It was briefly discussed in another thread, but I keep reading it, whether it's fans or people in the media. The OL was not the biggest problem last year, Rashad Jennings was. In fact, the line was solid in that department. I really like Jennings as a person, but he was putrid last year. The OL created some holes and Jennings danced until they were closed.
My point of this thread is that I expect the offense to be much, much better with Perkins, let alone the upgrades we've added to help.
To me, YPC is a great indicator of success and Jennings was at 3.3 YPC. He was the worst RB in football in YPC. Paul Perkins however was somewhere in the middle of the pack at 4.1 YPC and that was in his rookie season. When Paul Perkins saw his rushes double in the last 5 games of the season, he averaged 4.5 YPC. That's a very respectable number over the last 5 games of the season.
Fast forward to 2017 and Perkins is a year older and has some experience. We added a TE that can block when all of last year we had some of the worst blocked TE's that I've ever seen. We upgraded the line. We added a threat at WR that needs to be accounted for who is also a very good run blocking WR.
Translation: Settle down. We are going to run the ball this season and the offense will be much improved. Control the ball with the running game, let Eli throw it when he has to and let the defense dominate, that's the recipe.
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the Giants had every right to think EF was their LT. He was the 9 overall pick going into his 2nd season.
I think they could have done more to upgrade the other side, but I also don't think the line is as bad as you do. As was the point of this thread, I think the line can run block and Jennings made them look like the worst run blocking team in the NFL. I also think Eli and his happy feet and lack of pocket presence made the pass blocking look a little worse than it is. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst in the NF either.
All in all, they have talent to work with and my point that they don't know how it will shake out is becasue they wanted competition for those positions. They are hoping EF takes the next step like he should.
They're not just hoping with Flowers. They're hoping with Richburg, Fluker, and Jerry. They're also hoping that Pugh stays healthy. That's a lot of hoping.
If you're going to blame Eli and Jennings (and I was never a Jennings fan) for the line's performance last year then you and I saw two different things. I've linked cnewk's Perkins thread after the Pittsburgh game below. It's obviously only a few moments from one game, but the pictures don't paint a pretty picture of the OL's performance. Link - ( New Window )
I wouldnt say they are "hoping" on Richburg. While he did not take the step up that most expected here last year, he was still a top half C in the league. Expecting progress out of your 4th year center (who is one of the better athletes at his position) is not really asking for a lot.
But sometimes you just have to look at the obvious. The running game absolutely sucked.
Very happy Jennings is gone. Perkins looks like the second coming to many because he looks like he belongs on an NFL field and no Giants fans are used to seeing that because we have been treated to Jennings for the past few seasons. In my opinion he did nothing well as a back and is one of the worst starting RB's in the NFL. His cut is addition by subtraction. He had no physicality or tackle breaking, he looked like he was running through water, he had no shake and bake and (although it is one play) that .gif shows he has a vision problem as well.
Very happy he is gone.
There is no doubt the O line is a problem too. But, its shortcomings were made worse by the Giants fielding one of the worst RB and TE corps in the league.
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
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The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Very happy Jennings is gone. Perkins looks like the second coming to many because he looks like he belongs on an NFL field and no Giants fans are used to seeing that because we have been treated to Jennings for the past few seasons. In my opinion he did nothing well as a back and is one of the worst starting RB's in the NFL. His cut is addition by subtraction. He had no physicality or tackle breaking, he looked like he was running through water, he had no shake and bake and (although it is one play) that .gif shows he has a vision problem as well.
Very happy he is gone.
There is no doubt the O line is a problem too. But, its shortcomings were made worse by the Giants fielding one of the worst RB and TE corps in the league.
Mostly agree. Jennings was a good blocker, which every head coach needs. The last line pretty much sums it up. Maybe if we were playing a game of semantics I could say that the OL isn't necessary a problem, but it's not one of our strengths. 4.5 YPC is respectable and that was with a rookie RB and no TE.
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In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:
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The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.
Yes, he average 4.1 yards, but dig a little deeper. He was getting 5-7 rushes per game for the majority of the season. MacAdoo finally let him split the carries with 5 games left and he started to get 15+ carries per game. In the last 5 games, he average 4.5 YPC.
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In comment 13403247 jeff57 said:
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The OL has been bad at run blocking for several years
Then why did Vereen and Perkins both absolutely destroy Jennings in production? No one here is saying we are some sneaky amazing OL, but there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
Vereen only had 33 attempts. Perkins had 4.1 average, which is better, but he didn't get the bulk of the carries.
3.3 YPC is atrocious, do we just ignore that? And Perkins did have less carries but his last 3 games he averaged 15 carries at 4.8 per clip, should we ignore that too?
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
The load was way too small! Oh!
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
Your only notable contribution on this discussion is blowjobs and wet dreams. Well done.
If you consider this offensive line the quality equivalent of a blowjob then you need to have a serious conversation with whomever it is that is blowing you.
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.
At what point is it on the players and coaches? There's blame at all levels but they can't just put everything towards the OL despite their already large investments via the draft.
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In comment 13403258 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
Word. Spot on. It's exhausting. OL= Not good. We get it.
BBI could f up a wet dream.
Your only notable contribution on this discussion is blowjobs and wet dreams. Well done.
If you consider this offensive line the quality equivalent of a blowjob then you need to have a serious conversation with whomever it is that is blowing you.
Would you stop already? Where did I compare the OL to a BJ?
At this point, you're making stuff up.
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In comment 13403250 UConn4523 said:
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there are positives, you don't have to ignore them just because LT hasn't gone as planned.
And yet there are people who dispute when I say Giants fans insist on making any team deficiency unquestionably the worst such situation in the league.
And there are some on the flipside of that. It's not that it's the worst in the league. It's that it's taken this particular front office YEARS to field a good OLine. This is a fact.
Yes, Dave. I get that. The OL has been an issue for some time. That is not what I'm debating.....Nevermind.
I guess the real issue is what kind of running game can we expect this year.
We do need improved play from our Oline, while there are several areas that need to be improve, we do have a solid base to build on.
We do have a good core of young players who we can expect to continue to develop. We do have a lot of continuity which is a definite advantage.
We also have a year of experience with Mike Solari's coaching with his particular style of Oline play.
As things are situated at the moment, we have pretty much the same group as last year, with DJ Fluker effectively replacing Newhouse and Beatty which is an upgrade plus imho. Plus we have the draft where I would expect to add more Oline talent, particularly if you look at the prospects the Giants have shown interest in.
I am reasonably confident that we will have much improved OL play and when you factor in changes at the skill position, we should have a dramatically improved ground game.
Point being if the investment is to increase points gained and decrease points allowed, the free agent investment last year for the year and the next 2 looks good.
But keep on twisting irrelevant lines or snippets from this debate to deflect. Because the entire point of this is to fight over whether Vernon and snacks were as inpactful as reggie white. Cmon man. Who cares? My point was they had a huge impact here in year one. Huge. And you damn well know it. Everyone does.
Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.
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Every RB has to make people miss, Jennings cannot. The Giants running game was pretty good when Perkins took over, when Perkins played.
In the last 5 games when they split evenly:
Jennings-66 rushes-198 yards-3 YPC
Perkins-69 rushes-309 yards-4.5 YPC
Was that because he eluded tacklers behind the line for big gaines? No. He's a quality back and the OL created holes. Of those 309 yards, only 2 rushes were for over 20 yards(20/22).
The point is that Perkins should be making people miss at the linebacker level, not in the backfield.
agreed, not much any RB can do when he is being chased in the backfield..
The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".
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in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.
Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.
don't quite get your response, this was about the O-line, am I right!
The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".
Almost every team they played last season featured the Cover 2 of Death against them.
The Browns definitely weren't the ones to alert the league of anything. Word was out well before then.
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In comment 13403561 gmenatlarge said:
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in thinking this line isn't that bad, nonsense, it was one of the worst in the league. So to go into ANOTHER offseason and make virtually no improvement (Fluker) is ridiculous and a waste of Eli's last years.
Crazy thought.....There are a lot of posts, so I can't expect anyone to read the whole thread, but read just the OP and then comment.
don't quite get your response, this was about the O-line, am I right!
Not quite. It's specifically about the run blocking and the running game. The OL is not good, nobody on this whole thread said they were. Regarding the running game, Jennings was a bigger problem than the line. Perkins had success with the same line. I expect the running game to improve this year with Perkins, a blocking TE, a good blocking/weapon at WR, upgrades to the run blocking OL.
The Browns game was a watershed game...They taught the league to disrespect our run , put 6 in the box, played cover two with the safety's deep.
Obviously that made it easier to run, If Perkins profited from that are his stats artificially inflated.
Sometimes the more you learn the less you know...Physicists are finding that truth working with Quantum Mechanics...and astrologists know less everytime Hubble shows the a new part of the universe. "what the expansion is increasing, gee I know less today than yesterday. " The don't even know what grey matter is, only that it's about 80% of the universe".
Wait, you think week 11 was when teams realized this and changed how they played us?
6 rushing TDs, least a.k.a. last in the league,
and about 10 less rushing first downs as opposed to average opponent if I read that correctly.
if not for the big DL, we could have had an UGLY year
or - are you suggesting that the team find a great RB who can get yards even when the blocking breaks down?
and what then, if that one person gets injured?
comparing cost value to any DL vs Ol, silly, that's not really doable. it appears like just another in a long list of excuses not to mock draft OL such as guards
But, the rhetorical lengths people seem to go to in order to avoid drafting the very best guards and big centers, amazing.