$$$$$$. Cowboys are strapped. They were never going after JPP asany proposed. IMO the Jags would have grabbed him over Campbell. No pass rush and ow w no secondary they are fucked if they don't win TOP by a lot next year
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
It's worth noting, though, that they lost the worse 2/5 of their OL. The 3 guys remaining are absolute studs.
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
Washington's actually in good cap shape. Philly was pretty tight entering this offseason, IIRC.
they weren't great for the Cowboys but they will have to find replacements and get that continuity back. I also think they over achieved on defense last year mainly because they ran the ball so well on offense. A fresh defense makes a world of difference.
Aren't Dallas in a half decent cap situation at the moment
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
It's worth noting, though, that they lost the worse 2/5 of their OL. The 3 guys remaining are absolute studs.
I'd argue getting La'el Collins back is an upgrade at one of those last 2 positions.
Played really well at the end of the year. A loaded CB class this year in draft will help Cowboys reload in draft. Carr was overpaid and underperformed the entire time he was at Dallas.
Claiborne could never stay healthy but had a really good year in 2016.
Cowboys need to have a strong draft to reload roster after all these FA losses.
As for the secondary, they got the guy from Philly who is probably better than Carr. Claiborne just struggles staying on the field so I can see why the cowboys didn't want to unload their wallets to him. I'm sure Dallas will pick up another CB in free agency and not rely totally on the draft.
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
It's worth noting, though, that they lost the worse 2/5 of their OL. The 3 guys remaining are absolute studs.
I'd argue getting La'el Collins back is an upgrade at one of those last 2 positions.
When viewed in the correct context they're huge losses. Let's start with Clairborne, he had the bust tag after his first three seasons and then it all came together and he played extremely well for them two seasons ago. Last season was a wash out as he was hurt. Big loss. As for Carr, I never thought much of him but he's coming off of one of his best seasons, now maybe that was because he was playing for a new contract but the bottom line is the Cowboys just lost their two best Corners.
Add this on top of them losing both of their starting Safeties and I don't see how anyone can conclude anything other than that their defensive personnel has taken a huge step in the wrong direction.
Only Barry Church as Byron Jones started and performed very well at FS in 2016 for the Cowboys. They will miss Church but not Wilcox as JEFF Heath played more at the end of the year than Wilcox.
Not saying those 2 were great OL, the remaining 3 are all studs, but still hurts continuity and need to replace those guys. Really, the secondary losses hurt DAL the most. Just looking on the bright side - many here would kill the Giants front office if our offseason looked like that. And they probably should have some cap room, especially because they are still carrying Romo hoping for a trade I guess. But there's not much help out there at CB/S - and while Carrol is probably a solid starter (also Scandrick), they aren't top end CBs and the lack necessary depth for current NFL. Who's covering OBJ, Shep & Marshall? B Jones had a solid year, but like our chances with the rest of their DBs with Giant's weapons.
Didn't realize that WAS had a lot of space and Phi little - I may have flipped them in my head. Regardless, WAS lost 2 top WRs, and while they pulled 1 back (there were a decent amount of WRs out there this FA), there will still be a downgrade (plus Jackson always killed us - I'll take our chances with Jenkins on Pryor - maybe a new OBJ/Norman type feud? I'd argue we've had the best offseason so far in the division, though that could still change (if DAL pulls something big for Romo, not likely). We didn't land a top OT to solidify our line, but I like the dice rolls in the lower $ pool, and really like the Ellison/Marshall signings. Seems like they got good fits for what they need (blocking from FB/TE, big WR). With some good coaching and playcalling/schemes, hopefully can cover the OL deficiencies, get the run game at least average, and the D should be close to last year (even w/o Hankins & Robinson)
the arguments for why they let some of those guys leave, and how they may have some answers in house - but it's a lot of questions for one team. And other teams thought those players that left were good enough to sign, some for decent $. They lost some DL depth too - all adds up.
It's funny, this is a Giants site, but many posters are negative towards most of the Giants moves - but bring up issues on a division rival like Dallas, and people pop up all over to defend them. Or else people just look on the positive side for DAL issues/turnover, but the negative side for Giants.
& Claiborne,neither whom played well. They signed Carroll, who was the Eagles best Corner last season. They lost a back/up guard . And an overpaid offensive tackle, really the weak link in their pick up schemes, retired. They signed a quick DT. They extended a wide receiver who did not come cheaply.
They have a defensive lineman, Irving, who along with Hunter on Minbesota, are the two emerging defensive- line monsters in the game. How did they find Irving ? While looking at his college teammate Lawrence. They have in Lee one of the best inside linebackers in the game. In the secondary , Brown and Jones are two young talents that they think will be around for years ..
On offense....well ...they are rather talented . So they are not going away. And they were not and are not in cap hell. Dallas does a good job of finding lower-round and street -free -agent talent . Unlike the Giants, who can only acquire talent by overpaying for expensive free agents and hitting on their early round draft choices , some of whom are allowed to leave.
Who of talent do the Gisnts have locked up for the next 3 years? The guys they spent about 200 million for. Hankins left. Pugh and Richburg will probably both leave after next season. They spent 18 million for a TE who has 55 career catches over 5 seasons , with 3 touchdowns . So, really, do you want to harp about roster formation?
The Giants starved a Hall-of-Fame coach, who went four seasons employing attrition-model strategies. That same coach is spending his sacks off in Jacksonville That's how Coughlin views roster formation . Then to make it look good , the Giants went on a wild spending spree one fine March day in 16. But with each passing season, they will spend less and less because of that spree. More attrition-model strategies to follow .
Which teams figures better over a 1, 3 & 5 year projection? Who will be throwing to Beckham in 3 years ?
is done to be able to be more negative on the giants.
When you spin buying an eagles cornerback that played last year as a positive, you are clearly trying to frame a very particular point your way.
If the Giants had the Cowboys secondary right now people would be jumping off the GW bridge. It's not good, got worse than the last two years, and neither is their pass rush for the third year in a row.
They are counting on their offense to yet again control the ball and hide their defense as much as possible.
who was responsible for hanging on to guys like Snee and Dheil too long? TC was intimately involved in the roster formation. The Giants a near the cap every year - this isn't the Bengals or Browns or Jacksonville we're talking about.
over the next 1,3 or 5 years? Didn't we beat them twice? Maybe we regress and split this year but we match-up absolutely perfectly with them and their QB can't do anything about it.
Then Collins is a RFA after 2017, Zack Martin is a FA after 2017, Whitten is a FA after 2017 (although likely just about done for his career), and they will have to pay Prescott by 2019.
They are going to be handing out some big contracts next year just to keep their O-Line in tact which they have no choice in doing if they want to continue to contend.
So yeah, I'd say its a crapshoot over the next 1-5 years on how the two teams fare.
Not sure being the eagles best cornerback counts for that much
That'd be like getting excited for obtaining the best quarterback on the Texans last year. Reality is for their time in Dallas both Claiborne and Carr failed to live up to their billing. However they both played well for Dallas last year and were their two best corners. From all that I have read they both outperformed Carroll. They both made pffs top 25 corners list for 2016, and also were both graded higher(by a good margin) in the NFL1000 gradings.
The starters at this point would be Scandrick and Brown with Carroll in the slot. The fourth CB is Leon McFadden who is a JAG who played 9 games last year. The Dallas secondary will be alright if Carroll is no better then the 5th CB and McFadden isn't on the roster.
The safeties consist of Jones, Heath, and Frazier. Kavon Frazier is a clone of Wilcox, a big hitter, but needs to improve in pass coverage. Jeff Heath should be no better then a top special players and depth at the position. If Heath is getting significant time or starting, Dallas has done a bad job in the off season on addressing the losses to the safety position.
Dallas had a very good draft in 2016, but this years draft will probably be more important for the teams future success. The defense needs to be addressed early and often. With the large departure of defense players Dallas needs to acquire at least 2 CBs, 1 safety, 2 DL, and 1 OL, that's six players. Considering Dallas has 7 draft picks, they have to be perfect in every round.
Marinelli has done a great job getting the most out of a defense that most observers believe is average to below average year after year, but constantly exceeds expectations. Next year will be no different for Marinelli.
The good news is Dallas will get a couple of red shirt players from 2016 Jaylon Smith and Charles Tapper that can be big contributors in 2017.
It's not impossible for Dallas to overcome these losses this year, but it will be a huge challenge. The draft is the key. Dallas has drafted well recently, they can't afford an off year this year.
Many ways sonny boy. Many, many ways...
$$$$$$. Cowboys are strapped. They were never going after JPP asany proposed. IMO the Jags would have grabbed him over Campbell. No pass rush and ow w no secondary they are fucked if they don't win TOP by a lot next year
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
It's worth noting, though, that they lost the worse 2/5 of their OL. The 3 guys remaining are absolute studs.
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
Washington's actually in good cap shape. Philly was pretty tight entering this offseason, IIRC.
OTC has them at $8,095,070 in space just now with up to $14 million available if they June 1st Romo.
scandrick is better in the slot, they need another corner
They also lost DT McClain.
Unfortunately, this is supposedly a deep CB draft so they could potentially reload the secondary quickly.
OTC has them at $8,095,070 in space just now with up to $14 million available if they June 1st Romo.
Too late. There just aren't the players out there to sign to make up for their losses.
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from Phi - he and Scandrick should be fine right?
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
It's worth noting, though, that they lost the worse 2/5 of their OL. The 3 guys remaining are absolute studs.
I'd argue getting La'el Collins back is an upgrade at one of those last 2 positions.
Claiborne could never stay healthy but had a really good year in 2016.
Cowboys need to have a strong draft to reload roster after all these FA losses.
As for the secondary, they got the guy from Philly who is probably better than Carr. Claiborne just struggles staying on the field so I can see why the cowboys didn't want to unload their wallets to him. I'm sure Dallas will pick up another CB in free agency and not rely totally on the draft.
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In comment 13395529 Cenotaph said:
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from Phi - he and Scandrick should be fine right?
Cowboys lost 4 of top 5 DB's from last year, when they actually had a decent D. Wilcox, Church, Claiborne & Carr, 2 CB 2 S lost...a lot for any team to handle from one position group. Yes neither player was great for Dal, but Carr was solid (if overpaid) and Claiborne stepped up last year before getting injured. With their problems rushing QB also, will be tough for that D next year.
We may not have a great cap situation to sign guys to big contracts, but remember Dal and Was both in worse positions. Phi has money but has to catch up some on talent (key is whether Wentz is a franchise QB or not - if he is, they should contend for years - if not, 3-5 year setback). Love watching WAS and DAL lose talent (Was lost Cousins best weapons, and I'm not a huge fan of Pryor despite size/talent; Dal lost their secondary and 2/5 of OL). BBI is going nuts over our OL issues - imagine if we lost 2 starting WR's, 4 DB's, 2/5 of our OL etc...
It's worth noting, though, that they lost the worse 2/5 of their OL. The 3 guys remaining are absolute studs.
I'd argue getting La'el Collins back is an upgrade at one of those last 2 positions.
They didn't miss a beat w/out Collins.
Add this on top of them losing both of their starting Safeties and I don't see how anyone can conclude anything other than that their defensive personnel has taken a huge step in the wrong direction.
Didn't realize that WAS had a lot of space and Phi little - I may have flipped them in my head. Regardless, WAS lost 2 top WRs, and while they pulled 1 back (there were a decent amount of WRs out there this FA), there will still be a downgrade (plus Jackson always killed us - I'll take our chances with Jenkins on Pryor - maybe a new OBJ/Norman type feud? I'd argue we've had the best offseason so far in the division, though that could still change (if DAL pulls something big for Romo, not likely). We didn't land a top OT to solidify our line, but I like the dice rolls in the lower $ pool, and really like the Ellison/Marshall signings. Seems like they got good fits for what they need (blocking from FB/TE, big WR). With some good coaching and playcalling/schemes, hopefully can cover the OL deficiencies, get the run game at least average, and the D should be close to last year (even w/o Hankins & Robinson)
It's funny, this is a Giants site, but many posters are negative towards most of the Giants moves - but bring up issues on a division rival like Dallas, and people pop up all over to defend them. Or else people just look on the positive side for DAL issues/turnover, but the negative side for Giants.
They have a defensive lineman, Irving, who along with Hunter on Minbesota, are the two emerging defensive- line monsters in the game. How did they find Irving ? While looking at his college teammate Lawrence. They have in Lee one of the best inside linebackers in the game. In the secondary , Brown and Jones are two young talents that they think will be around for years ..
On offense....well ...they are rather talented . So they are not going away. And they were not and are not in cap hell. Dallas does a good job of finding lower-round and street -free -agent talent . Unlike the Giants, who can only acquire talent by overpaying for expensive free agents and hitting on their early round draft choices , some of whom are allowed to leave.
Who of talent do the Gisnts have locked up for the next 3 years? The guys they spent about 200 million for. Hankins left. Pugh and Richburg will probably both leave after next season. They spent 18 million for a TE who has 55 career catches over 5 seasons , with 3 touchdowns . So, really, do you want to harp about roster formation?
The Giants starved a Hall-of-Fame coach, who went four seasons employing attrition-model strategies. That same coach is spending his sacks off in Jacksonville That's how Coughlin views roster formation . Then to make it look good , the Giants went on a wild spending spree one fine March day in 16. But with each passing season, they will spend less and less because of that spree. More attrition-model strategies to follow .
Which teams figures better over a 1, 3 & 5 year projection? Who will be throwing to Beckham in 3 years ?
When you spin buying an eagles cornerback that played last year as a positive, you are clearly trying to frame a very particular point your way.
If the Giants had the Cowboys secondary right now people would be jumping off the GW bridge. It's not good, got worse than the last two years, and neither is their pass rush for the third year in a row.
They are counting on their offense to yet again control the ball and hide their defense as much as possible.
Then Collins is a RFA after 2017, Zack Martin is a FA after 2017, Whitten is a FA after 2017 (although likely just about done for his career), and they will have to pay Prescott by 2019.
They are going to be handing out some big contracts next year just to keep their O-Line in tact which they have no choice in doing if they want to continue to contend.
So yeah, I'd say its a crapshoot over the next 1-5 years on how the two teams fare.
The starters at this point would be Scandrick and Brown with Carroll in the slot. The fourth CB is Leon McFadden who is a JAG who played 9 games last year. The Dallas secondary will be alright if Carroll is no better then the 5th CB and McFadden isn't on the roster.
The safeties consist of Jones, Heath, and Frazier. Kavon Frazier is a clone of Wilcox, a big hitter, but needs to improve in pass coverage. Jeff Heath should be no better then a top special players and depth at the position. If Heath is getting significant time or starting, Dallas has done a bad job in the off season on addressing the losses to the safety position.
Dallas had a very good draft in 2016, but this years draft will probably be more important for the teams future success. The defense needs to be addressed early and often. With the large departure of defense players Dallas needs to acquire at least 2 CBs, 1 safety, 2 DL, and 1 OL, that's six players. Considering Dallas has 7 draft picks, they have to be perfect in every round.
Marinelli has done a great job getting the most out of a defense that most observers believe is average to below average year after year, but constantly exceeds expectations. Next year will be no different for Marinelli.
The good news is Dallas will get a couple of red shirt players from 2016 Jaylon Smith and Charles Tapper that can be big contributors in 2017.
It's not impossible for Dallas to overcome these losses this year, but it will be a huge challenge. The draft is the key. Dallas has drafted well recently, they can't afford an off year this year.