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NFT: How dangerous is North Korea?

Ron Johnson 30 : 3/17/2017 10:23 am
I have pretty much ignored them as being blowhards that were looking to be bought off. It seems like I was wrong. On the news this morning I saw a report suggesting they're testing another nuke. It seems pretty clear Kim is a lunatic.

How dangerous do you think the situation is?
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They are not crazy  
WideRight : 3/17/2017 11:56 am : link
They live in a system that appears crazy to us, but given the system - essentially a hegemony - they are behaving rationally.

We said similar things about Saddam Hussein. But his path to war was a series of rational decisions that he had to make in order to stay in power. He correctly surmised that losing power would be his demise. And he was rational enough to wind up hiding in a little bunker in an attempt to survive after he lost that power.
they could inflict a lot of damage  
bc4life : 3/17/2017 12:05 pm : link
on South Korea, including US troops, before annihilation
true, and NK even much worse  
idiotsavant : 3/17/2017 12:09 pm : link
people want to ascribe rationality to NK, maybe because the crazy truth is just too damn unsettling.

for all those who don't think we need to constantly upgrade our own military tech...realy?....really?

I say upgrade the fucking hell out of our tech
You live in North Korea  
WideRight : 3/17/2017 12:16 pm : link
You will be executed if Kim Jung says so.

How are you going to behave? Like a westerner who has a Bill of Rights? Or perhaps a little differently, even if it appears irrational to others?
Upgrade our tech because.....  
WideRight : 3/17/2017 12:18 pm : link
we can't beat them with what we got?
The behavior of the people is rational given the system they exist in  
JerryNYG : 3/17/2017 12:19 pm : link
and their forced ignorance of the outside world.

The behavior of the leaders is irrational.

Take a look at a satellite view of the Korean peninsula at night and think about the fact that this is a nuclear armed nation...
My son showed me an incredible map the other day  
WideRight : 3/17/2017 12:30 pm : link
A multi-user video game produces a map of the locations of all the worlds players. Totalling several million players, and I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the game....

When you look at the Korean Peninsula on this map, there are millions of dots representing players in South Korea. When you look at the entire country of North Korea, there is only one dot. Its located in Pyongyang, and is widely presumed to be Kim Jung. He's the only one permitted to play in his country.
It is Very Dangerous  
Samiam : 3/17/2017 12:32 pm : link
Aside from their ability to target the US eventually, they could target our allies pretty soon and we could get dragged into a conflict soon even by accident. It's dangerous in they they could sell the technology and means to terroists or terroist nations if they're not doing that already. And it's dangerous because who we have calling the shots in Washington not that prior administrations did well with North Korea
RE: I use to laugh them off  
njm : 3/17/2017 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13396389 NNJ Tom said:
Quote:
but I saw a documentary recently about a surgeon who goes to N. Korea to do eyesight restoration surgery. When the N. Koreans regained their vision after removing the bandages, they all dropped to their knees and thanked the Dear Leader for curing them.

I was like WTF? The surgeon cured them, not the little fat fucker. These people are severely brainwashed and should be considered highly dangerous. Think Manson family type bat shit crazy.


Brainwashed, or aware that if they don't do something like that they may end up strapped to an artillery piece during an exercise ?
RE: It is Very Dangerous  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13396680 Samiam said:
Quote:
... they could target our allies pretty soon ...


Pretty soon? They can hit South Korea with a rock. And they already proved they can hit Japan as well.

RE: conversely....  
ThatLimerickGuy : 3/17/2017 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13396262 BillKo said:
Quote:
how dangerous can we be with current leadership in regards to N. Korea???


AH. It took 3 posts before some jackhole went US Politics on this and gets it deleted.

Over under was 2.
RE: The are only dangerous..  
RobCarpenter : 3/17/2017 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13396256 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
in mass parade competitions.

Other than that, they are a joke, led by a guy with a bad haircut who can't seem to get missiles to even work properly.


The reason they haven't been able to get the missiles to work is b/c of US cyber warfare.

I think they are legit crazy. Could fire off an ICBM, then invade South Korea. A lot depends on the Chinese getting them in line.
Cyber Warfare - ( New Window )
Can't North Korea already hit US Pacific territory?  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 1:05 pm : link
They successfully test fired a submarine launched a ballistic missile last summer.

They are not to be fucked with and if you aren't concerned, you aren't paying attention.

This is a legit threat that could well evolve into a major problem.


North Korea test fires ballistic missile from submarine - ( New Window )
They exist at the will of the Chinese...  
trueblueinpw : 3/17/2017 1:28 pm : link
Of course they're extremely dangerous.

I don't think most people understand the brutality of the North Korean regime. They are perhaps the most brutal and cruel regime on the planet. And I don't think that's a hyperbolic or politically charged statement. They may not be the menace to the rest of the world that Iran seems to me to be, but I think the North Korean's a far more repressive and brutal to their own people. Very sick stuff goes on over there.

However, the Chinese could crush North Korea at their whim. The problem for the West is that even if the Chinese decided to end the North Korean regime, it would problem still only occur at the great expense of the South Korean people.

And, as other's have pointed out, there's no safety for anyone in a lunatic regime with nuclear weapons.
Limerick Guy  
Samiam : 3/17/2017 1:44 pm : link
Why don't you think for a minute before you post like that? Leaving aside how you feel about our politics, there is a new administration with less than 2 months in office dealing with North Korea and dealing with a boatload of issues some legitimate and some manufactured. How the hell is that not relevant ?
RE: Limerick Guy  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 1:46 pm : link
In comment 13396831 Samiam said:
Quote:
Why don't you think for a minute before you post like that? Leaving aside how you feel about our politics, there is a new administration with less than 2 months in office dealing with North Korea and dealing with a boatload of issues some legitimate and some manufactured. How the hell is that not relevant ?
Because this is BBI, and we don't do politics.

You can't talk about Trump and North Korea without it becoming political.

So don't.
RE: Limerick Guy  
njm : 3/17/2017 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13396831 Samiam said:
Quote:
Why don't you think for a minute before you post like that? Leaving aside how you feel about our politics, there is a new administration with less than 2 months in office dealing with North Korea and dealing with a boatload of issues some legitimate and some manufactured. How the hell is that not relevant ?


Because his intent was not as benign as you suggest, and would lead to deletion if responded to.
I'm Going to Drop It  
Samiam : 3/17/2017 1:56 pm : link
Talking about North Korea and ignoring what you apparently want to ignore would be like talking about the super bowl and ignoring the Falcon's play calling in the 4th quarter. That said, I'm done with the thread; it should not be deleted
RE: RE: conversely....  
BillKo : 3/17/2017 1:57 pm : link
In comment 13396362 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
In comment 13396262 BillKo said:


Quote:


how dangerous can we be with current leadership in regards to N. Korea???



Shut up


LOL...it's a valid question IMO.
RE: RE: conversely....  
BillKo : 3/17/2017 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13396715 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
In comment 13396262 BillKo said:


Quote:


how dangerous can we be with current leadership in regards to N. Korea???



AH. It took 3 posts before some jackhole went US Politics on this and gets it deleted.

Over under was 2.


How is this thread not political?
danger they present isn't just whether or not they're crazy enough  
mfsd : 3/17/2017 1:59 pm : link
to launch a nuke...but how willing are they to sell nuclear info/expertise/hardware to some other nut jobs
RE: Limerick Guy  
BillKo : 3/17/2017 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13396831 Samiam said:
Quote:
Why don't you think for a minute before you post like that? Leaving aside how you feel about our politics, there is a new administration with less than 2 months in office dealing with North Korea and dealing with a boatload of issues some legitimate and some manufactured. How the hell is that not relevant ?


Thanks...........
RE: RE: RE: conversely....  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/17/2017 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13396873 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 13396715 ThatLimerickGuy said:


Quote:


In comment 13396262 BillKo said:


Quote:


how dangerous can we be with current leadership in regards to N. Korea???



AH. It took 3 posts before some jackhole went US Politics on this and gets it deleted.

Over under was 2.



How is this thread not political?


I think you can discuss how dangerous a foreign power is without being political. It just takes effort.
I love how this post is started...  
BillKo : 3/17/2017 2:04 pm : link
and you're telling me it's not political? Politics is a huge part of it.

And I love how my intent can be read........
Ive got mixed feelings about this.  
Ron from Ninerland : 3/17/2017 3:04 pm : link
North Korea is a threat, but they are a bigger threat to Japan, South Korea and China than they are to us. Why China ? Because if N Korea takes does something that demands a military response, there will be allied troops parked in China's back yard for an indefinite period and a stream of N Korean refugees into China.

Also, I would trust China's intelligence concerning N. Korea more than I would trust U.S. intelligence.
There's no reason to be political  
Ron Johnson 30 : 3/17/2017 3:47 pm : link
.
RE: I love how this post is started...  
section125 : 3/17/2017 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13396892 BillKo said:
Quote:
and you're telling me it's not political? Politics is a huge part of it.

And I love how my intent can be read........


The question was how dangerous are they - nothing to do with us, so there really was no need to bring DC into the conversation. We fart, they are gone. But they are dangerous because Kim Jong-Un is living in a fantasy world where he thinks he's the king and is our equal militarily. He's not. He can put a world of hurt on South Korea.

Meantime try the name James Mattis if you are worried about an inappropriate reaction from DC.

My problem is China acting like it is our fault. POS nation. They sit there stealing islands, stealing intellectual property, other nations EEZs and act like they own the entire South China Sea while ignoring every other nation with claims to the area.
I know he's married now...  
Overseer : 3/17/2017 6:05 pm : link
(although who knows if that means monogamy), but imagine how many poor, poor young North Korean girls were subjected to that chubby & hideous troll over the years.

Imagine how horrid he looks naked. Hobbit like with that ridiculous haircut and a stupid grin looking down on you as he thrusts away. Sweat filled fat rolls shadowing his already tiny penis. You force yourself to scream "Fuck me Dear Leader! Your cock is so huge!" lest you be executed once he climaxes and collapses on top of you before his 3pm feeding.

"But they see him as a God, they must welcome the opportunity to fornicate with him."

No. No amount of deification can compensate for that level of hideousness.

Those poor girls.

--

Blame China. It's one of the (very) few things DT has right. North Korea, remember, was fairly prosperous for a long time. Briefly wealthier than its southern counterpart during plentiful Soviet largesse. Now they're desperate and focused on self preservation which nukes duly facilitate.

Fatso's antics have annoyed China for years (most recently resulting into a coal import ban) but it will never be enough to further empower the USA in the region, presently "checked" by the 38th parallel.

Containment is for now the only logical course. With of course a contingency, possible invasion plan starring SEAL team 6 should things devolve (which is undoubtedly already in place).

Yes they're dangerous. Although several places down the list (the most dangerous country in the world is Pakistan - which is why so much of your money goes to paying them off). But given the cowardly Chinese, there are few options so containment will endure.
RE: The are only dangerous..  
Rover : 3/17/2017 7:20 pm : link
In comment 13396256 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
in mass parade competitions.

Other than that, they are a joke, led by a guy with a bad haircut who can't seem to get missiles to even work properly.

You're back?
Anyway, FMiC is right.
Not a threat at all.
They know if they make one wrong move and go after South Korea they are dead meat.

The bigger issue would be, if they do provoke an attack, how does China respond, particularly given TPP is dead.
They are a serious threat to South Korea  
Dave in PA : 3/17/2017 7:48 pm : link
Although by the looks it, Lil Kim AKA Fearless Eater would much rather stay alive, obese and happy playing PS4 instead of splattered across a 3 mile radius
you guys  
bc4life : 3/17/2017 7:48 pm : link
keep thinking that
NK  
JerebilJ : 3/17/2017 8:13 pm : link
The US needed to draw a military conflict line with NK sooner or later and I'm glad it was done sooner. That is the only way the sanctions provide any bite and it shows China that we won't keep putting up with this BS forever. They are the only ones who can stop this disaster diplomatically.

And as a previous poster motioned, MAD has kept the world relatively peaceful since WWII. The NK situation is no different. If Kim Jung-un were really bat shit crazy, he would have already used the nukes he has on S Korea. The fact that he hasn't is because of MAD. He doesn't want to lose his hermit kingdom dictatorship and all the spoils that go along with it.
Dangerous to our way of life?  
Bill2 : 3/17/2017 8:27 pm : link
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Turkey
Iraq
Iran
Venezuela

Dangerous as in they can have an environmental or weapons accident and make a huge mess?
Russia

Dangerous when they run out of water?
Much of the ME

Dangerous when they run out of food?
China

Dangerous as in their health resources, food and hygiene are so bad a deadly virus can be incubated and spread?
Central Africa

Dangerous as in they can attack us and win?
No one

Dangerous as if they dont straighten out we will get badly hurt?
Us
a war with N Korea would be over in a day  
gtt350 : 3/17/2017 10:54 pm : link
.
.  
Del Shofner : 3/17/2017 11:03 pm : link
good post Bill2.
Venezuela?  
trueblueinpw : 3/17/2017 11:08 pm : link
How is Venezuela a threat to the American way of life? Aren't they basically a bankrupt petro state? I would think Guatemala or Honduras would be a more immediate concern to the US. You know, with all their gang bangers and tattoo faced homicidal psychos.
.  
Bill2 : 3/17/2017 11:32 pm : link
Its the third largest supplier of oil to the USA.

Its kind of crude is especially suited for our long haul truck fleet.

Next Venezuealan oil is very hard to refine. it is often sent to our refineries and then venezuela exports it elsewhere

Lastly, Venezueala buys our lighter crude blends at very high margins to try to form exportable oil from their very difficult to work with oil

That combination leaves us as a swing player in the global markets...with the next lowest production costs to Saudi Arabia

In sum, if Saudi or Russia or Nigeria or Iraq or Iran had a sudden sharp decline in production ( pipeline sabotogue, rebel takeover, tanker crashes in their harbors, pipeline leak, refinery fire) we can still produce at low enough cost that we would be hurt but nowhere near the adverse economic destruction that would befall other nations if a key player went off market.

We would still be able to get food and essentials distributed and our people could get to work

It also allows us to leave it in the ground for when the Russians have pumped all their easy reserves in about 15 years.

So that is why stability in Venzuela is important to you
How is Venezuela a threat to "our way of life"?  
Vanzetti : 3/17/2017 11:40 pm : link
Do you mean because they have a semi-socialist economy? So did England before Thatcher and France still does. Were they threats to "our way of life"?

Your other points are interesting but seriously the cold war ended 25 years ago. Time to move on.


Figures  
trueblueinpw : 3/17/2017 11:46 pm : link
Always comes back to the fossil fuels doesn't it? Pretty much at the bottom of it all.
RE: Ive got mixed feelings about this.  
JOrthman : 3/18/2017 4:23 am : link
In comment 13397049 Ron from Ninerland said:
Quote:
North Korea is a threat, but they are a bigger threat to Japan, South Korea and China than they are to us. Why China ? Because if N Korea takes does something that demands a military response, there will be allied troops parked in China's back yard for an indefinite period and a stream of N Korean refugees into China.

Also, I would trust China's intelligence concerning N. Korea more than I would trust U.S. intelligence.


U.S. Mainland maybe not, but you have to consider we have a large U.S. Military presence there already.
He is constantly trying to provoke the west and specifically the U.S.  
JOrthman : 3/18/2017 4:28 am : link
Luckily we haven't decided to push it further. However, let me add any conflict will lead to a lot of death on both sides with a lot of U.S. Military death before it ends depending how, if at all he decides to take action.
Vanzetti  
Bill2 : 3/18/2017 8:47 am : link
I said nothing about their choice of their government. At all.

I said "stability" affects our way of life.

Nor do I think it's worth intervening or fighting for or e gaging in regime change.

I said exactly what I said and no more and no less. In response to a question.

Please raise and beat strawman arguments as often as you like but make sure to lavel yourself as the sender and the responder.

Take care
.  
Bill2 : 3/18/2017 8:49 am : link
We do violently agree that it's time to move on.

For me that includes guys who never arrived
.  
Bill2 : 3/18/2017 9:42 am : link
I am not trying to be argumentative with anyone here. At all.

I will explain where my posts on these topics come from:

1) I don't believe other forms of government represent any threat to us or the world's average people.
2) when I say "us" I don't mean our elites. I mean our average and disadvantaged people. ..The 90 percent of us.
3) I believe that being fear based and listening to people selling fear is a bad way to live. That's paying a heavy tax on things you never earned. Agreeing to trade personal freedom for the security others say they best know how to provide? You don't fall for that in your personal life. Why get flummoxed when analyzing the wider world?
4) I have not been left or right or party based in decades. I don't think kabuki theater represents the system of government we really have and is a waste of energy.
5) I do think that the vast majority of people have three enemies:
A) instability in the world from any form of government. Especially food, water, medicine or energy sources.
B) Allowing fear sellers to influence you from digging into the facts.
C) misunderstanding our system

The biggest threat to us is us. By a huge margin over whatever is in second place.

I hate these threads where people enlarge the threats from other nations. Fear of others concedes they have influence over us without a fight or a thought.

Everyone is free to think what they want. I don't wish to convince anyone...thats a fools errand.

I do wish posters to know where I come from in these exchanges. Thx.
RE: .  
Percy : 3/18/2017 12:56 pm : link
In comment 13397902 Bill2 said:
Quote:
I am not trying to be argumentative with anyone here. At all.

I will explain where my posts on these topics come from:
...
5) I do think that the vast majority of people have three enemies:
A) instability in the world from any form of government. Especially food, water, medicine or energy sources.
B) Allowing fear sellers to influence you from digging into the facts.
C) misunderstanding our system

The biggest threat to us is us. By a huge margin over whatever is in second place.
...


Bill 2, you tirelessly do your best to inform and expand others' thinking. I thank you for it. Threads like this one can take alarming turns and your "Winnie the Poo" point is all too often lost sight of. Why is sort of a mystery.
its certainly good for the quality of BBI to have Bill2 back-  
idiotsavant : 3/18/2017 2:22 pm : link
A couple of side note things on semantics as opposed to arguments:

"threat" (to us). Semantics possibly, not to fight about:

There are obviously any number of levels and ways that word can be taken. Military threat, bombs, as opposed to slow degradation via political stuff and effects of those and trends. Very different things obviously.

"stability" is another word:

Certainly, a world of stable, singular and sovereign Nation States, is a goal that Trump, Putin, the China gang and many others can agree on.

Certainly, as long as those nation states restrain themselves from exporting asymmetrical threats to stability (terrorism, nation state sponsored external 'movements' those that use violence of semi violent actions and so on) we are literally safer. So if that's where Bill2 is going, I agree.

I would only add a nuance that all such, truths, which Bill2 may be alluding to, do not completely or totally offer us an excuse to ignore the:

a. ignorant and lacking in dignity Racketeer/Patronage States (Venezuela currently, Russia possibly) or the

b. outright deeply evil states (north korea).

I mean, whereas those states may not present direct -threats- to us, but how they are operating may well in fact give succor to people among us who lower our quality of life here in the USA, and may give impetus to anti-free trends here. IN addition, if they -could- threaten us, possibly they would do so...so where does that lead one?

So, words like 'threat', proposing acts that involve violence, war, etc, may be excessive for situations like Venezuela, and may be excessive for even Russia (we shall see).

But that does NOT mean that the current status of such states -does not matter to us- either, ours being a small world and one that is getting smaller due to technology, transport, communications and trade.

So, bill is right, as he often is, it is just that I personally would not go so far as to say 'I don't care about say, Venzuela, as long as the oil flows'.

Which is probably not where bill was going anyway, more like 'its not worth going to war over', in which case I would agree.

This is where, short of war, and also not using exportation of violence (as a general rule outside of war), where words are used, and count, and do have effect, see Reagan, Ronald, Cold War, End Of.

Nice to see you posting Bill2  
David in LA : 3/18/2017 2:31 pm : link
It's always a pleasure seeing your posts. Hope all is well!
so, if the trend is cynicism  
idiotsavant : 3/18/2017 2:43 pm : link
then, the self styled 'realists' currently maybe winning over the self styled 'idealists', then I would only add, to mis-quote Reagan quoting De Toqueville, 'if we cease to be good, we will cease to be a great nation.' :

-------------

''And finally, that shrewdest of all observers of American democracy, Alexis de Tocqueville, put it eloquently after he had gone on a search for the secret of America's greatness and genius -- and he said, "Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the greatness and the genius of America….America is good. And if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great."

Well, I'm pleased to be here today with you who are keeping America great by keeping her good. Only through your work and prayers and those of millions of others can we hope to survive this perilous century and keep alive this experiment in liberty -- this last, best hope of man.

I want you to know that this administration is motivated by a political philosophy that sees the greatness of America in you, her people, and in your families, churches, neighborhoods, communities -- the institutions that foster and nourish values like concern for others and respect for the rule of law under God.

Now, I don't have to tell you that this puts us in opposition to, or at least out of step with, a prevailing attitude of many who have turned to a modern-day secularism, discarding the tried and time-tested values upon which our very civilization is based. No matter how well intentioned, their value system is radically different from that of most Americans. And while they proclaim that they're freeing us from superstitions of the past, they've taken upon themselves the job of superintending us by government rule and regulation. Sometimes their voices are louder than ours, but they are not yet a majority.
'' (Reagan)
more relevant to North Korea same Reagan speach  
idiotsavant : 3/18/2017 2:52 pm : link
''It was C.S. Lewis who, in his unforgettable "Screwtape Letters," wrote: "The greatest evil is not done now in those sordid 'dens of crime' that Dickens loved to paint. It is not even done in concentration camps and labor camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice."

Well, because these "quiet men" do not "raise their voices"; because they sometimes speak in soothing tones of brotherhood and peace; because, like other dictators before them, they're always making "their final territorial demand," some would have us accept them at their word and accommodate ourselves to their aggressive impulses. But if history teaches anything,

>>>>>>it teaches that simple-minded appeasement or >>>>wishful thinking about our adversaries is folly. It means the betrayal of our past, the squandering of our freedom.
''
then, finally, and I will leave  
idiotsavant : 3/18/2017 3:17 pm : link
The idea that Venzuela only matters to the 1%ers is wrong.

They famously tried to export their Bolivarian Propaganda Program to the USA starting with the free heating oil program, and probably also - in ways we don't even know about as well, such as sponsoring political candidates and or movements. Obviously targeted mainly at the lowest 10% or our own socio economic spectrum, not the top 1% :

(Wikipedia on Bolivarian Propaganda)

''Bolivarian propaganda describes a political campaign originating in Venezuela used to promote Hugo Chávez's Bolivarian Revolution[1] that uses emotional arguments to gain attention, exploit the fears (either real or imagined) of the population, create external enemies for scapegoat purposes, and produce nationalism within the population, causing feelings of betrayal for support of the opposition.[2][3] The World Politics Review stated that as Chávez began "transforming Venezuela into a socialist state" that propaganda was "an important role in maintaining and mobilizing government supporters".[4] The image of Chávez is seen on sides of buildings, on T-shirts, on ambulances, on official Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) billboards, and as action figures throughout Venezuela.[4][5] A 2011 article by The New York Times says Venezuela has an "expanding state propaganda complex"[6] while The Boston Globe described Chávez as "a media savvy, forward-thinking propagandist" and that he had "the oil wealth to influence public opinion".[7] Chávez's successor, Nicolas Maduro, has continued using obligatory broadcasts on TV ("cadenas"). In some instances, he has compared Chávez to holy figures.[8][9][10][11][12]''
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