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NFT: Knicks talk: what could the Knicks possibly get for Melo?

manh george : 3/21/2017 8:24 pm
As all Knicks fans probably know, there is now considerable discussion that Melo will waive his no-trade and leave after this season. Two benefits to the Knicks are obvious: cap room, and the opportunity to pursue a an athletic, quick small forward along with a pass-first point guard, between free agency with cash to spend, and the draft.

The question I have is simple: do the Knicks actually get anything back for Melo? What might that be? Draft pick? Rotation player? What?
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RE: If we are stuck with having to  
nygiants16 : 3/22/2017 10:34 am : link
In comment 13402362 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
choose between Fultz, ball and Jackson you will hear no such complaint out of me.


yeah i know it is a good problem to have...

unless the knicks feel he is head and shoulders above the other 2 i would have no problem them passing on ball
I wouldn't pass on Ball for Jackson  
Greg from LI : 3/22/2017 10:39 am : link
Don't give a shit about his father. Let him flap his gums all he wants - Ball is going to be a helluva point guard.
LA  
TyreeHelmet : 3/22/2017 10:50 am : link
It seems like its LA or bust for Carmelo. Clippers package would be the same one offered- Crawford/ Rivers etc. The Lakers would have to be a salary dump of Deng/ Mozgov or some combo of one of them with an asset.

Unless they can an unprotected 1st from either of them, I would prefer they just buy him out in the off-season. I think his trade value is very low, but his basketball value could be valuable to the right team. Either way its time to end it.

Also, Ball's father wouldn't bother me one bit.
RE: I wouldn't pass on Ball for Jackson  
DanMetroMan : 3/22/2017 10:51 am : link
In comment 13402380 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Don't give a shit about his father. Let him flap his gums all he wants - Ball is going to be a helluva point guard.


I love Jackson (not that I don't like Ball) but totally agree on the father.
I'd take a shitty contract with a good asset from LAL  
Deej : 3/22/2017 10:53 am : link
We're rebuilding. what do we need capspace for? Im not interested in Rivers. I'd rather keep Melo, make him miserable, and force him to open up his trade list. Or treat him like anyone else. No defense, no passing, no playing.
I knew it would be an unpopular opinion  
nygiants16 : 3/22/2017 10:53 am : link
..
I don't know, to me Jackson seems like a top-notch athlete  
Greg from LI : 3/22/2017 10:54 am : link
who really doesn't have any plus NBA skills at this point. Now, he might develop some, and if he does he could really by something. Otherwise, I think he's a very good energy guy who will play good defense and occasionally post a big offensive game. Good pick, not a great pick.
RE: I don't know, to me Jackson seems like a top-notch athlete  
TyreeHelmet : 3/22/2017 11:01 am : link
In comment 13402421 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
who really doesn't have any plus NBA skills at this point. Now, he might develop some, and if he does he could really by something. Otherwise, I think he's a very good energy guy who will play good defense and occasionally post a big offensive game. Good pick, not a great pick.


https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/843631222098219008

Impressive scoring in that clip. Everything I have seen from Jackson has been incredibly impressive. In a "normal" year, he would be a consensus number 1 pick. I would love him on the Knicks but honestly I just want a good guard- especially point guard. As a fan, I have been starved for guard play from the Knicks. Not the smartest way to build a team, just fan thinking.
Honestly, if they're top 5, I don't think they could really disappoint  
Greg from LI : 3/22/2017 11:04 am : link
me. I'm not as enthused about Jackson as the others, but at worst I think he has a pretty high floor.
I  
DanMetroMan : 3/22/2017 11:10 am : link
think Jackson's outcome varies from "very good" to elite superstar in the Tmac mold. Huge fan. He's easily my 3rd best prospect and my mind would not be blown if he ends up the best player.
RE: RE: I don't know, to me Jackson seems like a top-notch athlete  
Deej : 3/22/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13402428 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13402421 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


who really doesn't have any plus NBA skills at this point. Now, he might develop some, and if he does he could really by something. Otherwise, I think he's a very good energy guy who will play good defense and occasionally post a big offensive game. Good pick, not a great pick.



https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/843631222098219008

Impressive scoring in that clip. Everything I have seen from Jackson has been incredibly impressive. In a "normal" year, he would be a consensus number 1 pick. I would love him on the Knicks but honestly I just want a good guard- especially point guard. As a fan, I have been starved for guard play from the Knicks. Not the smartest way to build a team, just fan thinking.


I like Jackson but I dont think he'd be a consensus #1 in a "normal year". Looking back 15 drafts, he def doesnt get taken over Simmons, KAT, Davis, Wall, Griffin, Rose, Oden, Doward, Lebron, Yao -- i.e. at least 10 of the last 15 #1s.

I dont think the tippy top of this draft is special although Im warmed to Fultz at least being a Wall-level prospect. The specialness of this draft as far as I can tell is where the Knicks pick -- we're likely at 5-6-7 to get a player who would go 2-3 in most drafts. And thereafter -- getting a Fox or Monk as you creep up on #10 overall is crazy good value.
RE: I don't know, to me Jackson seems like a top-notch athlete  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 11:12 am : link
In comment 13402421 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
who really doesn't have any plus NBA skills at this point. Now, he might develop some, and if he does he could really by something. Otherwise, I think he's a very good energy guy who will play good defense and occasionally post a big offensive game. Good pick, not a great pick.


He is a very advanced handle for a 6'8" guy. He also isn't as bad of a shooter as people were claiming when he came in. Shooting a decent percentage from 3 and can hit pull up Js. Probably the best defensive prospect of the top 7 (maybe the only one that's considered above average at this point).
I don't think he has some crazy start potential but I think he can be an Iggy-type pseudo-PG, 2nd/3rd banana.
I'm  
DanMetroMan : 3/22/2017 11:13 am : link
in the minority view but I'm not yet sold on Fox. Not saying he can't be good. Just think there are a few non-PG's I'd pass on Fox for.
RE: I'm  
EricNY33 : 3/22/2017 11:16 am : link
In comment 13402450 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
in the minority view but I'm not yet sold on Fox. Not saying he can't be good. Just think there are a few non-PG's I'd pass on Fox for.


After the top 4 guys (Ball, Fultz, Jackson, Tatum) I am taking Fox.
I think Jackson has potential to be a massive  
Deej : 3/22/2017 11:17 am : link
disruptor defensively. A game changer type.
I'd easily take smith over fox  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 11:19 am : link
Can't really see much debate on that either. Id take Isaac and Markannen over fox, even for the Knicks. After that, it's either French or fox for me. I'd take either over Monk/Bridges I think.
I'd take Isaac over Fox  
Greg from LI : 3/22/2017 11:20 am : link
Gamble on greatness. Isaac's potential is huge.
RE: RE: I'm  
DanMetroMan : 3/22/2017 11:22 am : link
In comment 13402458 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
In comment 13402450 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


in the minority view but I'm not yet sold on Fox. Not saying he can't be good. Just think there are a few non-PG's I'd pass on Fox for.



After the top 4 guys (Ball, Fultz, Jackson, Tatum) I am taking Fox.


Not me. Not even close. Fox is rail thinwith very little touch on his jumper which doesn't give me much hope in regard to his 3 point shooting (23%!!!) but with that touch I don't think that's ever going to change. Really reminds me of Jennings. I'd go Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Smith, Markkanen, Isaac, then Fox.
RE: I think Jackson has potential to be a massive  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 11:22 am : link
In comment 13402460 Deej said:
Quote:
disruptor defensively. A game changer type.


Obviously not trying to say Jackson is going to become Kawhi, but from scouting reports there are many similar attributes. Jackson probably has a more advanced handle/shot coming out of school. Kawhi Leonard is a special case. I think work ethic wise, there may not be many athletes in the world at his level. But I think Jackson brings a similar intensity, at least on defense.

If I'm drafting Jackson I'm playing him at the point in the next few summer leagues and for stretches in regular season games. I think he really has that good of a handle. He can work out of PnRs. Always finds the open man.
One wild card  
Greg from LI : 3/22/2017 11:22 am : link
I'm not crazy about Markkanen for the Knicks because of lineup issues with KP and Willy. However, I wonder if there's a team below them who really covets Markkanen, and what that might get them in a deal.
RE: I'd easily take smith over fox  
EricNY33 : 3/22/2017 11:24 am : link
In comment 13402462 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Can't really see much debate on that either. Id take Isaac and Markannen over fox, even for the Knicks. After that, it's either French or fox for me. I'd take either over Monk/Bridges I think.


I don't like the red flags on Smith. KNee injury. Attitude concerns. He might be a superior talent but I don't like those things.

I'd be cool with Isaac because his ceiling is really high. I am not a Markkanen fan.
Concern over Smith's knee is fine  
Greg from LI : 3/22/2017 11:26 am : link
The supposed "attitude concerns" are a whole lot about nothing. NC State was a poisonous situation for a bunch of reasons. Smith didn't cause that, nor did he ever do much of anything that could be called an attitude problem.
RE: One wild card  
TyreeHelmet : 3/22/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13402472 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I'm not crazy about Markkanen for the Knicks because of lineup issues with KP and Willy. However, I wonder if there's a team below them who really covets Markkanen, and what that might get them in a deal.


I like Willy's potential but if I'm Phil Jackson, Hernangomez is not factoring into my plans in this draft. Fit with KP is what matters.
RE: RE: RE: I'm  
EricNY33 : 3/22/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13402468 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:




Not me. Not even close. Fox is rail thinwith very little touch on his jumper which doesn't give me much hope in regard to his 3 point shooting (23%!!!) but with that touch I don't think that's ever going to change. Really reminds me of Jennings. I'd go Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Smith, Markkanen, Isaac, then Fox.


The jumper is a legit concern, but you can't seriously talk about Fox' weight when you've been hyping up Isaac at the same time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13402488 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
In comment 13402468 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:






Not me. Not even close. Fox is rail thinwith very little touch on his jumper which doesn't give me much hope in regard to his 3 point shooting (23%!!!) but with that touch I don't think that's ever going to change. Really reminds me of Jennings. I'd go Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Smith, Markkanen, Isaac, then Fox.



The jumper is a legit concern, but you can't seriously talk about Fox' weight when you've been hyping up Isaac at the same time.


Have you watched either of the two play? Fox goes flying when pushed. Can't even finish with contact. Plays like that on defense too. Isaac is a much more physical player. It's like KP vs like Brandon Ingram. KPs physicality makes him much more successful at his current weight than Ingram at the same stage.
Weight isn't even the biggest concern with  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 11:35 am : link
Fox. Neither is shooting. He can't stay in front of his man to save his life.
RE: RE: I might actually root for the Knicks  
Vin R : 3/22/2017 11:36 am : link
In comment 13402355 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13402309 Vin R said:


Quote:


When Melo is no longer there



I can't see you just changing teams that easily....oh wait.


Warriors or Knicks? hmm..
RE: Weight isn't even the biggest concern with  
EricNY33 : 3/22/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13402494 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Fox. Neither is shooting. He can't stay in front of his man to save his life.


Well that's not true either. Makes me think YOU'VE never seen him play.

Quote:
Fox still stands as a fearless defender when he decides to guard the opposing ball-handler rather than working as a free safety. As an on-ball defender, Fox loves to just get into the face of the opposing ball-handler which really prevents them from getting any breathing room.

His ability to stick onto an opponent like velcro is still evident whether the opposing guard is working around an off-ball screen or driving to the paint. While his tenacity is an incredibly fun thing to watch, it’s more impressive to know that he’s able to do this while only averaging 3 fouls per 40 minutes. That average actually stands as one of the lowest among SEC point guards.

Fox’s knack of being an aggressive defender without getting in regular foul trouble has a lot to do with body control and great footwork. Those two traits are evident in the play below as Fox is able to stick to the Louisville cutter from the perimeter to the paint for the opposition gets called for a travel.
Why  
DanMetroMan : 3/22/2017 11:44 am : link
Fox is a scary pick
Link - ( New Window )
I don't see it with Isaac. It's not like he's doing things at 6'10 he  
Jim in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 11:48 am : link
used to do at 6'4, creating and putting the ball on the floor...etc. He has a nice shooting touch, and is a good athlete at 6'10.

Granted I haven't see a lot of FSU games, and when I do he's on the bench more than he's playing thanks to Hamilton's style. I just don't see the dynamic movement skills to get excited about.
RE: Why  
TyreeHelmet : 3/22/2017 11:48 am : link
In comment 13402507 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Fox is a scary pick Link - ( New Window )


Fox scares me as well, especially his reluctance to shoot. I would be fine taking him around 10. Taking him top 5 or around 5 would scare me.
No I haven't read  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 11:49 am : link
a blog written halfway through conference play written on Fox, but I've seen U.K. Get light up by opposing PGs.

Matt Jones of Kentucky sports radio (big time U.K. homer) says he fears for whoever is going to take him in the draft.

He has defensive upside, but U.K. Hasn't but shutting down opposing PGs to say the least.
You can't judge UK players based on what you see on the court, as  
Jim in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 11:53 am : link
strange as it sounds. I'm up and down on Monk, and not sure about Fox. I think Monk has more dribble-drive skills than he's shown thus far. If the top 4 are gone, I'd probably go with Monk.
RE: I don't see it with Isaac. It's not like he's doing things at 6'10 he  
DanMetroMan : 3/22/2017 11:56 am : link
In comment 13402512 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
used to do at 6'4, creating and putting the ball on the floor...etc. He has a nice shooting touch, and is a good athlete at 6'10.

Granted I haven't see a lot of FSU games, and when I do he's on the bench more than he's playing thanks to Hamilton's style. I just don't see the dynamic movement skills to get excited about.


Strongly disagree. Really impressive handle for a guy that height. Runs the court like a gazelle. Granted these are just highlights but it gives you an idea of his skillset. I could see KP/Isaac being a fantastic duo protecting the rim. How often do you see a 6'10 kid block a shot, grab the loose ball and take it up the court on a fast break?
Link - ( New Window )
He's definitely skilled for his height. He's another tweener though.  
Jim in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 12:05 pm : link
He'll never be big enough to be the 4 with his body type, and at the 3 he's probably a 7 on the athletic scale compared to other NBA SF's.

For me he's behind the big 5 and Monk.
Just don't see  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 12:07 pm : link
how a PG who can't shoot 3s thrive in the NBA (exception of wall). It would be insulting to wall to say fox is on that level of passer and athlete (fox is a great athlete, don't get me wrong). Guys like Derrick Rose and elfrid Payton and Rubio are average PGs that are going to get overpaid.

Don't want to worry about future salary at this point, but if you think about the Hawks and Dennis Schroeder, is schroeder really taking you places that say Corey Joseph can't? He's going to be making $25M a year.

I know the Knicks have a PG problem for a while now, but I'm not reaching to take a guy who might become a slightly above average starting PG vs taking Tatum (who could be a danny granger type) or Isaac (who might deservedly earn the "unicorn" label).
RE: He's definitely skilled for his height. He's another tweener though.  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13402550 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
He'll never be big enough to be the 4 with his body type, and at the 3 he's probably a 7 on the athletic scale compared to other NBA SF's.

For me he's behind the big 5 and Monk.


I'm a defender of Monk, but not for the Knicks. You'll need a big PG that can guard 2s, and those don't really exist. Monk doesn't really make sense for any team in the top 5 outside of Philly, where he is a match made in heaven.

If I'm the Knicks I'm not even worrying about monk unless they finish the season like 10-2 and pick around 8-9.
RE: RE: He's definitely skilled for his height. He's another tweener though.  
EricNY33 : 3/22/2017 12:14 pm : link
In comment 13402569 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13402550 Jim in Hoboken said:


Quote:


He'll never be big enough to be the 4 with his body type, and at the 3 he's probably a 7 on the athletic scale compared to other NBA SF's.

For me he's behind the big 5 and Monk.



I'm a defender of Monk, but not for the Knicks. You'll need a big PG that can guard 2s, and those don't really exist. Monk doesn't really make sense for any team in the top 5 outside of Philly, where he is a match made in heaven.

If I'm the Knicks I'm not even worrying about monk unless they finish the season like 10-2 and pick around 8-9.


We agree here. I am not a Monk fan at all. If he had better PG skills I might be more inclined to like him.
For the Knicks we are likely picking between Tatum and Smith, or Isaac  
Jim in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 12:15 pm : link
. With our luck, though, we might finish 5th and still pick 8th.
RE: For the Knicks we are likely picking between Tatum and Smith, or Isaac  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13402587 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
. With our luck, though, we might finish 5th and still pick 8th.


Wait is that possible?

I thought anyone who finished out of the top 3 is guaranteed at least where they finished in the standings. I thought it's only those who finish bottom 3 run the risk of picking lower than where they end up (and only 4th at worst).

Correct me if I'm wrong, probably an.
RE: RE: For the Knicks we are likely picking between Tatum and Smith, or Isaac  
TyreeHelmet : 3/22/2017 12:45 pm : link
In comment 13402602 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13402587 Jim in Hoboken said:


Quote:


. With our luck, though, we might finish 5th and still pick 8th.



Wait is that possible?

I thought anyone who finished out of the top 3 is guaranteed at least where they finished in the standings. I thought it's only those who finish bottom 3 run the risk of picking lower than where they end up (and only 4th at worst).

Correct me if I'm wrong, probably an.


Top 3 of the draft is based off the lottery. 4th and down is based on record of the teams not in the top 3. Essentially, the lottery is only for the top 3 selections.
so essentialy if you get 5th  
nygiants16 : 3/22/2017 12:49 pm : link
the worse you can do is 8th
Just keep losing, please.  
bceagle05 : 3/22/2017 1:05 pm : link
.
RE: so essentialy if you get 5th  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13402682 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
the worse you can do is 8th


But thats only possible if 3 teams that finish with a better record than the Knicks all "win" the lottery and pick top 3 right?
Anyone else tired of hearing about KP's "regression?"  
bceagle05 : 3/22/2017 1:37 pm : link
Looks very active out there lately - still averaging 18 points, 7.3 boards and 2 blocks on the season. Shooting percentages are up from last year. Nothing I've seen has discouraged me from thinking he'll be a perennial All-Star at least. A couple of post moves on offense and he'll easily average north of 20ppg, probably closer to 25ppg in his prime.
RE: Anyone else tired of hearing about KP's  
giantsfan44ab : 3/22/2017 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13402752 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Looks very active out there lately - still averaging 18 points, 7.3 boards and 2 blocks on the season. Shooting percentages are up from last year. Nothing I've seen has discouraged me from thinking he'll be a perennial All-Star at least. A couple of post moves on offense and he'll easily average north of 20ppg, probably closer to 25ppg in his prime.


He's regressed in the sense that after his rookie year everyone was expecting prime-Dirk offense with prime-KG defense and that didn't happen.

He's doing just as well as Dirk did year 2.
RE: Anyone else tired of hearing about KP's  
Steve in Greenwich : 3/22/2017 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13402752 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Looks very active out there lately - still averaging 18 points, 7.3 boards and 2 blocks on the season. Shooting percentages are up from last year. Nothing I've seen has discouraged me from thinking he'll be a perennial All-Star at least. A couple of post moves on offense and he'll easily average north of 20ppg, probably closer to 25ppg in his prime.

I still think that narrative came majorly from the first few weeks after he came back from the injury where he just was not the same considering how great he looked at the beginning of the season. I think he just wasn't playing healthy.
Yeah, he was really killing it early in the season.  
bceagle05 : 3/22/2017 2:09 pm : link
Still very much looking forward to his development. A unicorn indeed.

As for the lottery, i do believe the 5 to 8 scenario only plays out under the circumstances you mentioned.
As  
DanMetroMan : 3/22/2017 2:09 pm : link
expected, Tatum declares
I think KP was a lot less physically aggressive this season  
Deej : 3/22/2017 3:20 pm : link
Think of the put back dunks his rookie year. Where was he flying to the basket? I do wonder whether it was intentional, to save his body. I think he progressed as a shooter and overall I cant say he regressed, excepting the injury period.
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