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Giants OL was not that bad at run blocking last year......

Keith : 3/22/2017 1:57 pm
It was briefly discussed in another thread, but I keep reading it, whether it's fans or people in the media. The OL was not the biggest problem last year, Rashad Jennings was. In fact, the line was solid in that department. I really like Jennings as a person, but he was putrid last year. The OL created some holes and Jennings danced until they were closed.

My point of this thread is that I expect the offense to be much, much better with Perkins, let alone the upgrades we've added to help.

To me, YPC is a great indicator of success and Jennings was at 3.3 YPC. He was the worst RB in football in YPC. Paul Perkins however was somewhere in the middle of the pack at 4.1 YPC and that was in his rookie season. When Paul Perkins saw his rushes double in the last 5 games of the season, he averaged 4.5 YPC. That's a very respectable number over the last 5 games of the season.

Fast forward to 2017 and Perkins is a year older and has some experience. We added a TE that can block when all of last year we had some of the worst blocked TE's that I've ever seen. We upgraded the line. We added a threat at WR that needs to be accounted for who is also a very good run blocking WR.

Translation: Settle down. We are going to run the ball this season and the offense will be much improved. Control the ball with the running game, let Eli throw it when he has to and let the defense dominate, that's the recipe.
This  
EddieNYG : 3/22/2017 1:59 pm : link
...
Link - ( New Window )
Any competent back  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:01 pm : link
takes that for 7 yards at a minimum and a decent back takes it for 20.
Agree 100%  
adamg : 3/22/2017 2:01 pm : link
I was Jenning biggest defender last year, and that was wrong. The stats don't lie. He ran a full yard less per carry than our other backs. That change alone will be a huge difference.
RE: This  
an_idol_mind : 3/22/2017 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13402785 EddieNYG said:
Quote:
... Link - ( New Window )


WHile I don't want to spend a lot of time defending Jennings, I think a lot of people are making a full season's worth of judgments on the guy based on those nine seconds.
RE: RE: This  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13402789 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
In comment 13402785 EddieNYG said:


Quote:


... Link - ( New Window )



WHile I don't want to spend a lot of time defending Jennings, I think a lot of people are making a full season's worth of judgments on the guy based on those nine seconds.


So how do you explain his 3.3 YPC vs 4.5 YPC for Perkins when he got 15 carries per game?
Also,  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:05 pm : link
I'd bet there are 20-30 clips just like that one which show how bad Jennings was. I don't have the time or ability to create those clips, but I watched the games and a few times per game I'd see him miss a hole.
Jennings didn't do much of anything well last year.  
arcarsenal : 3/22/2017 2:07 pm : link
He doesn't accelerate well, he doesn't have good vision, doesn't have good breakaway speed.. he's a replacement level RB at best.

I love the guy as a person and really wanted NYG to sign him but he was bad in 2016. This isn't a great OL by any stretch but better RB's will be able to run well enough behind it to help the offense along.
Also..  
arcarsenal : 3/22/2017 2:07 pm : link
The run blocking is going to be better with the additions of Ellison and Marshall.
We also got better down the stretch  
mfsd : 3/22/2017 2:08 pm : link
as Pugh came back and Richburg got healthier. That coincided with Perkins taking over the lead role. No doubt Jennings was done and Perkins made a difference, but the line gets some credit for improving throughout the season too

Our TEs inability to block even a tackling dummy is another huge factor why our run blocking mostly sucked the last couple seasons
I think we can be a really good run blocking line.  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:08 pm : link
Our weakness is in pass protection, IMO.
.  
Go Terps : 3/22/2017 2:10 pm : link
Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.

It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.

I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
There is a good chance  
SLIM_ : 3/22/2017 2:11 pm : link
that 3 of our skill position players from last year who started early in the year (Cruz, Jennings, Donnell) will be out of the NFL this year. The line is below average but got almost no help between the surrounding talent and the oversimplified scheme.
We have one of the very best WRs in the league and are paying the QB  
Devon : 3/22/2017 2:12 pm : link
top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).

Good luck with that.
RE: We have one of the very best WRs in the league and are paying the QB  
Eman11 : 3/22/2017 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13402806 Devon said:
Quote:
top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).

Good luck with that.


Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.
I have said since the season  
Chris684 : 3/22/2017 2:15 pm : link
The OL was not helped out at all this season by the skill positions, and I include Eli in that as well who I don't think had his best season in terms of pocket presence. McAdoo talked about this a few weeks ago.

Anyway, we didnt have any backs or TEs who could block or catch. Jennings took a million years to find a hole and was slow.

Beckham and Shepard were the only receivers who could constantly win a one on one matchup.

Even Marshall will add to the run game.

Watch the improvement with upgraded skill positions. Eli will once again trust what he's seeing and the whole unit will improve.
RE: RE: We have one of the very best WRs in the league and are paying the QB  
Devon : 3/22/2017 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13402813 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 13402806 Devon said:


Quote:


top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).

Good luck with that.



Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.

I'm sure whatever solution we find here on BBI will truly have an impact on what the Giants do or don't do, so it's important to project our own thoughts as the clear recipe the team is banking on.
There were plenty of plays  
GiantsRage2007 : 3/22/2017 2:21 pm : link
Where defenders were in the backfield. The OL had plenty blown blocks.

It's not entirely on the OL, but it's not 100% Jennings either. Come on - you watched the games, there were plays upon plays where some DL was right there to almost take the handoff.

Clearly Perkins is quicker and more elusive than Jennings, which helped him a ton... but the OL needs to play better too.
RE: .  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13402803 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.

It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.

I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.


I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.

What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:

A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.

My standards certainly haven't dropped.
A good RB makes people miss, I'm not sure what your point is.  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:23 pm : link
Every RB has to make people miss, Jennings cannot. The Giants running game was pretty good when Perkins took over, when Perkins played.

In the last 5 games when they split evenly:

Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC

Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).
Disagree.  
Giant John : 3/22/2017 2:25 pm : link
Bad blocking bad RB. That simple
Who were we throwing the ball deep too?  
Chris684 : 3/22/2017 2:25 pm : link
Beckham was the main focus of every defense.

Shepard worked in the slot.

Cruz couldnt beat anyone.

King didnt come on until the last 2 games.
RE: RE: .  
Go Terps : 3/22/2017 2:28 pm : link
In comment 13402822 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13402803 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.

It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.

I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.



I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.

What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:

A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.

My standards certainly haven't dropped.


I don't know about the patience aspect with regards to this line. There's something amiss with this team and its ability to put together an offensive line. Two first round picks spent on left tackles in four drafts, and neither appears able to play left tackle. Richburg's regression in 2017. It is also important to point out that Jerry and Newhouse were supposed to be, ideally, depth. Yet they were starters.

What's going on with the offensive line? What's the plan going forward? Is there a plan?

Overall, Giants OL was not good last year.  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:28 pm : link
Pass blocking-bad
Run blocking-average

This year, they will be much improved with Marshall, Ellison, Fluker and Perkins.
RE: A good RB makes people miss, I'm not sure what your point is.  
Go Terps : 3/22/2017 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13402823 Keith said:
Quote:
Every RB has to make people miss, Jennings cannot. The Giants running game was pretty good when Perkins took over, when Perkins played.

In the last 5 games when they split evenly:

Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC

Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).


The point is that Perkins should be making people miss at the linebacker level, not in the backfield.
He average 4.5 yards per carry  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:31 pm : link
when he got touches over 69 carries. I didn't see Barry Sanders out there. Where is the proof that this was all because he made guys miss behind the line? More realistic, you are wrong again.
RE: Disagree.  
Beer Man : 3/22/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13402825 Giant John said:
Quote:
Bad blocking bad RB. That simple
This +1. Don't fool yourselves, the OL was terrible at run blocking last year; RB performance was bad as well. Lets hope that Flucker can play up to his high draft status, Flowers improves, the team can find a decent OL addition in the draft, and that Perkins is the RB we all hope him to be.
Jennings was terrible  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 2:36 pm : link
Perkins will make mistakes but he will also make plays, its a give and take with a year 2 player. Him starting (as of now) and getting those 15 carries per game will increase the likelihood of popping a big run. Add in a run blocking upgrade in Fluker and Marshall not getting bullied out wide, and we should 100% run the ball better next year. If we don't, there's a major issue.
and Ellison  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 2:37 pm : link
who actually may be the biggest upgrade in our run game.
It's also forgotten  
Chris684 : 3/22/2017 2:37 pm : link
that our best OL (Pugh) who also happens to play next to our 2nd year 23 year old LT missed 5 games in the middle of the year. Then his backups went down. Does anyone think that could have caused problems?

Flowers, Richburg and Hart can all still be major factors here.

Like him or not you can do alot worse than Jerry at RG.

Fluker can just easily surprise all the naysayers and next year half of this board would be calling for Reese's head that he didnt lock him up longer than 1 year. Remember Martellus Bennett? Sometimes that happens in this league.
So GT, if we had a OL up to your standards  
David in LA : 3/22/2017 2:41 pm : link
Perkins should be averaging, what 6.5 ypc?
I'm also hoping there is a top tier RB available when we pick  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:41 pm : link
in rd 1. I'd love to have 2 guys that can make things happen. I think the biggest concern for this team is Eli and whether or not last year was a regression or a bad season. I'd rather put less on Eli and get some weapons behind him.
RE: RE: RE: .  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 2:42 pm : link
In comment 13402831 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13402822 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13402803 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.

It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.

I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.



I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.

What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:

A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.

My standards certainly haven't dropped.



I don't know about the patience aspect with regards to this line. There's something amiss with this team and its ability to put together an offensive line. Two first round picks spent on left tackles in four drafts, and neither appears able to play left tackle. Richburg's regression in 2017. It is also important to point out that Jerry and Newhouse were supposed to be, ideally, depth. Yet they were starters.

What's going on with the offensive line? What's the plan going forward? Is there a plan?


LTs are hard to find. This isn't that difficult. We've heard Richburg was hurt last year (of you believe that), and again- OL talent is scarce across the league.

Solari is widely respected OL coach. The plan is to win a Super Bowl...People here act like there is some grand conspiracy to piss BBI off.

I'm not defending the OL play, I'm simply tired over going over the same shit over and over. Half the league (at least) is looking for OL talent.

RE: RE: RE: We have one of the very best WRs in the league and are paying the QB  
Eman11 : 3/22/2017 2:43 pm : link
In comment 13402818 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13402813 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 13402806 Devon said:


Quote:


top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).

Good luck with that.



Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.


I'm sure whatever solution we find here on BBI will truly have an impact on what the Giants do or don't do, so it's important to project our own thoughts as the clear recipe the team is banking on.


I haven't seen you project one thought on a solution.

I realize management isn't coming here for solutions but just pointing out what's wrong isn't exactly ground breaking. Anyone could do that.

How about enlightening us with some of your knowledge on how to go about fixing what's wrong?
I agree with the 'patience' excuse.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 2:44 pm : link
How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
RE: So GT, if we had a OL up to your standards  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13402851 David in LA said:
Quote:
Perkins should be averaging, what 6.5 ypc?


GoTerps OL:

Jesus-Bill Bellicheck-Zuess-Russ Grimm-Abraham Lincoln
how can anyone claim the Giants don't have a plan?  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 2:46 pm : link
just because that plan isn't what you would do?

Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.

GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
RE: I agree with the 'patience' excuse.  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.


I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.

Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?

People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Take a gander at the blue chip OT prospects of recent  
David in LA : 3/22/2017 2:49 pm : link
very high bust rate at that position league wide.
RE: RE: I agree with the 'patience' excuse.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.



I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.

Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?

People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.


Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
RE: how can anyone claim the Giants don't have a plan?  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13402861 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
just because that plan isn't what you would do?

Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.

GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?


It's the opposite of what actually happens. Don't you know that?

Giants spend $$$ to make a dominate D....Terps goes into his bag of tricks for "The time to spend on the OL was last year" tip.

Jennings and to a point Eli  
Keith : 3/22/2017 2:50 pm : link
made the OL look worse than they were. I'm not crazy to think they are good, but they aren't as bad as some keep suggesting, IMO. Just look at the rushing attack when Perkins took some of Jennings touches. They will be improved this year for the many reasons stated on this thread. I don't believe they will be the downfall of this team.
RE: RE: RE: I agree with the 'patience' excuse.  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13402867 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.



I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.

Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?

People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.



Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.


Are we sure about this? (Serious question)

BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.

I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.

Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I agree with the 'patience' excuse.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13402877 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13402867 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.



I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.

Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?

People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.



Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.



Are we sure about this? (Serious question)

BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.

I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.

Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.


And some on BBI tend to overrate it's own. We've seen that a ton. The first SB was 10 years ago. This is also a completely different team. Hell, it almost a completely different team from 2011.
The OL didn't fall off a cliff in 2013. It was garbage in 2011.  
Devon : 3/22/2017 2:57 pm : link
They gave up, collectively, the most pressures in the NFL that season. We're 7 years deep, really, in problems on that front and can probably claim they've been trying to rebuild the OL since 2009..

And Eli didn't mitigate the terrible tackle play in 2017 like he has at times in the past, he didn't step up like they expected/needed him to, but he also didn't for a second make that OL look worse either. Getting the ball out as quickly as he did and his sack avoidance trait seems to actually have given Flowers and the RT situation, at least, more shelter than they deserve from at least some of you.
RE: how can anyone claim the Giants don't have a plan?  
Go Terps : 3/22/2017 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13402861 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
just because that plan isn't what you would do?

Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.

GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?


Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.

So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).

That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...

2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense

That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.

The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.

We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.

That's a lot of faith.
the Giants TEs was the biggest problem with the offense last year  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:04 pm : link
if the NFL classified TE as part of the OL maybe fans would appreciate the upgrade the Giants made when they signed Ellison.

Tackle to tackle is far from perfect but TE was dreadful last year. Not sub par, dreadful. If they can draft a play maker on offense early that can virtually step in day one the offense will see significant upgrades at 3 positions before we even discuss the overall growth of the holdovers.

Every other call into WFAN says the Giants did nothing about their shitty OL. False. We added a B+ blocker to a position that gave us F- blocking in 2016.
Colts have been waiting longer than us  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 3:05 pm : link
Minnesota has been pitiful, same with LA and Detroit (people talk about Eli dying, what about Stafford for his whole career?). Baltimore has struggled, same with Seattle more recently.

I am forgetting some but those stick out.

I think the Giants are closer to middle of the road than dead last, and that's including the 2016 season.
Ok. So, 1 team has been waiting longer than us, maybe.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 3:06 pm : link
.
Yep, Ellison and even Marshall will help  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:06 pm : link
signifintly with the run blocking. I would like the Giants to get a playmaking RB or a playmaking TE(who can block) in rd 1 to help even more. We've all seen the clips of Donnell trying to block and completely whiffing on his man. How is it even possible to not get a finger on your block?
RE: RE: how can anyone claim the Giants don't have a plan?  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13402894 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13402861 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


just because that plan isn't what you would do?

Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.

GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?



Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.

So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).

That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...

2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense

That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.

The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.

We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.

That's a lot of faith.


Yep. And people keep saying the same thing every year re: Oline, and thus far for the past number of years now, it hasn't worked out. I hope this is the year, but I'm not betting anything on it. Always best to sit back and wait and see.
RE: RE: how can anyone claim the Giants don't have a plan?  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 3:09 pm : link
In comment 13402894 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13402861 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


just because that plan isn't what you would do?

Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.

GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?



Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.

So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).

That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...

2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense

That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.

The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.

We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.

That's a lot of faith.


Name a team other than the Patriots that routinely has a plan that they never divert from regardless of draft busts, injuries, etc. The Packers? Am I forgetting anyone else? Now that Seattle has to pay people, they will go right back with the rest of the pack so its certainly not them.

As for our defense, experience can help make them better and if we keep Hankins, its invaluable. Just because we didn't add Logan doesn't mean we can't improve with the players we have now and possibly a game changer at #23.
Terps  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:12 pm : link
ok fine they upgrade the OG positions last off-season. Was there an OT available too? Or two guards? Assuming it was an OT and OG, ok fine, we sign both. So now we have a talented OL with the same shitty TEs. And we now have the shittiest DL in the NFC East while facing at least two elite offenses in our division. Sounds fun. I look forward to more 1991 Houston Oilers football in Jersey.

Oh, and you said the Giants react. That they spent more on offense this off-season than on defense. This is flat out false. They spent a lot more on D this off-season. But in your world re-signing your own productive DE is a bad thing so I guess that move doesn't count? What about Robinson's contract? Or Wynn's?

Also, like I said, we did in fact address the run and pass blocking by signing the best available blocking TE. Again, this must not register since people don't seem to correlate blocking TE with OL play.

You are literally the only person on Earth that has a problem with the DL FA signings from 2016. Vernon and snacks have had a Reggie White type impact on this defense--seemingly overnight. Lol...terps is there lurking....questioning....annoyed. Love it.
I just don't know what you guys want  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 3:12 pm : link
You'd probably all feel great if we land Whitworth (a 35 year old that can't possibly get injured) but you'd still "wait and see" just the same.

Would getting Whitworth mean the Giants "have a plan"?
Weakest link on defense was the FS position last year  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:14 pm : link
and Thompson could be a big factor. The kid needs to stay healthy, but he could be lightyears better than Adams. The defense wasn't good last year, they were great and they were improving as they played together more. They will continue to improve and they have the potential to be special.
Reggie White  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:15 pm : link
and JJ Watt are overrated anyway.

-terps
and I might be in the minority  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:17 pm : link
but I will keep shouting from the hilltops that the 2015 NYG offense has to be the most overrated offense in NFL history. Remind me how many CLUTCH winning drives that glorified offense ripped off in 2015? How many? 2? 3?

That offense couldn't run when needed. And it couldn't win a game when the HC's football life depended on it. That's some offense. Also, didn't the Giants draft a WR in the 2016 off-season? Didn't they have a second year LT? A 3rd year LG? A young TE in Donnell that they liked? Yes to all. They didn't ignore the offense. They chose to address the most embarrassing NYG defense to come along in over 40 years! And they crushed FA on a level not seen in NY football, ever.

Terps has evolved into a more sophisticated Radar-esque contrarian  
David in LA : 3/22/2017 3:17 pm : link
Giants can bring in Tony Boselli and I have a feeling we'd be hearing complaints about salary, and where else that could have been put to use.
RE: Terps has evolved into a more sophisticated Radar-esque contrarian  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13402938 David in LA said:
Quote:
Giants can bring in Tony Boselli and I have a feeling we'd be hearing complaints about salary, and where else that could have been put to use.


I bet Terps hates blowjobs.
RE: and I might be in the minority  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13402937 djm said:
Quote:
but I will keep shouting from the hilltops that the 2015 NYG offense has to be the most overrated offense in NFL history. Remind me how many CLUTCH winning drives that glorified offense ripped off in 2015? How many? 2? 3?

That offense couldn't run when needed. And it couldn't win a game when the HC's football life depended on it. That's some offense. Also, didn't the Giants draft a WR in the 2016 off-season? Didn't they have a second year LT? A 3rd year LG? A young TE in Donnell that they liked? Yes to all. They didn't ignore the offense. They chose to address the most embarrassing NYG defense to come along in over 40 years! And they crushed FA on a level not seen in NY football, ever.


Mostly agree. We scored a ton and passed a ton because we had to. Our defense couldn't stop anyone and the other team knew that also. I think a big factor was that teams didn't know how to slow down OBJ also. That changed in 2016.
it's lazy to say the Giants only reacted  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:22 pm : link
but the NFL is all about reactions. Of course you're going to react. WTF are you supposed to do to a crisis? Address the polar opposite concerns on the roster? Lol...are you frcking mad?

Let's not even bring up how the Giants saw the rising tide of economics coming in and got ahead of the madness when they "overpaid" for prime grade A cuts of FA meat. How do those contracts look now after seeing MAtt fucking Khali sign for FIFTY FIVE million! FIFTY FIVE! This guy didn't even play last year! How does Vernon's deal look now? Ask Dallas or Wash if they are happy the Giants "reacted."

The Giants haven't always done the smart pro-active thing in FA or in general but 2016 could and should go down as a watershed moment in this tean's FA history. They stole those guys. Absolutely stole them.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I agree with the 'patience' excuse.  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13402881 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13402877 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13402867 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.



I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.

Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?

People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.



Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.



Are we sure about this? (Serious question)

BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.

I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.

Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.



And some on BBI tend to overrate it's own. We've seen that a ton. The first SB was 10 years ago. This is also a completely different team. Hell, it almost a completely different team from 2011.


"The first SB was 10 years ago."

and the last was 6 years ago....Talk about spoiled.

Maybe I'm getting older (40 this year), but I tend look at bigger picture now..I just don't get the constant bitching about everything.

Keith  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:28 pm : link
I don't want to kill the 2015 offense too much but I have to when I hear people wax poetic about it. Yes it could score at times. Yes it piled up some numbers and not all of them in garbage time, but they didn't win and they had still had holes all over the unit. RB, TE, OL and WRs were all weak. Eli and Beckham played at a super high level. They covered up warts. If the Giants signed two stud FA OL it doesn't ensure jack shit that the offense elevates to an even higher level in 2016.

And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.
Aside from the QB,  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:28 pm : link
the Giants are an ascending team in every aspect of the game. They have youth and talent all over the field, I'm glad they are spending the money in the right places.
The OL  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 3:29 pm : link
has been decent the past few seasons. I think it was around average for the league. Eli might be dead if we had Indy, Seattle, Cleveland, or Arizona's line. Seriously, there are much worse OL's in the league than ours. We have some games where we don't "dominate" up front but it's close. Some of these teams can't sniff a yard on the ground.
I'm pretty happy with how  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 3:30 pm : link
Reese has overhauled the OL. Premium picks on 3 of the starting 5, with hopes to add more this season.
RE: Keith  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13402959 djm said:
Quote:
I don't want to kill the 2015 offense too much but I have to when I hear people wax poetic about it. Yes it could score at times. Yes it piled up some numbers and not all of them in garbage time, but they didn't win and they had still had holes all over the unit. RB, TE, OL and WRs were all weak. Eli and Beckham played at a super high level. They covered up warts. If the Giants signed two stud FA OL it doesn't ensure jack shit that the offense elevates to an even higher level in 2016.

And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.


100% agree. A big reason for the stats was circumstance. First off, the other teams defense was on the field all game because our defense gave up a score on an average of 3.5 plays per drive(not a real stat FWIW). Teams laid back because they had leads and because they knew our defense wasn't stopping anyone, but like you said, when we had to score....we couldn't.
You're right Go Terps  
WillieYoung : 3/22/2017 3:31 pm : link
when the defense sucked in 2015 we should have spent on offense and when the offense sucked in 2016 we should have spent on defense. That would have been a plan, a bad plan but a plan.
We went 11-5 last season  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 3:32 pm : link
with a brand new coach, a really young roster, and a medcore to sup par OL. This is a good thing.
I don't know  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:33 pm : link
I find it hard to sit here and not feel good about where this team sits. Anything can happen I get that. But from a talent POV we are very good. We could use one more play maker on offense. A slight tick upward (realistically speaking) in some of young OLinemen and for Marshall and Ellison to fill in as expected. Some ifs. Every team has them. But not that many. And the star power here is as high as I can remember. We do need one more offensive play maker though. Even with Marshall...

I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.
RE: I don't know  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13402971 djm said:
Quote:


I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.

Njoku-OL would be dynamite for the first 2 picks. How could BBI not be happy with that?
as for the reacting thing  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:39 pm : link
I think it's clear that 2016 off-season was years in the making. That wasn't some reaction as much as it was the Giants flushing out the dead wood, clearing up the cap and waiting for the right time to strike and strike big. They didn't spend blindly or panic. They waited 3-4 years for that kind of an off-season. Then they spent big on ascending talent.

They are still in fine shape financially where they can re-sign most of their own guys. The Giants were primed to be a good relevant team for 3-4-5 years once they put together that FA class and 2016 draft. That took planning.
RE: RE: I don't know  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:40 pm : link
In comment 13402972 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 13402971 djm said:


Quote:




I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.


Njoku-OL would be dynamite for the first 2 picks. How could BBI not be happy with that?


I'd be thrilled with that. Then grab RB CB in the mid rounds. Should be good ones left as the draft is deep there.
I'm 100% on board with that.  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:42 pm : link
Giants are absolutely loaded with youth and talent all over the field except QB, TE, LB.
RE: RE: Keith  
Devon : 3/22/2017 3:44 pm : link
In comment 13402965 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13402959 djm said:


Quote:


I don't want to kill the 2015 offense too much but I have to when I hear people wax poetic about it. Yes it could score at times. Yes it piled up some numbers and not all of them in garbage time, but they didn't win and they had still had holes all over the unit. RB, TE, OL and WRs were all weak. Eli and Beckham played at a super high level. They covered up warts. If the Giants signed two stud FA OL it doesn't ensure jack shit that the offense elevates to an even higher level in 2016.

And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.



100% agree. A big reason for the stats was circumstance. First off, the other teams defense was on the field all game because our defense gave up a score on an average of 3.5 plays per drive(not a real stat FWIW). Teams laid back because they had leads and because they knew our defense wasn't stopping anyone, but like you said, when we had to score....we couldn't.


The Giants defense sucked slowly in 2015. They were 26th in defensive ToP, giving up brutally long drives on the regular.

Also, this myth of the team constantly having to play catch up that year is tiring. How exactly do people think they gave up so many last second game -winning drives? Other than the thwarted Carolina comeback, most of the games were tight. Garbage time wasn't a big thing by any measure.
Reese  
WillVAB : 3/22/2017 3:44 pm : link
Has stated plenty of times that the goal is to use FA to plug holes and the draft to find talent. I think '16 and FA in '17 he's excelled at both.

Saying Reese should've went after OL in '16 is empty MMQB garbage. The defensive additions turned the defense from historically bad to arguably the best by the end of the season last year. The big 3 gave this team an identity, something it hasn't had in a long time.

There's no guarantee OL additions last year would've improved the team's performance in '16 if you subtract the defensive additions. Smart money is on the team performs substantially worse, and we'd have holes all over the roster right now with very little vision on the direction of the team.

As constructed, this team is built to win now with an elite defense and talent on offense. Solidify the OL, find another offensive weapon, and add to the D via the draft and this team is set for a run or two.
I also think its fair to say  
Keith : 3/22/2017 3:52 pm : link
that Reese expected his 9 overall 2nd year LT to progress.
this might warrant its own thread  
djm : 3/22/2017 3:57 pm : link
it's either hilarious or interesting.

Francesser just said his understanding is the Giants plan to play Fluker at Right Tackle. He said this on two or three occasions.

Like I said, hilarious or interesting. Take your pick. We all read last week that Fluke would play or compete at guard.
Mike also  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 3:58 pm : link
said "trust me, the Giants aren't playing Flowers at LT anymore"
Sounds like were getting a whole bunch of "alternative facts"  
Glover : 3/22/2017 3:59 pm : link
regarding the Giants O line last season. They run blocked wasnt that bad, but they were 29th in rushing. Flowers has great feet, he just didnt use them.
Or if you read the whole thing  
Keith : 3/22/2017 4:00 pm : link
you will see the biggest reason why the giants were the worst ranked rushing offense.....Jennings.
RE: Mike also  
djm : 3/22/2017 4:01 pm : link
In comment 13403014 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
said "trust me, the Giants aren't playing Flowers at LT anymore"


Lol yes he did. Now he's back tracking on that and saying the Giants likely have a backup plan to Flowers at LT.

Mike says things...
How did our running game stack up over the last 5 games  
David in LA : 3/22/2017 4:02 pm : link
compared to the rest of the league. I'd venture to guess it's not 29th.
Other than Pugh and Richburg,  
Keith : 3/22/2017 4:02 pm : link
I don't think even the Giants know how everything else will shake out.
he actually (finally) defended the LT situation  
djm : 3/22/2017 4:05 pm : link
in FA by saying that Witworth was the only viable LT going and he's 36 with a big pay day to boot. Last week he wasn't saying that at all. He was killing the Giants for not signing a LT in FA. Someone that he listens to must have clued him in.

Fluker at RT does make a lot of sense. HE played better that then at guard and the Giants have two starters, albeit Jerry is shaky at run blocking.

Man, how nice it would be if Fluker solidified RT and the Giants landed a plug and play guard in round 2 or 3. Now you're talking. Jerry moves to the bench as depth and away we go. Probably a pipe dream to put that much faith in Fluker but the plug and play guard thing could happen.
Mike moves  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 4:08 pm : link
the needle on a daily basis...that's his job. Nobody should take him seriously as an evaluator of NFL talent.
RE: Other than Pugh and Richburg,  
Go Terps : 3/22/2017 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13403024 Keith said:
Quote:
I don't think even the Giants know how everything else will shake out.


THAT is the fucking point.

They had ridiculous cap space before the 2016 season, and the offensive line is still an enormous question mark.

And did I just see Vernon mentioned in the same sentence as Reggie White? It's amazing that the people saying this stupid shit have the balls to take personal shots at anybody.
I'm interested to see how this plays out this season  
micky : 3/22/2017 4:15 pm : link
.....
GT are you purposefully dense? That's not what Keith was saying.  
David in LA : 3/22/2017 4:20 pm : link
.
First off, going into 2016  
Keith : 3/22/2017 4:21 pm : link
the Giants had every right to think EF was their LT. He was the 9 overall pick going into his 2nd season.

I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.

All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.
The tackle play absolutely had a very strong case for NFL worst.  
Devon : 3/22/2017 4:29 pm : link
Eli did not mitigate it well and deserves criticism for not stepping up the way the team clearly expected him/needed him to, but if you're giving up the number of pressures Flowers and the RT duo did while your QB is getting the ball out quicker than all but one other QB in the NFL, you flat out suck.

If you want to defend the interior's pass blocking, that's an entirely separate story.
RE: First off, going into 2016  
Go Terps : 3/22/2017 4:30 pm : link
In comment 13403071 Keith said:
Quote:
the Giants had every right to think EF was their LT. He was the 9 overall pick going into his 2nd season.

I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.

All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.


They're not just hoping with Flowers. They're hoping with Richburg, Fluker, and Jerry. They're also hoping that Pugh stays healthy. That's a lot of hoping.

If you're going to blame Eli and Jennings (and I was never a Jennings fan) for the line's performance last year then you and I saw two different things. I've linked cnewk's Perkins thread after the Pittsburgh game below. It's obviously only a few moments from one game, but the pictures don't paint a pretty picture of the OL's performance.
Link - ( New Window )
Devon  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 4:31 pm : link
there was plenty of games where Eli had clean pockets throughout last season.
I'm not really defending the pass blocking at all  
Keith : 3/22/2017 4:31 pm : link
as I've stated on this very thread that they were bad. I am however going to defend their run blocking which was suffice. I think there is a good chance they are better than average in that dept this upcoming season.
GT  
ryanmkeane : 3/22/2017 4:32 pm : link
we aren't "blaming Eli and Jennings" for the poor play. You do understand that it can be a combination of everything right? Jennings sucks. Eli wasn't that good at times. And the OL was extremely inconsistent. This is what most everyone is saying. What is so hard about this?
RE: Devon  
Devon : 3/22/2017 4:34 pm : link
In comment 13403096 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
there was plenty of games where Eli had clean pockets throughout last season.


Yep, the pressure numbers were just made up and the tackle play was just bad occasionally.

Tell yourself whatever you need to.
I am not blaming Eli and Jennings.  
Keith : 3/22/2017 4:35 pm : link
I clearly stated that Jennings was the biggest issue with the league worst rushing attack, not that he was the only issue. I am also not blaming Eli, I'm just saying that he played a role as well. His pocket presence was terrible and he def had happy feet.
Oline  
Big_Pete : 3/22/2017 4:47 pm : link
I would not say our Oline was great last year. It was certainly part of the problem but certainly not the entire story.

I don't buy the yards per carry argument in isolation. You have to remember over the latter half the season teams were blanketing Beckham with Man Cover 2 giving us favourable running situations which we were unable to execute consistently.

Much of our Oline is young and we can reasonably expect them to improve. We need to remember that cohesion of continuity is important.
Big Pete, OBJ was getting the double safety look all season  
David in LA : 3/22/2017 4:49 pm : link
IMO, you can make a very good argument that the talent at RB was a big contributor to our toothless running game.
Yeah the way defenses played us  
Keith : 3/22/2017 4:50 pm : link
never changed. The only thing that changed was the RB.
There are so many factors contributing to why they could not  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/22/2017 4:54 pm : link
Field a running game. It's not all one thing or the other thing.

It's line blocking. It's backs and receivers blocking. It's TE blocking. It's RB talent. It's lack of passing offense performance.

Laying it ALL on the offensive line ignores a lot of other issues, and how the Giants attacked free agency on offense indicates this.
RE: RE: First off, going into 2016  
gmen9892 : 3/22/2017 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13403094 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13403071 Keith said:


Quote:


the Giants had every right to think EF was their LT. He was the 9 overall pick going into his 2nd season.

I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.

All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.



They're not just hoping with Flowers. They're hoping with Richburg, Fluker, and Jerry. They're also hoping that Pugh stays healthy. That's a lot of hoping.

If you're going to blame Eli and Jennings (and I was never a Jennings fan) for the line's performance last year then you and I saw two different things. I've linked cnewk's Perkins thread after the Pittsburgh game below. It's obviously only a few moments from one game, but the pictures don't paint a pretty picture of the OL's performance. Link - ( New Window )


I wouldnt say they are "hoping" on Richburg. While he did not take the step up that most expected here last year, he was still a top half C in the league. Expecting progress out of your 4th year center (who is one of the better athletes at his position) is not really asking for a lot.
In defense of the OL ...  
Spider56 : 3/22/2017 5:00 pm : link
A good running attack (meaning you pick up yards when you need them ...short yardage, goal line, killing the clock, etc) MUST HAVE a good blocking TE and / or FB to be effective and consistent. Last year we didn't have a FB and neither Tye nor Donnell can block worth a lick ... Hopefully Ellison will fix this problem.
What site was it that posted all those videos  
Rflairr : 3/22/2017 5:10 pm : link
of the OL creating big holes and Jennings going the opposite way? or totally missing it? I think the coaches need to do a better job, but getting a RB with better vision will help as well
The running game was awful  
Vanzetti : 3/22/2017 5:23 pm : link
sorry, i did not read through all the posts and we have a lot of clever people on here who can make plausible cases for just about anything.

But sometimes you just have to look at the obvious. The running game absolutely sucked.
Whats the point of commenting if you clearly  
Keith : 3/22/2017 5:45 pm : link
read nothing on the thread. You see the words OL and running and you jump right in. It's lazy and pointless. Everyone is aware that the running game wasn't good. However, there are reasons why and this thread is discussing those reasons.
11 rushing TD's past two seasons  
rocco8112 : 3/22/2017 5:53 pm : link
Pathetic.

Very happy Jennings is gone. Perkins looks like the second coming to many because he looks like he belongs on an NFL field and no Giants fans are used to seeing that because we have been treated to Jennings for the past few seasons. In my opinion he did nothing well as a back and is one of the worst starting RB's in the NFL. His cut is addition by subtraction. He had no physicality or tackle breaking, he looked like he was running through water, he had no shake and bake and (although it is one play) that .gif shows he has a vision problem as well.

Very happy he is gone.

There is no doubt the O line is a problem too. But, its shortcomings were made worse by the Giants fielding one of the worst RB and TE corps in the league.
The running game improved a lot when Perkins started getting more  
PatersonPlank : 3/22/2017 5:56 pm : link
touches. Sometimes its the line, sometimes its the RB. Jennings had just become too much of a plodder. With Fluker, Ellison, and possibly another high draft pick, I am very hopeful about our running game.
Please  
jeff57 : 3/22/2017 6:07 pm : link
The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years
RE: Please  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 6:10 pm : link
In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:
Quote:
The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years


Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
RE: RE: Please  
jeff57 : 3/22/2017 6:17 pm : link
In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:


Quote:


The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years



Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.

Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.
RE: RE: Please  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/22/2017 6:17 pm : link
In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.


And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
RE: 11 rushing TD's past two seasons  
Keith : 3/22/2017 6:18 pm : link
In comment 13403237 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
Pathetic.

Very happy Jennings is gone. Perkins looks like the second coming to many because he looks like he belongs on an NFL field and no Giants fans are used to seeing that because we have been treated to Jennings for the past few seasons. In my opinion he did nothing well as a back and is one of the worst starting RB's in the NFL. His cut is addition by subtraction. He had no physicality or tackle breaking, he looked like he was running through water, he had no shake and bake and (although it is one play) that .gif shows he has a vision problem as well.

Very happy he is gone.

There is no doubt the O line is a problem too. But, its shortcomings were made worse by the Giants fielding one of the worst RB and TE corps in the league.


Mostly agree. Jennings was a good blocker, which every head coach needs. The last line pretty much sums it up. Maybe if we were playing a game of semantics I could say that the OL isn't necessary a problem, but it's not one of our strengths. 4.5 YPC is respectable and that was with a rookie RB and no TE.
RE: RE: RE: Please  
Keith : 3/22/2017 6:20 pm : link
In comment 13403257 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:


Quote:


The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years



Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.


Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.


Yes, he average 4.1 yards, but dig a little deeper. He was getting 5-7 rushes per game for the majority of the season. MacAdoo finally let him split the carries with 5 games left and he started to get 15+ carries per game. In the last 5 games, he average 4.5 YPC.
RE: RE: RE: Please  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 6:30 pm : link
In comment 13403257 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:


Quote:


The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years



Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.


Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.


3.3 YPC is atrocious, do we just ignore that? And Perkins did have less carries but his last 3 games he averaged 15 carries at 4.8 per clip, should we ignore that too?
RE: RE: RE: Please  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 6:35 pm : link
In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.



And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.


Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.

BBI could f up a wet dream.
RE: RE: RE: Please  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/22/2017 6:45 pm : link
In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.



And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.


And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Please  
adamg : 3/22/2017 6:46 pm : link
In comment 13403275 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.



And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.



Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.

BBI could f up a wet dream.


The load was way too small! Oh!

RE: RE: RE: RE: Please  
Go Terps : 3/22/2017 6:47 pm : link
In comment 13403275 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.



And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.



Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.

BBI could f up a wet dream.


Your only notable contribution on this discussion is blowjobs and wet dreams. Well done.

If you consider this offensive line the quality equivalent of a blowjob then you need to have a serious conversation with whomever it is that is blowing you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Please  
UConn4523 : 3/22/2017 6:51 pm : link
In comment 13403283 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.



And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.



And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.


At what point is it on the players and coaches? There's blame at all levels but they can't just put everything towards the OL despite their already large investments via the draft.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Please  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 7:03 pm : link
In comment 13403288 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13403275 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.



And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.



Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.

BBI could f up a wet dream.



Your only notable contribution on this discussion is blowjobs and wet dreams. Well done.

If you consider this offensive line the quality equivalent of a blowjob then you need to have a serious conversation with whomever it is that is blowing you.


Would you stop already? Where did I compare the OL to a BJ?

At this point, you're making stuff up.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Please  
drkenneth : 3/22/2017 7:08 pm : link
In comment 13403283 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.



And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.



And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.


Yes, Dave. I get that. The OL has been an issue for some time. That is not what I'm debating.....Nevermind.
Go Terps will see two words in the same paragraph  
David in LA : 3/22/2017 7:14 pm : link
and make the accusation that you're making a comparison between the two, without really reading what was said. For example, the analogy that signing OV and Snacks had a Reggie White like impact on the DL...OMG are you really comparing them to Reggie White?
'was not that bad'...  
Torrag : 3/22/2017 9:45 pm : link
...damned with faint praise.
OL  
Big_Pete : 3/22/2017 9:53 pm : link

I guess the real issue is what kind of running game can we expect this year.

We do need improved play from our Oline, while there are several areas that need to be improve, we do have a solid base to build on.

We do have a good core of young players who we can expect to continue to develop. We do have a lot of continuity which is a definite advantage.

We also have a year of experience with Mike Solari's coaching with his particular style of Oline play.

As things are situated at the moment, we have pretty much the same group as last year, with DJ Fluker effectively replacing Newhouse and Beatty which is an upgrade plus imho. Plus we have the draft where I would expect to add more Oline talent, particularly if you look at the prospects the Giants have shown interest in.

I am reasonably confident that we will have much improved OL play and when you factor in changes at the skill position, we should have a dramatically improved ground game.
...  
christian : 3/22/2017 10:19 pm : link
I think it's pretty well founded the aggregate impact of point differential of Vernon vs the cost equivalent OL favors Vernon. I'd argue that for Jenkins and Harrison. After this year I'll weigh in on Pierre Paul.


Point being if the investment is to increase points gained and decrease points allowed, the free agent investment last year for the year and the next 2 looks good.
Terps  
djm : 3/22/2017 10:28 pm : link
You're also making shit up in my posts. I never once compared Vernon to white I said the signings of Vernon and snacks ( I forgot to include Jenkins) had a (FA) Reggie white like inpact on this team. That's the truth. Last year's FA foray by the Giants was amazing. You're literally the only one still bitching about it. I also never personally attacked you in these posts. I once asked if you were mad (crazy mad not mad mad) but that was rhetorical. I know you're crazy.

But keep on twisting irrelevant lines or snippets from this debate to deflect. Because the entire point of this is to fight over whether Vernon and snacks were as inpactful as reggie white. Cmon man. Who cares? My point was they had a huge impact here in year one. Huge. And you damn well know it. Everyone does.
And I'm kidding about calling you crazy  
djm : 3/22/2017 10:31 pm : link
Don't wanna get banned for saying something relatively innocuous. This place has been funny lately. By funny I mean ridiculous.
you're making the same mistake the FO did  
gmenatlarge : 3/23/2017 6:56 am : link
in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.
RE: you're making the same mistake the FO did  
Keith : 3/23/2017 9:33 am : link
In comment 13403561 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.


Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.
RE: RE: A good RB makes people miss, I'm not sure what your point is.  
Jersey55 : 3/23/2017 10:17 am : link
In comment 13402835 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13402823 Keith said:


Quote:


Every RB has to make people miss, Jennings cannot. The Giants running game was pretty good when Perkins took over, when Perkins played.

In the last 5 games when they split evenly:

Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC

Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).



The point is that Perkins should be making people miss at the linebacker level, not in the backfield.


agreed, not much any RB can do when he is being chased in the backfield..
so darn hard to make definitive judgements about anything....  
grizz299 : 3/24/2017 4:56 am : link

The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".
RE: RE: you're making the same mistake the FO did  
gmenatlarge : 3/24/2017 9:21 am : link
In comment 13403636 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13403561 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.



Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.

don't quite get your response, this was about the O-line, am I right!
RE: so darn hard to make definitive judgements about anything....  
Devon : 3/24/2017 10:42 am : link
In comment 13404638 grizz299 said:
Quote:

The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".


Almost every team they played last season featured the Cover 2 of Death against them.

The Browns definitely weren't the ones to alert the league of anything. Word was out well before then.
RE: RE: RE: you're making the same mistake the FO did  
Keith : 3/24/2017 10:49 am : link
In comment 13404723 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 13403636 Keith said:


Quote:


In comment 13403561 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.



Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.


don't quite get your response, this was about the O-line, am I right!


Not quite. It's specifically about the run blocking and the running game. The OL is not good, nobody on this whole thread said they were. Regarding the running game, Jennings was a bigger problem than the line. Perkins had success with the same line. I expect the running game to improve this year with Perkins, a blocking TE, a good blocking/weapon at WR, upgrades to the run blocking OL.
RE: so darn hard to make definitive judgements about anything....  
Keith : 3/24/2017 10:51 am : link
In comment 13404638 grizz299 said:
Quote:

The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".


Wait, you think week 11 was when teams realized this and changed how they played us?
wake up Sheeple  
idiotsavant : 3/24/2017 11:15 am : link
in fact, get woke and stay woke.

6 rushing TDs, least a.k.a. last in the league,

and about 10 less rushing first downs as opposed to average opponent if I read that correctly.

if not for the big DL, we could have had an UGLY year
Who are you waking up?  
Keith : 3/24/2017 11:21 am : link
We had a bad rushing attack last year, but this thread is to discuss why? How much of that is on the OL, how much is on Jennings? How much is on the TE? It's my believe that the majority of the blame is on Jennings. Not all, but the majority. With improvements in all of the other aspects and Jennings gone, I believe we will have a better season running the ball.
maddafac for all you who always praise the coaching  
idiotsavant : 3/24/2017 11:28 am : link
if the line was ok at run blocking, don't you think that they could have found a decent runner somewhere to get a few yards here and there?

or - are you suggesting that the team find a great RB who can get yards even when the blocking breaks down?

and what then, if that one person gets injured?


comparing cost value to any DL vs Ol, silly, that's not really doable. it appears like just another in a long list of excuses not to mock draft OL such as guards
Well if you actually read the thread  
Keith : 3/24/2017 11:30 am : link
you will see that we did have success when Perkins took over the last 5 games. Once Perkins got 15+ touches per game, he was averaging 4.5 yards per carry.
true, if its outside zone or what have you  
idiotsavant : 3/24/2017 11:31 am : link
the new TE will help, even the big WR.

But, the rhetorical lengths people seem to go to in order to avoid drafting the very best guards and big centers, amazing.
While I agree that Jennings was one of the biggest problems  
Matt M. : 3/24/2017 4:20 pm : link
with the running game and I also agree that Perkins was more than decent behind the same line, I don't agree with the rest of the logic. We still had 2 putrid OL and we didn't control the LOS in either the pass game or run game. What I have a bigger problem with is the stated philosophy to control the game with the run and only pass when we have to. Whether you think the running game wasn't as bad as it is being out to be or not, it clearly was not and is not the strength of this team. On offense, you have a dynamic WR and excellent QB and you added a solid WR, along with Shepard (and Perkins and Vereen in the pass game). That is the strength of this team and that is where the points will come from. The running game simply has to do a better job of keeping teams honest.
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