best  
Victor in CT : 3/15/2017 3:06 pm : link
of a bad bunch. That leads to cap hell.
Pugh is one of the best when healthy  
est1986 : 3/15/2017 3:08 pm : link
So he will get his as soon as he can prove he is capable of staying healthy, which he hasnt done yet.
RE: Giants have an estimated $60M in 2018 cap space  
Diver_Down : 3/15/2017 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13394041 giants#1 said:
Quote:
per OTC. Given that, they can afford to sign both Richburg and Pugh. Rough 2018 cap numbers for those set to be FAs:

Beckham - $9M after option
JPP - $15M assuming long term extension
Pugh - $10M
Richburg - $8M
Total: $42M

So they could even add Hankins to the mix if they wanted.

2019 might be harder since Beckham's big deal will start then, but they'll have DRC's and BM's money coming off the books by then. They'll also be able to restructure/cut any of last year's additions if they need/want to. And as of now the only must signs are Collins and (hopefully) Flowers.


Odell's future contract is of no concern next year. The Giants will pick up the 5th year option (2018). They don't have to notify him until May. They can also kick the can in 2019 by Franchise tagging him. If he stays healthy and his production continues, then they'll back up the Brinks truck for 2020.
No 1 reason not to extend Pugh  
Diver_Down : 3/15/2017 3:23 pm : link
is he can't be counted on. Perhaps it is a lack of toughness and a bit of bad luck, but he has a continuous track record of missing games. His rookie year is the only year he played 16 games. The next year he missed games with a bruised quad, the next due to migraines, and this past year with a sprained knee. When he plays, he is our best OL. But with the trash that we trot out, it is no feather in the cap.

With the recent contracts handed out to interior OL, we have an idea what Pugh will be looking for. I would advocate drafting his replacement. If the rookie is competent and is not a detriment to starting, then cut Pugh after training camp. His 5th year option is guaranteed for injury only if he's on the final 53. You cut him and there is no cap hit.
go slow on Pugh  
Paulie Walnuts : 3/15/2017 3:47 pm : link
no reason to lock him up now, he needs to show he can play a full season

I see us drafting OT and OG this draft
and therein lies the rub  
HomerJones45 : 3/15/2017 4:07 pm : link
you don't wait for his last season to be a show me. If he has a great year, you either lose him, franchise him or pay a boatload for him to stay.

If you think he's a building block to your o-line, then you look to extend him. His injury history plays into his market value which is reflected in the extension price. If you don't think he's a building block now, then you have already made the decision to move on and you are looking for another guard, and that's the end of any extension talk for good.

What about a player like ODB? You know you want to keep him. Sure he's under contract for one more season and one option year but shouldn't the extension negotiations start now? Isn't this the point where the team has the most leverage and can negotiate a cap-friendly deal?
RE: and therein lies the rub  
jcn56 : 3/15/2017 4:15 pm : link
In comment 13394293 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
you don't wait for his last season to be a show me. If he has a great year, you either lose him, franchise him or pay a boatload for him to stay.

If you think he's a building block to your o-line, then you look to extend him. His injury history plays into his market value which is reflected in the extension price. If you don't think he's a building block now, then you have already made the decision to move on and you are looking for another guard, and that's the end of any extension talk for good.

What about a player like ODB? You know you want to keep him. Sure he's under contract for one more season and one option year but shouldn't the extension negotiations start now? Isn't this the point where the team has the most leverage and can negotiate a cap-friendly deal?


C'mon, you should have a better grasp of negotiating to know that two parties have to come to the table with an interest towards extending a deal.

Even if the Giants were 100% on extending Pugh last season, why would he do it? His market value would be lower than average because of his durability issues. Salary cap increases drive player salary inflation, combined with a dearth of quality OL play around the league has lead to these guys making ridiculous amounts of money, even at the bottom tier. Why would Pugh want to re-sign last season, when he had $8M on deck and an opportunity to try the FA waters the following year with richer pastures?

Similar for OBJ - aside from the risk of injury, why would these guys want to jump the gun on an extension unless it meant them getting paid at the top tier (and in OBJ's instance, probably the top paid WR in the league)?
potential reason for no Pugh extension?  
Torrag : 3/15/2017 4:45 pm : link
It's as simple as injury concerns. He hasn't been able to stay on the field consistently. And concussion problems for an OG is a tough sell for an organization.
RE: What's the rush?  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/15/2017 5:06 pm : link
In comment 13394027 Giantology said:
Quote:
The Giants will have plenty of time to figure it all out.


Like they had a Hankins. LinJo and JPP prior to his injury?

Reese has been shittybat managing the cap his whole career as a GM. Last year he finally had a shit ton of money and instantly had to spend like a drunken sailor to make up for his shitty draft run of 3 years. The guys Reese does hit on rarely get extended. The one he did extend Beatty was a dude who was another JAG who got top dollar.


Pugh if to be extended should have been done after year 3. He's most likely going to be isnanly over paid as a FA next year if this year is any indication. Shit he's going to get over 8 million this year and he's never sniffed a Pro bowl. Always banged up.

My guess if hey will re-up anyone it's Richberg. Cheaper. They honestly need 3 OL in this draft to prepare for the future. Jerry is a guy who can start if the rest of the line are studs. Otherwise he's around be wise Reese and his staff absolutely suck at drafting OL. Hart will be cheap to keep so let's all sell our first born children he does because there is zero depth. Fowers needs to step up big.

The D was insanly good last year. If the OL wasnt one of the worst they could have made a runat the SB. They. See two OL starters out of his draft more for the future than this year.
RE: RE: and therein lies the rub  
HomerJones45 : 3/15/2017 5:07 pm : link
In comment 13394303 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13394293 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


you don't wait for his last season to be a show me. If he has a great year, you either lose him, franchise him or pay a boatload for him to stay.

If you think he's a building block to your o-line, then you look to extend him. His injury history plays into his market value which is reflected in the extension price. If you don't think he's a building block now, then you have already made the decision to move on and you are looking for another guard, and that's the end of any extension talk for good.

What about a player like ODB? You know you want to keep him. Sure he's under contract for one more season and one option year but shouldn't the extension negotiations start now? Isn't this the point where the team has the most leverage and can negotiate a cap-friendly deal?



C'mon, you should have a better grasp of negotiating to know that two parties have to come to the table with an interest towards extending a deal.

Even if the Giants were 100% on extending Pugh last season, why would he do it? His market value would be lower than average because of his durability issues. Salary cap increases drive player salary inflation, combined with a dearth of quality OL play around the league has lead to these guys making ridiculous amounts of money, even at the bottom tier. Why would Pugh want to re-sign last season, when he had $8M on deck and an opportunity to try the FA waters the following year with richer pastures?

Similar for OBJ - aside from the risk of injury, why would these guys want to jump the gun on an extension unless it meant them getting paid at the top tier (and in OBJ's instance, probably the top paid WR in the league)?
Two reasons: security and stability. In Pugh's case, no reason to uproot the family and go somewhere and immediate bonus money and no cut because the 8 million in the last year seems to much for the team. Assuming they think he's a building block which I don't think they do.

In ODB's case, a player you know the team wants to keep, a large bonus check up front instead of waiting two years and a pay raise for the last two years. The team knows they have him locked up and can structure the deal to minimize the cap hit.

According to your theory, Antonio Brown shouldn't have agreed to a 4 year extension with the Steelers and the Steelers were stupid for tearing up his current contract.
Actually, my theory was pretty clear - they'd have to make  
jcn56 : 3/15/2017 5:14 pm : link
him the highest paid WR - which is exactly what the Steelers did.

As for Pugh? No family for him to worry about uprooting. Young guy working toward his second contract in a sellers market. By re-signing early he's hedging against another injury alone, there was literally 0% concern on his part that the Giants wouldn't pick up his option given their problems on the OL and the market in general.

You can't make a compelling argument for either one of these guys to re-sign on the cheap earlier because there isn't one. One of them is arguably the best or second best WR in the NFL and will be paid commensurately, and the other plays a position that is in great demand right now.
as several have said:  
fkap : 3/15/2017 5:19 pm : link
solid but not outstanding.

when you combine that with the injuries, you do NOT pay him a fortune. you draft a replacement.

that's the reality in today's NFL. players who are solid tend to get outrageous second contracts. there's only so many such contracts you can afford. Hopefully, with a new group dynamic in the draft department, we can start hitting on solid players so we aren't forced to re-sign a Pugh at high dollars.
Will Beatty was never paid top dollar  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/15/2017 6:20 pm : link
A long running BBI myth that has had to be dispelled more than oncee.
RE: Will Beatty was never paid top dollar  
jcn56 : 3/15/2017 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13394449 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
A long running BBI myth that has had to be dispelled more than oncee.


Yup, he was a middle of the pack player, he got paid middle of the pack money, and got hurt and didn't see the end of the contract. Absent a crystal ball to predict injuries, hard to avoid something like that.
RE: Will Beatty was never paid top dollar  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/15/2017 8:13 pm : link
In comment 13394449 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
A long running BBI myth that has had to be disp

elled more than oncee.


His second contract in 2013 he signed for 37.5 million. Not an bad number until you realize he got 19 million guaranteed. Which made him uncuttable. It was also one of the largest guarantees for an OL that year. It also paid him like a top tier tackle. I guess I missed all his Pro Bowls. Please remind me how many he had?

He was paid like a top 10 tackle. There wasn't another Tackle on the team or one who was out there in FA. That's the breaks but Saying it's been refuted which is your opinion which you contantly confuse w facts.
as I recall it  
fkap : 3/16/2017 8:32 am : link
Beatty got a very generous second contract higher than the going rate for FA T that year. Not outrageous, but as LM said, he was our best option. As is the norm, the going rate quickly passed him by, making it look like he was only moderately paid. But, it remains that he got a very good deal, and that guarantee was pretty damn good at the time (it still is).
Back to the Corner