It was briefly discussed in another thread, but I keep reading it, whether it's fans or people in the media. The OL was not the biggest problem last year, Rashad Jennings was. In fact, the line was solid in that department. I really like Jennings as a person, but he was putrid last year. The OL created some holes and Jennings danced until they were closed.
My point of this thread is that I expect the offense to be much, much better with Perkins, let alone the upgrades we've added to help.
To me, YPC is a great indicator of success and Jennings was at 3.3 YPC. He was the worst RB in football in YPC. Paul Perkins however was somewhere in the middle of the pack at 4.1 YPC and that was in his rookie season. When Paul Perkins saw his rushes double in the last 5 games of the season, he averaged 4.5 YPC. That's a very respectable number over the last 5 games of the season.
Fast forward to 2017 and Perkins is a year older and has some experience. We added a TE that can block when all of last year we had some of the worst blocked TE's that I've ever seen. We upgraded the line. We added a threat at WR that needs to be accounted for who is also a very good run blocking WR.
Translation: Settle down. We are going to run the ball this season and the offense will be much improved. Control the ball with the running game, let Eli throw it when he has to and let the defense dominate, that's the recipe.
Link - ( New Window )
WHile I don't want to spend a lot of time defending Jennings, I think a lot of people are making a full season's worth of judgments on the guy based on those nine seconds.
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... Link - ( New Window )
WHile I don't want to spend a lot of time defending Jennings, I think a lot of people are making a full season's worth of judgments on the guy based on those nine seconds.
So how do you explain his 3.3 YPC vs 4.5 YPC for Perkins when he got 15 carries per game?
I love the guy as a person and really wanted NYG to sign him but he was bad in 2016. This isn't a great OL by any stretch but better RB's will be able to run well enough behind it to help the offense along.
Our TEs inability to block even a tackling dummy is another huge factor why our run blocking mostly sucked the last couple seasons
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with that.
Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.
Anyway, we didnt have any backs or TEs who could block or catch. Jennings took a million years to find a hole and was slow.
Beckham and Shepard were the only receivers who could constantly win a one on one matchup.
Even Marshall will add to the run game.
Watch the improvement with upgraded skill positions. Eli will once again trust what he's seeing and the whole unit will improve.
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top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).
Good luck with that.
Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.
I'm sure whatever solution we find here on BBI will truly have an impact on what the Giants do or don't do, so it's important to project our own thoughts as the clear recipe the team is banking on.
It's not entirely on the OL, but it's not 100% Jennings either. Come on - you watched the games, there were plays upon plays where some DL was right there to almost take the handoff.
Clearly Perkins is quicker and more elusive than Jennings, which helped him a ton... but the OL needs to play better too.
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.
What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:
A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.
My standards certainly haven't dropped.
In the last 5 games when they split evenly:
Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC
Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).
Shepard worked in the slot.
Cruz couldnt beat anyone.
King didnt come on until the last 2 games.
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Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.
What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:
A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.
My standards certainly haven't dropped.
I don't know about the patience aspect with regards to this line. There's something amiss with this team and its ability to put together an offensive line. Two first round picks spent on left tackles in four drafts, and neither appears able to play left tackle. Richburg's regression in 2017. It is also important to point out that Jerry and Newhouse were supposed to be, ideally, depth. Yet they were starters.
What's going on with the offensive line? What's the plan going forward? Is there a plan?
Run blocking-average
This year, they will be much improved with Marshall, Ellison, Fluker and Perkins.
In the last 5 games when they split evenly:
Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC
Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).
The point is that Perkins should be making people miss at the linebacker level, not in the backfield.
Flowers, Richburg and Hart can all still be major factors here.
Like him or not you can do alot worse than Jerry at RG.
Fluker can just easily surprise all the naysayers and next year half of this board would be calling for Reese's head that he didnt lock him up longer than 1 year. Remember Martellus Bennett? Sometimes that happens in this league.
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In comment 13402803 Go Terps said:
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Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.
What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:
A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.
My standards certainly haven't dropped.
I don't know about the patience aspect with regards to this line. There's something amiss with this team and its ability to put together an offensive line. Two first round picks spent on left tackles in four drafts, and neither appears able to play left tackle. Richburg's regression in 2017. It is also important to point out that Jerry and Newhouse were supposed to be, ideally, depth. Yet they were starters.
What's going on with the offensive line? What's the plan going forward? Is there a plan?
LTs are hard to find. This isn't that difficult. We've heard Richburg was hurt last year (of you believe that), and again- OL talent is scarce across the league.
Solari is widely respected OL coach. The plan is to win a Super Bowl...People here act like there is some grand conspiracy to piss BBI off.
I'm not defending the OL play, I'm simply tired over going over the same shit over and over. Half the league (at least) is looking for OL talent.
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In comment 13402806 Devon said:
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top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).
Good luck with that.
Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.
I'm sure whatever solution we find here on BBI will truly have an impact on what the Giants do or don't do, so it's important to project our own thoughts as the clear recipe the team is banking on.
I haven't seen you project one thought on a solution.
I realize management isn't coming here for solutions but just pointing out what's wrong isn't exactly ground breaking. Anyone could do that.
How about enlightening us with some of your knowledge on how to go about fixing what's wrong?
GoTerps OL:
Jesus-Bill Bellicheck-Zuess-Russ Grimm-Abraham Lincoln
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
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How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
It's the opposite of what actually happens. Don't you know that?
Giants spend $$$ to make a dominate D....Terps goes into his bag of tricks for "The time to spend on the OL was last year" tip.
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In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:
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How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Are we sure about this? (Serious question)
BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.
I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.
Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.
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In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:
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In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:
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How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Are we sure about this? (Serious question)
BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.
I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.
Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.
And some on BBI tend to overrate it's own. We've seen that a ton. The first SB was 10 years ago. This is also a completely different team. Hell, it almost a completely different team from 2011.
And Eli didn't mitigate the terrible tackle play in 2017 like he has at times in the past, he didn't step up like they expected/needed him to, but he also didn't for a second make that OL look worse either. Getting the ball out as quickly as he did and his sack avoidance trait seems to actually have given Flowers and the RT situation, at least, more shelter than they deserve from at least some of you.
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.
So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).
That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...
2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense
That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.
The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.
We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.
That's a lot of faith.
Tackle to tackle is far from perfect but TE was dreadful last year. Not sub par, dreadful. If they can draft a play maker on offense early that can virtually step in day one the offense will see significant upgrades at 3 positions before we even discuss the overall growth of the holdovers.
Every other call into WFAN says the Giants did nothing about their shitty OL. False. We added a B+ blocker to a position that gave us F- blocking in 2016.
I am forgetting some but those stick out.
I think the Giants are closer to middle of the road than dead last, and that's including the 2016 season.
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just because that plan isn't what you would do?
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.
So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).
That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...
2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense
That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.
The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.
We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.
That's a lot of faith.
Yep. And people keep saying the same thing every year re: Oline, and thus far for the past number of years now, it hasn't worked out. I hope this is the year, but I'm not betting anything on it. Always best to sit back and wait and see.
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just because that plan isn't what you would do?
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.
So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).
That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...
2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense
That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.
The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.
We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.
That's a lot of faith.
Name a team other than the Patriots that routinely has a plan that they never divert from regardless of draft busts, injuries, etc. The Packers? Am I forgetting anyone else? Now that Seattle has to pay people, they will go right back with the rest of the pack so its certainly not them.
As for our defense, experience can help make them better and if we keep Hankins, its invaluable. Just because we didn't add Logan doesn't mean we can't improve with the players we have now and possibly a game changer at #23.
Oh, and you said the Giants react. That they spent more on offense this off-season than on defense. This is flat out false. They spent a lot more on D this off-season. But in your world re-signing your own productive DE is a bad thing so I guess that move doesn't count? What about Robinson's contract? Or Wynn's?
Also, like I said, we did in fact address the run and pass blocking by signing the best available blocking TE. Again, this must not register since people don't seem to correlate blocking TE with OL play.
You are literally the only person on Earth that has a problem with the DL FA signings from 2016. Vernon and snacks have had a Reggie White type impact on this defense--seemingly overnight. Lol...terps is there lurking....questioning....annoyed. Love it.
Would getting Whitworth mean the Giants "have a plan"?
-terps
That offense couldn't run when needed. And it couldn't win a game when the HC's football life depended on it. That's some offense. Also, didn't the Giants draft a WR in the 2016 off-season? Didn't they have a second year LT? A 3rd year LG? A young TE in Donnell that they liked? Yes to all. They didn't ignore the offense. They chose to address the most embarrassing NYG defense to come along in over 40 years! And they crushed FA on a level not seen in NY football, ever.
I bet Terps hates blowjobs.
That offense couldn't run when needed. And it couldn't win a game when the HC's football life depended on it. That's some offense. Also, didn't the Giants draft a WR in the 2016 off-season? Didn't they have a second year LT? A 3rd year LG? A young TE in Donnell that they liked? Yes to all. They didn't ignore the offense. They chose to address the most embarrassing NYG defense to come along in over 40 years! And they crushed FA on a level not seen in NY football, ever.
Mostly agree. We scored a ton and passed a ton because we had to. Our defense couldn't stop anyone and the other team knew that also. I think a big factor was that teams didn't know how to slow down OBJ also. That changed in 2016.
Let's not even bring up how the Giants saw the rising tide of economics coming in and got ahead of the madness when they "overpaid" for prime grade A cuts of FA meat. How do those contracts look now after seeing MAtt fucking Khali sign for FIFTY FIVE million! FIFTY FIVE! This guy didn't even play last year! How does Vernon's deal look now? Ask Dallas or Wash if they are happy the Giants "reacted."
The Giants haven't always done the smart pro-active thing in FA or in general but 2016 could and should go down as a watershed moment in this tean's FA history. They stole those guys. Absolutely stole them.
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In comment 13402867 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:
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In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:
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How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Are we sure about this? (Serious question)
BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.
I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.
Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.
And some on BBI tend to overrate it's own. We've seen that a ton. The first SB was 10 years ago. This is also a completely different team. Hell, it almost a completely different team from 2011.
"The first SB was 10 years ago."
and the last was 6 years ago....Talk about spoiled.
Maybe I'm getting older (40 this year), but I tend look at bigger picture now..I just don't get the constant bitching about everything.
And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.
And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.
100% agree. A big reason for the stats was circumstance. First off, the other teams defense was on the field all game because our defense gave up a score on an average of 3.5 plays per drive(not a real stat FWIW). Teams laid back because they had leads and because they knew our defense wasn't stopping anyone, but like you said, when we had to score....we couldn't.
I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.
I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.
Njoku-OL would be dynamite for the first 2 picks. How could BBI not be happy with that?
They are still in fine shape financially where they can re-sign most of their own guys. The Giants were primed to be a good relevant team for 3-4-5 years once they put together that FA class and 2016 draft. That took planning.
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I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.
Njoku-OL would be dynamite for the first 2 picks. How could BBI not be happy with that?
I'd be thrilled with that. Then grab RB CB in the mid rounds. Should be good ones left as the draft is deep there.
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I don't want to kill the 2015 offense too much but I have to when I hear people wax poetic about it. Yes it could score at times. Yes it piled up some numbers and not all of them in garbage time, but they didn't win and they had still had holes all over the unit. RB, TE, OL and WRs were all weak. Eli and Beckham played at a super high level. They covered up warts. If the Giants signed two stud FA OL it doesn't ensure jack shit that the offense elevates to an even higher level in 2016.
And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.
100% agree. A big reason for the stats was circumstance. First off, the other teams defense was on the field all game because our defense gave up a score on an average of 3.5 plays per drive(not a real stat FWIW). Teams laid back because they had leads and because they knew our defense wasn't stopping anyone, but like you said, when we had to score....we couldn't.
The Giants defense sucked slowly in 2015. They were 26th in defensive ToP, giving up brutally long drives on the regular.
Also, this myth of the team constantly having to play catch up that year is tiring. How exactly do people think they gave up so many last second game -winning drives? Other than the thwarted Carolina comeback, most of the games were tight. Garbage time wasn't a big thing by any measure.
Saying Reese should've went after OL in '16 is empty MMQB garbage. The defensive additions turned the defense from historically bad to arguably the best by the end of the season last year. The big 3 gave this team an identity, something it hasn't had in a long time.
There's no guarantee OL additions last year would've improved the team's performance in '16 if you subtract the defensive additions. Smart money is on the team performs substantially worse, and we'd have holes all over the roster right now with very little vision on the direction of the team.
As constructed, this team is built to win now with an elite defense and talent on offense. Solidify the OL, find another offensive weapon, and add to the D via the draft and this team is set for a run or two.
Francesser just said his understanding is the Giants plan to play Fluker at Right Tackle. He said this on two or three occasions.
Like I said, hilarious or interesting. Take your pick. We all read last week that Fluke would play or compete at guard.
Lol yes he did. Now he's back tracking on that and saying the Giants likely have a backup plan to Flowers at LT.
Mike says things...
Fluker at RT does make a lot of sense. HE played better that then at guard and the Giants have two starters, albeit Jerry is shaky at run blocking.
Man, how nice it would be if Fluker solidified RT and the Giants landed a plug and play guard in round 2 or 3. Now you're talking. Jerry moves to the bench as depth and away we go. Probably a pipe dream to put that much faith in Fluker but the plug and play guard thing could happen.
THAT is the fucking point.
They had ridiculous cap space before the 2016 season, and the offensive line is still an enormous question mark.
And did I just see Vernon mentioned in the same sentence as Reggie White? It's amazing that the people saying this stupid shit have the balls to take personal shots at anybody.
I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.
All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.
If you want to defend the interior's pass blocking, that's an entirely separate story.
I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.
All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.
They're not just hoping with Flowers. They're hoping with Richburg, Fluker, and Jerry. They're also hoping that Pugh stays healthy. That's a lot of hoping.
If you're going to blame Eli and Jennings (and I was never a Jennings fan) for the line's performance last year then you and I saw two different things. I've linked cnewk's Perkins thread after the Pittsburgh game below. It's obviously only a few moments from one game, but the pictures don't paint a pretty picture of the OL's performance.
Link - ( New Window )
Yep, the pressure numbers were just made up and the tackle play was just bad occasionally.
Tell yourself whatever you need to.
I don't buy the yards per carry argument in isolation. You have to remember over the latter half the season teams were blanketing Beckham with Man Cover 2 giving us favourable running situations which we were unable to execute consistently.
Much of our Oline is young and we can reasonably expect them to improve. We need to remember that cohesion of continuity is important.
It's line blocking. It's backs and receivers blocking. It's TE blocking. It's RB talent. It's lack of passing offense performance.
Laying it ALL on the offensive line ignores a lot of other issues, and how the Giants attacked free agency on offense indicates this.
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the Giants had every right to think EF was their LT. He was the 9 overall pick going into his 2nd season.
I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.
All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.
They're not just hoping with Flowers. They're hoping with Richburg, Fluker, and Jerry. They're also hoping that Pugh stays healthy. That's a lot of hoping.
If you're going to blame Eli and Jennings (and I was never a Jennings fan) for the line's performance last year then you and I saw two different things. I've linked cnewk's Perkins thread after the Pittsburgh game below. It's obviously only a few moments from one game, but the pictures don't paint a pretty picture of the OL's performance. Link - ( New Window )
I wouldnt say they are "hoping" on Richburg. While he did not take the step up that most expected here last year, he was still a top half C in the league. Expecting progress out of your 4th year center (who is one of the better athletes at his position) is not really asking for a lot.
But sometimes you just have to look at the obvious. The running game absolutely sucked.
Very happy Jennings is gone. Perkins looks like the second coming to many because he looks like he belongs on an NFL field and no Giants fans are used to seeing that because we have been treated to Jennings for the past few seasons. In my opinion he did nothing well as a back and is one of the worst starting RB's in the NFL. His cut is addition by subtraction. He had no physicality or tackle breaking, he looked like he was running through water, he had no shake and bake and (although it is one play) that .gif shows he has a vision problem as well.
Very happy he is gone.
There is no doubt the O line is a problem too. But, its shortcomings were made worse by the Giants fielding one of the worst RB and TE corps in the league.
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
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The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Very happy Jennings is gone. Perkins looks like the second coming to many because he looks like he belongs on an NFL field and no Giants fans are used to seeing that because we have been treated to Jennings for the past few seasons. In my opinion he did nothing well as a back and is one of the worst starting RB's in the NFL. His cut is addition by subtraction. He had no physicality or tackle breaking, he looked like he was running through water, he had no shake and bake and (although it is one play) that .gif shows he has a vision problem as well.
Very happy he is gone.
There is no doubt the O line is a problem too. But, its shortcomings were made worse by the Giants fielding one of the worst RB and TE corps in the league.
Mostly agree. Jennings was a good blocker, which every head coach needs. The last line pretty much sums it up. Maybe if we were playing a game of semantics I could say that the OL isn't necessary a problem, but it's not one of our strengths. 4.5 YPC is respectable and that was with a rookie RB and no TE.
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In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:
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The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.
Yes, he average 4.1 yards, but dig a little deeper. He was getting 5-7 rushes per game for the majority of the season. MacAdoo finally let him split the carries with 5 games left and he started to get 15+ carries per game. In the last 5 games, he average 4.5 YPC.
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In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:
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The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.
3.3 YPC is atrocious, do we just ignore that? And Perkins did have less carries but his last 3 games he averaged 15 carries at 4.8 per clip, should we ignore that too?
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
The load was way too small! Oh!
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
Your only notable contribution on this discussion is blowjobs and wet dreams. Well done.
If you consider this offensive line the quality equivalent of a blowjob then you need to have a serious conversation with whomever it is that is blowing you.
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.
At what point is it on the players and coaches? There's blame at all levels but they can't just put everything towards the OL despite their already large investments via the draft.
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In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
Your only notable contribution on this discussion is blowjobs and wet dreams. Well done.
If you consider this offensive line the quality equivalent of a blowjob then you need to have a serious conversation with whomever it is that is blowing you.
Would you stop already? Where did I compare the OL to a BJ?
At this point, you're making stuff up.
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.
Yes, Dave. I get that. The OL has been an issue for some time. That is not what I'm debating.....Nevermind.
I guess the real issue is what kind of running game can we expect this year.
We do need improved play from our Oline, while there are several areas that need to be improve, we do have a solid base to build on.
We do have a good core of young players who we can expect to continue to develop. We do have a lot of continuity which is a definite advantage.
We also have a year of experience with Mike Solari's coaching with his particular style of Oline play.
As things are situated at the moment, we have pretty much the same group as last year, with DJ Fluker effectively replacing Newhouse and Beatty which is an upgrade plus imho. Plus we have the draft where I would expect to add more Oline talent, particularly if you look at the prospects the Giants have shown interest in.
I am reasonably confident that we will have much improved OL play and when you factor in changes at the skill position, we should have a dramatically improved ground game.
Point being if the investment is to increase points gained and decrease points allowed, the free agent investment last year for the year and the next 2 looks good.
But keep on twisting irrelevant lines or snippets from this debate to deflect. Because the entire point of this is to fight over whether Vernon and snacks were as inpactful as reggie white. Cmon man. Who cares? My point was they had a huge impact here in year one. Huge. And you damn well know it. Everyone does.
Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.
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Every RB has to make people miss, Jennings cannot. The Giants running game was pretty good when Perkins took over, when Perkins played.
In the last 5 games when they split evenly:
Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC
Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).
The point is that Perkins should be making people miss at the linebacker level, not in the backfield.
agreed, not much any RB can do when he is being chased in the backfield..
The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".
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in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.
Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.
don't quite get your response, this was about the O-line, am I right!
The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".
Almost every team they played last season featured the Cover 2 of Death against them.
The Browns definitely weren't the ones to alert the league of anything. Word was out well before then.
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In comment 13403561 gmenatlarge said:
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in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.
Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.
don't quite get your response, this was about the O-line, am I right!
Not quite. It's specifically about the run blocking and the running game. The OL is not good, nobody on this whole thread said they were. Regarding the running game, Jennings was a bigger problem than the line. Perkins had success with the same line. I expect the running game to improve this year with Perkins, a blocking TE, a good blocking/weapon at WR, upgrades to the run blocking OL.
The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".
Wait, you think week 11 was when teams realized this and changed how they played us?
6 rushing TDs, least a.k.a. last in the league,
and about 10 less rushing first downs as opposed to average opponent if I read that correctly.
if not for the big DL, we could have had an UGLY year
or - are you suggesting that the team find a great RB who can get yards even when the blocking breaks down?
and what then, if that one person gets injured?
comparing cost value to any DL vs Ol, silly, that's not really doable. it appears like just another in a long list of excuses not to mock draft OL such as guards
But, the rhetorical lengths people seem to go to in order to avoid drafting the very best guards and big centers, amazing.