you don't return punts anymore we dock you pay. Seems fair to me. Expensive gunner but he is a good blocker and backup WR god forbid we lose anyone of our main guys for a length of time.
and subpar return man. Should have got him down ton the vet minimum or just cut him and take the dead money hit this year and totally off the books by next year.
the horrible drafts and horrible late round selections have brought us.. A gunner and a returner should be a late round cheap draft pick and not someone getting paid 4M.. Between him Ellison and SV we have 12 Million going to positions which should be getting 1M each at most..
He's not a returner anymore and Roger Lewis can fill his role as a gunner. I guess I can see keeping him if they're not right up against the cap or if it's not preventing them from signing someone else, but I really don't think he's an essential or necessary part of the team.
I think Giants were desperate to make the playoffs two years ago. The jobs of Reese, TC and Ross were all potentially on the line. Having strong ST is a way to "steal" one or two victories. So they signed Harris to a big deal for a ST guy.
The irony is that that the Giants ST are not particularly good, given how much "emphasis" they supposedly put on them.
I think Giants were desperate to make the playoffs two years ago. The jobs of Reese, TC and Ross were all potentially on the line. Having strong ST is a way to "steal" one or two victories. So they signed Harris to a big deal for a ST guy.
The irony is that that the Giants ST are not particularly good, given how much "emphasis" they supposedly put on them.
Ehh, just because something doesn't go as planned doesn't mean it was short sighted. Should they not try to sure up an important aspect of the team? Its the same thing with the OL, they are trying, it just hasn't gone as planned for various reasons.
He was expensive, but at the time he was one of the best on the market. You win some you lose some.
why cut him? he is a very good special teamer and can still return kicks/punts. plus he isnt a horrible pass catcher either...people forget he had some good moments in 15 and last year caught a TD against the browns. i happen to like harris
and subpar return man. Should have got him down ton the vet minimum or just cut him and take the dead money hit this year and totally off the books by next year.
Was a good returner his first season, won us a game with a punt return. Maybe it was just injuries last year. We'll see.
and he played hurt last year - a little perspective is in order
That's fair, at least the injury part. I think pro bowl special teasers are often chosen similarly to linemen. But injury doesn't explain some of the awful decisions he made as a returner last year.
I have to admit, I didn't know his dead cap number as 2.4 mill. I really think that has a lot to do with why he wasn't cut but that's just opinion, I could easily be wrong.
and subpar return man. Should have got him down ton the vet minimum or just cut him and take the dead money hit this year and totally off the books by next year.
I'm.going to guess that the Giants have a budget in mind for offense, defense AND ST and that they are allocating money and following the plan.
Reese and co. DO get paid to think about this stuff after all.
The number of times he downed the ball inside the 5
an unlikely to be reached stat that won't count against this year's cap:
Quote:
ESPN also reported that Harris can earn a $600,000 bonus if he averages 10-plus yards per punt return next season. Harris has averaged 9.8 yards per punt return in his career. He averaged 5.9 yards per return last season.
Harris as a player and are forgetting his potential value to this team. Granted he may not have contributed too much last year but as others have alluded to you he could have been playing with a pretty significant injury. Plus he was behind Cruz on the wide receiver depth chart. Whereas the year before he was showing signs of being a pretty good contributor as a third or fourth wide receiver. Combine that with his actual excellent special teams coverage and his normally reliable hands in Fielding punts and I could see a reason pay roughly 2 million dollars a year to keep a guy like that on the roster. Versatility is a very price access in the Giants organization
RE: This kind of scares me, although it might be created as
an unlikely to be reached stat that won't count against this year's cap:
Quote:
ESPN also reported that Harris can earn a $600,000 bonus if he averages 10-plus yards per punt return next season. Harris has averaged 9.8 yards per punt return in his career. He averaged 5.9 yards per return last season.
Why does it scare you, I want him to hit hat escalator...$600k won't stop us from landing anyone we want.
Pro Bowl player, tough as nails (remember the Rams game)?
I didn't think he would return from that hit. He came back and played later in the game. Just a Football player. We need guys like him on this team. even if overpaid.
TD return against his old team the DALLAS COWBOYS his first year here, was worth the contract..well almost!
Before Harris was signed ? Not that they are elite now but the coverage teams are way better and I doubt it's Quinn's coaching. Plus I agree with gidie above, I'll bet Harris was hurt last year and that's why his returns fell short. Harris adds toughness to this team
RE: RE: This kind of scares me, although it might be created as
an unlikely to be reached stat that won't count against this year's cap:
Quote:
ESPN also reported that Harris can earn a $600,000 bonus if he averages 10-plus yards per punt return next season. Harris has averaged 9.8 yards per punt return in his career. He averaged 5.9 yards per return last season.
Why does it scare you, I want him to hit hat escalator...$600k won't stop us from landing anyone we want.
It's the same hand-wringing mentality that occurred last season when DRC hit the incentive for interceptions that earned him an additional $500k. There were posters here that did not want him to get the interception only to save Mara some change.
and increases his chances of sticking now. Not sure but I think we would have only saved about ~$1M cutting him, so now a cut would only net $500K - definitely not something they would need to do for $. If he doesn't make it, it's because they found a better option on STs.
We've seen a few mainly ST type adds, let's hope we see the actual STs on the field pick up some.
I'm not worried about paying him the money (what do I care, that amount would never hurt us). I'm concerned that the bonus provisions might encourage him to run back balls that he should fair catch, with resultant fumbles and/or our offense starting at the 5 yard line, like happened too often last year. He made some really bad choices in trying to run back some punts and KOs.
RE: The number of times he downed the ball inside the 5
is worth his salary. He also knows the playbook and has played some wr.
+1 the amount of times he did that last year (and did 15) is far from easily replaceable like i've been reading for days. that image of him is burnt in my brain because it happened so many times.
you don't cut a contributor unless you're desperate for the money, and they're not there's no one to spend it on. and i think there's still $ there for hank on a 1 year deal. cutting thomas would come far before harris. not to mention it doesn't make sense because of the dead space as has been mentioned, you're only clearing $1.4m with $2.4m dead money ($3.8 cap hit), and you still got to replace him
I'm not worried about paying him the money (what do I care, that amount would never hurt us). I'm concerned that the bonus provisions might encourage him to run back balls that he should fair catch, with resultant fumbles and/or our offense starting at the 5 yard line, like happened too often last year. He made some really bad choices in trying to run back some punts and KOs.
That is a valid concern especially in the scenario you outlined above. Let just hope that our defense forces 3 and outs. And Harris has so many punts returns that he won't be making the borderline business decisions that will place our offense in bad field position near the goal line.
C'mon - NOBODY here is trying to save John Mara money
The only reason anyone would want to see a player not meet an incentive is the salary cap or they dislike the guy for whatever reason. There isn't a single poster here who has intimated that John Mara could stand to save a few bucks.
who appreciate having Harris on this team. First, I'm not sure he isn't the 4th best WR on this team. Specials should speak for themselves. Even if Harris had an off year, a big part of what he does (kickoffs) has pretty much been taken out of the game. I think some of the mistakes come from desperately wanting to make an impact in the return game when opportunities are so scarce. Still, the man is a pro and tough as nails. If he's healthy you want that kind of speed and toughness on the roster.
who appreciate having Harris on this team. First, I'm not sure he isn't the 4th best WR on this team. Specials should speak for themselves. Even if Harris had an off year, a big part of what he does (kickoffs) has pretty much been taken out of the game. I think some of the mistakes come from desperately wanting to make an impact in the return game when opportunities are so scarce. Still, the man is a pro and tough as nails. If he's healthy you want that kind of speed and toughness on the roster.
from last year than he's doing something right. Not really worried about him "trying" to get his incentive and possibly fumbling. These guys are paid to execute and Harris is a professional and a hard worker, I highly doubt getting his bonus will effect his judgement. It's not like he's compiling yards, it's an average.
from last year than he's doing something right. Not really worried about him "trying" to get his incentive and possibly fumbling. These guys are paid to execute and Harris is a professional and a hard worker, I highly doubt getting his bonus will effect his judgement. It's not like he's compiling yards, it's an average.
Exactly. This structure is favorable to the Giants. Even if it were a concern, I think the reward outweighs the risk.
I'm not worried about paying him the money (what do I care, that amount would never hurt us). I'm concerned that the bonus provisions might encourage him to run back balls that he should fair catch, with resultant fumbles and/or our offense starting at the 5 yard line, like happened too often last year. He made some really bad choices in trying to run back some punts and KOs.
That is a valid concern especially in the scenario you outlined above. Let just hope that our defense forces 3 and outs. And Harris has so many punts returns that he won't be making the borderline business decisions that will place our offense in bad field position near the goal line.
How do additional punt return opportunities mitigate the risk of Harris making poor return decisions? His bonus isn't tied to aggregate return yardage.
And guarantees matter not the total reported total values of contract matter
Cutting him likely saves nonreal dollars in the long run. Healthy he's valuable for 3-4 positions. He's here this year. Next year he's likely gone. Move on.
Me I'm still trying to figure out why the fuck JT Thomas is on the team
I'm not worried about paying him the money (what do I care, that amount would never hurt us). I'm concerned that the bonus provisions might encourage him to run back balls that he should fair catch, with resultant fumbles and/or our offense starting at the 5 yard line, like happened too often last year. He made some really bad choices in trying to run back some punts and KOs.
That is a valid concern especially in the scenario you outlined above. Let just hope that our defense forces 3 and outs. And Harris has so many punts returns that he won't be making the borderline business decisions that will place our offense in bad field position near the goal line.
How do additional punt return opportunities mitigate the risk of Harris making poor return decisions? His bonus isn't tied to aggregate return yardage.
The bonus is tied to an average. The more returns factored into the average lessens the impact of a single return. Take for example, Harris is sitting on a 9.9 average out of 10 returns for the season (I know a very simplistic example). He enters the final game needing to get over the 10 yard average to trigger the bonus. If the opportunity presents itself, he might decide to return a punt instead of letting it bounce into the endzone for a touchback. Hence a business decision. Now, to stick with the simplistic example, if he is sitting on a 9.9 average with 100 returns, one more return isn't likely going to affect the average. In which case, he would likely let the ball bounce into the endzone.
a punt that his only goal is his bonus. That's a very hollow argument. Teams wouldn't put performance escalators in place as often as they do if they felt the players would start jeopardizing performance for personal gain.
I'd say its more likely that he tries to make smart football decisions because that $600k bonus will mean a lot less if he's cut and can't recoup it with a future salary in his next contract. He's set to make over $3 million next year and if he's cut for bad judgement then at 30 years old, what's the likelihood he makes up that $2.4 million difference? I'd say very slim.
a punt that his only goal is his bonus. That's a very hollow argument. Teams wouldn't put performance escalators in place as often as they do if they felt the players would start jeopardizing performance for personal gain.
I'd say its more likely that he tries to make smart football decisions because that $600k bonus will mean a lot less if he's cut and can't recoup it with a future salary in his next contract. He's set to make over $3 million next year and if he's cut for bad judgement then at 30 years old, what's the likelihood he makes up that $2.4 million difference? I'd say very slim.
funny you mention bad judgement. the biggest problem with him last year was his horrid judgement on kickoffs, routinely taking them out of the end zone and not making close to the 25 yd line he could get by taking a knee.
Did he make poor decisions? Probably, and maybe he was trying help a woeful offense with better field position, which may have influenced some of those decisions...
I criticized the Giants for not having a backup plan for Cruz....Harris played well the year before as a receiver, yet, only had one freakin' target last season.....for a td, no less...
Is he the best punt returner on the Giants? No, OBj is.....but I get leery of someone taking a shot at him.....
I think Harris is going to have a better season....and contrary to what BBI thinks, guys who return punts/kickoffs for tds, do not grow on trees......there were a lot of punts returned by Harris last season, where the ST's blocking was abysmal....it's not all on just Harris, guys....
RE: RE: you are assuming that every time he fields
a punt that his only goal is his bonus. That's a very hollow argument. Teams wouldn't put performance escalators in place as often as they do if they felt the players would start jeopardizing performance for personal gain.
I'd say its more likely that he tries to make smart football decisions because that $600k bonus will mean a lot less if he's cut and can't recoup it with a future salary in his next contract. He's set to make over $3 million next year and if he's cut for bad judgement then at 30 years old, what's the likelihood he makes up that $2.4 million difference? I'd say very slim.
funny you mention bad judgement. the biggest problem with him last year was his horrid judgement on kickoffs, routinely taking them out of the end zone and not making close to the 25 yd line he could get by taking a knee.
If that's the case I will leave it to the Giants to address, we have no idea what the coaches are telling him to do. And that doesn't speak to his Punt YPR escalator anyway.
Did he make poor decisions? Probably, and maybe he was trying help a woeful offense with better field position, which may have influenced some of those decisions...
I criticized the Giants for not having a backup plan for Cruz....Harris played well the year before as a receiver, yet, only had one freakin' target last season.....for a td, no less...
Is he the best punt returner on the Giants? No, OBj is.....but I get leery of someone taking a shot at him.....
I think Harris is going to have a better season....and contrary to what BBI thinks, guys who return punts/kickoffs for tds, do not grow on trees......there were a lot of punts returned by Harris last season, where the ST's blocking was abysmal....it's not all on just Harris, guys....
talking about Kickoff returns, not punts. His judgement was atrocious. It was so bad they even dared to put Fumbling Bobby Rainey back there.
Link - ( New Window )
The irony is that that the Giants ST are not particularly good, given how much "emphasis" they supposedly put on them.
The irony is that that the Giants ST are not particularly good, given how much "emphasis" they supposedly put on them.
Ehh, just because something doesn't go as planned doesn't mean it was short sighted. Should they not try to sure up an important aspect of the team? Its the same thing with the OL, they are trying, it just hasn't gone as planned for various reasons.
He was expensive, but at the time he was one of the best on the market. You win some you lose some.
There's something you don't hear often...lol
Was a good returner his first season, won us a game with a punt return. Maybe it was just injuries last year. We'll see.
That's fair, at least the injury part. I think pro bowl special teasers are often chosen similarly to linemen. But injury doesn't explain some of the awful decisions he made as a returner last year.
I have to admit, I didn't know his dead cap number as 2.4 mill. I really think that has a lot to do with why he wasn't cut but that's just opinion, I could easily be wrong.
I'm.going to guess that the Giants have a budget in mind for offense, defense AND ST and that they are allocating money and following the plan.
Reese and co. DO get paid to think about this stuff after all.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
ESPN also reported that Harris can earn a $600,000 bonus if he averages 10-plus yards per punt return next season. Harris has averaged 9.8 yards per punt return in his career. He averaged 5.9 yards per return last season.
Why does it scare you, I want him to hit hat escalator...$600k won't stop us from landing anyone we want.
I didn't think he would return from that hit. He came back and played later in the game. Just a Football player. We need guys like him on this team. even if overpaid.
TD return against his old team the DALLAS COWBOYS his first year here, was worth the contract..well almost!
This crowd is brutal damn
Quote:
an unlikely to be reached stat that won't count against this year's cap:
Quote:
ESPN also reported that Harris can earn a $600,000 bonus if he averages 10-plus yards per punt return next season. Harris has averaged 9.8 yards per punt return in his career. He averaged 5.9 yards per return last season.
Why does it scare you, I want him to hit hat escalator...$600k won't stop us from landing anyone we want.
It's the same hand-wringing mentality that occurred last season when DRC hit the incentive for interceptions that earned him an additional $500k. There were posters here that did not want him to get the interception only to save Mara some change.
We've seen a few mainly ST type adds, let's hope we see the actual STs on the field pick up some.
+1 the amount of times he did that last year (and did 15) is far from easily replaceable like i've been reading for days. that image of him is burnt in my brain because it happened so many times.
you don't cut a contributor unless you're desperate for the money, and they're not there's no one to spend it on. and i think there's still $ there for hank on a 1 year deal. cutting thomas would come far before harris. not to mention it doesn't make sense because of the dead space as has been mentioned, you're only clearing $1.4m with $2.4m dead money ($3.8 cap hit), and you still got to replace him
That is a valid concern especially in the scenario you outlined above. Let just hope that our defense forces 3 and outs. And Harris has so many punts returns that he won't be making the borderline business decisions that will place our offense in bad field position near the goal line.
Agreed.
Exactly. This structure is favorable to the Giants. Even if it were a concern, I think the reward outweighs the risk.
Quote:
I'm not worried about paying him the money (what do I care, that amount would never hurt us). I'm concerned that the bonus provisions might encourage him to run back balls that he should fair catch, with resultant fumbles and/or our offense starting at the 5 yard line, like happened too often last year. He made some really bad choices in trying to run back some punts and KOs.
That is a valid concern especially in the scenario you outlined above. Let just hope that our defense forces 3 and outs. And Harris has so many punts returns that he won't be making the borderline business decisions that will place our offense in bad field position near the goal line.
How do additional punt return opportunities mitigate the risk of Harris making poor return decisions? His bonus isn't tied to aggregate return yardage.
Cutting him likely saves nonreal dollars in the long run. Healthy he's valuable for 3-4 positions. He's here this year. Next year he's likely gone. Move on.
Me I'm still trying to figure out why the fuck JT Thomas is on the team
Quote:
In comment 13401981 yatqb said:
Quote:
I'm not worried about paying him the money (what do I care, that amount would never hurt us). I'm concerned that the bonus provisions might encourage him to run back balls that he should fair catch, with resultant fumbles and/or our offense starting at the 5 yard line, like happened too often last year. He made some really bad choices in trying to run back some punts and KOs.
That is a valid concern especially in the scenario you outlined above. Let just hope that our defense forces 3 and outs. And Harris has so many punts returns that he won't be making the borderline business decisions that will place our offense in bad field position near the goal line.
How do additional punt return opportunities mitigate the risk of Harris making poor return decisions? His bonus isn't tied to aggregate return yardage.
The bonus is tied to an average. The more returns factored into the average lessens the impact of a single return. Take for example, Harris is sitting on a 9.9 average out of 10 returns for the season (I know a very simplistic example). He enters the final game needing to get over the 10 yard average to trigger the bonus. If the opportunity presents itself, he might decide to return a punt instead of letting it bounce into the endzone for a touchback. Hence a business decision. Now, to stick with the simplistic example, if he is sitting on a 9.9 average with 100 returns, one more return isn't likely going to affect the average. In which case, he would likely let the ball bounce into the endzone.
I'd say its more likely that he tries to make smart football decisions because that $600k bonus will mean a lot less if he's cut and can't recoup it with a future salary in his next contract. He's set to make over $3 million next year and if he's cut for bad judgement then at 30 years old, what's the likelihood he makes up that $2.4 million difference? I'd say very slim.
On a 150M payroll, that is penny-pinching. Goliath taking money away because he can. Giants should be ashamed.
I'd say its more likely that he tries to make smart football decisions because that $600k bonus will mean a lot less if he's cut and can't recoup it with a future salary in his next contract. He's set to make over $3 million next year and if he's cut for bad judgement then at 30 years old, what's the likelihood he makes up that $2.4 million difference? I'd say very slim.
funny you mention bad judgement. the biggest problem with him last year was his horrid judgement on kickoffs, routinely taking them out of the end zone and not making close to the 25 yd line he could get by taking a knee.
Did he make poor decisions? Probably, and maybe he was trying help a woeful offense with better field position, which may have influenced some of those decisions...
I criticized the Giants for not having a backup plan for Cruz....Harris played well the year before as a receiver, yet, only had one freakin' target last season.....for a td, no less...
Is he the best punt returner on the Giants? No, OBj is.....but I get leery of someone taking a shot at him.....
I think Harris is going to have a better season....and contrary to what BBI thinks, guys who return punts/kickoffs for tds, do not grow on trees......there were a lot of punts returned by Harris last season, where the ST's blocking was abysmal....it's not all on just Harris, guys....
Quote:
a punt that his only goal is his bonus. That's a very hollow argument. Teams wouldn't put performance escalators in place as often as they do if they felt the players would start jeopardizing performance for personal gain.
I'd say its more likely that he tries to make smart football decisions because that $600k bonus will mean a lot less if he's cut and can't recoup it with a future salary in his next contract. He's set to make over $3 million next year and if he's cut for bad judgement then at 30 years old, what's the likelihood he makes up that $2.4 million difference? I'd say very slim.
funny you mention bad judgement. the biggest problem with him last year was his horrid judgement on kickoffs, routinely taking them out of the end zone and not making close to the 25 yd line he could get by taking a knee.
If that's the case I will leave it to the Giants to address, we have no idea what the coaches are telling him to do. And that doesn't speak to his Punt YPR escalator anyway.
Did he make poor decisions? Probably, and maybe he was trying help a woeful offense with better field position, which may have influenced some of those decisions...
I criticized the Giants for not having a backup plan for Cruz....Harris played well the year before as a receiver, yet, only had one freakin' target last season.....for a td, no less...
Is he the best punt returner on the Giants? No, OBj is.....but I get leery of someone taking a shot at him.....
I think Harris is going to have a better season....and contrary to what BBI thinks, guys who return punts/kickoffs for tds, do not grow on trees......there were a lot of punts returned by Harris last season, where the ST's blocking was abysmal....it's not all on just Harris, guys....
talking about Kickoff returns, not punts. His judgement was atrocious. It was so bad they even dared to put Fumbling Bobby Rainey back there.
Quote:
.
There's something you don't hear often...lol
LOL, yeah really. Why bother for 500K?