Vernon's base was only $1.75M and he also received a $20M signing bonus (pro-rated over 5 years), but he also received a roster bonus ($7M) and a workout bonus ($250k) in the first year of his deal. The roster/workout bonuses are NOT pro-rated, thus his 1st year cap hit was: $1.75 + $20/5 + $7 + $0.25 = $13M.
and first 11 months might not include his 2nd year base salary since he technically doesn't get that until September 2018. So the $34M could just be his SB ($20M) plus his first year salary, plus a 2018 roster bonus.
Roster bonuses are easily converted to signing bonuses so that they can be amortized.
RE: Milton is guessing based on the little information Â
20M SB
Year 1 salary-6M(11M cap hit)
Year 2 salary-8M(13M cap hit)
Year 3 salary-13M(partially gtd)(18M cap hit)
Year 4 salary-19M(24M cap hit, 5M dead money if released)
Chandler Jones just signed 5yr 83m 53m Guaranteed Â
So this contract makes sense, slightly smaller with the potential to reach that level with incentives. Tough to digest but you had to figure that this is what it would cost.
I think they need to let Hankins walk though, we now have enough cap dollars tied up on the D line. I'd like to see them add a bargain DE/DT tweener in free agency with the cap space, Jared Odrick makes sense.
and first 11 months might not include his 2nd year base salary since he technically doesn't get that until September 2018. So the $34M could just be his SB ($20M) plus his first year salary, plus a 2018 roster bonus.
Roster bonuses are easily converted to signing bonuses so that they can be amortized.
When was the last time this happened? Typically teams (Dallas with Smith/Frederick, Dolphins with Suh, etc) have large base salaries in years 2-3+ of the deal, which they then convert to a restructure bonus. Off hand, I don't recall the Giants touching roster bonuses other than as part of a restructure and/or paycut (e.g. Cruz).
RE: Seems like its truly a 3 year $40 million deal Â
If I'm reading this correctly it means his cap hit this year is $11 million instead of the $16.934 million it would have been had he played under the franchise tag, so that adds about $6 million to the cap? Is that correct? If so OTC is saying that before this contract the Giants only had $3,282,766 in cap space so their new cap number is $9,282,766. Does that seem right?
If I'm reading this correctly it means his cap hit this year is $11 million instead of the $16.934 million it would have been had he played under the franchise tag, so that adds about $6 million to the cap? Is that correct? If so OTC is saying that before this contract the Giants only had $3,282,766 in cap space so their new cap number is $9,282,766. Does that seem right?
Unknown until we see salary breakdown, but your estimates are about right. Could be more savings too.
Roster bonuses are easily converted to signing bonuses so that they can be amortized.
When was the last time this happened?
Then you tell me how you get to $34M in compensation over the first 11 months when the original signing bonus is $20M?
Sure. I'd start by looking at recent big deals the Giants have signed for Vernon, Jenkins, and Snacks. All 3 of these have a low year one base salary + signing bonus + year 1 roster bonus (paid now, not amortized).
So, for JPP we know his SB = $20M. I'll give him the same $1.75M base as Vernon and Snacks and also assume he's get $250k workout bonuses each of the 4 years. That's $22M total. Next, like the 3 above players, he's also likely to get a roster bonus in 2017. Let's make that the same as Vernon's ($7M). So now he's getting $29M between now and next February, which leaves a $5M roster bonus for next year (Note: these numbers change if it's really $34M in the first 2 seasons rather than first 11 months).
We also know that the total deal is $62M with $49.5M paid in the first 3 years (IIRC). That means his final year base salary is $12.25M (last $250k is the workout bonus)
2017: $1.75M B $5M SB $7M RB $0.25 WB = $14M cap hit
2018: $4M B $5M SB $5M RB $0.25 WB = $14.25M cap hit
2019: $11M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $16.25M cap hit
2020: $12.25M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $17.5M cap hit
Total: $62M
Per a source with knowledge of the situation, it’s a four-year deal with a base value of $62 million. Of that amount, $29 million is fully guaranteed at signing.
The cash flow is as follows: $22.5 million in 2017, $35 million through 2018, $49.5 million through 2019, and $62 million. Incentives can push the value of the contract to $66 million.
If the $20M signing bonus report is true, this suggests a cap hit of $6.5M this year. I'm guessing there's a little bit of misinformation going on, but the exact numbers will come out within a couple of days, so no biggie.
RE: This is my simple guess as to the structure.. Â
20M SB
Year 1 salary-6M(11M cap hit)
Year 2 salary-8M(13M cap hit)
Year 3 salary-13M(partially gtd)(18M cap hit)
Year 4 salary-19M(24M cap hit, 5M dead money if released)
He's (reportedly) getting $49.5M over the first 3 years with a $20M signing bonus ($5M against the cap per year). So there's no way his year 4 salary is $19M. It's $12.5M minus roster/workout bonuses due that year (based on the deals last year, I'd guess he gets $250k workout each year and only Jenkins receive a roster bonus outside of year 1).
2017: $1.75M B $5M SB $7M RB $0.25 WB = $14M cap hit
2018: $4M B $5M SB $5M RB $0.25 WB = $14.25M cap hit
2019: $11M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $16.25M cap hit
2020: $12.25M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $17.5M cap hit
Total: $62M
We'll see but I find it hard to believe that the Giants signed him to a 4 year $62M deal with $40M guaranteed just so they could shave $3M off of this year's cap.
Per a source with knowledge of the situation, it’s a four-year deal with a base value of $62 million. Of that amount, $29 million is fully guaranteed at signing.
The cash flow is as follows: $22.5 million in 2017, $35 million through 2018, $49.5 million through 2019, and $62 million. Incentives can push the value of the contract to $66 million.
If the $20M signing bonus report is true, this suggests a cap hit of $6.5M this year. I'm guessing there's a little bit of misinformation going on, but the exact numbers will come out within a couple of days, so no biggie.
If this is right it would be a $7.5M first year cap hit ($5M from SB + $2.5M base/other bonus).
And as I suspected, it's $34-35M through 2018, not the first 11 months. Based on this info, I would say the structure is:
2017: $1.75M base _ $5M sb _ $500k rb _ $0.25 wb = $7.5M cap hit
2018: $12.25M base ($6.5M gtd) _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
2019: $14.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $19.5M cap hit
2020: $12.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: roster bonuses are NOT amortized Â
2017: $1.75M B $5M SB $7M RB $0.25 WB = $14M cap hit
2018: $4M B $5M SB $5M RB $0.25 WB = $14.25M cap hit
2019: $11M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $16.25M cap hit
2020: $12.25M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $17.5M cap hit
Total: $62M
We'll see but I find it hard to believe that the Giants signed him to a 4 year $62M deal with $40M guaranteed just so they could shave $3M off of this year's cap.
They signed him to the deal so they'd have a (second) premier pass rusher locked up for 4 seasons.
That said, with the new info (assuming its accurate) about the $35M thru 2018 instead of 11 months, I've ammended this.
This type of structure makes more sense for the Giants Â
2017: $1.75M base _ $5M sb _ $500k rb _ $0.25 wb = $7.5M cap hit
2018: $12.25M base ($6.5M gtd) _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
2019: $14.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $19.5M cap hit
2020: $12.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
I'm expecting it to look earily similar to this when the official numbers are released.
but hopefully it is front loaded. Pay him now and in 18 months when we all realize what a disaster it was to give the following player 40 million guaranteed:
1. A man with 7 fingers
2. With proven immaturity issues (Prince in Tub/Fireworks)
3. And motivation issues (came to camp looking like Kevin James one year)
4. And injury concerns (Bad back/surgery and dinged all the time)
We can cut bait and move on without really crippling us in 2 years.
RE: This type of structure makes more sense for the Giants Â
2017: $1.75M base _ $5M sb _ $500k rb _ $0.25 wb = $7.5M cap hit
2018: $12.25M base ($6.5M gtd) _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
2019: $14.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $19.5M cap hit
2020: $12.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
I'm expecting it to look earily similar to this when the official numbers are released.
The one thing that stands out is his 2019 number since Eli's cap # will be $23.2M, Vernon's $19.5M, Jenkins $13.25M and Beckham will be starting his big money deal that season. Excluding Beckham, that's $75M in cap space for 4 players!
Maybe they'll structure Pugh & Richburg's deals to have cap hits below average in 2019.
The cap will be in the $180-185 million rnge by then... Â
Robinson back. And a Vet RB Blount,Starks,Charles,etc
+1
Robinson was great in pass coverage and would be great to bring him back for another year. Plus the Giants are an attractive destination for a vet RB, with really only Paul Perkins to contend with for the starting job.
Hoping Jamaal Charles lowers his asking price and accepts a 1 year vet minimum contract just to have a shot to be a starting RB again. Having a 1-2 combo of Charles and Perkins would be great, along with Shane Vereen on 3rd downs.
Long term because of the presence of Vernon.
Vernon brought leadership and work ethic and dedication that fed into jpp both on and off the field
I'm sure snacks helped too
But they have no maturity concerns now
You don't worry about 2019 numbers because in most cases all the guaranteed money other than SB amortization is paid. The contracts are really essentially front loaded
I thought they'd keep it further under $14M per than they did Â
Long term because of the presence of Vernon.
Vernon brought leadership and work ethic and dedication that fed into jpp both on and off the field
I'm sure snacks helped too
But they have no maturity concerns now
Is this your opinion or knowledge of the situation? I ask because it appeared as though the situation changed him and how he approaches things rather than his new teammates.
RE: I thought they'd keep it further under $14M per than they did Â
and they paid him more than I expected, JPP's camp must have really stood their ground well.
There's only so much you can do. What they were asking for was on par with market rate for top defensive ends.
The "giants have all the leverage" stuff is almost always fan fiction every time you hear it.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the team has always been much higher on him as a person and a player than fans here have been. They have been trying to get him signed long term for years, and stuck by him through everything.
If you're a team that doesn't trust a player or you're lukewarm on his effort or behavior, this is not how you demonstrate it.
Long term because of the presence of Vernon.
Vernon brought leadership and work ethic and dedication that fed into jpp both on and off the field
I'm sure snacks helped too
But they have no maturity concerns now
I suspected this, tbh. Vernon and Snacks work ehtics and attitudes rubbing off on JPP doesn't surprise me.
RE: RE: I thought they'd keep it further under $14M per than they did Â
and they paid him more than I expected, JPP's camp must have really stood their ground well.
There's only so much you can do. What they were asking for was on par with market rate for top defensive ends.
The "giants have all the leverage" stuff is almost always fan fiction every time you hear it.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the team has always been much higher on him as a person and a player than fans here have been. They have been trying to get him signed long term for years, and stuck by him through everything.
If you're a team that doesn't trust a player or you're lukewarm on his effort or behavior, this is not how you demonstrate it.
Seeing what other DEs of lesser ability got and seeing OV with $85 mill, there was no way to get it under $14 mill/year.
for finally signing one of his first round draft picks to a multi-year contract. It has only taken a decade to get this monkey off his back.
In fairness, not a helluva lot of them have been healthy enough to get to the second contract and if so, were injury prone enough (i.e. Prince) not to pursue
IMO thats not close to what OV got.
Okay thanks
No offense, but Milton's guess is garbage since roster bonuses aren't amortized. So his cap #s make zero sense.
20M SB
Year 1 salary-6M(11M cap hit)
Year 2 salary-8M(13M cap hit)
Year 3 salary-13M(partially gtd)(18M cap hit)
Year 4 salary-19M(24M cap hit, 5M dead money if released)
I think they need to let Hankins walk though, we now have enough cap dollars tied up on the D line. I'd like to see them add a bargain DE/DT tweener in free agency with the cap space, Jared Odrick makes sense.
Quote:
and first 11 months might not include his 2nd year base salary since he technically doesn't get that until September 2018. So the $34M could just be his SB ($20M) plus his first year salary, plus a 2018 roster bonus.
Roster bonuses are easily converted to signing bonuses so that they can be amortized.
When was the last time this happened? Typically teams (Dallas with Smith/Frederick, Dolphins with Suh, etc) have large base salaries in years 2-3+ of the deal, which they then convert to a restructure bonus. Off hand, I don't recall the Giants touching roster bonuses other than as part of a restructure and/or paycut (e.g. Cruz).
When was the last time this happened?
Unknown until we see salary breakdown, but your estimates are about right. Could be more savings too.
Quote:
for a guy who's rarely been a consistent performer over a full season.
This^^^
Except he is one of the best DEs in the NFL. True he has missed time, but he's still top 5.
Quote:
Roster bonuses are easily converted to signing bonuses so that they can be amortized.
When was the last time this happened?
Then you tell me how you get to $34M in compensation over the first 11 months when the original signing bonus is $20M?
Sure. I'd start by looking at recent big deals the Giants have signed for Vernon, Jenkins, and Snacks. All 3 of these have a low year one base salary + signing bonus + year 1 roster bonus (paid now, not amortized).
So, for JPP we know his SB = $20M. I'll give him the same $1.75M base as Vernon and Snacks and also assume he's get $250k workout bonuses each of the 4 years. That's $22M total. Next, like the 3 above players, he's also likely to get a roster bonus in 2017. Let's make that the same as Vernon's ($7M). So now he's getting $29M between now and next February, which leaves a $5M roster bonus for next year (Note: these numbers change if it's really $34M in the first 2 seasons rather than first 11 months).
We also know that the total deal is $62M with $49.5M paid in the first 3 years (IIRC). That means his final year base salary is $12.25M (last $250k is the workout bonus)
2017: $1.75M B $5M SB $7M RB $0.25 WB = $14M cap hit
2018: $4M B $5M SB $5M RB $0.25 WB = $14.25M cap hit
2019: $11M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $16.25M cap hit
2020: $12.25M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $17.5M cap hit
Total: $62M
The cash flow is as follows: $22.5 million in 2017, $35 million through 2018, $49.5 million through 2019, and $62 million. Incentives can push the value of the contract to $66 million.
20M SB
Year 1 salary-6M(11M cap hit)
Year 2 salary-8M(13M cap hit)
Year 3 salary-13M(partially gtd)(18M cap hit)
Year 4 salary-19M(24M cap hit, 5M dead money if released)
He's (reportedly) getting $49.5M over the first 3 years with a $20M signing bonus ($5M against the cap per year). So there's no way his year 4 salary is $19M. It's $12.5M minus roster/workout bonuses due that year (based on the deals last year, I'd guess he gets $250k workout each year and only Jenkins receive a roster bonus outside of year 1).
2017: $1.75M B $5M SB $7M RB $0.25 WB = $14M cap hit
2018: $4M B $5M SB $5M RB $0.25 WB = $14.25M cap hit
2019: $11M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $16.25M cap hit
2020: $12.25M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $17.5M cap hit
Total: $62M
Quote:
Per a source with knowledge of the situation, it’s a four-year deal with a base value of $62 million. Of that amount, $29 million is fully guaranteed at signing.
The cash flow is as follows: $22.5 million in 2017, $35 million through 2018, $49.5 million through 2019, and $62 million. Incentives can push the value of the contract to $66 million.
If the $20M signing bonus report is true, this suggests a cap hit of $6.5M this year. I'm guessing there's a little bit of misinformation going on, but the exact numbers will come out within a couple of days, so no biggie.
If this is right it would be a $7.5M first year cap hit ($5M from SB + $2.5M base/other bonus).
And as I suspected, it's $34-35M through 2018, not the first 11 months. Based on this info, I would say the structure is:
2017: $1.75M base _ $5M sb _ $500k rb _ $0.25 wb = $7.5M cap hit
2018: $12.25M base ($6.5M gtd) _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
2019: $14.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $19.5M cap hit
2020: $12.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
Quote:
2017: $1.75M B $5M SB $7M RB $0.25 WB = $14M cap hit
2018: $4M B $5M SB $5M RB $0.25 WB = $14.25M cap hit
2019: $11M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $16.25M cap hit
2020: $12.25M B $5M SB $0.25 WB = $17.5M cap hit
Total: $62M
We'll see but I find it hard to believe that the Giants signed him to a 4 year $62M deal with $40M guaranteed just so they could shave $3M off of this year's cap.
They signed him to the deal so they'd have a (second) premier pass rusher locked up for 4 seasons.
That said, with the new info (assuming its accurate) about the $35M thru 2018 instead of 11 months, I've ammended this.
2018: $12.25M base ($6.5M gtd) _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
2019: $14.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $19.5M cap hit
2020: $12.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
I'm expecting it to look earily similar to this when the official numbers are released.
1. A man with 7 fingers
2. With proven immaturity issues (Prince in Tub/Fireworks)
3. And motivation issues (came to camp looking like Kevin James one year)
4. And injury concerns (Bad back/surgery and dinged all the time)
We can cut bait and move on without really crippling us in 2 years.
2018: $12.25M base ($6.5M gtd) _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
2019: $14.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $19.5M cap hit
2020: $12.25M base _ $5M sb _ $0.25 wb = $17.5M cap hit
I'm expecting it to look earily similar to this when the official numbers are released.
The one thing that stands out is his 2019 number since Eli's cap # will be $23.2M, Vernon's $19.5M, Jenkins $13.25M and Beckham will be starting his big money deal that season. Excluding Beckham, that's $75M in cap space for 4 players!
Maybe they'll structure Pugh & Richburg's deals to have cap hits below average in 2019.
+1
Robinson was great in pass coverage and would be great to bring him back for another year. Plus the Giants are an attractive destination for a vet RB, with really only Paul Perkins to contend with for the starting job.
Hoping Jamaal Charles lowers his asking price and accepts a 1 year vet minimum contract just to have a shot to be a starting RB again. Having a 1-2 combo of Charles and Perkins would be great, along with Shane Vereen on 3rd downs.
Vernon brought leadership and work ethic and dedication that fed into jpp both on and off the field
I'm sure snacks helped too
But they have no maturity concerns now
Vernon brought leadership and work ethic and dedication that fed into jpp both on and off the field
I'm sure snacks helped too
But they have no maturity concerns now
Is this your opinion or knowledge of the situation? I ask because it appeared as though the situation changed him and how he approaches things rather than his new teammates.
There's only so much you can do. What they were asking for was on par with market rate for top defensive ends.
The "giants have all the leverage" stuff is almost always fan fiction every time you hear it.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the team has always been much higher on him as a person and a player than fans here have been. They have been trying to get him signed long term for years, and stuck by him through everything.
If you're a team that doesn't trust a player or you're lukewarm on his effort or behavior, this is not how you demonstrate it.
maybe he is ready to finally become team CAPTAIN
Vernon brought leadership and work ethic and dedication that fed into jpp both on and off the field
I'm sure snacks helped too
But they have no maturity concerns now
I suspected this, tbh. Vernon and Snacks work ehtics and attitudes rubbing off on JPP doesn't surprise me.
Quote:
and they paid him more than I expected, JPP's camp must have really stood their ground well.
There's only so much you can do. What they were asking for was on par with market rate for top defensive ends.
The "giants have all the leverage" stuff is almost always fan fiction every time you hear it.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the team has always been much higher on him as a person and a player than fans here have been. They have been trying to get him signed long term for years, and stuck by him through everything.
If you're a team that doesn't trust a player or you're lukewarm on his effort or behavior, this is not how you demonstrate it.
Seeing what other DEs of lesser ability got and seeing OV with $85 mill, there was no way to get it under $14 mill/year.
In fairness, not a helluva lot of them have been healthy enough to get to the second contract and if so, were injury prone enough (i.e. Prince) not to pursue
Are you forgetting what happened to guys like Hakeem Nicks, Kenny Phillips or David Wilson? Or is the Coughlin worship just *that* pathetic?
Quote:
for finally signing one of his first round draft picks to a multi-year contract. It has only taken a decade to get this monkey off his back.
Are you forgetting what happened to guys like Hakeem Nicks, Kenny Phillips or David Wilson? Or is the Coughlin worship just *that* pathetic?
I love how he completely ignores mentioning any of the context. Some people should just give it up, and go root for Jax already.