It was briefly discussed in another thread, but I keep reading it, whether it's fans or people in the media. The OL was not the biggest problem last year, Rashad Jennings was. In fact, the line was solid in that department. I really like Jennings as a person, but he was putrid last year. The OL created some holes and Jennings danced until they were closed.
My point of this thread is that I expect the offense to be much, much better with Perkins, let alone the upgrades we've added to help.
To me, YPC is a great indicator of success and Jennings was at 3.3 YPC. He was the worst RB in football in YPC. Paul Perkins however was somewhere in the middle of the pack at 4.1 YPC and that was in his rookie season. When Paul Perkins saw his rushes double in the last 5 games of the season, he averaged 4.5 YPC. That's a very respectable number over the last 5 games of the season.
Fast forward to 2017 and Perkins is a year older and has some experience. We added a TE that can block when all of last year we had some of the worst blocked TE's that I've ever seen. We upgraded the line. We added a threat at WR that needs to be accounted for who is also a very good run blocking WR.
Translation: Settle down. We are going to run the ball this season and the offense will be much improved. Control the ball with the running game, let Eli throw it when he has to and let the defense dominate, that's the recipe.
Quote:
just because that plan isn't what you would do?
Its fucking hard, look around the league, tons of bad lines. The plan going into this offseason is pretty clear to me; finally get a FB and find a bargain to insert on the right side who has upside. Marshall I think was something that fell into our laps but hey, we deserve some luck on that front.
GT - you mentioned last year during the big spending spree that in 2017 they should double down and continue to make Defense a priority, trying to make it an elite unit that teams fear rather than trying to balance the roster...so which is it?
Yeah it's hard, but the planets aligned for us after the 2015 season. We had the makings of a good offense and a ton of cap space. There were two top shelf offensive linemen on the market. THAT was the time to spend big on the offensive line. We didn't. We spent big on defense, and this went from being an offensive team in 2015 to a defensive team in 2016.
So here we are with some more cap space after 2016, my thought process was the same as the year prior: make the strongest part of the team stronger. We didn't do that: we'll be entering 2017 with basically the same defense (possibly minus Hankins).
That's why I say the Giants don't have a plan: they react...
2015: Offense is good, defense sucks...so spend on the defense
2016: Defense is good, offense sucks...so spend on the offense
That has been this team for years, and it's why we've hovered around the middle of the pack, and why our Super Bowls were lightning in a bottle instead of the result of any actual excellence.
The Giants could be good this year, but there are very realistic scenarios that don't involve an injury to Eli where they go 6-10. I could see the defense taking a step back and the offensive line continuing to struggle.
We spent all this money over the last two years and STILL we are taking it on faith that the offensive line will gel, that Flowers will get his shit together, that Richburg's 2016 was an anomaly, that Pugh will stay healthy, that Fluker will perform at RT, that Jerry won't completely suck again.
That's a lot of faith.
Name a team other than the Patriots that routinely has a plan that they never divert from regardless of draft busts, injuries, etc. The Packers? Am I forgetting anyone else? Now that Seattle has to pay people, they will go right back with the rest of the pack so its certainly not them.
As for our defense, experience can help make them better and if we keep Hankins, its invaluable. Just because we didn't add Logan doesn't mean we can't improve with the players we have now and possibly a game changer at #23.
Oh, and you said the Giants react. That they spent more on offense this off-season than on defense. This is flat out false. They spent a lot more on D this off-season. But in your world re-signing your own productive DE is a bad thing so I guess that move doesn't count? What about Robinson's contract? Or Wynn's?
Also, like I said, we did in fact address the run and pass blocking by signing the best available blocking TE. Again, this must not register since people don't seem to correlate blocking TE with OL play.
You are literally the only person on Earth that has a problem with the DL FA signings from 2016. Vernon and snacks have had a Reggie White type impact on this defense--seemingly overnight. Lol...terps is there lurking....questioning....annoyed. Love it.
Would getting Whitworth mean the Giants "have a plan"?
-terps
That offense couldn't run when needed. And it couldn't win a game when the HC's football life depended on it. That's some offense. Also, didn't the Giants draft a WR in the 2016 off-season? Didn't they have a second year LT? A 3rd year LG? A young TE in Donnell that they liked? Yes to all. They didn't ignore the offense. They chose to address the most embarrassing NYG defense to come along in over 40 years! And they crushed FA on a level not seen in NY football, ever.
I bet Terps hates blowjobs.
That offense couldn't run when needed. And it couldn't win a game when the HC's football life depended on it. That's some offense. Also, didn't the Giants draft a WR in the 2016 off-season? Didn't they have a second year LT? A 3rd year LG? A young TE in Donnell that they liked? Yes to all. They didn't ignore the offense. They chose to address the most embarrassing NYG defense to come along in over 40 years! And they crushed FA on a level not seen in NY football, ever.
Mostly agree. We scored a ton and passed a ton because we had to. Our defense couldn't stop anyone and the other team knew that also. I think a big factor was that teams didn't know how to slow down OBJ also. That changed in 2016.
Let's not even bring up how the Giants saw the rising tide of economics coming in and got ahead of the madness when they "overpaid" for prime grade A cuts of FA meat. How do those contracts look now after seeing MAtt fucking Khali sign for FIFTY FIVE million! FIFTY FIVE! This guy didn't even play last year! How does Vernon's deal look now? Ask Dallas or Wash if they are happy the Giants "reacted."
The Giants haven't always done the smart pro-active thing in FA or in general but 2016 could and should go down as a watershed moment in this tean's FA history. They stole those guys. Absolutely stole them.
Quote:
In comment 13402867 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13402865 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13402858 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
How many years has it been now since we've had just a good OLine? Fans have been plenty 'patient' with the OLine. Not like this was the first year we had a bad OLine. They were just alittle worse than usual.
I hear you. Things went off a cliff in 2012/13.
Again- Look at the OL situation around the league. What do you think the Colts fans are saying?
People here act like 31 teams are fielding dominate OLs and the Giants are just incompetent.
Of course other teams around the league have bad OLines. Anyone who believes differently is a bit delusional. But not all of those teams have been waiting for as long as we have to just field a good OLine. Maybe some of them have been in the same boat as us for awhile now, but it's not the norm to have a bad OLine for years and years.
Are we sure about this? (Serious question)
BBI tends to overrate the quality of play across the league.
I tend to be more lenient based on the, you know- The Super Bowl wins and all.
Bottom line for me: Get Eli #3 and nobody will give a fuck how bad the OL was.
And some on BBI tend to overrate it's own. We've seen that a ton. The first SB was 10 years ago. This is also a completely different team. Hell, it almost a completely different team from 2011.
"The first SB was 10 years ago."
and the last was 6 years ago....Talk about spoiled.
Maybe I'm getting older (40 this year), but I tend look at bigger picture now..I just don't get the constant bitching about everything.
And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.
And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.
100% agree. A big reason for the stats was circumstance. First off, the other teams defense was on the field all game because our defense gave up a score on an average of 3.5 plays per drive(not a real stat FWIW). Teams laid back because they had leads and because they knew our defense wasn't stopping anyone, but like you said, when we had to score....we couldn't.
I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.
I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.
Njoku-OL would be dynamite for the first 2 picks. How could BBI not be happy with that?
They are still in fine shape financially where they can re-sign most of their own guys. The Giants were primed to be a good relevant team for 3-4-5 years once they put together that FA class and 2016 draft. That took planning.
Quote:
I really want an athletic stretch the field TE. More so than the RB. I just think the kid from Miami makes so much sense. NYG loves those Miami Canes.
Njoku-OL would be dynamite for the first 2 picks. How could BBI not be happy with that?
I'd be thrilled with that. Then grab RB CB in the mid rounds. Should be good ones left as the draft is deep there.
Quote:
I don't want to kill the 2015 offense too much but I have to when I hear people wax poetic about it. Yes it could score at times. Yes it piled up some numbers and not all of them in garbage time, but they didn't win and they had still had holes all over the unit. RB, TE, OL and WRs were all weak. Eli and Beckham played at a super high level. They covered up warts. If the Giants signed two stud FA OL it doesn't ensure jack shit that the offense elevates to an even higher level in 2016.
And let's not even get into that we don't even know if these so called cure all FA OL from 2016 even WANT to sign here! I love that part. FA? No problem. Get him.
100% agree. A big reason for the stats was circumstance. First off, the other teams defense was on the field all game because our defense gave up a score on an average of 3.5 plays per drive(not a real stat FWIW). Teams laid back because they had leads and because they knew our defense wasn't stopping anyone, but like you said, when we had to score....we couldn't.
The Giants defense sucked slowly in 2015. They were 26th in defensive ToP, giving up brutally long drives on the regular.
Also, this myth of the team constantly having to play catch up that year is tiring. How exactly do people think they gave up so many last second game -winning drives? Other than the thwarted Carolina comeback, most of the games were tight. Garbage time wasn't a big thing by any measure.
Saying Reese should've went after OL in '16 is empty MMQB garbage. The defensive additions turned the defense from historically bad to arguably the best by the end of the season last year. The big 3 gave this team an identity, something it hasn't had in a long time.
There's no guarantee OL additions last year would've improved the team's performance in '16 if you subtract the defensive additions. Smart money is on the team performs substantially worse, and we'd have holes all over the roster right now with very little vision on the direction of the team.
As constructed, this team is built to win now with an elite defense and talent on offense. Solidify the OL, find another offensive weapon, and add to the D via the draft and this team is set for a run or two.
Francesser just said his understanding is the Giants plan to play Fluker at Right Tackle. He said this on two or three occasions.
Like I said, hilarious or interesting. Take your pick. We all read last week that Fluke would play or compete at guard.
Lol yes he did. Now he's back tracking on that and saying the Giants likely have a backup plan to Flowers at LT.
Mike says things...
Fluker at RT does make a lot of sense. HE played better that then at guard and the Giants have two starters, albeit Jerry is shaky at run blocking.
Man, how nice it would be if Fluker solidified RT and the Giants landed a plug and play guard in round 2 or 3. Now you're talking. Jerry moves to the bench as depth and away we go. Probably a pipe dream to put that much faith in Fluker but the plug and play guard thing could happen.
THAT is the fucking point.
They had ridiculous cap space before the 2016 season, and the offensive line is still an enormous question mark.
And did I just see Vernon mentioned in the same sentence as Reggie White? It's amazing that the people saying this stupid shit have the balls to take personal shots at anybody.
I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.
All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.
If you want to defend the interior's pass blocking, that's an entirely separate story.
I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.
All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.
They're not just hoping with Flowers. They're hoping with Richburg, Fluker, and Jerry. They're also hoping that Pugh stays healthy. That's a lot of hoping.
If you're going to blame Eli and Jennings (and I was never a Jennings fan) for the line's performance last year then you and I saw two different things. I've linked cnewk's Perkins thread after the Pittsburgh game below. It's obviously only a few moments from one game, but the pictures don't paint a pretty picture of the OL's performance.
Link - ( New Window )
Yep, the pressure numbers were just made up and the tackle play was just bad occasionally.
Tell yourself whatever you need to.
I don't buy the yards per carry argument in isolation. You have to remember over the latter half the season teams were blanketing Beckham with Man Cover 2 giving us favourable running situations which we were unable to execute consistently.
Much of our Oline is young and we can reasonably expect them to improve. We need to remember that cohesion of continuity is important.
It's line blocking. It's backs and receivers blocking. It's TE blocking. It's RB talent. It's lack of passing offense performance.
Laying it ALL on the offensive line ignores a lot of other issues, and how the Giants attacked free agency on offense indicates this.