I'm loving this off-season for Jerry Reese, he's addressed almost all the holes on this team. Especially if Hankins accepts Reese's one year contact offer to return.
Although, outside of swapping Marshall Newhouse with DJ Fluker, we are returning everyone from the O-Line last year that struggled to generate a consistent run game or protect Eli. Seems like an ton is riding on the shoulders of Ereck Flowers on if he can hold up at Left Tackle.
If he can, then it's like a domino effect on the rest of the O-Line and we can be serious contenders. If he can't, we might struggle to score points like we did the last 6 games of the season.
What are your thoughts on Ereck Flowers this season, do you think he can take his game to the next level and lock down the Left Tackle position?
Him raising his game slightly is not only realistic, it will pay huge dividends for 2017 and beyond.
These types of trades tend to happen right around the draft - like when we almost traded Cofield for a 2nd rounder.
BBI translation: Well..if he's doing THAT, it probably means nobody is there helping him. What a bad idea. He sucks.
Ha, spot on
Jerry worked hard and became a decent player, he needs to continue this trend, and Fluker is a player that is very similar to Flowers, another underachiever, when I look at Flowers play I don't see a player that is so overmatched that there is no hope, I see a player making some stupid mistakes, and I see him letting his emotions get the best of him at times also.
I think he can become a pretty good player, and I have said this before and will repeat it, I think he just needs to work his ass off to get the kind of play we need from him. I don't think he has done that, and that is partly the coaching staffs responsibility, they need to tap into that motor, if it is possible with this kid.
The other thing is that we still have the draft, and people writing off the possibility that there is not a starting left tackle in this draft, or a starting right tackle that can help this offensive line this season is also premature, I agree we should not bank on that, but I have seen this all before, they say it's a bad draft for starting tackles, then when players start to play and do well they all backtrack, I have seen that story too many times with other positions too.
The last thing is that it was McAdoo's first season, he made many rookie mistakes, but the team made the playoffs and won 11 games, I think this coach is going to be better this year and that may make a huge difference, especially in regards to preparation and even the play calling. I do not think the entire season hinges on Flowers, not by a long shot, he could make a difference for the team but I would not put all this on him at all. There are 52 other players on the team, and there is an entire coaching staff. To place the season on him is just unfair.
2nd year, the new coach is trying to fix his technique and break the bad habits. Rather than not having to think about what your body is doing he is out there having to think way too much. Hence you will appear to regress rather than make advances. Those fractions of seconds matter a lot in the NFL. That is why he looks good at times and horrible at others. Coaches are saying he is working hard so I will go with those who see him every day up close.
From your O-Line-savvy mouth to God's ear.
I know this much:
There's debate over Flowers' level of play, but it's clear he wasn't good enough.
The Giants know that he wasn't good enough.
The front office's job includes having a Plan B should any player get hurt or fail. Sometimes those plans are thin (Geno Smith at QB if Eli misses time?) and sometimes they fail, but they exist.
So are the Giants banking their entire 2017 season on Ereck Flowers being a top OLT? Highly unlikely. More likely: They are working with him, expecting him to improve, hoping for the best and quietly preparing for the worst.
...do you think he can take his game to the next level and lock down the Left Tackle position?
Short answer: NO!
Long answer: HELL NO!
Anyhow as far as OL goes.. that was our biggest and second biggest need going into this season and we have done nothing on that front to solve the issue and whoever we draft isn't going to be as good a prospect as Fluker, Pugh or Flowers and all 3 of those have disappointed.. While we could've lived with no TE or a second WR there is no way this team will survive if our OL plays like last year.. and so far we have done nothing to improve it..
If his seasons were transposed, you'd see something he could build off of in his rookie season and potential. Some have lost sight of that because of his sophomore campaign. It's too early to do that.
Take your pick
Whose not calm? This is a discussion board and we're having a discussion about Ereck Flowers. LOL
I dont look at Flowers being as much of a problem as many of you do. Yes hes a grabber....all young LTs that start from day one not named Ogden, Pace, or Munoz are. Yes, he has got beaten because of bad feet..,.that can be taught to be corrected. What you cant teach is his size, athleticism and propensity towards violence. As many others have said: hes 22! Most rookies are his age and he has two years under his belt. You can make the argument that he was a bit of a reach. But you cant deny his physical tools and his potential to dominate his side of the line. You dont give up on that after two years.
My solution is to either draft a tackle to play either spot with Flowers at the other and put Fluker at gaurd or draft a guard and let Fluker and Hart battle it out.Iwould be really happy if they drafted a tackle and a gaurd early and have some real competition for these spots.
They still have the draft, but at the moment staying with Flowers as opposed to FA was the better move
So through a combo of factors, Flowers will get another chance (likely with a draft pick low at OL to maybe push him, or maybe more likely push for RT). He's still very young, and physically has the tools to be really good. He could put it together and become a beast - players develop after a few years all the time, OL is said to be a position with a fair learning curve, and I expect the Giants will do everything possible to not only coach him up, but scheme to help him too (Welcome MR. Ellison!). If he can even bring his play up to even just average, with an O that gets rid of the ball quickly like ours, that may be enough to get really good results. We basically have all of last year's pieces (possibly less Hankins) plus a few new toys on O, and will still add some impact in draft/replacement DT if Hankins leaves (hopefully). There's a lot to be excited about for this team - people focus on OL because it's the biggest hole right now, but there's a lot else to like if we can get a little improvement from the OL
He needs some help...and he's got a lot of work to do, but he has tremendous talent. Cover him with a TE.....run at him...... let him grow up a bit.
If you're gonna draft young linemen, you've got to help them...and you grow through the pain...they won 11 Games with their young linemen struggling---I believe they will bust out.
ZERO faith in Flower Boy.
It is MUCH harder to play left tackle than it is to play guard. That is why they pay them a lot more money. I dont get why people think Flowers is going to magically transform into a competent tackle in 2017. From what I have seen, he does his best work moving forward, so why not guard? Don't give me this shit that a guard has to have the feet of a LT. They dont. No one is saying it's easy to play guard, but the necessary kick out footwork and , agilty, deciphering bull from speed rush, from dip and rip from spin moves, the way a LT has to, is totally different for a guard. Flowers was absolutely atrocious trying to protect Eli from guys like James Harrison and Nick Perry. You want more of that? Or do you think last season was just an "off" season, or a blip on the radar, or an anomaly in this 2 year pro's career, who had major technique question marks coming out of college? What I dont understand is how Giants fans are willing to roll the dice that this guy gets it. He was absolutely horrible last year. Tell me otherwise.
B, iirc, you said Flower's major flaws were being bent at the waist and keeping his hands to low to deliver an effective punch.
Sounds like he needs to keep his ass lower with hands chest high, correct?
Also, foot speed is not an issue.
I think if they are creative it can be done:
Like our 1st and our 4th round picks for Thomas and Cleveland's 2nd round pick.
I see the Browns doing Thomas the favor of having the chance to play for a ring before he hangs them up.
WIN-WIN
If we were to send a 1 and a 4 it would likely be straight up for Thomas or maybe we'd get a 6th rounder out of the deal.
I've mentioned Dave Diehl a couple of times as a guy without, I think, a lot of athleticism or great footwork. He was a Parcell's "lunch pail" lineman who showed up, worked hard and played hard and usually kept himself between the pass rusher and his QB.
Such a player would not be very expensive because he would be on the wrong side of 30 without a resume full of Pro Bowl selections. He could hold down the fort until a rookie was able to take over.
I'm thinking a little about Kiwika Mitchell here. Different situation, but some similarities. A free agent not in much demand, Jerry signed him I think last minute when Torbor went down. Contract one year one million.
For that he started all 16 games, 3.5 sacks and a pick 6.
In the playoffs he had two more sacks and returned a fumble for a TD.
Maybe Jerry could find a rent-a-player for a year for left tackle.
Quote:
Guard, especially LG, is just as much a footwork and technique role in the Giants offense as anything, and technique is where he's weakest. Are we just assuming guard would be an easier position to play because it's not as glamorous a position as LT?
It is MUCH harder to play left tackle than it is to play guard. That is why they pay them a lot more money. I dont get why people think Flowers is going to magically transform into a competent tackle in 2017. From what I have seen, he does his best work moving forward, so why not guard? Don't give me this shit that a guard has to have the feet of a LT. They dont. No one is saying it's easy to play guard, but the necessary kick out footwork and , agilty, deciphering bull from speed rush, from dip and rip from spin moves, the way a LT has to, is totally different for a guard. Flowers was absolutely atrocious trying to protect Eli from guys like James Harrison and Nick Perry. You want more of that? Or do you think last season was just an "off" season, or a blip on the radar, or an anomaly in this 2 year pro's career, who had major technique question marks coming out of college? What I dont understand is how Giants fans are willing to roll the dice that this guy gets it. He was absolutely horrible last year. Tell me otherwise.
Nobody is arguing he's going to magically transform or that he was good last year. Players can improve with time and work. Landon Collins turned out pretty well for a player the lunatics on here declared was a lost cause after one year. If your argument to move him to a different position is because of matchups, pass rushers all over the league move around and play matchups. When flowers was stonewalling Greg Hardy years ago, they flipped Hardy to the other side of the line in the same game, for example.
Also, Nick Perry had 11 sacks last year and James Harrison has been an accomplished high level pass rusher for 10 years. They aren't bums Flowers should be ashamed to have lost matchups to. It's a weird thing to argue.
The Giants knew exactly what they were getting with Flowers when they drafted him 9th overall in the 2015 Draft. A young, unpolished, extremely raw, and technically-flawed player with massive long-term upside potential. Yet, we continue to keep hearing ALL the NFL Armchair GM's out there chomping at the bit to replace Flowers after only 2 years in the NFL.
Thank God MOST of you out don't have the ability to control or manipulate an NFL roster!
This is a big year for Flowers, but I'm confident he will turn the corner and have a strong season for the Giants in 2017.
Teams just don't give up on draft picks, especially 1st rounders, after only two years in the league. We knew there were going to be some lumps and growing pains. Let's give this kid a chance...
He's still very young as many pointed out, has all the physical tools, and can hopefully progress some in year 3. If he has been resistant to coaching in the past, I'd hope his 1st 2 NFL years should teach him to listen now. Guys can get by w/bad technique in college, but it gets exposed in the pros. If he can get coached up and dedicate himself to improving, he can make himself a lot of money and carve out a career. If not, he may be out of the league in another few years.
The OL market this year showed how many teams are desperate for help, especially at OT. Guys with track records no better than Flowers cashed in big time (Joekle, etc). It's not easy to find these guys, and teams will take chance on failed prospects from other teams hoping the work out. We don't need him to be Orlando Pace, just a solid year at LT should be enough to let this O really be good...
Flowers turns 23 next month and has all the size, speed, athleticism, and football IQ that the Giants look for when drafting players.
Let's hope he turns the corner this year. And, I firmly believe he will.
He's young. He's likely going to get one more year to improve at LT. Maybe the Giants draft a tackle early to push him, maybe they don't or can't but people act like there's absolutely no hope at all with Flowers and he was the sole reason why the offense struggled. Not to mention, we just won 11 games with Flowers struggling. This talk that the Giants can't win with him is not true. They just did. Yes they need to see improvement but there's going to be improvement based on the massive upgrade to TE and WR, and we haven't even conducted the draft yet.
Not blasting the OP. Just this constant barrage of fear towards the LT spot. I know LT is a vital position but you can't have all pros at every spot. Some positions will struggle. Some guys also do in fact improve. You wouldn't know it if you listened to the masses.
I think Cruz's horrible efforts in the blocking game were one of the major factors in him being released.
I dont look at Flowers being as much of a problem as many of you do. Yes hes a grabber....all young LTs that start from day one not named Ogden, Pace, or Munoz are. Yes, he has got beaten because of bad feet..,.that can be taught to be corrected. What you cant teach is his size, athleticism and propensity towards violence. As many others have said: hes 22! Most rookies are his age and he has two years under his belt. You can make the argument that he was a bit of a reach. But you cant deny his physical tools and his potential to dominate his side of the line. You dont give up on that after two years.
lol sorry I ramble sometimes.
OK fine I ramble all the time. I feel sorry for my wife.
So you are absolutely certain that 2 years is enough time for a player? Have you never seen a player develop in year 3?
It's one thing to think a player might never develop but to say you are certain? Even when the team has said they still believe in the guy. But you're certain.
Either you have a short memory or you haven't been watching the NFL longer than 2 years. Some players do need 2-3 years. Plenty of players actually.
While it is true that the McAdoo offense last year was primarily designed on quick passes, somewhat based on the Green Bay offense, that is not the whole story.
The problem was that when the Giants did run the ball, they averaged 3.6 Yards per carry- good for 29th in the league- with only the Bucs, Rams and Vikings (who lost Peterson for most of the season) being worse.
In short, the Giants did not run the ball because they COULD NOT run the ball. In turn, defenses had no reason not to bring the house on every play- because it was going to be a rare thing for the Giants RB to DO something with the ball, so there was no real need to stay honest on defense.
The Giants focus on the off-season has been all about improving their run game- adding a solid blocking WR, a good mobile TE/FB who can block and a big OL who at least has a track record in prior years of being a good run blocker.
IMO, the Giants with Eli at QB probably never get below a 55% pass play percentage- with the number likely closer to 60% of all plays being pass plays. However, context matters- so if the Giants run plays at league average to a little above (4.3 to 4.5 yards per rush), that has a impact on the passing game as well.
If teams must respect the run, then teams can no longer attack upfield relentlessly- like what happened last year. Instead, you need to have LB maintain run lanes, ends and rush LB must contain and read run- which costs them a second of rush time, and at least one S will have run read responsibilities.
In turn, that means fewer bodies for the OL to block and a critical second gained while the defender reads run or pass. It also give Eli that extra second or two to find an open receiver. By having a legit blocking TE/FB, you also get to chip at least one defender (helping at least one of the OT in blocking)- then have an emergency valve check-down.
In short, the big picture is not always what we as fans see when Flowers gets beat. Sometimes there are other factors in play that are not obvious. I firmly believe that the Giants dedication to a much improved run game will pay off in a big way for Flowers, and probably his line mates as well.
If the Giants run the ball effectively and Eli becomes a better passer for it (along with his ball fake skills slowing the outside rush), people will be praising Flowers and the OL for a "vast improvement." However, the praise will likely vastly overstate the OL performance, when a philosophy change to make running the ball a primary focus and bringing in the personnel to improve the run game would be the primary reason for the improvement. Sure, Flowers technique could use improvement- as well as his decision making- but all young OL learn that the hard way.