Giants banking their 2017 season on Ereck Flowers?

left or right He needs to be moved to guard, and if the Giants can see that, and it's as plain as the nose on their face, then the O line will greatly improve. Competition between Pugh, Fluker, and whatever T they draft in the first round will make a much, much, better O line. I dont care how young Flowers is, or how high they drafted him, they can't be playing that quicksand-standing motherf#!*er in 17 because they hope he can play T someday. Someday aint this season, and they need to play the guy who can best protect Eli this season. Period.
ZERO faith in Flower Boy.

Guard, especially LG, is just as much a footwork and technique role in the Giants offense as anything, and technique is where he's weakest. Are we just assuming guard would be an easier position to play because it's not as glamorous a position as LT?

In comment 13402161 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Guard, especially LG, is just as much a footwork and technique role in the Giants offense as anything, and technique is where he's weakest. Are we just assuming guard would be an easier position to play because it's not as glamorous a position as LT?

It is MUCH harder to play left tackle than it is to play guard. That is why they pay them a lot more money. I dont get why people think Flowers is going to magically transform into a competent tackle in 2017. From what I have seen, he does his best work moving forward, so why not guard? Don't give me this shit that a guard has to have the feet of a LT. They dont. No one is saying it's easy to play guard, but the necessary kick out footwork and , agilty, deciphering bull from speed rush, from dip and rip from spin moves, the way a LT has to, is totally different for a guard. Flowers was absolutely atrocious trying to protect Eli from guys like James Harrison and Nick Perry. You want more of that? Or do you think last season was just an "off" season, or a blip on the radar, or an anomaly in this 2 year pro's career, who had major technique question marks coming out of college? What I dont understand is how Giants fans are willing to roll the dice that this guy gets it. He was absolutely horrible last year. Tell me otherwise.

tackles block the fastest, most athletic players on the D line. They are called pass rushers for a reason. DTs can be great pass rushers, but there aren't that many in the league.

they should want to move him to guard so they can salvage his career. Worst starting T I can remember starting for the Giants. Worse than Newhouse last year.

In comment 13401594 B in ALB said:

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push my chips to the middle of the table and say EF has a really good season and we end up happy with his play.

B, iirc, you said Flower's major flaws were being bent at the waist and keeping his hands to low to deliver an effective punch.

Sounds like he needs to keep his ass lower with hands chest high, correct?

Also, foot speed is not an issue.

Academy?

In comment 13401570 UConn4523 said:

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because I don't see Reese giving away a 1st rounder. I fail to see why Cleveland would want anything less.

I think if they are creative it can be done:

Like our 1st and our 4th round picks for Thomas and Cleveland's 2nd round pick.

I see the Browns doing Thomas the favor of having the chance to play for a ring before he hangs them up.

WIN-WIN

while outdated the draft chart shows only a 200-250 point difference (depending on which Cleveland 2nd round pick we would get back) which still means Joe Thomas would be worth a high 3rd rounder.

If we were to send a 1 and a 4 it would likely be straight up for Thomas or maybe we'd get a 6th rounder out of the deal.

is decent, you could maybe get by with an average left tackle.

I've mentioned Dave Diehl a couple of times as a guy without, I think, a lot of athleticism or great footwork. He was a Parcell's "lunch pail" lineman who showed up, worked hard and played hard and usually kept himself between the pass rusher and his QB.

Such a player would not be very expensive because he would be on the wrong side of 30 without a resume full of Pro Bowl selections. He could hold down the fort until a rookie was able to take over.

I'm thinking a little about Kiwika Mitchell here. Different situation, but some similarities. A free agent not in much demand, Jerry signed him I think last minute when Torbor went down. Contract one year one million.

For that he started all 16 games, 3.5 sacks and a pick 6.
In the playoffs he had two more sacks and returned a fumble for a TD.

Maybe Jerry could find a rent-a-player for a year for left tackle.

In comment 13402163 Glover said:

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In comment 13402161 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: Guard, especially LG, is just as much a footwork and technique role in the Giants offense as anything, and technique is where he's weakest. Are we just assuming guard would be an easier position to play because it's not as glamorous a position as LT? It is MUCH harder to play left tackle than it is to play guard. That is why they pay them a lot more money. I dont get why people think Flowers is going to magically transform into a competent tackle in 2017. From what I have seen, he does his best work moving forward, so why not guard? Don't give me this shit that a guard has to have the feet of a LT. They dont. No one is saying it's easy to play guard, but the necessary kick out footwork and , agilty, deciphering bull from speed rush, from dip and rip from spin moves, the way a LT has to, is totally different for a guard. Flowers was absolutely atrocious trying to protect Eli from guys like James Harrison and Nick Perry. You want more of that? Or do you think last season was just an "off" season, or a blip on the radar, or an anomaly in this 2 year pro's career, who had major technique question marks coming out of college? What I dont understand is how Giants fans are willing to roll the dice that this guy gets it. He was absolutely horrible last year. Tell me otherwise.

Nobody is arguing he's going to magically transform or that he was good last year. Players can improve with time and work. Landon Collins turned out pretty well for a player the lunatics on here declared was a lost cause after one year. If your argument to move him to a different position is because of matchups, pass rushers all over the league move around and play matchups. When flowers was stonewalling Greg Hardy years ago, they flipped Hardy to the other side of the line in the same game, for example.

Also, Nick Perry had 11 sacks last year and James Harrison has been an accomplished high level pass rusher for 10 years. They aren't bums Flowers should be ashamed to have lost matchups to. It's a weird thing to argue.

If Flowers is the starting LT on opening day, Manning won't be comfortable and he won't play well. I don't care how many skill position players they add. It's all mental now with Manning. He'll always be peeking that way and will lose his effectiveness. He has no interest in taking another one of those Chris Baker type hits. He's going to look out for himself which means he'll be constantly peeking left. Not a good situation.

Yep, I agree 100%!

The Giants knew exactly what they were getting with Flowers when they drafted him 9th overall in the 2015 Draft. A young, unpolished, extremely raw, and technically-flawed player with massive long-term upside potential. Yet, we continue to keep hearing ALL the NFL Armchair GM's out there chomping at the bit to replace Flowers after only 2 years in the NFL.

Thank God MOST of you out don't have the ability to control or manipulate an NFL roster!

This is a big year for Flowers, but I'm confident he will turn the corner and have a strong season for the Giants in 2017.

Teams just don't give up on draft picks, especially 1st rounders, after only two years in the league. We knew there were going to be some lumps and growing pains. Let's give this kid a chance...

over Flowers is based on his bad plays being REALLY bad last year. When he blew a block, it tended to be very obvious and result in a totally blown up play. That's the thing with the OL though - consistency is key, even if you beat your guy majority of the time, it only takes 1-2 big plays to turn that to a terrible game overall. He did play solid a lot of the time last year, but his mistakes were very obvious and often killers.

He's still very young as many pointed out, has all the physical tools, and can hopefully progress some in year 3. If he has been resistant to coaching in the past, I'd hope his 1st 2 NFL years should teach him to listen now. Guys can get by w/bad technique in college, but it gets exposed in the pros. If he can get coached up and dedicate himself to improving, he can make himself a lot of money and carve out a career. If not, he may be out of the league in another few years.

The OL market this year showed how many teams are desperate for help, especially at OT. Guys with track records no better than Flowers cashed in big time (Joekle, etc). It's not easy to find these guys, and teams will take chance on failed prospects from other teams hoping the work out. We don't need him to be Orlando Pace, just a solid year at LT should be enough to let this O really be good...

Amazing how OL are mostly afterthoughts during a game. What I mean by that is, hardly anyone watches an NFL game on TV and focuses on watching the play of the offensive line. But, when an offensive lineman misses that one block during a game, they never hear the end of it.

Flowers turns 23 next month and has all the size, speed, athleticism, and football IQ that the Giants look for when drafting players.

Let's hope he turns the corner this year. And, I firmly believe he will.

In comment 13401523 djm said:

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he's had his problems but it seems there's a bit too much scrutiny and hate being heaped on him in my view. The Giants had the worst blocking TEs in the NFl last year and probably the worst blocking WRs in the NFL last year and yet all we hear is Flowers needs to be replaced. He's young. He's likely going to get one more year to improve at LT. Maybe the Giants draft a tackle early to push him, maybe they don't or can't but people act like there's absolutely no hope at all with Flowers and he was the sole reason why the offense struggled. Not to mention, we just won 11 games with Flowers struggling. This talk that the Giants can't win with him is not true. They just did. Yes they need to see improvement but there's going to be improvement based on the massive upgrade to TE and WR, and we haven't even conducted the draft yet. Not blasting the OP. Just this constant barrage of fear towards the LT spot. I know LT is a vital position but you can't have all pros at every spot. Some positions will struggle. Some guys also do in fact improve. You wouldn't know it if you listened to the masses.

I think Cruz's horrible efforts in the blocking game were one of the major factors in him being released.

In comment 13401967 chopperhatch said:

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Lol. I dont look at Flowers being as much of a problem as many of you do. Yes hes a grabber....all young LTs that start from day one not named Ogden, Pace, or Munoz are. Yes, he has got beaten because of bad feet..,.that can be taught to be corrected. What you cant teach is his size, athleticism and propensity towards violence. As many others have said: hes 22! Most rookies are his age and he has two years under his belt. You can make the argument that he was a bit of a reach. But you cant deny his physical tools and his potential to dominate his side of the line. You dont give up on that after two years.

lol sorry I ramble sometimes.

OK fine I ramble all the time. I feel sorry for my wife.

In comment 13402166 Glover said:

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they should want to move him to guard so they can salvage his career. Worst starting T I can remember starting for the Giants. Worse than Newhouse last year.

So you are absolutely certain that 2 years is enough time for a player? Have you never seen a player develop in year 3?

It's one thing to think a player might never develop but to say you are certain? Even when the team has said they still believe in the guy. But you're certain.

Either you have a short memory or you haven't been watching the NFL longer than 2 years. Some players do need 2-3 years. Plenty of players actually.

Last year the Giants passed on 61.61% of their offensive snaps- meaning that they ran the ball on only 38.39% of their snaps.

While it is true that the McAdoo offense last year was primarily designed on quick passes, somewhat based on the Green Bay offense, that is not the whole story.

The problem was that when the Giants did run the ball, they averaged 3.6 Yards per carry- good for 29th in the league- with only the Bucs, Rams and Vikings (who lost Peterson for most of the season) being worse.

In short, the Giants did not run the ball because they COULD NOT run the ball. In turn, defenses had no reason not to bring the house on every play- because it was going to be a rare thing for the Giants RB to DO something with the ball, so there was no real need to stay honest on defense.

The Giants focus on the off-season has been all about improving their run game- adding a solid blocking WR, a good mobile TE/FB who can block and a big OL who at least has a track record in prior years of being a good run blocker.

IMO, the Giants with Eli at QB probably never get below a 55% pass play percentage- with the number likely closer to 60% of all plays being pass plays. However, context matters- so if the Giants run plays at league average to a little above (4.3 to 4.5 yards per rush), that has a impact on the passing game as well.

If teams must respect the run, then teams can no longer attack upfield relentlessly- like what happened last year. Instead, you need to have LB maintain run lanes, ends and rush LB must contain and read run- which costs them a second of rush time, and at least one S will have run read responsibilities.

In turn, that means fewer bodies for the OL to block and a critical second gained while the defender reads run or pass. It also give Eli that extra second or two to find an open receiver. By having a legit blocking TE/FB, you also get to chip at least one defender (helping at least one of the OT in blocking)- then have an emergency valve check-down.

In short, the big picture is not always what we as fans see when Flowers gets beat. Sometimes there are other factors in play that are not obvious. I firmly believe that the Giants dedication to a much improved run game will pay off in a big way for Flowers, and probably his line mates as well.

If the Giants run the ball effectively and Eli becomes a better passer for it (along with his ball fake skills slowing the outside rush), people will be praising Flowers and the OL for a "vast improvement." However, the praise will likely vastly overstate the OL performance, when a philosophy change to make running the ball a primary focus and bringing in the personnel to improve the run game would be the primary reason for the improvement. Sure, Flowers technique could use improvement- as well as his decision making- but all young OL learn that the hard way.

Only addition we've been able to make is Fluker, too, who is far from some stud. I'm expecting.hoping for a minor improvement in performance next year for the OLine, but not some big improvement.

Toomer's career would have been over before it started, had it been up to them. That all pro LT in Dallas? He was struggling out the gate, and took a couple years as well.