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NFT: Mike Brown

T-Bone : 3/17/2017 11:23 am
New evidence (mainly a video) is showing that Mike Brown did not rob a convenience store before his fatal shooting. The video had been withheld because it supposedly 'was not relevant to the investigation'. But the video of him shoving the store owner was I guess. My guess is that the guy who Brown shoved in the first released video wasn't aware that Brown had already 'purchased' the box of cigarillos and that's why he was trying to stop Brown from leaving his store.

In the link below, Officer Wilson (the officer who shot and killed Brown) also supposedly admits to using the 'N-word' and, even more damning, admits that Brown never reached for his gun during the alleged struggle in his vehicle.

Funny how all this comes out almost 3 years after the incident... well actually... not funny at all.
Brown case - ( New Window )
Here's another article  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 11:25 am : link
from the New York Times about it.
Brown case - ( New Window )
T-Bone...  
Mike in St. Louis : 3/17/2017 11:43 am : link
I'm not sure exactly how these stories go but this is about a week old...and there's nothing to see here...

first of all, the video has been out there since shortly after the incident occurred...the police, grand jury, the Browns' attorneys, pretty much everyone has been aware of it...

it came to light recently because of a documentary by an indy filmmaker who is friendly with the Browns, who are in the middle of a civil suit seeking millions from Darren Wilson and the City of Ferguson...

the problem is, he edited the video to try to get his "point" across...even with the edited video, it doesn't support the idea there was some sort of a drug deal...

bottom line, it doesn't affect what happened the next day, when Brown was shot, one iota...if anything, it shows Brown was dealing drugs the day before and not robbing the store or strong arming the clerk...but then the store shouldn't have called in the robbery to police and the store is denying there...again, there's nothing to see here...it doesn't change a thing about what happened the next day...
Mike sums it up perfectly  
giantsfan44ab : 3/17/2017 11:55 am : link
The filmmaker is trying to make an argument that Brown tried trading weed for the cigarillos one day and the next day he came in and the store owner rejected the trade.

Nothing to see.
Regarding the gun  
Jim in Fairfax : 3/17/2017 11:57 am : link
It's not true that Wilson admitted that Brown never reached for the gun. He was asked a direct question: "Michael Brown never tried to remove your gun FROM YOUR HOLSTER". Wilson admitted to this. But his further testimony was that Brown attempted to take control of the gun AFTER he drew it from his holster.
RE: T-Bone...  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 11:58 am : link
In comment 13396495 Mike in St. Louis said:
Quote:
I'm not sure exactly how these stories go but this is about a week old...and there's nothing to see here...

first of all, the video has been out there since shortly after the incident occurred...the police, grand jury, the Browns' attorneys, pretty much everyone has been aware of it...

it came to light recently because of a documentary by an indy filmmaker who is friendly with the Browns, who are in the middle of a civil suit seeking millions from Darren Wilson and the City of Ferguson...

the problem is, he edited the video to try to get his "point" across...even with the edited video, it doesn't support the idea there was some sort of a drug deal...

bottom line, it doesn't affect what happened the next day, when Brown was shot, one iota...if anything, it shows Brown was dealing drugs the day before and not robbing the store or strong arming the clerk...but then the store shouldn't have called in the robbery to police and the store is denying there...again, there's nothing to see here...it doesn't change a thing about what happened the next day...


Disagree with what you're saying... but ok, let's say the video doesn't change a thing.

So what about the admission of Wilson and other officers using the 'N-word' and Wilson's admission that Brown didn't reach for the gun? Or do those not change anything either?
RE: Regarding the gun  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13396581 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
It's not true that Wilson admitted that Brown never reached for the gun. He was asked a direct question: "Michael Brown never tried to remove your gun FROM YOUR HOLSTER". Wilson admitted to this. But his further testimony was that Brown attempted to take control of the gun AFTER he drew it from his holster.


Jim - if I recall, that's not how the original story went. The original story was that Brown reached inside Wilson's car and during the struggle Brown tried to get Wilson's gun from out of his holster and after realizing that pulled it out himself.
Who buys something, leaves a store, and then comes back for it later?  
Greg from LI : 3/17/2017 12:01 pm : link
That just sounds really odd.
RE: Who buys something, leaves a store, and then comes back for it later?  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13396599 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
That just sounds really odd.


Who knows? Maybe Brown didn't want to bring the cigarillos with him wherever he was about to go? Maybe he just didn't feel like taking them with him at the time? Who knows?
T-Bone...  
Mike in St. Louis : 3/17/2017 12:04 pm : link
I'm not going to rehash everything here or open old wounds that should be healing (partly because people are not going to change their views and beliefs on what happened)...but nothing that has come out changes anything or is inconsistent with the grand jury testimony...I have read multiple stories and have seen several news stories, most of them local, and all have basically concluded the same thing...
RE: T-Bone...  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 12:08 pm : link
In comment 13396611 Mike in St. Louis said:
Quote:
I'm not going to rehash everything here or open old wounds that should be healing (partly because people are not going to change their views and beliefs on what happened)...but nothing that has come out changes anything or is inconsistent with the grand jury testimony...I have read multiple stories and have seen several news stories, most of them local, and all have basically concluded the same thing...


You're right... nothing will be changed because Brown is still dead... Wilson is still free... and most people have already made up their minds as to Wilson's guilt.
or lack of guilt...  
Mike in St. Louis : 3/17/2017 12:10 pm : link
...
RE: or lack of guilt...  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13396633 Mike in St. Louis said:
Quote:
...


Yes, thank you. After I hit Submit I realized that I should've put that on the end.
RE: RE: Regarding the gun  
Jim in Fairfax : 3/17/2017 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13396594 T-Bone said:
Quote:

Jim - if I recall, that's not how the original story went. The original story was that Brown reached inside Wilson's car and during the struggle Brown tried to get Wilson's gun from out of his holster and after realizing that pulled it out himself.

From his original testimony: "So the only other option I thought I had was my gun. I drew my gun, I turned ... He is standing there. I said, 'get back or I'm going to shoot you.' He immediately grabs my gun and says, 'you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.' ... My gun was basically pointed this way ... but he grabs it with his right one and he twists it and then he digs it down into my hip ... "
Wilson did NOT  
halfback20 : 3/17/2017 12:27 pm : link
admit that Brown never reached for his gun. He admitted Brown never tried to remove it from the holster. Brown grabbed for the gun after Wilson removed it from the holster.

The first video was much earlier before ghee incident. The video of him shoving the clerk was related because it happened immediately before the incident.
RE: RE: RE: Regarding the gun  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13396663 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 13396594 T-Bone said:


Quote:



Jim - if I recall, that's not how the original story went. The original story was that Brown reached inside Wilson's car and during the struggle Brown tried to get Wilson's gun from out of his holster and after realizing that pulled it out himself.


From his original testimony: "So the only other option I thought I had was my gun. I drew my gun, I turned ... He is standing there. I said, 'get back or I'm going to shoot you.' He immediately grabs my gun and says, 'you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.' ... My gun was basically pointed this way ... but he grabs it with his right one and he twists it and then he digs it down into my hip ... "


So let me get this straight...

A cop pulls up on two guys... something is said or happens to cause the cop and at least one of the two men to argue... the cop grabs one of the men through his window and a tussle breaks out... the cop feels his 'only option' is his gun (after initiating contact with this one person) and draws his gun... and THEN he tells the one he was wrestling with to 'get back or I'm going to shoot you' (when he's supposedly 'just standing there')? Or did he draw his gun before the wrestling began and pointed it at Brown and that's when he said 'get back or I'm going to shoot you'?

Neither scenario makes much sense.

If it's scenario one, at what point was he just 'standing there'? Which makes me think it's scenario number two.

If it's scenario number two, why did he feel the need, while in his car, to draw his gun if Brown was 'just standing there' and why did he feel like that was his only option?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Regarding the gun  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13396683 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13396663 Jim in Fairfax said:


Quote:


In comment 13396594 T-Bone said:


Quote:



Jim - if I recall, that's not how the original story went. The original story was that Brown reached inside Wilson's car and during the struggle Brown tried to get Wilson's gun from out of his holster and after realizing that pulled it out himself.


From his original testimony: "So the only other option I thought I had was my gun. I drew my gun, I turned ... He is standing there. I said, 'get back or I'm going to shoot you.' He immediately grabs my gun and says, 'you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.' ... My gun was basically pointed this way ... but he grabs it with his right one and he twists it and then he digs it down into my hip ... "



So let me get this straight...

A cop pulls up on two guys... something is said or happens to cause the cop and at least one of the two men to argue... the cop grabs one of the men through his window and a tussle breaks out... the cop feels his 'only option' is his gun (after initiating contact with this one person) and draws his gun... and THEN he tells the one he was wrestling with to 'get back or I'm going to shoot you' (when he's supposedly 'just standing there')? Or did he draw his gun before the wrestling began and pointed it at Brown and that's when he said 'get back or I'm going to shoot you'?

Neither scenario makes much sense.

If it's scenario one, at what point was he just 'standing there'? Which makes me think it's scenario number two.

If it's scenario number two, why did he feel the need, while in his car, to draw his gun if Brown was 'just standing there' and why did he feel like that was his only option?


Particularly when Wilson had no reason to believe that Brown had a weapon on him (I should've added)?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Regarding the gun  
Jim in Fairfax : 3/17/2017 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13396683 T-Bone said:
Quote:


So let me get this straight...

A cop pulls up on two guys... something is said or happens to cause the cop and at least one of the two men to argue... the cop grabs one of the men through his window and a tussle breaks out... the cop feels his 'only option' is his gun (after initiating contact with this one person) and draws his gun... and THEN he tells the one he was wrestling with to 'get back or I'm going to shoot you' (when he's supposedly 'just standing there')? Or did he draw his gun before the wrestling began and pointed it at Brown and that's when he said 'get back or I'm going to shoot you'?

Neither scenario makes much sense.

If it's scenario one, at what point was he just 'standing there'? Which makes me think it's scenario number two.

If it's scenario number two, why did he feel the need, while in his car, to draw his gun if Brown was 'just standing there' and why did he feel like that was his only option?


Wilson's testimony:

"I go to open the door and i say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown. As I'm opening the door he turns, faces me, looks at me and says, 'what the (expletive) are you going to do about it,' and shuts my door, slammed it shut ... he was just staring at me, almost like to intimidate me or to overpower me. The intense face he has was just not what i expected ...

I then opened my door again and used my door to push him backwards ... i tell him to 'get the (expletive) back' ... He then grabs my door again and shuts my door. At that time is when i saw him coming into my vehicle. His head was higher than the top of my car. And I see him ducking and as he is ducking, his hands are up and he is coming in my vehicle ... I don't remember seeing him come at me, but I was hit right here in the side of the face with a fist ... i think it was a full-on swing, but not a full shot ... significant amount of contact that was made to my face ... i believe it was his right hand ...He turns like this and now the Cigarillos i see in his left hand ... he reaches back and he says, 'hey man, hold these." I'm assuming to Johnson but I couldn't see Johnson ... at that point i tried to hold his right arm and use my left hand to get out to have some type of control and not be trapped in my car any more. And when i grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5 year old holding onto Hulk Hogan ... I see his hand coming back around like this and he hit me with this part of his right hand ... next thing I remember is how do I get this guy away from me. What do I do not to get beaten inside my car ... I considered using my mace, however, i wasn't willing to sacrifice my left hand, which is blocking my face ... I wear contacts, if that touches any part of my eyes, then I can't see at all ... The whole time, I can't tell you if he was swinging at me or grabbing me or pushing me or what, but there was just stuff going on ... Next I considered my flashlight ... (but) would it even be effective ... So the only other option I thought I had was my gun. I drew my gun, I turned ... He is standing there. I said, 'get back or I'm going to shoot you.' He immediately grabs my gun and says, 'you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.' ... My gun was basically pointed this way ... but he grabs it with his right one and he twists it and then he digs it down into my hip ..."
And that's the problem with narratives...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/17/2017 1:09 pm : link
and why the video evidence of a convenience store doesn't change things. It doesn't matter if he stole cigarillos or it was a drug deal gone wrong (even though I'm still trying to figure out how that makes him look better, especially for his promising career in the HVAC world). It shows Brown was prone to violence or at least a violent outburst.

But then again, when some outlets tried to promote the narrative that Wilson grabbed Brown and made him come inside the window, it seems quite unlikely give the respective sizes of the men involved. It is much more likely Brown was near or in the car through the window by his own choosing then being forced that way.

I'm not sure what changed this week, other than Brown continues to look bad in yet another capacity.
Brown was killed 152 feet from the patrol car.  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 1:11 pm : link
To me, that was the one thing that stood out. Hard to claim self defense.

Don't get me wrong, Brown wasn't a saint...  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 1:22 pm : link
...but only the craziest of the crazy would do this: "As I'm opening the door he turns, faces me, looks at me and says, 'what the (expletive) are you going to do about it,' and shuts my door, slammed it shut "

But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/17/2017 1:26 pm : link
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, Brown wasn't a saint...
x meadowlander : 1:22 pm : link : reply
...but only the craziest of the crazy would do this: "As I'm opening the door he turns, faces me, looks at me and says, 'what the (expletive) are you going to do about it,' and shuts my door, slammed it shut "


Even in your diagram, there are red stains on the driver's door. They were from Wilson's blood from the punches he took. Since Brown was beating him, is it really that much of a stretch to think he tried to slam the door too? The majority of the evidence supports Wilson's testimony, which is one of the reasons he wasn't indicted.
ProLifeTips  
RobCrossRiver56 : 3/17/2017 1:27 pm : link
1) Don't Rob Grocery stores
2) Don't disobey police officers
3) When questioned, do not start a fight with police officers
4) Don't punch police officers in their vehicle
5) Don't reach for a police officers gun when drawn
6) Don't call the officer with gun drawn a pussy


X  
Jim in Fairfax : 3/17/2017 1:27 pm : link
According to eyewitness testimonies, after being shot Brown ran away from the car down the street. Wilson exited the car and told him to stop. Brown turned and charged Wilson, resulting in the fatal gunshots the noted distance from the vehicle.
Some of you should take  
pjcas18 : 3/17/2017 1:34 pm : link
a weekend and read "Trust Me I'm Lying" to help educate yourselves on media manipulation. Not a 100% match to this story, but the concept is spot on.

Also you need to know that Obama's DOJ did a full review of the incident and while they found the Ferguson PD to show racist tendencies or worse, they found no evidence of corruption or inconsistencies in the official report from the Michael Brown incident.

To believe Brown's family's story or the documentary you have to want to believe Brown's familiy's story or feel the system is so corrupt they'd cover up a murder or at worst a manslaughter, everyone from all the responding LEO's the prosecutor, the coroner/ME, the hundreds of witnesses who wouldn't go public out of fear for their lives and Obama DOJ.

The FACTS from the DOJ report:

1. There is no evidence to suggest Wilson's use of force was unreasonable

2. Michael Brown did likely reach into Wilson's car and grab the officer

3. Michael Brown did double back to Wilson

4. Michael Brown's hands were probably not up, but it's impossible to say for sure

My sense is the DOJ would have preferred to find fault the other way and their report is scathing about the racist practices of the police force, however the specific incident detailed report the DOJ supported the official report.

There's also responses to the "new" really old video release and documentary that pretty much dispute or refute at least every claim it makes.
Link to DOJ report summarize by WaPo - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Regarding the gun  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13396739 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 13396683 T-Bone said:


Quote:




So let me get this straight...

A cop pulls up on two guys... something is said or happens to cause the cop and at least one of the two men to argue... the cop grabs one of the men through his window and a tussle breaks out... the cop feels his 'only option' is his gun (after initiating contact with this one person) and draws his gun... and THEN he tells the one he was wrestling with to 'get back or I'm going to shoot you' (when he's supposedly 'just standing there')? Or did he draw his gun before the wrestling began and pointed it at Brown and that's when he said 'get back or I'm going to shoot you'?

Neither scenario makes much sense.

If it's scenario one, at what point was he just 'standing there'? Which makes me think it's scenario number two.

If it's scenario number two, why did he feel the need, while in his car, to draw his gun if Brown was 'just standing there' and why did he feel like that was his only option?



Wilson's testimony:

"I go to open the door and i say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown. As I'm opening the door he turns, faces me, looks at me and says, 'what the (expletive) are you going to do about it,' and shuts my door, slammed it shut ... he was just staring at me, almost like to intimidate me or to overpower me. The intense face he has was just not what i expected ...

I then opened my door again and used my door to push him backwards ... i tell him to 'get the (expletive) back' ... He then grabs my door again and shuts my door. At that time is when i saw him coming into my vehicle. His head was higher than the top of my car. And I see him ducking and as he is ducking, his hands are up and he is coming in my vehicle ... I don't remember seeing him come at me, but I was hit right here in the side of the face with a fist ... i think it was a full-on swing, but not a full shot ... significant amount of contact that was made to my face ... i believe it was his right hand ...He turns like this and now the Cigarillos i see in his left hand ... he reaches back and he says, 'hey man, hold these." I'm assuming to Johnson but I couldn't see Johnson ... at that point i tried to hold his right arm and use my left hand to get out to have some type of control and not be trapped in my car any more. And when i grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5 year old holding onto Hulk Hogan ... I see his hand coming back around like this and he hit me with this part of his right hand ... next thing I remember is how do I get this guy away from me. What do I do not to get beaten inside my car ... I considered using my mace, however, i wasn't willing to sacrifice my left hand, which is blocking my face ... I wear contacts, if that touches any part of my eyes, then I can't see at all ... The whole time, I can't tell you if he was swinging at me or grabbing me or pushing me or what, but there was just stuff going on ... Next I considered my flashlight ... (but) would it even be effective ... So the only other option I thought I had was my gun. I drew my gun, I turned ... He is standing there. I said, 'get back or I'm going to shoot you.' He immediately grabs my gun and says, 'you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.' ... My gun was basically pointed this way ... but he grabs it with his right one and he twists it and then he digs it down into my hip ..."


There are so many things that don't make sense in that testimony I really am not even sure I want to get into all of it.

-
Quote:
I go to open the door and i say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown. As I'm opening the door he turns, faces me, looks at me and says, 'what the (expletive) are you going to do about it,' and shuts my door, slammed it shut


As Wilson opens the door Brown looks at him and says 'what the (expletive) are you going to do about it,'? That doesn't even make any sense to say to a cop who's opening the door.

-
Quote:
He then grabs my door again and shuts my door. At that time is when i saw him coming into my vehicle. His head was higher than the top of my car.


So he tries to jump into the car to fight a cop? Who does that unless the guy is high on drugs? Oh yeah... a guy who the media and Ferguson police wanted to make look like a crook who just stole something.

-
Quote:
And when i grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5 year old holding onto Hulk Hogan


Wilson is 6'4" 210lbs... Brown was 6'5" and weighed 290. Yeah there's a big difference in weight but the height's pretty much the same. Don't know any 5 year olds anywhere near as big as Hulk Hogan.

There's a bunch of other things in there that just don't make any sense to me (like the 'pussy' comment for instance) but I'll just leave it at that. Real easy to give your side of the story when the other side can't be given because that person's dead. Sorry... not sure I'm going to believe the testimony of a person who's admitted to referring to black people as niggers.
RE: X  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13396788 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
According to eyewitness testimonies, after being shot Brown ran away from the car down the street. Wilson exited the car and told him to stop. Brown turned and charged Wilson, resulting in the fatal gunshots the noted distance from the vehicle.
Yeah, I know the entire story.

Doesn't pass the smell test with me, but I accept the investigations results. Armed cop chases a wounded, unarmed man 4 houses down the street and - fearing for his life - shoots the living shit out of him.

No video of what happened, so you go with forensic and eyewitness evidence.
RE: And that's the problem with narratives...  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13396748 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
and why the video evidence of a convenience store doesn't change things. It doesn't matter if he stole cigarillos or it was a drug deal gone wrong (even though I'm still trying to figure out how that makes him look better, especially for his promising career in the HVAC world). It shows Brown was prone to violence or at least a violent outburst.

But then again, when some outlets tried to promote the narrative that Wilson grabbed Brown and made him come inside the window, it seems quite unlikely give the respective sizes of the men involved. It is much more likely Brown was near or in the car through the window by his own choosing then being forced that way.

I'm not sure what changed this week, other than Brown continues to look bad in yet another capacity.


Funny how the earlier video doesn't mean anything but the video of his supposedly robbing the store no one had any problem using. I also disagree that it 'shows Brown was prone to violence or at least a violent outburst.'. If the earlier video was correct, it shows... at least to me... that Brown was just trying to get something he 'paid' for and wasn't allowed to do. He may or may not be someone 'prone to violence'... but neither video proved that either way.

As for the rest, it's probably 'more likely' based on your own personal experiences.
RE: Don't get me wrong, Brown wasn't a saint...  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13396772 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...but only the craziest of the crazy would do this: "As I'm opening the door he turns, faces me, looks at me and says, 'what the (expletive) are you going to do about it,' and shuts my door, slammed it shut "


Exactly.
RE: Some of you should take  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13396806 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
a weekend and read "Trust Me I'm Lying" to help educate yourselves on media manipulation. Not a 100% match to this story, but the concept is spot on.

Also you need to know that Obama's DOJ did a full review of the incident and while they found the Ferguson PD to show racist tendencies or worse, they found no evidence of corruption or inconsistencies in the official report from the Michael Brown incident.

To believe Brown's family's story or the documentary you have to want to believe Brown's familiy's story or feel the system is so corrupt they'd cover up a murder or at worst a manslaughter, everyone from all the responding LEO's the prosecutor, the coroner/ME, the hundreds of witnesses who wouldn't go public out of fear for their lives and Obama DOJ.

The FACTS from the DOJ report:

1. There is no evidence to suggest Wilson's use of force was unreasonable

2. Michael Brown did likely reach into Wilson's car and grab the officer

3. Michael Brown did double back to Wilson

4. Michael Brown's hands were probably not up, but it's impossible to say for sure

My sense is the DOJ would have preferred to find fault the other way and their report is scathing about the racist practices of the police force, however the specific incident detailed report the DOJ supported the official report.

There's also responses to the "new" really old video release and documentary that pretty much dispute or refute at least every claim it makes. Link to DOJ report summarize by WaPo - ( New Window )


Since when to 'facts' include words like 'likely' and 'it's impossible to say for sure'?

Unless they're of the 'alternative' variety?
I'm not going debate the truth of the testimony  
Jim in Fairfax : 3/17/2017 1:48 pm : link
I don't know for sure what happened and can't vouch for it either way.

My only point was that you said Wilson admitted in his testimony that Brown never reached for the gun, and that's just not true.
RE: Some of you should take  
Suburbanites : 3/17/2017 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13396806 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
a weekend and read "Trust Me I'm Lying" to help educate yourselves on media manipulation. Not a 100% match to this story, but the concept is spot on.

Also you need to know that Obama's DOJ did a full review of the incident and while they found the Ferguson PD to show racist tendencies or worse, they found no evidence of corruption or inconsistencies in the official report from the Michael Brown incident.

To believe Brown's family's story or the documentary you have to want to believe Brown's familiy's story or feel the system is so corrupt they'd cover up a murder or at worst a manslaughter, everyone from all the responding LEO's the prosecutor, the coroner/ME, the hundreds of witnesses who wouldn't go public out of fear for their lives and Obama DOJ.

The FACTS from the DOJ report:

1. There is no evidence to suggest Wilson's use of force was unreasonable

2. Michael Brown did likely reach into Wilson's car and grab the officer

3. Michael Brown did double back to Wilson

4. Michael Brown's hands were probably not up, but it's impossible to say for sure

My sense is the DOJ would have preferred to find fault the other way and their report is scathing about the racist practices of the police force, however the specific incident detailed report the DOJ supported the official report.

There's also responses to the "new" really old video release and documentary that pretty much dispute or refute at least every claim it makes. Link to DOJ report summarize by WaPo - ( New Window )


Spot on.
RE: RE: X  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13396830 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
In comment 13396788 Jim in Fairfax said:


Quote:


According to eyewitness testimonies, after being shot Brown ran away from the car down the street. Wilson exited the car and told him to stop. Brown turned and charged Wilson, resulting in the fatal gunshots the noted distance from the vehicle.

Yeah, I know the entire story.

Doesn't pass the smell test with me, but I accept the investigations results. Armed cop chases a wounded, unarmed man 4 houses down the street and - fearing for his life - shoots the living shit out of him.

No video of what happened, so you go with forensic and eyewitness evidence.


It didn't pass the smell test for me at first... but then I started to think that maybe Brown did... I don't want to say 'deserved' it, but maybe brought it on himself. So I'd come to peace with the decision. Now with this new video the admission of the police department freely using the 'N-word', and other findings I'm starting to feel back to the way I originally felt.

RE: I'm not going debate the truth of the testimony  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 1:51 pm : link
In comment 13396850 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
I don't know for sure what happened and can't vouch for it either way.

My only point was that you said Wilson admitted in his testimony that Brown never reached for the gun, and that's just not true.


Fair enough and thank you.
T-Bone..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/17/2017 1:54 pm : link
you aren't going to believe that testimony, but you'll believe this??

Quote:
the cop grabs one of the men through his window and a tussle breaks out


That's a heck of a lot more absurd than to think a guy is talking back to a police officer and threatening him.

My problem still exists in the way these stories are reported. The showing Brown as a cherubic 7 year old. In discussing his promising career as an HVAC technician. In creating the likely false "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" meme. In portraying this as an officer pulling up to a guy for no reason and just shooting him. The testimony and facts that are known contradict each and every one of those points.
RE: RE: Some of you should take  
pjcas18 : 3/17/2017 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13396845 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13396806 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


a weekend and read "Trust Me I'm Lying" to help educate yourselves on media manipulation. Not a 100% match to this story, but the concept is spot on.

Also you need to know that Obama's DOJ did a full review of the incident and while they found the Ferguson PD to show racist tendencies or worse, they found no evidence of corruption or inconsistencies in the official report from the Michael Brown incident.

To believe Brown's family's story or the documentary you have to want to believe Brown's familiy's story or feel the system is so corrupt they'd cover up a murder or at worst a manslaughter, everyone from all the responding LEO's the prosecutor, the coroner/ME, the hundreds of witnesses who wouldn't go public out of fear for their lives and Obama DOJ.

The FACTS from the DOJ report:

1. There is no evidence to suggest Wilson's use of force was unreasonable

2. Michael Brown did likely reach into Wilson's car and grab the officer

3. Michael Brown did double back to Wilson

4. Michael Brown's hands were probably not up, but it's impossible to say for sure

My sense is the DOJ would have preferred to find fault the other way and their report is scathing about the racist practices of the police force, however the specific incident detailed report the DOJ supported the official report.

There's also responses to the "new" really old video release and documentary that pretty much dispute or refute at least every claim it makes. Link to DOJ report summarize by WaPo - ( New Window )



Since when to 'facts' include words like 'likely' and 'it's impossible to say for sure'?

Unless they're of the 'alternative' variety?


By facts I meant they came from the official DOJ report who completed a thorough investigation, not a "documentary" where big "gotcha" is that Michael Brown actually traded drugs (or something else unnamed) for cigarillos which he decided not to take with him for some reason, but instead leave at the bodega for safe keeping, only later to come back and get them and have the store owner tell him to GTFO. That seems reasonable. That you find believable, but not a report Eric Holder commissioned.

And that's what juries need to make their decisions sometimes. words like likely.

And come on you have to at least admit if there was even the smallest shred of evidence that the shooting wasn't justified or the official report was corrupt the DOJ would have nailed him and the administration?


RE: RE: RE: X  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 1:57 pm : link
In comment 13396857 T-Bone said:
Quote:
It didn't pass the smell test for me at first... but then I started to think that maybe Brown did... I don't want to say 'deserved' it, but maybe brought it on himself. So I'd come to peace with the decision. Now with this new video the admission of the police department freely using the 'N-word', and other findings I'm starting to feel back to the way I originally felt.
Brown was - cop terminology - a 'perp', through and through. A street punk - you see it in the store video, a bully of the worst sort.

But given what we know now of the issues with that police department, only a complete madman would do the things Brown was reported to have done.

I'm with you in the belief that Brown put himself at risk for what happened. But I highly doubt that he did something deserving of being shot to death.

Again, no video. Ballistics and testimony and the DOJ did go through it. That's all you can do.
RE: RE: RE: RE: X  
Suburbanites : 3/17/2017 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13396871 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
In comment 13396857 T-Bone said:


Quote:


It didn't pass the smell test for me at first... but then I started to think that maybe Brown did... I don't want to say 'deserved' it, but maybe brought it on himself. So I'd come to peace with the decision. Now with this new video the admission of the police department freely using the 'N-word', and other findings I'm starting to feel back to the way I originally felt.


Brown was - cop terminology - a 'perp', through and through. A street punk - you see it in the store video, a bully of the worst sort.

But given what we know now of the issues with that police department, only a complete madman would do the things Brown was reported to have done.

I'm with you in the belief that Brown put himself at risk for what happened. But I highly doubt that he did something deserving of being shot to death.

Again, no video. Ballistics and testimony and the DOJ did go through it. That's all you can do.


But there were eyewitnesses who came forward and said they saw Michael Brown lunge towards Wilson's gun. The question is not nor should not be whether Brown deserved to die. The question is was the Police Officers actions justifiable and anyone without an agenda which would eliminate this so called documentary producer should conclude yes he was.
RE: T-Bone..  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13396866 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
you aren't going to believe that testimony, but you'll believe this??



Quote:


the cop grabs one of the men through his window and a tussle breaks out



That's a heck of a lot more absurd than to think a guy is talking back to a police officer and threatening him.

My problem still exists in the way these stories are reported. The showing Brown as a cherubic 7 year old. In discussing his promising career as an HVAC technician. In creating the likely false "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" meme. In portraying this as an officer pulling up to a guy for no reason and just shooting him. The testimony and facts that are known contradict each and every one of those points.


Uh... yeah. Why? Because I've had similar shit happen to me for no reason! If you've never experienced having a cop abuse his power on you for no reason other than the color of your skin, you would find it harder to believe I guess.

Regarding your second paragraph, yeah... better to show him robbing stores (even though he technically wasn't 'robbing' the store but retrieving his items he 'paid' for) even if that wasn't truly the case.
Even if he wasn't robbing..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/17/2017 2:22 pm : link
a store, video still shows him assaulting the store owner. Is it really an important distinction on whether or not the physical attack was due to a robbery or a drug deal gone wrong??
It is pretty bad when in trying some sliver of way to exonerate Brown's actions the difference is between robbery or a drug deal. Either way, he's shown to be a less than upstanding citizen who is prone to violence - the same aggressiveness he showed hours later.

And it furthers the thought that he's poor at decision making and interactions with others.

The problem with the defense of Brown is that there are so many other people to focus on where there is actually discrimination that's happened instead of clinging to the story of a punk who only became a flashpoint because of the way the Media handled the reporting of it.
The store owners totally disagree with this producer's new documentary  
giant24 : 3/17/2017 2:25 pm : link

Attorney Jay Kanzler, who represents the Ferguson Market and Liquor store, said in an interview Monday that his clients had no previous relationship with Brown and that no barter took place between Brown and the store clerks.

“The guy at the register tells him to get the hell out,” said Kanzler, who described the narrative proposed by Pollock’s documentary as irresponsible, noting that the video footage shows the clerks placing the items that had been in Brown’s bag back on the racks after Brown leaves. “If it was really meant to be a layaway transaction, you don’t take everything out of the bag and restock it.”

Kanzler said that Brown’s anger that he had been unable to barter for the cigarillos during his first visit could explain the second interaction with store employees, in which he is seen on video physically grabbing and shoving the store owner.

“The damage that has been done to this community as a result of this very reckless and false documentary, is sad, and we’ve taken five steps back,” Kanzler said. “This filmmaker with his 15 minutes of fame has left us all to pick up the pieces.”
Fats  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 4:16 pm : link
Quote:
Is it really an important distinction on whether or not the physical attack was due to a robbery or a drug deal gone wrong??


IMO it is because the supposed 'robbery' was part of the narrative that most liked to use to help folks believe that Brown was some violent black man (as we seem to like to be portrayed) and not someone who was trying to get back something he 'paid' for (whether the payment was drug, money or gummy bears). The way I see it, a couple of guys working at the store had Brown sell them some drugs in exchange for a box of cigarillos. Owner of the store, naturally, has no idea what's going on and when Brown comes back the next day to collect his box, the store owner thinks he's stealing it. A misunderstanding but nevertheless, Brown was trying to pick up what was supposed to be 'his'. The crazy thing about all this is if he'd simply taken the box with him, he'd probably still be alive today.

Quote:
Either way, he's shown to be a less than upstanding citizen who is prone to violence - the same aggressiveness he showed hours later.


Regarding the rest of your post, all are nothing more than your opinions shaped by the same media and narratives put out there that you're saying others shouldn't follow. I'm not going to definitively state whether Brown was a good guy or not as I don't know him personally and I haven't heard too many confirmed stories about his past that tell the story one way or the other. But using your logic, I could just as easily say that Wilson was a racist who targetted black people based on his free us of the word 'nigger' from him and his department right?

RE: The store owners totally disagree with this producer's new documentary  
T-Bone : 3/17/2017 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13396941 giant24 said:
Quote:

Attorney Jay Kanzler, who represents the Ferguson Market and Liquor store, said in an interview Monday that his clients had no previous relationship with Brown and that no barter took place between Brown and the store clerks.

“The guy at the register tells him to get the hell out,” said Kanzler, who described the narrative proposed by Pollock’s documentary as irresponsible, noting that the video footage shows the clerks placing the items that had been in Brown’s bag back on the racks after Brown leaves. “If it was really meant to be a layaway transaction, you don’t take everything out of the bag and restock it.”

Kanzler said that Brown’s anger that he had been unable to barter for the cigarillos during his first visit could explain the second interaction with store employees, in which he is seen on video physically grabbing and shoving the store owner.

“The damage that has been done to this community as a result of this very reckless and false documentary, is sad, and we’ve taken five steps back,” Kanzler said. “This filmmaker with his 15 minutes of fame has left us all to pick up the pieces.”


Yeah... I'm sure the owner of the store... who I'm going to guess had no knowledge of what was REALLY going on in his store... is going to freely say, "Yeah... that kid used to come in and give me and my guys weed in exchange for cigarillos all the time!'.

C'mon man.
#fakenews  
madgiantscow009 : 3/17/2017 4:39 pm : link
....
RE: RE: The store owners totally disagree with this producer's new documentary  
giant24 : 3/17/2017 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13397287 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13396941 giant24 said:


Quote:



Attorney Jay Kanzler, who represents the Ferguson Market and Liquor store, said in an interview Monday that his clients had no previous relationship with Brown and that no barter took place between Brown and the store clerks.

“The guy at the register tells him to get the hell out,” said Kanzler, who described the narrative proposed by Pollock’s documentary as irresponsible, noting that the video footage shows the clerks placing the items that had been in Brown’s bag back on the racks after Brown leaves. “If it was really meant to be a layaway transaction, you don’t take everything out of the bag and restock it.”

Kanzler said that Brown’s anger that he had been unable to barter for the cigarillos during his first visit could explain the second interaction with store employees, in which he is seen on video physically grabbing and shoving the store owner.

“The damage that has been done to this community as a result of this very reckless and false documentary, is sad, and we’ve taken five steps back,” Kanzler said. “This filmmaker with his 15 minutes of fame has left us all to pick up the pieces.”



Yeah... I'm sure the owner of the store... who I'm going to guess had no knowledge of what was REALLY going on in his store... is going to freely say, "Yeah... that kid used to come in and give me and my guys weed in exchange for cigarillos all the time!'.

C'mon man.


Yep everyone is in on the coverup - the courts, the Obama/Holder run DOJ, the store owner and all the witnesses and forensic evidence that backed Officer Wilson's testimony of what happened. We should believe Dorian Johnson's account of Mike Brown being shot in the back with his hands up.

C'mon man.
People will believe what they  
section125 : 3/17/2017 4:56 pm : link
want to believe. Problem is so many inaccuracies have been made and reported in this incident that I would not trust the documentary maker or the family, both looking for a buck.

I would believe the DOJ investigators since they went in looking to eviscerate the Ferguson PD and they did uncover massive racial bias which they reported. If Eric Holder's investigators exonerated Wilson, then chances are his testimony was truthful and accurate. Let's face it, when the President sends the DOJ into investigate small town police, the small town doesn't stand a chance of covering up an incident.

And x meadowlander - there are very few people on earth that can get hammered in the head and then be able to shoot somebody 152 feet away (50 yds) with a 4 inch barrel hand gun. Damn few that could do it on a range. I doubt a cop under duress could pull that off.
RE: People will believe what they  
x meadowlander : 3/17/2017 7:50 pm : link
In comment 13397380 section125 said:
Quote:


And x meadowlander - there are very few people on earth that can get hammered in the head and then be able to shoot somebody 152 feet away (50 yds) with a 4 inch barrel hand gun. Damn few that could do it on a range. I doubt a cop under duress could pull that off.
I don't follow. Brown was shot at close range.
This isn't true..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/17/2017 10:53 pm : link
Quote:
IMO it is because the supposed 'robbery' was part of the narrative that most liked to use to help folks believe that Brown was some violent black man (as we seem to like to be portrayed) and not someone who was trying to get back something he 'paid' for (whether the payment was drug, money or gummy bears).


The narrative of being a violent black man wasn't because of a robbery - it was because he assaulted a person. The circumstances of the assault don't really matter since it just shows that he can indeed be a violent guy, not the cherubic picture the Media kept showing of a 10 year old.

Again - this goes back to the Media portrayal of the early reporting. The rush to create a narrative based on uncorroborated reports. Hell, protesters in several different cases when confronted by police kept saying "Hands up, don't shoot" even though it is unlikely Brown ever said this. It goes to the continued attempt to stoke the flames of race when reporting the initial incidents, whether it is calling George Zimmerman white in the early days of that incident, or acting as if the guy shot in Charlotte was just a peaceful man sitting in a car reading a book and picking his son up from school, when he was smoking weed, had a gun holstered to his leg and had a restraining order placed on him by his wife.

It is lazy and it had seriously detrimental implications. Just ask business owners who had their places torched in Ferguson or the family of the man shot during the riots in Charlotte - by-products of slanted reporting.
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