It was briefly discussed in another thread, but I keep reading it, whether it's fans or people in the media. The OL was not the biggest problem last year, Rashad Jennings was. In fact, the line was solid in that department. I really like Jennings as a person, but he was putrid last year. The OL created some holes and Jennings danced until they were closed.
My point of this thread is that I expect the offense to be much, much better with Perkins, let alone the upgrades we've added to help.
To me, YPC is a great indicator of success and Jennings was at 3.3 YPC. He was the worst RB in football in YPC. Paul Perkins however was somewhere in the middle of the pack at 4.1 YPC and that was in his rookie season. When Paul Perkins saw his rushes double in the last 5 games of the season, he averaged 4.5 YPC. That's a very respectable number over the last 5 games of the season.
Fast forward to 2017 and Perkins is a year older and has some experience. We added a TE that can block when all of last year we had some of the worst blocked TE's that I've ever seen. We upgraded the line. We added a threat at WR that needs to be accounted for who is also a very good run blocking WR.
Translation: Settle down. We are going to run the ball this season and the offense will be much improved. Control the ball with the running game, let Eli throw it when he has to and let the defense dominate, that's the recipe.
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WHile I don't want to spend a lot of time defending Jennings, I think a lot of people are making a full season's worth of judgments on the guy based on those nine seconds.
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... Link - ( New Window )
WHile I don't want to spend a lot of time defending Jennings, I think a lot of people are making a full season's worth of judgments on the guy based on those nine seconds.
So how do you explain his 3.3 YPC vs 4.5 YPC for Perkins when he got 15 carries per game?
I love the guy as a person and really wanted NYG to sign him but he was bad in 2016. This isn't a great OL by any stretch but better RB's will be able to run well enough behind it to help the offense along.
Our TEs inability to block even a tackling dummy is another huge factor why our run blocking mostly sucked the last couple seasons
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with that.
Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.
Anyway, we didnt have any backs or TEs who could block or catch. Jennings took a million years to find a hole and was slow.
Beckham and Shepard were the only receivers who could constantly win a one on one matchup.
Even Marshall will add to the run game.
Watch the improvement with upgraded skill positions. Eli will once again trust what he's seeing and the whole unit will improve.
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top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).
Good luck with that.
Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.
I'm sure whatever solution we find here on BBI will truly have an impact on what the Giants do or don't do, so it's important to project our own thoughts as the clear recipe the team is banking on.
It's not entirely on the OL, but it's not 100% Jennings either. Come on - you watched the games, there were plays upon plays where some DL was right there to almost take the handoff.
Clearly Perkins is quicker and more elusive than Jennings, which helped him a ton... but the OL needs to play better too.
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.
What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:
A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.
My standards certainly haven't dropped.
In the last 5 games when they split evenly:
Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC
Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).
Shepard worked in the slot.
Cruz couldnt beat anyone.
King didnt come on until the last 2 games.
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Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.
What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:
A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.
My standards certainly haven't dropped.
I don't know about the patience aspect with regards to this line. There's something amiss with this team and its ability to put together an offensive line. Two first round picks spent on left tackles in four drafts, and neither appears able to play left tackle. Richburg's regression in 2017. It is also important to point out that Jerry and Newhouse were supposed to be, ideally, depth. Yet they were starters.
What's going on with the offensive line? What's the plan going forward? Is there a plan?
Run blocking-average
This year, they will be much improved with Marshall, Ellison, Fluker and Perkins.
In the last 5 games when they split evenly:
Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC
Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).
The point is that Perkins should be making people miss at the linebacker level, not in the backfield.
Flowers, Richburg and Hart can all still be major factors here.
Like him or not you can do alot worse than Jerry at RG.
Fluker can just easily surprise all the naysayers and next year half of this board would be calling for Reese's head that he didnt lock him up longer than 1 year. Remember Martellus Bennett? Sometimes that happens in this league.
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In comment 13402803 Go Terps said:
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Perkins had some big runs that started with him avoiding someone in the backfield.
It would take some significant analysis of the data to back up any assertion one way or the other, but to my eye opponents did not respect our ability to dominate the point of attack. There was frequently interior penetration that resulted in runs being altered or stopped short entirely, and just as troubling was that this was not accomplished with the help of an extra defender in the box. We were limited in our ability to throw the ball deep as a result.
I wonder if as fans our standards for what constitutes a quality offensive line have dropped. We haven't had a good one since '07-'08.
I think the fans understand that this OL hasn't been good. It's been discussed over and over.
What fans/BBI seem to struggle with:
A- It's not 1990 anymore. The quality of play around the league has dropped (lack of practice time, less time to develop players)
2- OL play/lack of talent is an issue all over the league. Look at Indy, Denver, Seattle, etc. Look at the OL free agents this year
C- They have no patience. If you don't play like Ogden as a rookie, you are the worst player ever.
My standards certainly haven't dropped.
I don't know about the patience aspect with regards to this line. There's something amiss with this team and its ability to put together an offensive line. Two first round picks spent on left tackles in four drafts, and neither appears able to play left tackle. Richburg's regression in 2017. It is also important to point out that Jerry and Newhouse were supposed to be, ideally, depth. Yet they were starters.
What's going on with the offensive line? What's the plan going forward? Is there a plan?
LTs are hard to find. This isn't that difficult. We've heard Richburg was hurt last year (of you believe that), and again- OL talent is scarce across the league.
Solari is widely respected OL coach. The plan is to win a Super Bowl...People here act like there is some grand conspiracy to piss BBI off.
I'm not defending the OL play, I'm simply tired over going over the same shit over and over. Half the league (at least) is looking for OL talent.
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In comment 13402806 Devon said:
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top money and the formula is to cling to five games of an awakened run game where they scored 14, 10, 17, 19, and 19 points and that holding as many one score leads late in low scoring games as they did overall last season is repeatable (it's usually not, FYI).
Good luck with that.
Pretty easy for anyone to spot problems and complain about them. A lot tougher to offer up a solution.
I'm sure whatever solution we find here on BBI will truly have an impact on what the Giants do or don't do, so it's important to project our own thoughts as the clear recipe the team is banking on.
I haven't seen you project one thought on a solution.
I realize management isn't coming here for solutions but just pointing out what's wrong isn't exactly ground breaking. Anyone could do that.
How about enlightening us with some of your knowledge on how to go about fixing what's wrong?
GoTerps OL:
Jesus-Bill Bellicheck-Zuess-Russ Grimm-Abraham Lincoln
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
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How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
It's the opposite of what actually happens. Don't you know that?
Giants spend $$$ to make a dominate D....Terps goes into his bag of tricks for "The time to spend on the OL was last year" tip.
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In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:
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How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Are we sure about this? (Serious question)
BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.
I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.
Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.
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In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:
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In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:
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How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Are we sure about this? (Serious question)
BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.
I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.
Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.
And some on BBI tend to overrate it's own. We've seen that a ton. The first SB was 10 years ago. This is also a completely different team. Hell, it almost a completely different team from 2011.
And Eli didn't mitigate the terrible tackle play in 2017 like he has at times in the past, he didn't step up like they expected/needed him to, but he also didn't for a second make that OL look worse either. Getting the ball out as quickly as he did and his sack avoidance trait seems to actually have given Flowers and the RT situation, at least, more shelter than they deserve from at least some of you.
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.
So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).
That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...
2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense
That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.
The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.
We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.
That's a lot of faith.
Tackle to tackle is far from perfect but TE was dreadful last year. Not sub par, dreadful. If they can draft a play maker on offense early that can virtually step in day one the offense will see significant upgrades at 3 positions before we even discuss the overall growth of the holdovers.
Every other call into WFAN says the Giants did nothing about their shitty OL. False. We added a B+ blocker to a position that gave us F- blocking in 2016.
I am forgetting some but those stick out.
I think the Giants are closer to middle of the road than dead last, and that's including the 2016 season.
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just because that plan isn't what you would do?
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.
So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).
That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...
2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense
That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.
The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.
We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.
That's a lot of faith.
Yep. And people keep saying the same thing every year re: Oline, and thus far for the past number of years now, it hasn't worked out. I hope this is the year, but I'm not betting anything on it. Always best to sit back and wait and see.