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NFT: NBA/Knicks Chat 3/16

giantsfan44ab : 3/16/2017 9:37 am
Brace for the win tonight.

Last night was another step closer in sorting out the playoff hunt.

-Wizards drop to Mavs at home, Boston is building a comfortable lead (and supposedly has the easiest remaining schedule in the NBA)

-Barnes 22 and 9, Dirk 20. Wall 26 and 11, Beal 24 and 5

-Paul George with 39. Frank the tank with 20, but of course Charlotte got dominated on the glass.

-IT with 27, horford a near triple double (20, 8 and 9). Rubio 23 and 7

-Hayward 25, 6 and 9.

-Miami wants a playoff spot. Dragic 33, Whiteside 20 and 17. AD 27,8 and 3

-Portland beats SA in SA. Dame 36, CJ 26, Nurk 16 and 9 (but with possible the worst 90 second stretch of basketball I've ever seen. With 2 minutes to go, he misses 3 layup/dunks, misses 2 free throws, missed 2 defensive rotations, inexplicably fumbled another easy layup out of bounds and threw away an inbounds pass to allow SAS back into the game).

-Kawhi 34, 6 and 9. 3 st;s and 2 blks. LMA made a return, good to see things are alright with him

-Houston routs LAL as anyone could've called. Harden trip doub. Luu Williams with 30 and 7. Randle with 32.

-Grizz beat Bulls. Can't imagine thats a fun game to watch. Gasol/Conley with 27 and 7

-Milwaukee also wants a playoff spot. They are like 15 and 4 when Middleton plays, and he's been on a minutes restriction until late. Beating good teams too.

-The crap bowl: Kings move ahead of us in the standings.

-Skal with 32 and 11. he's a very real NBA player.
-WCS 14, 14, 5. 4 steals and 4 blocks
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Literally one of the most absurd things I've heard basketball  
giantsfan44ab : 3/16/2017 11:39 pm : link
related.

I wouldn't trade being a browns fan or a TB rays fan with being a Nets fan. There's no American professional sports team with a bleaker outlook than the Brooklyn Nets.
Isaac does look pretty damn smooth out there.  
bceagle05 : 3/16/2017 11:40 pm : link
An Isaac/KP front court combo is something to dream about.
RE: Isaac does look pretty damn smooth out there.  
giantsfan44ab : 3/16/2017 11:47 pm : link
In comment 13395943 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
An Isaac/KP front court combo is something to dream about.


Try getting a board over Willy/KP/Isaac (post-weight room and a few NY strips).
RE: Nets are not as bad as record  
Deej : 3/17/2017 7:49 am : link
In comment 13395931 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
They are a bottom tier team but with Lin they are a mid twenties win team (still brutal)
Culture will eventually breed greatness.
I don't think its out of hand to feel better about the 2020 nets then the 2020 knicks


Your theory is that Jeremy Lin is a 10 win player?

In any event, the Nets have no young stud and dont own their 2017 and 2018 picks. New free agency rules make it very hard to acquire star players. So your only argument could be that the Knicks utterly blow it over the next 4 years, both losing and not reaping rewards from the draft. Oh, shit...
RE: RE: Nets are not as bad as record  
kelsto811 : 3/17/2017 7:56 am : link
In comment 13396041 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13395931 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


They are a bottom tier team but with Lin they are a mid twenties win team (still brutal)
Culture will eventually breed greatness.
I don't think its out of hand to feel better about the 2020 nets then the 2020 knicks



Your theory is that Jeremy Lin is a 10 win player?

In any event, the Nets have no young stud and dont own their 2017 and 2018 picks. New free agency rules make it very hard to acquire star players. So your only argument could be that the Knicks utterly blow it over the next 4 years, both losing and not reaping rewards from the draft. Oh, shit...


Yes Jeremy Lin can account for a +5/10 in the standings column with the alternative the Nets were trotting out. Sean Kilkpatrick? Sean Dinwiddie? The added factor of the Lin/Lopez combo on the pnr alone helps swing games/momentum for the Nets. Plus there bench has been playing better with Lin back. The Nets are a shit team but they aren't as shitty as everyone thinks.
Their*  
kelsto811 : 3/17/2017 7:56 am : link
:)
No, he cant  
Deej : 3/17/2017 8:03 am : link
there isnt a world where Jeremy Lin is a 10 win player. His best year was 5.4 wins (i.e net 4.2 over this season), and that was 4 years ago. Lets acknowledge what a 10 win player is. Last year, guys who were roughly 10 win players were: Whiteside, Aldridge, Millsap, Kemba, Derozan, Thomas.

Jeremy Lin is no more a 10 win player than Carmelo is an All-NBA defender.
I have a lot of respect  
bceagle05 : 3/17/2017 8:06 am : link
for what the Nets are doing - I'd trade front offices and coaching staffs with them in a heartbeat. They're facing some long odds though. If the Knicks dump Rose and Melo and add Tatum/Isaac/SmithJr/etc. in the draft, all of a sudden the culture will improve by leaps and bounds.
RE: Nets are not as bad as record  
BigBlueShock : 3/17/2017 8:06 am : link
In comment 13395931 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
They are a bottom tier team but with Lin they are a mid twenties win team (still brutal)
Culture will eventually breed greatness.
I don't think its out of hand to feel better about the 2020 nets then the 2020 knicks

Your obsession with the Nets "culture" is absolutely hysterical. I mean, I guess it's all you have, since the team is abysmal and has no picks until 2049, but I think it's a bit much. No, it's a lot much.
RE: No, he cant  
kelsto811 : 3/17/2017 8:06 am : link
In comment 13396048 Deej said:
Quote:
there isnt a world where Jeremy Lin is a 10 win player. His best year was 5.4 wins (i.e net 4.2 over this season), and that was 4 years ago. Lets acknowledge what a 10 win player is. Last year, guys who were roughly 10 win players were: Whiteside, Aldridge, Millsap, Kemba, Derozan, Thomas.

Jeremy Lin is no more a 10 win player than Carmelo is an All-NBA defender.


"This season, the Nets are 7-16 with Lin, whoís been on minutesí restriction all season long, and 6-38 without him."

All I'm saying is, you can make the argument hitdog is making easily. There's evidence to back it up.
Link - ( New Window )
Yeah, Lin makes sure to lace them up  
Deej : 3/17/2017 8:30 am : link
against the hapless Knicks.

That's pretty scant evidence. We know what a 10 win player looks like, and it's not Lin. If it was Lin, he wouldnt be on his 6th team in 7 years.
RE: Yeah, Lin makes sure to lace them up  
kelsto811 : 3/17/2017 8:35 am : link
In comment 13396071 Deej said:
Quote:
against the hapless Knicks.

That's pretty scant evidence. We know what a 10 win player looks like, and it's not Lin. If it was Lin, he wouldnt be on his 6th team in 7 years.


Okay you are right. Screw the facts just presented to you. Because he beat the Knicks twice, not like other "10 win players" face the Knicks right? Nevermind that a 10 win player on a team with little talent is probably different from a 10 win player on a team like the Spurs, for example. When the guy plays, he matched the Nets win total for the entire season in half the games played. He improves the Nets, that was the entire point of the comment to begin with.
Problem for Lin  
nygiants16 : 3/17/2017 8:55 am : link
when he gets hurt he takes his sweet time coming back, dude will not play hurt..

also i dont care how good your culture is, if you do not have the players you are not going to win and no one is leaving money on the table to go to the nets..

also they will not control their first round picks so how do you expect to get a young stud and build your team?

knicks already have a young stud and are going to add to it this year and probably next year, so they would already be ahead of the nets by 3 years in their rebuild..

nets rebuild wont start until after next season
RE: RE: Yeah, Lin makes sure to lace them up  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 8:59 am : link
In comment 13396074 kelsto811 said:
Quote:
In comment 13396071 Deej said:


Quote:


against the hapless Knicks.

That's pretty scant evidence. We know what a 10 win player looks like, and it's not Lin. If it was Lin, he wouldnt be on his 6th team in 7 years.



Okay you are right. Screw the facts just presented to you. Because he beat the Knicks twice, not like other "10 win players" face the Knicks right? Nevermind that a 10 win player on a team with little talent is probably different from a 10 win player on a team like the Spurs, for example. When the guy plays, he matched the Nets win total for the entire season in half the games played. He improves the Nets, that was the entire point of the comment to begin with.


Let's take that logic you are using.

The Mavericks started the season 17-30.

The Mavericks are 12-8 since they signed Yogi Ferrell. Using those win %s over an 82 game season, yogi is therefore a 20 win player.

The Nets fucking cut a 20 win player who is 23 years old, 10 games into the season.

What a joke of an organization.
Lopez has missed five games this year.  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 9:14 am : link
In those five games, the Nets are 0-5. Brook Lopez certainly will not be on this team in 2 years, maybe not even 1. There is "hard evidence" that the Nets can't win a game without Lopez.

Forget Lin, the nets are a 0 win team without brook. That's the logic you are using.

The Nets are 5 years from being where the Orlando Magic and the Sacramento Kings are right now. Buckle up, it's going to be a rough, rough ride. If you are a Nets fan, now is the time to advocate theories like the NBA is rigged or how the players don't care about playing hard. Not that the Nets are onto something big.

Go root for the browns in the meantime. They have more hope.
Correction  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 9:16 am : link
The Nets are 0-14 without brook over the last two years.
I'd take the Knicks  
Metnut : 3/17/2017 9:33 am : link
over the Nets in 2020-2022 and beyond just because the Knicks have vastly better assets but its not a foregone conclusion. The Nets coach & GM look vastly superior to the Knicks IMO and coach & GM (especially!) matters.

It'll be a challenge for them to improve but the Spurs havn't had a high pick in decades so it's not impossible. They have two late firsts in a deep draft this year which would be a nice place for them to start. I'd feel better about the Knicks if they committed to rebuild but there's a chance they overpay mediocre guys this offseason and doom themselves for another cycle unless they get a perennial all-star in this year's draft.

It would be great for NY basketball to see both teams good for a 5 year stretch.
Zach Lowe on Derrick Rose:  
Enzo : 3/17/2017 9:35 am : link
Quote:
Derrick Rose is among the half-dozen worst defenders among all full-time starters. He's either lazy, clueless, or both. The Knicks should not re-sign him unless his market collapses into nothingness.

"lazy" and "clueless"? Sounds familiar....

Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Yeah, Lin makes sure to lace them up  
Deej : 3/17/2017 9:37 am : link
In comment 13396074 kelsto811 said:
Quote:
In comment 13396071 Deej said:


Quote:


against the hapless Knicks.

That's pretty scant evidence. We know what a 10 win player looks like, and it's not Lin. If it was Lin, he wouldnt be on his 6th team in 7 years.



Okay you are right. Screw the facts just presented to you. Because he beat the Knicks twice, not like other "10 win players" face the Knicks right? Nevermind that a 10 win player on a team with little talent is probably different from a 10 win player on a team like the Spurs, for example. When the guy plays, he matched the Nets win total for the entire season in half the games played. He improves the Nets, that was the entire point of the comment to begin with.


I wont belabor the point that others have made with the Yogi and Lopez win "facts". You cant extrapolate W-L differentials in games a guy played, especially over a sample size, in the manner you suggest.
RE: I'd take the Knicks  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 9:41 am : link
In comment 13396142 Metnut said:
Quote:
over the Nets in 2020-2022 and beyond just because the Knicks have vastly better assets but its not a foregone conclusion. The Nets coach & GM look vastly superior to the Knicks IMO and coach & GM (especially!) matters.

It'll be a challenge for them to improve but the Spurs havn't had a high pick in decades so it's not impossible. They have two late firsts in a deep draft this year which would be a nice place for them to start. I'd feel better about the Knicks if they committed to rebuild but there's a chance they overpay mediocre guys this offseason and doom themselves for another cycle unless they get a perennial all-star in this year's draft.

It would be great for NY basketball to see both teams good for a 5 year stretch.


You need stars to win first and foremost. Not culture. KP gives you hope for that. No one on the Nets does. I wouldn't trade any of the Knicks upcoming picks or Willy for anyone on the Nets (although I'm a RHJ fan, but it's hard seeing him being anything more than a 4th option on a good team). Lavert is decent.

Saying that about the Spurs neglects the fact that the entire dynasty was founded ontop of 2 #1 overall picks who became 2 top 20 all time players. It's just very ignorant to bring up the Spurs model without acknowledging how it all started.

Even Kawhi was a lottery pick. The Nets don't have one of those for another 2 years.
RE: Zach Lowe on Derrick Rose:  
Deej : 3/17/2017 9:42 am : link
In comment 13396151 Enzo said:
Quote:


Quote:


Derrick Rose is among the half-dozen worst defenders among all full-time starters. He's either lazy, clueless, or both. The Knicks should not re-sign him unless his market collapses into nothingness.


"lazy" and "clueless"? Sounds familiar.... Link - ( New Window )


Clueless yes. I think he's dumber than a brick. Maybe the NBA's Pedro Guerrerro. I dont think I'd use the word lazy; rather I think he's made a conscious decision to save his body for UFA this season. Thus, he drive to the hoops but avoids contact (when compared to previous season). And on D he plays off, and while he "fights thru screens" b/c that is the scheme, he doesnt do it with abandon.
Ferrel turned out to be a tough loss for the Nets  
kelsto811 : 3/17/2017 9:43 am : link
And a good player for the Mavs, in fact a huge add for them, so I'm not really sure what you are arguing.

I don't really care about how you guys classify a "10 win player", the truth is the Nets have won 6 games with Lin playing and 7 without him. So back to the original point, yes I believe the Nets could be a mid twenties win team if Lin played a full season.
Nets fans are cute.  
Keith : 3/17/2017 9:57 am : link
Who have the Nets beaten with Lin? Knicks twice. Great job. Sacramento. Solid win. Detroit. Who else?

That link above about the Knicks defense, that's Melo in a nutshell. Damning video and says all you need to know.
Rose has completely given up on defense.  
Keith : 3/17/2017 9:59 am : link
Early on in the season he played hard. He made some mistakes because he can be pretty dumb on defense, but he did play hard. Now? Not so much. He doesn't even try anymore because he knows it's a waste of energy and a risk to his future. I don't think the Knicks are dumb enough to even consider bringing him back and if they do, it will be a monumentally bad decision. I do think you can build a team around Rose like the Bulls of 5 years ago, but it cannot be here.
RE: Rose has completely given up on defense.  
Enzo : 3/17/2017 10:01 am : link
In comment 13396191 Keith said:
Quote:
I do think you can build a team around Rose like the Bulls of 5 years ago, but it cannot be here.

sure, in the Chinese league.
Knicks fans and Nets fan arguing over whose future isn't the worst  
Greg from LI : 3/17/2017 10:06 am : link
has got to be the saddest argument I've ever seen.
The whole Nets culture thing is way overblown. It has 3 pieces  
Deej : 3/17/2017 10:15 am : link
1) Apparently last year guys were just showing up late for practice, shoot around, meetings etc with no consequences.

2) As a point of comparison to the Knicks, who I agree, are getting killed by a terrible culture both on the team and at MSG generally.

3) And finally, it's a sales gimmick to give some hope to a particularly hopeless team, because of the losing and lack of picks.

The notion that the Nets have weaponized "culture" is pretty laughable. Indeed, a number of the early quotes are about "a culture of winning" when these guys will finish last in the NBA
RE: Knicks fans and Nets fan arguing over whose future isn't the worst  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 10:21 am : link
In comment 13396204 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
has got to be the saddest argument I've ever seen.


I'm arguing whether the Nets, the Orlando magic or the Cleveland browns have the worst future. And it's the Nets by a longshot.

Kulish, my point is that using your argument, the Nets aren't going to win a game when Lopez gets traded/walks in FA. It's a dumb argument used on limited sample size. The Nets are still the worst NBA team with or without Lin.

And my point was also Yogi is not a 20 win player. Very good , yes. A better asset than Jeremy Lin, no question. But he by himself is not a 20 win player. Just like how Lin isn't a 10 win player. You put him on the Spurs, he's a replacement player that doesn't add any value.
Losing to the Nets twice  
Deej : 3/17/2017 10:22 am : link
is doing wonders for our draft position, obviously. Basketball reference quantifies it using 7500 simulations of the rest of the season. We are now:

5.2% to draft #1 overall
19.5% to draft top 3
63.5% to draft top 7
83.9% to draft top 8
98% to draft top 10

As of now I have three top tiers -- 3 guys, then 4 guys, then another 4 guys. So either a 3/5 or 4/5 chance we get a crack at one of those top 7 guys (since even at #8 there is a decent shot someone takes a player out of my top 7; e.g. DX has my Isaac at #9 when I have him at 6/7).
RE: RE: Rose has completely given up on defense.  
Sgrcts : 3/17/2017 10:34 am : link
In comment 13396194 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13396191 Keith said:


Quote:


I do think you can build a team around Rose like the Bulls of 5 years ago, but it cannot be here.


sure, in the Chinese league.


Rose would be a monster in China.
Yep, if we had won either of the Nets games  
bceagle05 : 3/17/2017 10:35 am : link
we'd be 5-7 since the All-Star Break - far too competitive at this point when ping pong balls are at stake. Much better to be 4-8 since the break, with a brutal schedule to close out the year.
Isaac finished with  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 10:59 am : link
17, 10, 5, 2 Blocks, 3 steals. Markannen with 20.
25 points for Dwayne Bacon, too.  
bceagle05 : 3/17/2017 11:02 am : link
Barkley says Bacon's his favorite guy in the tournament, though Barkley probably watches five minutes of college basketball prior to March.
Even if we lose out (and I hope we do)  
Carl in CT : 3/17/2017 11:16 am : link
We still won't be any better than the 6th worst team going into the lottery. Anything can happen, but time will tell save the date May 16th and hope the gods shine on us.
We'll most likely be at seven.  
bceagle05 : 3/17/2017 11:25 am : link
I just want to keep losing so we're closer to six than we are to eight. I don't trust the Pelicans - throw Cousins onto a team and there's no telling what can happen.
RE: Even if we lose out (and I hope we do)  
Deej : 3/17/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13396363 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
We still won't be any better than the 6th worst team going into the lottery.


Not necessarily. If we dont win another game, there is a decent chance we leapfrog PHI and ORL. Probably not LAL (which is sitting everyone to save the pick) and PHX (just sat Bledsoe).

Philly plays ORL, CHIx2, BKx2, and NY down the stretch.

Orlando plays PHI, BKx2, and CHI.

Seems like Philly has an easier schedule, so you probably root for them to beat the Magic on Monday.
It'll be interesting  
bceagle05 : 3/17/2017 11:36 am : link
to see where things stand once this brutal four-game road trip ends. If we're in position to jump a team or two, it's time to pull the plug on Melo and Rose.
Bacon could be a nice player for someone  
Greg from LI : 3/17/2017 11:38 am : link
Probably goes in the 20s.
This Lakers pick situation is unbelievable  
Deej : 3/17/2017 11:45 am : link
They're about 50-50 right now to lose the pick, and if they do it will be the 4 or 5 pick going to Philly.

50-50 Philly gets to choose two of Smith, Markkanen, Jackson/Tatum, or Isaac (or Fox/Monk if they want), with about a 30% shot of upgrading one of those picks to a top 3 pick (rought 10% to pick each of #1, #2, or #3). So there is a legit chance they come out with Fultz/Ball plus Tatum/Isaac/Monk
Next year's class  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 11:49 am : link
overall isn't supposed to be as good as this years, but some people believe the top end talent may be better.

So if the Lakers do keep their pick, philly could realistically have 2 top 3/4 picks in a draft where the picks are supposedly going to be even better than this year (unprotected Kings and lakers pick).
Stop me if you've heard this before - Dolan's a fucking asshole...  
bceagle05 : 3/17/2017 12:01 pm : link
Quote:
At a Knicks game late in 2012, Andariese, 73, just retired and showing symptoms of growing dementia, was honored with the Dick McGuire Knicks Legacy Award.

As Andariese and his family walked to center court from their seats, close to Dolanís, Dolan never made a move to congratulate or even acknowledge him. Same after the ceremony. When Andariese returned to his seat, Dolan just sat there.

Andarieseís family was furious with Dolanís complete disregard for a man who had so well served the Garden, its customers, cable subscribers, radio listeners and employees for over 35 years.

And so, two years later, while that was still infuriating to Andarieseís family, what happened wasnít surprising.

The Basketball Hall of Fame had selected Andariese as the winner of the Curt Gowdy Award for broadcasting excellence. Andariese, by then forced to use a walker, was in the house for a Knicks game ó again seated near Dolan ó when he was shown on the big screen as per his Hall of Fame honor. An ovation began, then grew. Andariese was moved. Dolan didnít move. Again, he couldnít be bothered.

Mushnick - ( New Window )
Covington  
DanMetroMan : 3/17/2017 12:04 pm : link
is becoming a defensive beast. He's been worth 2.8 dws, for context Tony Allen (arguably the best defensive wing of the past decade) has had "only" 3 seasons where he was worth more. Embiid obviously makes a difference but the Sixers are going to be fine either way. They will have to actively try to fuck things up for it to not work out.
Sixers are fine even if  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 12:12 pm : link
Embiid never sets foot on the court again. Holmes is legit. He's been shooting 3s. Can protect the rim. Simmons in summer league showed he can make the most out of Holmes, finding him spots to get him the ball for easy scores.

Add 3 more top 5 picks over the next two years to Simmons, saric, Holmes, Covington and anderson, people will forget about Embiid.

If Embiid gets healthy, lord have mercy.
Dolan is a very small and petty man  
Deej : 3/17/2017 12:13 pm : link
I assume it comes from him knowing that all that he has is because his father was successful, and his fear that everyone else believes that.
Take  
DanMetroMan : 3/17/2017 12:45 pm : link
him Phil!
Link - ( New Window )
RE: No, he cant  
Mike in NJ : 3/17/2017 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13396048 Deej said:
Quote:
there isnt a world where Jeremy Lin is a 10 win player. His best year was 5.4 wins (i.e net 4.2 over this season), and that was 4 years ago. Lets acknowledge what a 10 win player is. Last year, guys who were roughly 10 win players were: Whiteside, Aldridge, Millsap, Kemba, Derozan, Thomas.

Jeremy Lin is no more a 10 win player than Carmelo is an All-NBA defender.


Jeremy Lin doesn't have to be a 10 win player to make the Nets 10 games better than what they have been. He only has to be 10 games better than who the Nets are playing in his absence. Is he 10 games better than Dinwiddie and Kilpatrick? Most definitely not, but he might be 5 games better....
I'll buy that Lin could be a 5 win player  
Deej : 3/17/2017 1:15 pm : link
at his near-best.
Even if Lin=5 more wins the  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 1:15 pm : link
Nets are still the worst team in the league.

And those wins aren't coming from 22 year olds the Nets can build off of. They are coming from vets that won't be there in 3 years.
The Nets can sign Dwayne wade  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 1:17 pm : link
To a 4 year deal and win 30 games, but it doesn't mean anything because they can build off of Wades production long term.
*cant  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 1:17 pm : link
.
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