I like Ball but I don't know a whole lot about the draft in the NBA I just know it's a good year.
I heard the next lebron is in high school now? If so and he's a freshmen in college next year it could be worth trading Melo and tanking for him next year
No help from Orlando or Philly tonight. Sacramento I can't see winning another game. I think we have a better chance staying at 7 than dropping all the way to 4.
Have been longing for. But its the Knicks, therefore he will get picked right before their selection. Still pissed the Knicks took KP from my Orlando Magics, i knew he would be really good.
RE: Ball would be the PG the Knicks and their fans
Have been longing for. But its the Knicks, therefore he will get picked right before their selection. Still pissed the Knicks took KP from my Orlando Magics, i knew he would be really good.
It's funny how that much one spot difference can change a franchise, even if its not within the top 3.
If Orlando took KP things would've looked pretty promising. Gordon, KP. Keep Oladipo and Sabonis. Not a fan of Payton but he's a plus as a backup/6th man.
But they took Hezonja and everything went to shit. I still like the Knicks long term over the Magic for that reason. Gordon is going to be one fine player, but I don't think he's a franchise center piece by any means.
but can you imagine if Philly had taken KP instead of Okafor? I'm not sure he would've hurt their tank either - they would've just shut him down with some of these nagging injuries.
but can you imagine if Philly had taken KP instead of Okafor? I'm not sure he would've hurt their tank either - they would've just shut him down with some of these nagging injuries.
They would've had to take him blindly because KP refused to work out for them.
Tank's gotta roll through Portland tomorrow night.
God if Gobert got 35 tonight I don't wanna see what Nurkic does. KP/Willy having to cover Rose's ass when Dame blows by him is gonna lead to a lot of easy buckets.
remember a debate on BBI earlier in the season debating how good Gobert was. I think that one is settled...
Very interesting quotes from Jennings and he makes some valid points. Hornacek doesn't look good here.
"It was just different. Every day it was just something different," Jennings said. "It was just like, if we could just stick to what we could do, we'll be fine. So at times, you'd just come into practice and you didn't know what was going on."
But high praise for KP and Willy.
"That's who they should build a team around, those two," Jennings said." That's just my personal opinion because they're very young, they're very good. I mean, Willy, in a couple years, he's going to be probably one of the best big men. He reminds me of Marc Gasol."
I thought Hornacek was doing a good job early on, but like everything else with this team, it fell off a cliff. He had solid rotations, guys were clicking, but then he became so unpredictable. He's been terrible, but we can't just move on. He needs to be given a chance to do the job. Phil gets another season, Hornacek gets another season and lets see where we are. Like Jennings said, we have 2 really good young players to build around and we could get a 3rd pretty soon.
remember a debate on BBI earlier in the season debating how good Gobert was. I think that one is settled...
Very interesting quotes from Jennings and he makes some valid points. Hornacek doesn't look good here.
"It was just different. Every day it was just something different," Jennings said. "It was just like, if we could just stick to what we could do, we'll be fine. So at times, you'd just come into practice and you didn't know what was going on."
But high praise for KP and Willy.
"That's who they should build a team around, those two," Jennings said." That's just my personal opinion because they're very young, they're very good. I mean, Willy, in a couple years, he's going to be probably one of the best big men. He reminds me of Marc Gasol." NYdailynews - ( New Window )
Hornacek admitted it was a mistake to try and run both and blend it..
i have no problem with running the triangle just stick to it and run it
can we get a clue on the other side of the court. I fully understand that no defense will be good with Melo and Rose, but we are lost on defense. Can we come up with a defensive system that works?
looking to rile it up again but I recall someone on here arguing Gobert's contract looks terrible compared to Noah... I can't lie, it's all I could think of as Gobert took a hot steamer on the Knicks.
I thought Hornacek was doing a good job early on, but like everything else with this team, it fell off a cliff. He had solid rotations, guys were clicking, but then he became so unpredictable. He's been terrible, but we can't just move on. He needs to be given a chance to do the job. Phil gets another season, Hornacek gets another season and lets see where we are. Like Jennings said, we have 2 really good young players to build around and we could get a 3rd pretty soon.
I dont think the tram was clicking at all, offensively it was basically ok melo your turn and then next time ok rose your turn and kp sprinkled in...
there was not unity or team work and there was no defense..
the team thought they could win on talent alone and it blew up in their face
can we get a clue on the other side of the court. I fully understand that no defense will be good with Melo and Rose, but we are lost on defense. Can we come up with a defensive system that works?
this i agree with their is a reason why the 2nd unit plays bettter
looking to rile it up again but I recall someone on here arguing Gobert's contract looks terrible compared to Noah... I can't lie, it's all I could think of as Gobert took a hot steamer on the Knicks.
I remember this too...Gobert is a great young player. A different stratosphere than Noah at this point. Imagine a front line of him and KP??
He had a structured rotation that worked really well. It was mostly the second unit when KP, Willy, Kuz and Jennings played together, but he was very structured with when guys came in and who played together. That second unit moved the ball really well and played good team offense. The starting unit was a different story as it was the Melo and Rose show.
can we get a clue on the other side of the court. I fully understand that no defense will be good with Melo and Rose, but we are lost on defense. Can we come up with a defensive system that works?
I agree that there is too much focus on the offense BUT the biggest issue with the defense is the roster/talent. The good defensive teams have long, young, + athletes. We have lazy Rose and Melo, below average quickless Willy and overall a roster of guys who even in the best "system" would be below average defensively. We need an effort + athlete influx.
looking to rile it up again but I recall someone on here arguing Gobert's contract looks terrible compared to Noah... I can't lie, it's all I could think of as Gobert took a hot steamer on the Knicks.
I remember this too...Gobert is a great young player. A different stratosphere than Noah at this point. Imagine a front line of him and KP??
A Gobert/KP frontline is something that really allows you to dream. Lets face it, it's going to be extremely tough to ever on paper be as good as the Warriors or Cavs etc but if you find things that you are really good at (rim protection?) maybe you give these types of teams more trouble than people expect.
He had a structured rotation that worked really well. It was mostly the second unit when KP, Willy, Kuz and Jennings played together, but he was very structured with when guys came in and who played together. That second unit moved the ball really well and played good team offense. The starting unit was a different story as it was the Melo and Rose show.
Yeah the 2nd unit was different because jennings constantly fed the big guys on pick and roll...
knock on Kuz but I think most Knicks fans really "overrate" him when he's lumped in with KP, Willy and "our pick". He's 28 in October, maybe he's a little better year 2, and I could see him being a solid 8th man on a good team but he's filler.
Throwing this trade proposal out there to see what you guys think.
Melo for Deng/ Clarkson/ Randle/ 2017 1st from Houston? Melo would have to agree to not exercise his player option after next season ( which he probably won't anyway). The Lakers clear 30 million in salary per year after next season. They also avoid having to give Randle an extension or matching an offer next year- which will be costly. The Knicks get Randle and late 1st this year. This obviously isn't likely but you never know. It could leave the Lakers with 60-70 million in cap room for the 2018 offseason. Russell/ 2017 pick/ Melo/ George/ Cousins? Now that's a quick rebuild....
Jeanne is there in the second round I'd really think long and hard about taking him. Yeah, he's a project but he's 19 years old, 7'2 (without shoes) 7'7 wingspan. He's the kind of "Gobert Jr." starter kit I'd be curious about. Link - ( New Window )
Knicks at 27-44 are tied with the Kings for the 6th/7th negative-seed. Not sure how tiebreakers would work. Current seeding with relative position to Knicks is:
Nets (BOS) : we wont catch
Lakers : we wont catch
Suns : we wont catch
Magic : +1.5
Sixers : +1.0
Kings : tied with NYK
Knicks
T'Wolves : -1.5
Pels : -3.0 and pulling away
Knicks are tied for 6/7. In the event of a tie, they average the balls. E.g. if this were the final standings, Knicks and Kings would evenly split the balls for the 6 and 7 picks, with a coin flip used to determine allocation of any extra ball (if any) and draft position in case neither team wins a top 3 pick.
Position is so key. #7 slot has a 15% chance of moving up. #5 slot has a 29.2% chance of moving up. I believe in us. I dont think any other team is as mentally broken as we are.
That's giving up a lot. Magic wants to turn things around but I don't think he'd shorten the team's timeline to rely on PG and 35 year old Melo to take them places.
That's giving up a lot. Magic wants to turn things around but I don't think he'd shorten the team's timeline to rely on PG and 35 year old Melo to take them places.
magic and Jeannie buss have already said they want superstars on the lakers and not looking fir a slow build
I want the Knicks to be a winner. I've pretty much given up on them ever winning a title, but I'd like them to at least be what they were in the '90s. Winning games right now makes that harder to achieve. These wins mean absolutely nothing in the long term.
Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer
Six players are averaging > 19 ppg and shooting > 50% in March:
LeBron, Kyrie, Karl-Anthony Towns, Giannis, Jokic and .... Tim Hardaway Jr.
Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer
Six players are averaging > 19 ppg and shooting > 50% in March:
LeBron, Kyrie, Karl-Anthony Towns, Giannis, Jokic and .... Tim Hardaway Jr.
and no defense, he did this with the knicks, he had great stretches and a complete scrub in the others...
he is a scorer off the bench, i dont think he will ever be anything more
was just told I am not a "real fan" by EricNY33 because I'm rooting for losses at this point. Thoughts?
A fan should want their team to be successful. Success does not equate to winning games in a lost season where you are effectively eliminated, where the core starters are not long for the lineup, and where you're draft position is in play.
I was furious when Melo hit that game-winner against Philly. I was furious when the Magic basically handed us that second game in Orlando a couple of weeks back by running their entire offense through Biyombo until they squandered a 7-point fourth quarter lead. I'm still annoyed they beat the Spurs before the All-Star Break.
And I still have scars from the tanks wars two years ago - rooting for these shitty teams to win this time of year is a fruitless exercise. I bet the current standings stay exactly as they are.
But he serves no purpose on the Knicks. He's a nice bench scoring option for a good team.
I just feel he's "unfairly" lumped in with KP and Willy. Granted, Willy doesn't really belong lumped in with KP but both could be above average starters on a very good team. Kuz isn't a average starter, not even on a bad team. He's solid but if they loved someone early 2nd round and swapped him for such a guy (presumably 6=7 years younger) I wouldn't lose much sleep.
There isnt that much daylight between Dan's assessment and Greg's. A bench rotation player is by definition a #6-9/10 player. I dont think Kuz is realistically going to be the first man off the bench on a top 5 team. I could be wrong -- this is his first year in North American basketball, and he could really progress next year in just settling down his game. But failing that, his upside appears to be non-6th man rotation player. Which is roughly an 8th man.
Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer
Six players are averaging > 19 ppg and shooting > 50% in March:
LeBron, Kyrie, Karl-Anthony Towns, Giannis, Jokic and .... Tim Hardaway Jr.
and no defense, he did this with the knicks, he had great stretches and a complete scrub in the others...
he is a scorer off the bench, i dont think he will ever be anything more
He wasn't this good with the Knicks. I'm not sure he would've been, but lets not discredit how he's doing.
If the Knicks had a 24 year old SG that was putting up his numbers and wasn't named "Tim Hardaway Jr." we would all be talking about we had a core 3 and another top pick coming on top of that.
But he serves no purpose on the Knicks. He's a nice bench scoring option for a good team.
I just feel he's "unfairly" lumped in with KP and Willy. Granted, Willy doesn't really belong lumped in with KP but both could be above average starters on a very good team. Kuz isn't a average starter, not even on a bad team. He's solid but if they loved someone early 2nd round and swapped him for such a guy (presumably 6=7 years younger) I wouldn't lose much sleep.
I think you read too much into it. People list him in among assets we have, but I dont hear anyone commenting on him specifically as anything near equal to KP and WH
That's giving up a lot. Magic wants to turn things around but I don't think he'd shorten the team's timeline to rely on PG and 35 year old Melo to take them places.
magic and Jeannie buss have already said they want superstars on the lakers and not looking fir a slow build
Is it really a lot though? Randle has been up and down and he's up to get a big contract. The Lakers are going to be able to attract big free agents, NBA players love LA. This trade allows them to clear the Deng and Clarkson salaries and avoid paying Randle. It also all hinges on them retaining their pick this year. Remember, if they keep the pick, their 2018 pick is unprotected so they have zero reason to tank next year.
They could trade the number 3 overall and Ingram for Paul George. Do the above trade for Melo. Go into next year with Russell, Melo, PG13, Zubac, Nance and maybe sign a vet PG. They would enter the 2018 season with a boatload of cap room and the ability to use the bird rights on Melo and George to go over the cap. Go after Westbrook or Cousins?
It's far fetched but its one of the only scenarios I could see the Knicks getting something back for Melo.
I just think you're overvaluing how much the Lakers would give up to clear salaries.
Ingram and the #3 pick for PG? The Lakers seem to have all of the leverage in this situation. That's an insane how much you'd have to give up for PG. PG will be getting a cousins-like return at this point (maybe less, he's an expiring after this upcoming season).
The Lakers would need to clear all of Clarkson, Randle, mozgov and Deng to make that work anyways (getting cousins, PG and keeping Melo on his player option).
Also seems Cousins is intent about getting the most money, so unless the Pelicans don't give him the max I think he ends up being in NO long term. Just speculation on my part.
He wasn't this good with the Knicks. I'm not sure he would've been, but lets not discredit how he's doing.
If the Knicks had a 24 year old SG that was putting up his numbers and wasn't named "Tim Hardaway Jr." we would all be talking about we had a core 3 and another top pick coming on top of that.
Counterpoint: he's the same player he was last year, albeit taking more shots. Shooting percentages by sub-distances arent materially different. He's added an assist per 36 minutes. WS48 is basically the same.
I'd probably be dreading the idea of having to pay $20+ million a season to resign him this summer more than I'd be celebrating increased volume. But that's my general feel about youth in the NBA. It's great for the first 4 seasons. Then even good players can kill you by eating your cap and preventing better picks, IF you dont have the superstars in place already.
Millsap is voiding his contract. I'm done watching the Knicks if we go after him.
Why would he even come here?
Good question but TRYING to sign him would mean 1. No plan and 2. They are just going to keep adding veterans with no chance of ever winning a title. Odds are he remains in Atl as he'd be leaving as much as 53 million on the table (4 years 154 if he signs with someone else, 5 for 207 if he stays there).
He'll be 33 next year. You're going to tie up 40 million per season for 5 years in Paul Millsap? Frankly, Im not sure that any team other than those with absolutely current title aspirations should consider offering Millsap the max. 33 years old. Not an elite athlete. Not a top 20 player. Got worse this year, statistically.
I wouldn't give up Randle for PG. Maybe Clarkson and the rockets #1.
Are you serious? Clarkson and a late 1st for Paul George?
Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
I wouldn't give up Randle for PG. Maybe Clarkson and the rockets #1.
Are you serious? Clarkson and a late 1st for Paul George?
Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
The Pacers obviously don't feel this is a done deal. They reportedly turned down significant offers from Boston and Philly.
But that's my general feel about youth in the NBA. It's great for the first 4 seasons. Then even good players can kill you by eating your cap and preventing better picks, IF you dont have the superstars in place already.
And that's why there are only ever three or four teams with a legitimate chance of winning a championship/
Paul george has now become an expiring and now you can just say "why not just wait for him next offseason?".
Same goes for everyone who thought we would get better offers for Melo in the offseason. No, Melo is 33 and can opt out. No ones giving anything of value for Melo when they can sign him in the offseason if they really wanted Melo that badly.
The Knicks have a clear path to building a really strong young core. The more I read about the 2018 draft, the stronger it sounds. Some really top prospects at the head of the draft.
Knicks need to pair KP/ Willy with hopefully a top 5 2017 pick. Trade Melo for whatever you can get. I really like Lee, but trade him for 2017 1st or future 1st. Don't sign any veterans- no Millsap/ Teague/ Holiday/ Hill.
Let the young team take its lumps in 2017. If they win then its a pleasant surprise and KP obviously makes a huge jump. If they lose big, they get another top pick. Then you truly have a young core you can build around and augment with FA signings after 2018.
The correct direction is so clear and I know they won't do it. They'll chase some veteran FAs and try to contend for the playoffs. The good thing is, Jackson has tried to do that 3 years now and failed miserably.
He wasn't this good with the Knicks. I'm not sure he would've been, but lets not discredit how he's doing.
If the Knicks had a 24 year old SG that was putting up his numbers and wasn't named "Tim Hardaway Jr." we would all be talking about we had a core 3 and another top pick coming on top of that.
Counterpoint: he's the same player he was last year, albeit taking more shots. Shooting percentages by sub-distances arent materially different. He's added an assist per 36 minutes. WS48 is basically the same.
I'd probably be dreading the idea of having to pay $20+ million a season to resign him this summer more than I'd be celebrating increased volume. But that's my general feel about youth in the NBA. It's great for the first 4 seasons. Then even good players can kill you by eating your cap and preventing better picks, IF you dont have the superstars in place already.
Fair enough. If THJR is going to be making that kind of money I would certainly back off my stance.
I've been saying it, but there has to be a time where these big contracts for mediocre players stops. Cap space should become very valuable in no time at this rate.
Thought they found something with Drummond, acquire Reggie Jackson and Tobias Harris - looks good on paper but where are they going? Same with Indiana - nail the Turner pick, have a two-way superstar in George, and they're in no man's land. The currency of hope, as Alan Hahn always says. We could do everything right these next two years in terms of building through the draft and still wind up in a similar position as them, but it's the best option.
Knicks should take what they can get for Melo as long as it's not more years on a turd like Austin Rivers. Expiring deals, Bryce Johnson, Diamond Stone and 1-2 future picks. So be it.
Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
There was an implied return in the Cousins trade which was that SAC probably felt that there was a 50-50 chance or worse that they finish outside the bottom 10, and would then lose the protection on that pick. The needed to move Boogie to get worse and save their pick. So I wont say it was Boogie for Buddy and 2 lottery picks this season, but maybe it was Buddy and 1.6 lottery picks? Including improved positioning for the SAC pick.
Different circumstance I think. Kings are also more hopeless (Indy has Turner) and are poorly run.
The Knicks have a clear path to building a really strong young core. The more I read about the 2018 draft, the stronger it sounds. Some really top prospects at the head of the draft.
Knicks need to pair KP/ Willy with hopefully a top 5 2017 pick. Trade Melo for whatever you can get. I really like Lee, but trade him for 2017 1st or future 1st. Don't sign any veterans- no Millsap/ Teague/ Holiday/ Hill.
Let the young team take its lumps in 2017. If they win then its a pleasant surprise and KP obviously makes a huge jump. If they lose big, they get another top pick. Then you truly have a young core you can build around and augment with FA signings after 2018.
The correct direction is so clear and I know they won't do it. They'll chase some veteran FAs and try to contend for the playoffs. The good thing is, Jackson has tried to do that 3 years now and failed miserably.
I think a top pick in 2018 is inevitable. Outside KP/Willy making big strides, the team will not get better.
Even if the Knicks do go after these FAs they will not be the only suitor offering them big money. Not even worried about who we *might* be going after, because we aren't going to get any of them.
Knicks need to pair KP/ Willy with hopefully a top 5 2017 pick. Trade Melo for whatever you can get. I really like Lee, but trade him for 2017 1st or future 1st. Don't sign any veterans- no Millsap/ Teague/ Holiday/ Hill.
I sure hope this is how it plays out. I'm sure they'll make a push for some vets but who's coming here at this point? We're a dumpster fire.
I'd probably be dreading the idea of having to pay $20+ million a season to resign him this summer more than I'd be celebrating increased volume. But that's my general feel about youth in the NBA. It's great for the first 4 seasons. Then even good players can kill you by eating your cap and preventing better picks, IF you dont have the superstars in place already.
Fair enough. If THJR is going to be making that kind of money I would certainly back off my stance.
I've been saying it, but there has to be a time where these big contracts for mediocre players stops. Cap space should become very valuable in no time at this rate.
If we are celebrating/scouting THJR as an emerging solid starter at SG (thin position), in a year with another cap jump, then how can we possibly project him to get less than the $19/season Crabbe got? Either he's worse than Crabbe, and then meh, or he's better, and then $$$$$$$$$.
I dont bemoan the loss of THJR. Solid starters coming up for contracts are fools gold for a team in the Knicks' position.
Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
There was an implied return in the Cousins trade which was that SAC probably felt that there was a 50-50 chance or worse that they finish outside the bottom 10, and would then lose the protection on that pick. The needed to move Boogie to get worse and save their pick. So I wont say it was Boogie for Buddy and 2 lottery picks this season, but maybe it was Buddy and 1.6 lottery picks? Including improved positioning for the SAC pick.
Different circumstance I think. Kings are also more hopeless (Indy has Turner) and are poorly run.
But Cousins still had 2 years at least (or 1.5). I think for that reason PG has a little less value.
And actually, as much as I'd like Turner, with the two top 10 picks SAC might have this year I think I'd much rather be in SAC's position than Indy who might lose PG for little or nothing.
If skal is say, maybe 80% of what Turner is, then hield, WCS and maybe Tatum and French/fox? I'd much rather be SAC than a lot of these mediocre teams in no mans land (Charlotte, Chicago, Memphis, Indy, Atlanta, etc.). At least from a talent standpoint and not an organizational standpoint. Who knew i would say that.
The Knicks have a clear path to building a really strong young core. The more I read about the 2018 draft, the stronger it sounds. Some really top prospects at the head of the draft.
Knicks need to pair KP/ Willy with hopefully a top 5 2017 pick. Trade Melo for whatever you can get. I really like Lee, but trade him for 2017 1st or future 1st. Don't sign any veterans- no Millsap/ Teague/ Holiday/ Hill.
Let the young team take its lumps in 2017. If they win then its a pleasant surprise and KP obviously makes a huge jump. If they lose big, they get another top pick. Then you truly have a young core you can build around and augment with FA signings after 2018.
The correct direction is so clear and I know they won't do it. They'll chase some veteran FAs and try to contend for the playoffs. The good thing is, Jackson has tried to do that 3 years now and failed miserably.
I think a top pick in 2018 is inevitable. Outside KP/Willy making big strides, the team will not get better.
Even if the Knicks do go after these FAs they will not be the only suitor offering them big money. Not even worried about who we *might* be going after, because we aren't going to get any of them.
But my point is don't half ass it. Do a full rebuild. You just know Jackson will be itching to give a monster contract to Holiday/ Hill or Teague. Just keep the cap clean and go after the top pick. Instead they'll make moves that make them just good enough to barely miss the playoffs. Follow the OKC model and hopefully get that 3rd foundation player. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Phil has the patience to opt for another losing season. It's why I advocate firing him and bringing in a new GM. Someone who will commit to it and not try to do build/contend simultaneously like Phil has done.
Not implying the "bubble" will burst in 2017, I mean more it's going to happen sooner or later. With everyone who hits FA getting "bad" contracts, it's going to get counterbalanced with "good" contracts eventually.
Ennis worth exploring? UFA and only 22, James Young? Maybe he bolts for more PT? He's only 21. Muscala is only 25. Ian Clark?
I'm personally not big on any of those guys but those are the signings you make for a team in the Knicks position. Clark is intriguing, an undersized SG. I'd probably opt to keep Holiday if the price is similar tho.
This. I didnt mind Detroit's approach at all. I liked Drummond, Jackson, Harris, and picking Stanimal. However, Drummond just wont break out of being basically the same player he's always been, which isnt good enough to be the best player on a good team. Jackson got hurt. Stanimal didnt develop. Harris is what I think everyone figured he'd be, a solid starter. They didnt get lucky. If they did, they would be a UFA destination with a chance to do some damage in the coming years (honestly, no one in the East has a chance until LeBron slows down or a surprise super team forms).
The Knicks should throw Crowder an offer Boston potentially wouldn't match. Like $12M a year. It would've been bad on the surface but at least the Knicks would get a young player.
Turns out, $12M would've still been quite the steal.
I think the contracts come back down to earth this offseason. The salary cap isn't escalating as high as everyone once thought, and I believe it's even projected to flatten out in the years to come. Last year was probably an anomaly. Guys will still get overpaid, that's the nature of free agency, but it won't be like last year.
I know everyone reported that they don't expect an amnesty clause in the new CBA, but any chance it still gets included? Or is the CBA a done deal? Would be huge for the Noah contract.
The Knicks should throw Crowder an offer Boston potentially wouldn't match. Like $12M a year. It would've been bad on the surface but at least the Knicks would get a young player.
Turns out, $12M would've still been quite the steal.
Why would the bubble, if it exists, pop this year? Cap is up, plenty of teams have needs and room. Crabbe is a much better comp than Crowder. Crowder was comming offer a trade and <8 point season. He took a bad deal, period, based on advanced stats.Also, there wasnt much of a market for RFAs until last season, realistically.
He's never really cited a specific source but he's pretty well connected to all things Knicks. I interpret it as transitioning from Melo to KP without bottoming out completely. Nice try, Phil.
Any rational Knicks fan wants them to lose in their current situation. There is no pride in this scenario. NBA is about getting top level talent, and being at the top of draft is the best way to do it. We've all followed this team since October. The right thing to do now is lose. I don't even understand why Melo/ Lee/ Rose are playing. I would even limit KP- why risk injury? The Lakers and Suns aren't even hiding it. Winning down the stretcher in 2015 cost the Knicks - they would have gotten the top pick and KAT if they lost out. There's been plenty examples of all out tanking in the past,( Mark Madsen jacking up 3s) theres no shame in it.
Just please don't win the last game against the 76ers.
has started the bucks 16 games since the all star break. Shooting 32% from the floor TS% at 42%. Averaging about 6 rebounds per 36.
His numbers were cute when he was getting meaningless minutes. Not calling you out Dan, btw, but I think comparing him to KP is a bit premature and a disservice to how good KP is. I don't think he's anymore "raw" than KP was coming into the league. He's just a bit (or a lot) more behind from a basketball standpoint (and quite possibly older than KP too).
Not at all saying he's a scrub or will be a scrub, but when Jabari Parker says things like he will be the best 7 footer in the league, it sounds like a Lavar Ball comment. Still a great pick by the bucks, those are the types of picks if you nail consistently you'll end up with a contender sooner or later. I think he'all be a fine player, but he's still a few years away.
Hardaway Jr got them a 1st rounder, right? Hard to kill that move
has started the bucks 16 games since the all star break. Shooting 32% from the floor TS% at 42%. Averaging about 6 rebounds per 36.
His numbers were cute when he was getting meaningless minutes. Not calling you out Dan, btw, but I think comparing him to KP is a bit premature and a disservice to how good KP is. I don't think he's anymore "raw" than KP was coming into the league. He's just a bit (or a lot) more behind from a basketball standpoint (and quite possibly older than KP too).
Not at all saying he's a scrub or will be a scrub, but when Jabari Parker says things like he will be the best 7 footer in the league, it sounds like a Lavar Ball comment. Still a great pick by the bucks, those are the types of picks if you nail consistently you'll end up with a contender sooner or later. I think he'all be a fine player, but he's still a few years away.
He hasn't played well but in his defense he was basically viewed as a MAJOR project with some skills. He only turned 20 in Feb. If we didn't pick top 3 I'd deal our pick for Maker (the Bucks almost certainly wouldn't).
RE: Hardaway Jr got them a 1st rounder, right? Hard to kill that move
But in hindsight maybe we need to consider not quitting on young players too fast when we're not instantly gratified and try to have a longer view.
Agree about this point. I thought it was a steal when it happened though. In fairness, the Hawks player development with Bud is far superior to what the Knicks have.
All reports were that the scouting staff didn't like Grant but Phil went on his own and picked him. That exact scenario scares the shit out of me for the coming draft. "Phil likes TJ Leaf at 7- perfect fit for the triangle." Or passing on Smith because he doesn't fit the triangle...
maybe if it was 9-10 or later I would. I think I'd easily take any of the top 7 over Maker.
And I really don't believe he's just turned 20. Howard Beck was on Lowe's podcast after he wrote that article and said someone who he talked to who researched the HS's he went to and said he might be around 22-23. Not old by any means, but he's not like developing into his body.
IU was recruiting him heavily and before he made his decision to go the NBA it came down between ASU and IU and I was watching a lot of his stuff. He has a very thin frame, which will limit how much mass he can put on long term. I don't think he'll ever become an even average rebounder.
A lot of his deficiencies will not factor on the bucks. He won't have to create his shot as often (he has a nice handle for a big, but I don't think it's polished enough to be a major weapon in the NBA). Rebounding for him will be overlooked so long as GF is there.
And I really don't know the way the term "raw" is thrown around anymore. Just because he's not good at basketball but has nice physical tools makes him more "raw" and thus a higher ceiling compared to a guy like KP?
The issue with him in the draft was that he lacked in the fundamental areas bigs are required to have, even in the modern NBA. However he couldn't have fallen to a better team to cover his weaknesses. He'll be an impact player in Milwaukee.
unquestionably take Fultz, Ball, Jackson top 3 (I admit I'm probably even higher on Jackson than most. I just get a feeling his upside is potentially actual "superstar" or "2nd star with legit superstar". He has some unusual qualities. I'm already on record as not being a fan of Fox. I won't go nuts if we end up with him I just don't see "it" with him. Gun to my head I probably take Smith over Maker (assuming the knee checked out). Extremely high on Isaac, and I like Markkanen. So adjusting my statement I'd trade our pick (not that it's on the table) if we picked after the top 7 but wouldn't lose my shit vs. anyone outside of the top 3 (though the fact we need a PG and Smith is viewed as potentially elite one, I'd probably be bummed if we dealt the pick with Smith on the board).
Fultz
Ball
Jackson
Smith
Isaac
Markkanen
Tatum
Essentially I'd take Maker over Fox, Frenchy and Monk
Isaac? I have him outside the top 10. Doesn't do anything on offense well. A big pass for me.
I think you are underrating his offense quite a bit. First, he's shooting 35% from 3, 51% from the field so the "doesn't do anything on offense well" stuff isn't really fair. Second his numbers are diminished because FSU runs 12 deep. He's extremely mobile (can even take the ball up the court as the point on the FB). Jonathan Tjarks absolutely loves him
"When he does get to create offense for others, he shows flashes of rare vision and passing ability for a guy his size. Its almost impossible to stop an explosive 6-foot-10 athlete who can shoot and pass over the top of a defense:
It will be interesting to see if he becomes more aggressive on offense as he acclimates to the college schedule, especially once Florida States slate of games increases in difficulty in ACC play. The potential is there. In this sequence against Temple, Isaac uses a Eurostep to split a pick-and-roll and draw a foul:
What were seeing is still mostly potential at this point. Isaac is more a collection of interesting skills than a complete basketball player. While he usually makes the right decisions when he is on the floor, he doesnt always execute them correctly. He can get loose with the ball in traffic, and creating shots against smaller and faster defenders who can get into his dribble might be difficult for him if hes forced to play more as a wing SF at the next level" Link - ( New Window )
"At the age of 19, he has shown the ability to defend multiple positions, shoot the ball, put it on the floor, create for himself and others, rebound, and protect the rim. His skill set would allow him to fit on almost any team in the lottery, and a player with his combination of size, shooting ability, and athleticism makes for a useful NBA player, even if he never develops any further. Isaac has a high floor, and an even higher ceiling. Hes a 6-foot-10 player who can do everything on the basketball court well, and there arent many players like that at any level of the game. Jonathan Isaac is not being talked about a lot right now, but that will change soon enough."
RE: RE: Hardaway Jr got them a 1st rounder, right? Hard to kill that move
But in hindsight maybe we need to consider not quitting on young players too fast when we're not instantly gratified and try to have a longer view.
Agree about this point. I thought it was a steal when it happened though. In fairness, the Hawks player development with Bud is far superior to what the Knicks have.
All reports were that the scouting staff didn't like Grant but Phil went on his own and picked him. That exact scenario scares the shit out of me for the coming draft. "Phil likes TJ Leaf at 7- perfect fit for the triangle." Or passing on Smith because he doesn't fit the triangle...
not sure how you come to that conclusion, when grant was not your typical triangle point guard..
Did phil draft strictly for triangle last time he had picks? no so why would you be concerned now?
and how exactly is the hawks player development better?
He went hard after DeAndre Jordan, who is the polar opposite of a "Triangle" big, and of course Rose and Jennings - and Grant - are the polar opposites of "Triangle" point guards. I really have no clue what that man is doing, and I'm assuming neither does he.
Not sure they'll ever be able to attract that big FA to put them over the top (Milwaukee, after all), but I love watching them play.
They did get Monroe when everyone thought it was a big deal that Monroe "spurned" the Knicks for a high upside team.
I don't really think they'd need to get a big time FA. Giannis can easily be a top 3 player in a few years, if not the premier player in the NBA.
I hype him up all the time, but Ill always think middleton is criminally underrated until he makes an all star team. There have been worse players that have made all star teams in recent years (yeah I realize the '15 Hawks makes that easy to say, so does Kobe in his final year). But also guys like wade and Melo who made it in recent years. He's not in the harden/derozan/Klay class of 2 guards but he's right behind with Beal and Bradley IMO.
I've taken isssue with all the dumb contracts they've been handing out but they seem convinced they'll have to build from within. Otherwise maybe they could get Dwayne wade to come for a year or two and play off the bench.
RE: and how exactly is the hawks player development better?
whp has the hawks deceloped? Hardaway is still the same chucker and do nothing else player..
Hard to call him a chucker when he's shooting 36% from 3 and over 50% from 2.
He's not a defensive stopper by any means but I don't think he's the sieve people on this board think he is. He has great size for a 2 guard and plays with intensity.
RE: and how exactly is the hawks player development better?
he is avegaing 18 and 8 this season in atlanta, how much better has atlanta made him?
Also double the assists, shooting more 3s. Not saying he was a scrub in Utah, but he played with some damn good players there and he's playing well as the lead dog in Atlanta. He shouldn't be a lead dog of a good team, but he's carrying a pretty average team to a top 4 seed. I didn't think he was that type of player in Utah.
RE: RE: milsap averaged 16 and 8 his last 3 seasons in utah
he is avegaing 18 and 8 this season in atlanta, how much better has atlanta made him?
Also double the assists, shooting more 3s. Not saying he was a scrub in Utah, but he played with some damn good players there and he's playing well as the lead dog in Atlanta. He shouldn't be a lead dog of a good team, but he's carrying a pretty average team to a top 4 seed. I didn't think he was that type of player in Utah.
agreed on the part he is shooting more 3s but i think that is more the offense they run, he is a face up big, never developed the post up game..
utah he scored more on his hustle and pick snd roll but he was still a very good player
are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
Draft Express has him at #9 and dropping. Yup everyone has him in the top 7 ok proven wrong. So you want to take a player maybe top 5?) who averages 12.0 pts per game and build your team around? I'll pass. You can find 12 pt players all day in the NBA which are not top 5 picks. As said, 35% from 3? Got to stroke it better than that. 51% from the floor? at 6'11" he better do that all day around the rim.
Draft Express has him at #9 and dropping. Yup everyone has him in the top 7 ok proven wrong. So you want to take a player maybe top 5?) who averages 12.0 pts per game and build your team around? I'll pass. You can find 12 pt players all day in the NBA which are not top 5 picks. As said, 35% from 3? Got to stroke it better than that. 51% from the floor? at 6'11" he better do that all day around the rim.
Yes use flat out point per game averages. Shit why wouldn't Luke Kennard go #1 overall using that deep scouting insight?
Draft Nets and CBS have him 6. Ford had him top 7 last time I checked.
Hakeem Olajuwon averaged 8 ppg in his freshman year. Embiid averaged 10. Wiggins averaged like 16 or 17 in many more minutes played.
Don't understand how ppg is a substitute for scouting. You'd pick all seniors if that were the case.
60% from 2. And that's factoring he's a jump shooter. He's one of the most efficient players around the rim in college (probably the most efficient SF too).
are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
we'd be lucky to come away with a prospect with as high a ceiling as Isaac. If we win just two more games down the stretch we're probably in the seventh slot. We're getting a little carried away with this top five stuff. Sacramento and Orlando are terrible, and Philly can tank as well as anyone in sports history.
we'd be lucky to come away with a prospect with as high a ceiling as Isaac. If we win just two more games down the stretch we're probably in the seventh slot. We're getting a little carried away with this top five stuff. Sacramento and Orlando are terrible, and Philly can tank as well as anyone in sports history.
Philly has a lot of experience with tanking and you have to like their odds down the stretch given that they've been there so many times before and came through.
we'd be lucky to come away with a prospect with as high a ceiling as Isaac. If we win just two more games down the stretch we're probably in the seventh slot. We're getting a little carried away with this top five stuff. Sacramento and Orlando are terrible, and Philly can tank as well as anyone in sports history.
See the sixers can win though since the Kings hedge their bets. We only need to be worse than one or the other. And the sixers are halfway decent so I like their odds more.
are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
Draft Express has him at #9 and dropping. Yup everyone has him in the top 7 ok proven wrong. So you want to take a player maybe top 5?) who averages 12.0 pts per game and build your team around? I'll pass. You can find 12 pt players all day in the NBA which are not top 5 picks. As said, 35% from 3? Got to stroke it better than that. 51% from the floor? at 6'11" he better do that all day around the rim.
Russell Westbrook was a 3.4 ppg scorer as a freshman and a 12.7 ppg scorer (in 34 minutes!) as a soph. Your analysis is broken.
Complaining about a near 7 foot freshman shooting 35% from three is just bonkers. Period.
will say this (and I know it aint happening) but I sure as hell would keep my eyes on Coach Bud going forward. I think the guy is an A+ coach.
Totally agree. Just tried to doing quick search of his contract and couldn't find anything definitive. Would love to give him total control of the Knicks. One can hope.....
are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
that is part of having a better culture, player development set up, and such. even though i have been told that doesnt matter.
It doesn't matter. Everyone said the Nets aren't exactly the god damn Spurs yet. But keep fabricating all these pack of "haters" that contest everything you say.
are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
you just mentioned a bunch of role players..
guess what when you play on a good team your role players look better especially with a good head coach..
porzingis has not improved?
and please stop with hardaway jr, he is the same player, he is a scorer and thats it he does nothing else well..
millsap was a good player with utah as well, you want to say he improved hia 3 point shot? isnt that the player adding to his game to fit the offense?
bazemore looks like dog shit this year, he got a big contract and has regressed...
Knicks have the worst, Sacramento's not far behind, Philly's trying to change theirs a bit...am I missing anybody? It should be the norm that NBA franchises develop players and create an environment for them to succeed. Someone tell that to Dolan.
Would you trade our pick right now for Zach Lavine without knowing where it landed? What if it ends up being 6 or later?
I had Dunn included originally, but what about just Lavine? Or with a noah/Dieng swap included as well?
Without knowing where it landed, no. 6 or later for me yes. If the Knicks had a 22 (all of next season) PG/SG coming off a 19, 3.4 rebound, 3 assist 1 steal on 46/39 age 21 season we would be calling him untouchable. I think Wiggins/LaVine are a poor fit. The flip side is if you think LaVine is more Jamal Crawford than ascending "star" at the 2.
solid no, when you factor in the injury, fact that he's a year away from getting paid, and the fact that he is not even yet a solid starter (PER/WS48).
Carrol and Teague both looked like they've dropped off since leaving Atlanta.
No ones saying THJR is a superstar. That doesn't happen. Players who aren't going to be stars don't turn magically into stars. They play better in better situations. THJR is more efficient and is averaging more assists. Can you really argue that? Those are facts. He's the same exact player, he's just contributing more efficiently in a better environment.
Baze has actually been playing pretty well since he slumped to start the year. And he was on a good team before, those Warriors teams were in the playoffs. He's just better in a better environment (compared to the mark Jackson warriors, not Steve Kerr).
will say it's nuts how many minutes Thibs plays his guys. I doubt it ever impacts Towns (the absolute dream "Next Summer of Lebron" target for me) but LaVine 38 minutes per game? Wiggins 37?
Hitdog still rambling on with his "culture" obsession. Wtf, man. Get a grip. Every freaking NBA thread has to have at least one hitdog post on culture. Ok, we get it. The Nets are the culture front runners of the NBA and every single player wants to play for them because of that awesome culture. Can you move on now and find another weird ass thing to obsess about?
I prefer to gamble on greatness so the chance of a top 3 pick Im not giving up for Lavine. If you told me we have the 6/7 pick after the lottery and can move that for Lavine (which I think is actually plausible), I'd have to think about it. If you do that, you're effectively committing to maxing him out the following offseason. Maybe you get one more top 10 pick and then the guys are too mature to get back into the lottery like that. KP-Lavine-Willy-2018 pick.
I wouldnt throw a tantrum if the team scouts Lavine as worth the pick. It would lock us into a youth movement, which I like.
Carrol and Teague both looked like they've dropped off since leaving Atlanta.
No ones saying THJR is a superstar. That doesn't happen. Players who aren't going to be stars don't turn magically into stars. They play better in better situations. THJR is more efficient and is averaging more assists. Can you really argue that? Those are facts. He's the same exact player, he's just contributing more efficiently in a better environment.
Baze has actually been playing pretty well since he slumped to start the year. And he was on a good team before, those Warriors teams were in the playoffs. He's just better in a better environment (compared to the mark Jackson warriors, not Steve Kerr).
Did i not say that role players play better on winning teams?
my point was beaides millsap he mentioned a bunch of role players that benefited from the system they run and the culture of a good team..
good teams breed good role players, look at the spurs they can win games sitting their stars because their players know ther roles and their system...
give me the player besides schroeder that the hawks have developed from the draft to be a big time player?
Schroeder i give you because he has been good this year
draft class has been utter garbage but anyone notice how well Juancho (Willy's brother) has played in limited minutes? Looks like a really nice pick by Denver at 15th in a meh draft.
are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
you just mentioned a bunch of role players..
guess what when you play on a good team your role players look better especially with a good head coach..
porzingis has not improved?
and please stop with hardaway jr, he is the same player, he is a scorer and thats it he does nothing else well..
millsap was a good player with utah as well, you want to say he improved hia 3 point shot? isnt that the player adding to his game to fit the offense?
bazemore looks like dog shit this year, he got a big contract and has regressed...
You are making my point for me. Having a good head coach maximizes a players talent and puts them in the correct roles. Bud does that.
I personally don't think Porzingis has improved signifcantly since he came in the league. I'd feel alot better with him being developed by Budenholzer than the Knicks situation.
As for Millsap, he became an all star since he came to Atlanta. I know the east is weaker, but that's not just because he's shooting 3s. And if he's addding to his game to fit the offense- that's positive from a good system Atlanta runs.
I really don't understand how this is a debate. You wouldn't trade Derek Fisher/ Hornacek for Budenholzer? He's a top NBA coach that wins every year.
I prefer to gamble on greatness so the chance of a top 3 pick Im not giving up for Lavine. If you told me we have the 6/7 pick after the lottery and can move that for Lavine (which I think is actually plausible), I'd have to think about it. If you do that, you're effectively committing to maxing him out the following offseason. Maybe you get one more top 10 pick and then the guys are too mature to get back into the lottery like that. KP-Lavine-Willy-2018 pick.
I wouldnt throw a tantrum if the team scouts Lavine as worth the pick. It would lock us into a youth movement, which I like.
I wouldn't even think of moving a top 3 pick for him but I do think when you get to the 6-8 range that LaVine's odds of being an all-star are at least as high as any of the guys who will be there. This is a good draft but it's not filled with 10 HOF prospects. If LaVine were somehow thrown back into the draft he'd likely go in the 4-8 range and would be a scouts call.
is easily one of my least favorite Knicks ever. Mr. Excuse
Its a relief be on the road together, build that bond weve been trying to build the entire year, coming here in nice weather, loosens guys up and makes them feel good, said Rose, wearing his Hollywood shades.
i said those players look better because of great coaching and a good team..
bit you cant say they developed players if most of their players are free agent signings or trades...
and pirzingis has not added anything seriously? better shooter and added 5 more ppg to his average..next thing is for him to add some trength and be abetter rebounder
My point was bazemore, carol and Teague were on winning teams before (counting the old Hawks regime) and after being under the bud-Hawks and haven't played as well when not playing under him.
Hitdog still rambling on with his "culture" obsession. Wtf, man. Get a grip. Every freaking NBA thread has to have at least one hitdog post on culture. Ok, we get it. The Nets are the culture front runners of the NBA and every single player wants to play for them because of that awesome culture. Can you move on now and find another weird ass thing to obsess about?
had no idea Rose lived in LA during the off-season. Must really miss his kid being so far away...
If they bring him back that is nail in the coffin for me as a Knicks fan. From an entertainment perspective he's awful to watch, he doesn't play hard, always has an excuse, and straight up skipped an NBA game without notice. I can't believe he's still on the team.
LA is where the "rape' accusation occurred with Rose and friends.
It's crazy how many NBA guys live in LA in the offseason. I can't say I blame them. Aside from being a marquee franchise, this is why the Lakers will be able to rebuild quickly if they are run correctly. Players love it there- great weather, blend in with other celebs, get to live in mansions with privacy...Not too shabby.
My point was bazemore, carol and Teague were on winning teams before (counting the old Hawks regime) and after being under the bud-Hawks and haven't played as well when not playing under him.
teague i will give you, i forgot they drafted him..
carroll is what he is, a 3 and d glue guy..
bazemore i think is overpaid and never deserved that contract, they didnt pay carroll to play bazemore them overpaid him
had no idea Rose lived in LA during the off-season. Must really miss his kid being so far away...
If they bring him back that is nail in the coffin for me as a Knicks fan. From an entertainment perspective he's awful to watch, he doesn't play hard, always has an excuse, and straight up skipped an NBA game without notice. I can't believe he's still on the team.
LA is where the "rape' accusation occurred with Rose and friends.
It's crazy how many NBA guys live in LA in the offseason. I can't say I blame them. Aside from being a marquee franchise, this is why the Lakers will be able to rebuild quickly if they are run correctly. Players love it there- great weather, blend in with other celebs, get to live in mansions with privacy...Not too shabby.
players live in la in the summer for the beautiful weather and most trainers that the nba players use are based in la..
for example rose and westbrook use the same la based trainer
RE: Tyree where did i say bud is not a good head coach?
i said those players look better because of great coaching and a good team..
bit you cant say they developed players if most of their players are free agent signings or trades...
and pirzingis has not added anything seriously? better shooter and added 5 more ppg to his average..next thing is for him to add some trength and be abetter rebounder
Why can't you develop players you trade or sign? My point is Bud is a great coach/ developer who maximizes the talent on his team. I can't say the same for the Knicks recently.
My hate for the Knicks is at an all time high right now so take this with a grain of salt, but I can't credit the Knicks with any improvement of KP. If anything I think they have helped him develop some shitty habits- shot selection and team defense specifically.
My point was bazemore, carol and Teague were on winning teams before (counting the old Hawks regime) and after being under the bud-Hawks and haven't played as well when not playing under him.
teague i will give you, i forgot they drafted him..
carroll is what he is, a 3 and d glue guy..
bazemore i think is overpaid and never deserved that contract, they didnt pay carroll to play bazemore them overpaid him
What does drafting them have to do with anything? The point is all these guys have hit their peak under the Bud-Hawks.
Bazemore was on a playoff team before Atlanta. So was Carol. Carrol and Teague were on playoff teams after Atlanta and both fell off.
I really don't understand how this is blasphemy to say there are teams with proven track records of getting the most of their players. I don't see how it'd shocking at all.
is that none of their starters decide to skip a game to fly home without telling anyone where they're going. It's something they do better than the Knicks.
unprovable. How can you argue a player can you only be developed by the team he is drafted by? One player can't be drafted and tenured by two teams. In fact, the ONLY way to compare how a team develops players is if you have seen them on multiple teams.
My point was bazemore, carol and Teague were on winning teams before (counting the old Hawks regime) and after being under the bud-Hawks and haven't played as well when not playing under him.
teague i will give you, i forgot they drafted him..
carroll is what he is, a 3 and d glue guy..
bazemore i think is overpaid and never deserved that contract, they didnt pay carroll to play bazemore them overpaid him
What does drafting them have to do with anything? The point is all these guys have hit their peak under the Bud-Hawks.
Bazemore was on a playoff team before Atlanta. So was Carol. Carrol and Teague were on playoff teams after Atlanta and both fell off.
I really don't understand how this is blasphemy to say there are teams with proven track records of getting the most of their players. I don't see how it'd shocking at all.
bevause i dont see how the hawks are considered this great well run team..
they are the definition of a treadmill team...
the spurs are a great well run team that develops players..
the warriors ate a great run team that develops players..
turning players off the scrap heap and turning them into role players is not some great development to me, sorry i just dont think so
With JT III being canned by Georgetown today, how awesome would it be for Ewing to get that job? Imagine if both Ewing and Mullin could turn their respective schools back into winners.....those matchups could be great.
if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
I really have no idea where you are going with this. How is that relevant at all? Bud inherited a team with good players (but not superstars) and won 60 games with them 2 years later.
What does being stuck with a team with average talent have remotely anything to do with player development?
hawks have a great head coach that gets the moat out of his players
Certainly is a big downside. But comparatively he's like what, 1 year older than josh Jackson?
His WS/48 is about the same as KPs and he's the same age.
There are key differences. KP hasnt made his leap yet, like ZL did this year. Everyone's got that leap in them. KP has a year less on him. KP doesnt currently have a major knee injury. And he's just a different prospect -- still physically not remotely done, YOU HOPE. A unicorn shooter/rim protector. I just think there is a lot more projectability on KP. I.e. I can tell myself a story that he's going to get a lot better and be an unstoppable volume shooter who murders defenses. ZL it's a different story. Still a good one.
But in any event, if we were a year out of giving KP 40 million/per and this is what he was after THREE seasons, I wouldnt be doing backflips. I'd be worried
RE: hawks have a great head coach that gets the moat out of his players
but i dont view thebhawks as this team that just develops players, sorry i dont
Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Again, where was this superstar that was in Atlanta that the Hawks failed to capitalize on? There hasn't been one player on the Hawks sine Wilkins that even sniffs the pedigree of the guys the Spurs and warriors had.
if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
I really have no idea where you are going with this. How is that relevant at all? Bud inherited a team with good players (but not superstars) and won 60 games with them 2 years later.
What does being stuck with a team with average talent have remotely anything to do with player development?
because he said the hawks are a much better run organization than the knicks, fine...
so i asked him if the knicks became the hawks are you then happy with the job phil did? so if this knicks team got the 5th seed and then they brought everyone back and got the 5th seed every year and won 1 round, are you happy?
my point being if you think the hawks are such a great well run organization then you must be happy with that
With JT III being canned by Georgetown today, how awesome would it be for Ewing to get that job? Imagine if both Ewing and Mullin could turn their respective schools back into winners.....those matchups could be great.
Dont think the Jesuits can hire after the Gold Club trial.
RE: RE: hawks have a great head coach that gets the moat out of his players
but i dont view thebhawks as this team that just develops players, sorry i dont
Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Again, where was this superstar that was in Atlanta that the Hawks failed to capitalize on? There hasn't been one player on the Hawks sine Wilkins that even sniffs the pedigree of the guys the Spurs and warriors had.
so the warriors didnt develop curry thompson or green who was a second round pick for that matter?
the spurs didnt develop leonard who was a mid round pick or parker or ginobli who were 2md round picks?
if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
you would? how is that fun to watch knowing your team will never sniff a championship? and really have no avenue to get there
Certainly is a big downside. But comparatively he's like what, 1 year older than josh Jackson?
His WS/48 is about the same as KPs and he's the same age.
There are key differences. KP hasnt made his leap yet, like ZL did this year. Everyone's got that leap in them. KP has a year less on him. KP doesnt currently have a major knee injury. And he's just a different prospect -- still physically not remotely done, YOU HOPE. A unicorn shooter/rim protector. I just think there is a lot more projectability on KP. I.e. I can tell myself a story that he's going to get a lot better and be an unstoppable volume shooter who murders defenses. ZL it's a different story. Still a good one.
But in any event, if we were a year out of giving KP 40 million/per and this is what he was after THREE seasons, I wouldnt be doing backflips. I'd be worried
Why is a 21 year old permitted only one "leap"? Everyone thought GF made his "leap" until this year came along. He made a second one. Same thing with Davis.
Here for a better position comp. what about derozan? He made his "leap" year 2 and then stagnated, until he was 24 he made his second "leap" and became an all star.
And then comes this year and he's on another level, a third mini-leap so to speak. A top 3 SG. From a physical perspective, what does derozan have that Lavine doesn't? 2 inches? I think lavine more than makes up for it as a crazy 3 point shooter and a pretty good passer for a 2 guard. I can easily see lavine as an all star one day if he was in the EC (maybe west too, he has more talent than say, Gordon Hayward, who made it).
I guess if you're really concerned about the knee injury, but he's not the only player to have torn his acl before. I don't think it's jabari Parker bad, who had injury issues even before his first tear. I'd be worried if we were trading the pick for Parker, lavines seems more of a freak thing.
if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
you would? how is that fun to watch knowing your team will never sniff a championship? and really have no avenue to get there
Over the garbage they are currently producing? Yes it would be fun. You keep building off success and hopefully you catch lighting in the bottle like the Mavs did. Bud is a great coach who I would love to have for the Knicks. This is only his 4th year with the team. Give him time.
if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
you would? how is that fun to watch knowing your team will never sniff a championship? and really have no avenue to get there
You never know, maybe Lebron will decide to play baseball for a year or 2 and you'll sneak into the finals!
With JT III being canned by Georgetown today, how awesome would it be for Ewing to get that job? Imagine if both Ewing and Mullin could turn their respective schools back into winners.....those matchups could be great.
I'd love to see that. He has paid his dues as an assistant. I think that Georgetown could become a powerhouse again. In a hotbed for talent, a great school in the middle of the city with no football power, and a great tradition.
1. Considering just *how* toxic this roster and its "leadership" is (Melo and Rose, the latter being one of my least favorite Knicks of all time), I think KP making material progress at all this season should be encouraging.
2. Conditional on KP still having franchise player upside (and I still he does), we should be optimistic about this draft. While it seems to lack generational type talents (few drafts ever do have one), it is very, very deep in players with genuine All-Star potential. If we keep losing, we're gonna have a shot at one.
RE: RE: RE: hawks have a great head coach that gets the moat out of his players
but i dont view thebhawks as this team that just develops players, sorry i dont
Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Again, where was this superstar that was in Atlanta that the Hawks failed to capitalize on? There hasn't been one player on the Hawks sine Wilkins that even sniffs the pedigree of the guys the Spurs and warriors had.
so the warriors didnt develop curry thompson or green who was a second round pick for that matter?
the spurs didnt develop leonard who was a mid round pick or parker or ginobli who were 2md round picks?
Talent trumps everything. Didn't say they weren't developed. I'm just saying shit needs to change with the Knicks.
Like say if Jimmy Butler was in SA instead of Kawhi. Do you think they'd be much worse, if at all?
I'm confident with the way things are going KP will be an all star. But I don't want his ceiling to stop at say, Kevin love. I want him to become like Dirk (I know, selfish me). Things need to change to foster that type of development. That comes from a coaching standpoint, a roster standpoint, the entire organization. That's the overall point I wanted to make.
Isaac, Tatum, smith or Jackson to trade for lavine, but if we're looking at Monk, fox, frenchy I 100% would do it. Markannen is the gray area, I probably would do to positional fit.
more than implied the other day that the locker room/chemistry was not good.
1. He's known to have a strong relationship with Melo so I doubt it's aimed at him (not that Melo is such an amazing leader).
2. For all of these "high quality pros" they brought in (Noah, Lee, Lance Thomas (already here), Sasha (already here) pretty clearly something is off. You can assume he doesn't mean Baker/Kuz/Willy. So if you come back with much of the same team I'd expect very similar results.
more than implied the other day that the locker room/chemistry was not good.
1. He's known to have a strong relationship with Melo so I doubt it's aimed at him (not that Melo is such an amazing leader).
2. For all of these "high quality pros" they brought in (Noah, Lee, Lance Thomas (already here), Sasha (already here) pretty clearly something is off. You can assume he doesn't mean Baker/Kuz/Willy. So if you come back with much of the same team I'd expect very similar results.
This is just based off quotes and on court body language, but it seems like KP's relationship is different with Melo this year. I think he may be tired of playing with him. Who knows though but it seems different this year. Isn't as effusive with his praise of Melo.
Hitdog still rambling on with his "culture" obsession. Wtf, man. Get a grip. Every freaking NBA thread has to have at least one hitdog post on culture. Ok, we get it. The Nets are the culture front runners of the NBA and every single player wants to play for them because of that awesome culture. Can you move on now and find another weird ass thing to obsess about?
you my friend are a stalker- quite strange.
The Nets fan that shows up on Knicks threads everyday to randomly pick a spot to throw around his "culture" post of the day is calling someone else "quite strange", lol. Classic.
Certainly is a big downside. But comparatively he's like what, 1 year older than josh Jackson?
His WS/48 is about the same as KPs and he's the same age.
There are key differences. KP hasnt made his leap yet, like ZL did this year. Everyone's got that leap in them. KP has a year less on him. KP doesnt currently have a major knee injury. And he's just a different prospect -- still physically not remotely done, YOU HOPE. A unicorn shooter/rim protector. I just think there is a lot more projectability on KP. I.e. I can tell myself a story that he's going to get a lot better and be an unstoppable volume shooter who murders defenses. ZL it's a different story. Still a good one.
But in any event, if we were a year out of giving KP 40 million/per and this is what he was after THREE seasons, I wouldnt be doing backflips. I'd be worried
Why is a 21 year old permitted only one "leap"? Everyone thought GF made his "leap" until this year came along. He made a second one. Same thing with Davis.
Here for a better position comp. what about derozan? He made his "leap" year 2 and then stagnated, until he was 24 he made his second "leap" and became an all star.
And then comes this year and he's on another level, a third mini-leap so to speak. A top 3 SG. From a physical perspective, what does derozan have that Lavine doesn't? 2 inches? I think lavine more than makes up for it as a crazy 3 point shooter and a pretty good passer for a 2 guard. I can easily see lavine as an all star one day if he was in the EC (maybe west too, he has more talent than say, Gordon Hayward, who made it).
I guess if you're really concerned about the knee injury, but he's not the only player to have torn his acl before. I don't think it's jabari Parker bad, who had injury issues even before his first tear. I'd be worried if we were trading the pick for Parker, lavines seems more of a freak thing.
Anthony Davis made one leap really, in year 2. Got better year 3 but I dont think it was a leap. I dont think Derozan made a leap in year 2. I think he got more minutes. He did make a leap at age 24.
Giannis is a freak. A rarity. I wouldnt bet on Lavine being Giannis, or anyone making two significant leaps. Just my rule of thumb. I think you can argue that Lavine did NOT make a leap yet though. I think his game smartened up. But yeah, maybe next season is the leap year and he becomes a 21 PER player.
I still wouldnt move our pick for him. I want my balls in play for the top 2 PGs, given that the fallback is guys I like on better contracts. Thought they can bust. If Melo was 26 instead of old, and we had KP and Willy, I'd say it was right to go for Lavine and make a go of it.
I happened to catch a segment where KP was mic'd up
during a recent game, and was blown away by the way he coaches the other young guys on the team. He was out there with guys like Plumlee and Baker and was teaching them little tricks to get better shots in the offense. He is going to blossom into a real leader once Melo and Rose are shown the door. Looking forward to that.
I'm not worried about the contract because who exactly will the Knicks pay big bucks to besides their own guys over the foreseeable future.
Like if something like that was on the table and we took monk I'd be pissed. Like what is monk except Lavine but 3 inches shorter? There's enough risk with fox where I'd take the salary/knee risk on lavine over a PG with spacing issues.
Wolves would do it to get more complimentary pieces around Wiggins/towns, who will also be getting paid pretty soon too.
You draft like Markannen and bridges next to Wiggins and towns and you're onto something big there. Lavine/Wiggins doesn't seem like it would work out.
and Rose have to go in order for us to move forward. As much as I rail against Joakim Noah at least the guy has a very strong rep as a teammate/worker. The deal will still suck but we need new leadership. I don't see any way I'm enthused for next season with Melo still here. I'll watch of course, and the high pick will be fun to watch but if Melo is here we will be "dreaming" about 7-8 seeds vs. dreaming of being "really good" 2 years from now.
more than implied the other day that the locker room/chemistry was not good.
1. He's known to have a strong relationship with Melo so I doubt it's aimed at him (not that Melo is such an amazing leader).
2. For all of these "high quality pros" they brought in (Noah, Lee, Lance Thomas (already here), Sasha (already here) pretty clearly something is off. You can assume he doesn't mean Baker/Kuz/Willy. So if you come back with much of the same team I'd expect very similar results.
Re 1.: I think Melo is probably a good guy, which is why he seems well liked around the league. He's also not a good leader. His lack of defensive effort is a leadership failure. I dont think good guy and star must mean you're a leader. Melo seems cut out to be a member of a super team, and not the big dog.
Re 2.: Not in the room, but I cant say. Losing can be toxic but it doesnt get this bad most places. Things really, really seemed to fall apart when Noah went down. I suspect you cant do much leading in street clothes. But Rose seems like a doosh, Jackson is fucking with the team, and Hornacek appears to be pissing off the players (could be him, or trying to be a triangle guy).
I'd say Strahan was a good example of #1 for most of his career. He was always popular with his teammates but wasn't much of a leader until the end of his career. On those very good Fox-led defenses, Armstead was the leader, not Strahan.
Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
RE: I happened to catch a segment where KP was mic'd up
during a recent game, and was blown away by the way he coaches the other young guys on the team. He was out there with guys like Plumlee and Baker and was teaching them little tricks to get better shots in the offense. He is going to blossom into a real leader once Melo and Rose are shown the door. Looking forward to that.
Love to hear that, thanks for sharing.
All accounts are that Hornacek yells at KP but refuses to get on Rose or Melo. Guys notice that and probably lose a lot of respect for Hornacek. On top of that, they see him doing a 180 on the offense with the triangle and are probably confused and think less of Hornacek.
I hate to say it, but the more Hornacek coaches, the more his one successful year looks like an outlier. They are some horror stories from Phoenix with the team essentially quitting on him and it appears the same has happened this year.
It won't happen unfortunately, but I would love a clean start next year from Jackson, Hornacek, Melo, and Rose. Bring in a competent experienced GM who brings his own coach. I sure as well would be excited.
Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
Smith's jump-shot is something NBA teams will want to scrutinize more closely in private settings, to get a better read on how it might translate to the pro level. On one hand, he improved his 3-point percentages this season, making 36% of his attempts, many of them coming while pulling off the dribble and from well beyond the NBA line. He is a shot-maker who you can't necessarily go underneath screens on consistently with confidence, but was wildly inconsistent in this area as a freshman, having ten games in which he made between three to five three-pointers, and nine games in which he couldn't connect on a single attempt. While Smith has clearly progressed with his jumper, getting red-hot at times and making a barrage of difficult attempts, there are still question marks about this part of his game, as he's only converted 32% of his career 349 attempts in games we have in our database. He is a very jump-reliant shooter, often holding onto the ball too long, and shooting on his way down. He connected on just 71% of his free attempts this season, and is a career 72% from the charity stripe (511 attempts). Scouts also have question marks about Smith's defense, specifically the role he played in N.C. State ranking dead last in the ACC in this category. There's no doubt that Smith has the physical tools to be very good on this end of the floor if he wants to be, with his strong frame, quick feet, and solid anticipation skills that allowed him to get in the passing lanes frequently. He'll show you flashes of that at times, heating up the ball impressively, fighting over screens, and walling off penetration, but would never really sustain this for more than a few seconds at a time, relaxing in his stance as soon as the ball was swung the other way. More often than not, Smith would stand completely upright on the perimeter off the ball, appearing to just be going through the motions waiting for the opposing team's possession to end. He doesn't have the type of length required to make up for his poor fundamentals and intensity-level, as his mediocre 6'3 wingspan will always make him a one-position defender regardless. With all that said, there is still quite a bit to like about Smith's talent level, as guards with his combination of speed, power, explosiveness and creativity with the ball are what make modern-day NBA offenses go, and the situation at N.C. State was far from ideal. He will undoubtedly look better with NBA caliber talent surrounding him and better guidance coming from the sidelines, and will very likely put up big numbers if given the keys to a team's offense. Smith's ability to help a NBA team win games, and the affect he might have on an organization's culture, are issues that will he will continue to plague him until he can prove otherwise, and will likely drag his stock down a bit relative to some of his peers over the course of the draft process. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/dennis-smith-nba-draft-scouting-report-and-video-analysis-5836/ DraftExpress Link - ( New Window )
Rambis staying on the staff was the first red flag for Hornacek
just like Houston and Mills staying on was the first red flag for Phil Jackson. Hornacek will coach the old "four corners" offense at this point if it means saving his job. Next head coaching job for him is in college, and he knows it.
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
SANTA MONICA, Calif. Kristaps Porzingis was the first to see something and say something when he expressed that despite the Knicks early-season success, something was missing. The second-year big man proved to have great foresight.
I think it was pretty easy to tell from the inside that were not that good of a team, Porzingis said after Sundays practice. We can win games based off of our talent, but thats not going to last long, and thats exactly what happened.
With Carmelo Anthony, Rose and Porzingis, the Knicks thought they could be one of the top teams in the East and be able to make some noise in the playoffs. But Rose lamented that they never developed chemistry. We didnt click, he said. We didnt have that connection that we wanted throughout the season. You need that to go far in this league.
Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
Thought on what?
Trashed NYC. Called it dirty, loud etc
A kid from Ohio saying that about NYC? Doesn't surprise me.
To be honest I grew up in the area and I sometimes feel that way about NY.
But at the same time, I can see why an NBA star living in the city might have a little bit of a different experience than me lol.
Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
you read KP's previous comments...
"We shouldve been playing it from the beginning of the season, Porzingis said. Were a little behind. I dont know when we can finally start using it properly and making an impact.
The whole first season we played nothing but the triangle. I know it pretty well. I like the offense. It can only work if everyone believes in it and everyone executes it the right way. Were starting to learn it the way we should."
It's clear they weren't on the same page. He's too classy to call guys out.
But if we are talking about upside (as I hope the Knicks are doing) it's right up there with the top 3 guys. The flags are the only things keeping him apart, and there are reasons to talk yourself/into and out of him if you so want to.
I would love to have Smith. I think all things considered- coming off ACL tear, coach being fired, he had a pretty good year. I think it could be one of those situations where he is a steal in the 5-7 range.
That scouting report felt a little nitpicky to me. Most college freshman struggle defensively. The mechanics of his shot look fine to me- especially compared to Fox. I could see him being an all star point guard. Good size for the position, can finish in traffic, looks to get others involved, and has a good jumper. I would love him for the Knicks but not sure "he fits the triangle".
He's not a PnR guy right now but I think he has the skillet to be a great one. I think it's criminal if we dont try to be a PnR team with KP and Willy here.
That's why the triangle makes me so sad. It's not the best offense for what we have.
In any event, hat tip to hitdog, whatever we do has me worried because the culture seems rotten to the core. Take Rose and Melo off the team and you still have shitbag Dolan doing whatever he does to make the Knicks a team loathed by media and fans who come near it, and a turnstile for coaches and executives. You still have Jackson tweeting and undermining his coaches. It's tough to get excited.
Courtney Lee has an opinion as to why the Knicks defense sucks... they practice against the triangle... the offense nobody else exclusively runs. Makes sense to me Phil!
Wow - I might actually tune in, then. I don't hate Lance Thomas, but it's hard not to laugh when he thinks he can hit a floater or put a move on someone.
I read and watch of Smith the more I like. I'd be happy with him or Fox honestly. But, I really love Jackson and Tatum. Which means we'll end up with the kid from France.
Looks like scouts are catching onto DJ Wilson now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC9N6VZXkTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di-UuCz5vXI
Cool thanks for those links. Yeah like I said at the time I admittedly am spotty with my college basketball watching outside of watching the projected top picks (until the tourney at least) but sometimes you throw on a game, see a guy who looks like he could be an NBA player, look him up and not see much about him. Wilson caught my eye. Moves really well for that height and 3 point range. I'm a fan. I'd absolutely be interested in the 2nd round. 7'3 wingspan. Very intriguing name in the 2nd. Not sure what went into his improvement but very interesting skillset
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
SANTA MONICA, Calif. Kristaps Porzingis was the first to see something and say something when he expressed that despite the Knicks early-season success, something was missing. The second-year big man proved to have great foresight.
I think it was pretty easy to tell from the inside that were not that good of a team, Porzingis said after Sundays practice. We can win games based off of our talent, but thats not going to last long, and thats exactly what happened.
With Carmelo Anthony, Rose and Porzingis, the Knicks thought they could be one of the top teams in the East and be able to make some noise in the playoffs. But Rose lamented that they never developed chemistry. We didnt click, he said. We didnt have that connection that we wanted throughout the season. You need that to go far in this league.
Is there a quote I'm missing because nowhere does he discuss the lockerroom chemistry. Everything he says is on the court.
Jennings basically echos what much of BBI thinks is the case-
It was just too much going on behind the scenes that I didnt understand.
It was just different. Every day it was just something different, Jennings said. It was just like, if we could just stick to what we could do, well be fine. So at times, youd just come into practice and you didnt know what was going on.
Anybody who is watching the game, you know if youre watching the game. When the ball got to the pinch post it was never. , Jennings said, speaking in general terms. You got Derrick Rose, who can score, who can do things. You have (Porzingis). Guys could never really find their shots or find their rhythm. So it was like, somethings wrong with that. You have Derrick Rose who can get to the rim with ease and score. But even he was out there lost. Thats how I looked at it. I looked at it that he didnt know what was going on. KP, he was trying to come into his second year trying to find himself, and he couldnt really find a rhythm either. So its definitely difficult.
People can knock Jennings but I think he's on the ball across the board here
still trying to understand what prompted the Knicks to decide focusing on guarding the triangle in practice was a good idea? Courtney Lee flat out said it caused problems. It's not their only issue defensively but it sure adds to the premise Phil is totally triangle obsessed.
Derrick Rose didn't have much of a problem scoring or getting his shot this season. He had a problem doing everything else other than that.
For all of the incessant focus on the triangle, the issue is simple... these guys just aren't that fucking good. The triangle or the "culture" are just excuses.
I probably take Swanigan over Wilson just because I think you can go "small" with Swanigan at center and not sacrifice physicality and rebounding (think he has like a 7'5" wingspan).
But man I'd get excited over our 2nd round pick, seems to be a lot of big name college players that might slip. Don't know how much will translate, but it just seems deeper than normal years for some reason.
didn't really watch last night but looks like Randle had a solid game. He's shown some "legit NBA player" flashes.
Not really sure what happened to giving Ndour burn but the last 2 games he's started at center and has averaged 25 and 10,... maybe give the guy a look? Why not?
I probably take Swanigan over Wilson just because I think you can go "small" with Swanigan at center and not sacrifice physicality and rebounding (think he has like a 7'5" wingspan).
But man I'd get excited over our 2nd round pick, seems to be a lot of big name college players that might slip. Don't know how much will translate, but it just seems deeper than normal years for some reason.
It's always a tough call with guys like Swanigan (I was a massive Millsap fan in college) and yet similar "okay" athlete bigs often fail but like Millsap the production from Swanigan is top notch. I'd honestly be happy with either one in the second round. If we could come out of the draft with one of Smith, Isaac, Tatum, Markkanen + one of Swanigan or Wilson you won't see me complaining. We will go for 2 young talented pieces to 4.
KP said the lockerroom was toxic or there was any problem in the lockerroom because thats what you said yesterday. Is there another quote that you didn't link or something. Everything KP says is about their on the court chemistry which is obvious. I don't think there are any issues with the lockerroom chemistry, I do think there are major issues with how they mesh. There can't be 2 guys that have no interest in defense. There can't be 2 guys that only score and don't help in any other aspect of the game. This has nothing to do with how they mesh off the court.
KP said the lockerroom was toxic or there was any problem in the lockerroom because thats what you said yesterday. Is there another quote that you didn't link or something. Everything KP says is about their on the court chemistry which is obvious. I don't think there are any issues with the lockerroom chemistry, I do think there are major issues with how they mesh. There can't be 2 guys that have no interest in defense. There can't be 2 guys that only score and don't help in any other aspect of the game. This has nothing to do with how they mesh off the court.
After the Clippers game he was asked about team chemistry and he flat out said "we didn't come together as a team, not everyone was on board". You want to believe that's just on the court that's cool but I don't. I know for a FACT from a writer that Rose/Melo did not have ANY off court relationship which (and this part is MY opinion) likely helped fracture the locker room. Primary ball handler and "#2" scorer and the "franchise player" not being "cool" is not good to begin with but when you bring in a bunch of "Rose guys" it likely makes matters worse in the locker room.
KP more than implied the other day that the locker room/chemistry was not good.
Just so we are clear, this is the quote I'm referencing. KP was strictly talking about on the court chemistry, as was Jennings. It doesn't take a rocket scientest to see there is none, lol.
KP said the lockerroom was toxic or there was any problem in the lockerroom because thats what you said yesterday. Is there another quote that you didn't link or something. Everything KP says is about their on the court chemistry which is obvious. I don't think there are any issues with the lockerroom chemistry, I do think there are major issues with how they mesh. There can't be 2 guys that have no interest in defense. There can't be 2 guys that only score and don't help in any other aspect of the game. This has nothing to do with how they mesh off the court.
After the Clippers game he was asked about team chemistry and he flat out said "we didn't come together as a team, not everyone was on board". You want to believe that's just on the court that's cool but I don't. I know for a FACT from a writer that Rose/Melo did not have ANY off court relationship which (and this part is MY opinion) likely helped fracture the locker room. Primary ball handler and "#2" scorer and the "franchise player" not being "cool" is not good to begin with but when you bring in a bunch of "Rose guys" it likely makes matters worse in the locker room.
That's why I asked you for the quote. I was curious to see the quote and when I asked you, you posted a quote about him saying there was no chemistry on the court.
was told flat out "Melo and Rose do not speak off the court". Then consider we added Noah because of Rose, Lee because of Noah and Holiday another "Rose" guy and imagine what they locker room must be like? Throw in Phil/Hornacek dynamic, Rambis still around like a cockroach. There was more going on then simply being unable to learn the triangle.
because of their off the court relationship, or lack there of, it's so far off base. There are tons of examples in sports of guys not getting along and being just fine on the court. One has nothing to do with the other. Their games just don't mesh at all and that's the only problem. They both can do one thing, score and that's it. One guy can get to the rim with ease, the other can score from the outside. Neither does anything else other than help themselves score.
feel like Jennings quotes are pretty fair. I mean he's not going to take shots at guys and say "Well Rose is diminished and doesn't play defense". I know Jennings gets a bad rep but I think his quotes this season were among the most honest. Then again you have people like Tommy Dee quoting Sasha saying "the triangle practice was amazing" as proof the players enjoy it...
because of their off the court relationship, or lack there of, it's so far off base. There are tons of examples in sports of guys not getting along and being just fine on the court. One has nothing to do with the other. Their games just don't mesh at all and that's the only problem. They both can do one thing, score and that's it. One guy can get to the rim with ease, the other can score from the outside. Neither does anything else other than help themselves score.
? huh? The two things don't HAVE to go hand in hand but they absolutely can. "So far off base"? If players don't like each other it absolutely can spill onto the court. We "outsiders" have said Rose is looking to get paid at the expense of defense right? At the expense of other aspects of his game right? So stuff like that can't spill onto the court? Melo can't (and I'm not defending him) be turned off by the looks he gets with Rose? Melo hasn't really had to deal with a PG (while with the Knicks) dominating the ball. If we "all" talk about Melo being a ballstopper etc then someone like Rose couldn't crimp his style? You are speaking in very odd absolutes I must say.
shaq and kpbe flat out hated each other and how many championships did they win together?
and didnt rose and melo spend thanksgiving together? where is the they hated each other coming from?
Leadership is lacking on the Knicks and that comes from the top (Phil/Hornacek) however the Knicks player leadership "should" be coming from those 2 and if they don't have a relationship it absolutely can cause some turmoil. Melo is no angel (Amar'e recently took shots at him as well).
of guys in sports that don't get along off the court. 16 gave the most obvious.
2 1st ballot HOFers, 1 of which is one of the most competitive players in the history of pro sports vs. Rose looking to get paid and Melo? Not a fair comparison at all. They also had arguably the greatest coach of all time keeping them together not shrinking violet Jeff Hornacek with his daddy telling him to run the triangle.
Yeah, I remember when I had some problems with my family, (Kendrick Perkins) and him were the guys Id call and just vent to and talk to. I say this because me and my family are great now. Were in a good spot. But theres times where this life is real. We make a lot of money to take care of our family, but that doesnt mask all our problems. It may mask some, but it doesnt take them away. I was having problems with my family and I needed someone I could relate to and Russell and Perk were there. They were guys I leaned on. They told me to just keep my head up, words of encouragement. Me and Russ had talked about that stuff, but it wasnt as in depth. Then when I was vulnerable to him, it was like, yeah, this is someone I can lean on. It showed me a different side of him. Since then, weve been really tight. Theres times where we go at it. Theres times I dont like what hes doing out on the court, theres times where he hates what Im doing out on the court. Theres times where its Russ, you gotta control your attitude or KD, you gotta stop, you gotta speak up, whatever. Theres times we cuss each other out, but thats a part of being brothers. Because I know if I need something, hell be there and if I need to talk to someone outside of basketball, hell be there. Its a real brotherhood type relationship. We're like family.
they need to be friends or else they won't be able to play together. Is that what you are saying?
I'm suggesting Lebron James and Durant could despise each other and win a title. I'm suggesting a diminished Derrick Rose with a weak head coach/Phil Jackson situation and Melo doing his "thing" his entire time here very possibly helped fracture the team.
don't you think the bigger problem is that Melo is a shell of himself since his knee injury and Rose is diminished as a player? If they were better players, it would mean nothing.
don't you think the bigger problem is that Melo is a shell of himself since his knee injury and Rose is diminished as a player? If they were better players, it would mean nothing.
Melo likely wouldn't be giving Rose the side eye (not literally) if Rose were MVP Rose, no. Because Melo isn't a moron, he would know MVP Rose (or Westbrook etc) would help him toward his goal of winning a title in NY. It's obvious the current team quitting loser is not helping him toward anything.
how can anyone argue that. I don't care who you know. It's fractured because of the GM. It's fractured because of the HC. It's fractured because they aren't good and they all thought they were and said they were. It's fractured because they are the laughing stock of the league. It's fractured because the two biggest stars know they aren't welcomed back to NY. Of course it's fractured, my man.
yesterday both knocked the triangle calling it "random basketball" and said he would like to come back. He later said he doesn't care about money, he only cares about winning. Yeah, not a guy hoping to create a market...If winning were his #1 the Knicks wouldn't even be on his list.
only cares about money. He made that clear in Chicago when he sat out a full season and worried about his future finance after bball despite making $50M per year.
""Not even thinking money. I've got more than enough money saved. If I stopped playing basketball now, I'll be all right," Rose told reporters in Utah on Wednesday night. "I want to win. I want to be happy and feel at peace with myself wherever I'm at. But being at the negotiating table, you never know. I'm not going to negotiate with people where money is the No. 1 thing I'm asking for. I want to win."
if winning is #1 to him (it's not) he would instruct BJ Armstrong to not even speak to the Knicks. Where would you rank the Knicks in terms of "winning in 2018" odds? Other than the Kings and Nets are there really that many teams who "likely" will have lower odds of being good next year? I guess the Lakers. I mean it's a very short list.
Contestable. Maybe they won despite it not working, because LeBron is so f'ing amazing. It's staggering to me that Love's shooting percentage from 2 or 3 have not improved even a teensy bit in Cleveland, even on much lower volume and not being the #1 option. He has improvement at sub-levels (basically, 10 feet to <3 point), but that gets him no where because now he just takes those low percentage shots rather than getting position down low (massive decline in shots from w/in 3 feet).
It's really remarkable how Love's game diminished in Cleveland.
have been a hideous move for the Knicks but I gotta say PJ Tucker is a nice player to have on a good team. He's insanely strong and you can stick him on other teams top scorer. On the flip side, Ibaka has become the epitome of what a "Knicks player" looks like. Guy doesn't even defend the rim anymore, doesn't really work for rebounds. Someone is going to really regret giving him a monster deal.
Is it a big deal that Phil won't be live at the sweet 16 to scout the talent? On one hand I'd like him to be there, but on the other hand, do you really need to be there to scout?
need to find a few PJ Tucker types for this roster. Not soon to be 32 year old PJ Tucker but guys like that.
These guys really shine when you put them on a roster where they can play an appropriate role. And look flawed when they are on teams that must ask too much of them. Classic saga of the NBA role player.
parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
need to find a few PJ Tucker types for this roster. Not soon to be 32 year old PJ Tucker but guys like that.
These guys really shine when you put them on a roster where they can play an appropriate role. And look flawed when they are on teams that must ask too much of them. Classic saga of the NBA role player.
Deej,
1000% agree. I just love the way he commits to his role. I'd love to have a 22 year old version of him even on this bad roster. Defense can be contagious. Trading for him would have been pretty dumb but he's a solid player, I don't care what his PER says. He has one role and does it well.
RE: It's a dumb theory, but I'm ready to move on......
Is it a big deal that Phil won't be live at the sweet 16 to scout the talent? On one hand I'd like him to be there, but on the other hand, do you really need to be there to scout?
mills will be there with their svouts in memphis tonight
Is it a big deal that Phil won't be live at the sweet 16 to scout the talent? On one hand I'd like him to be there, but on the other hand, do you really need to be there to scout?
I think it would be nice, but Im sure we're scouting every game. They'll bring Phil the game tape of the guys they like. Post is portraying it as Phil blowing off his responsibilities, but if we knew one thing going into the Phil-era, it was that his physical condition was really going to limit his ability to make successive trips in a short span.
parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
YOU create this "hate" narrative. I was told they don't have "any relationship"/don't speak off the court. That's not the same thing.
parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
Not the Nets, they have the best culture in bball.
need to find a few PJ Tucker types for this roster. Not soon to be 32 year old PJ Tucker but guys like that.
These guys really shine when you put them on a roster where they can play an appropriate role. And look flawed when they are on teams that must ask too much of them. Classic saga of the NBA role player.
Deej,
1000% agree. I just love the way he commits to his role. I'd love to have a 22 year old version of him even on this bad roster. Defense can be contagious. Trading for him would have been pretty dumb but he's a solid player, I don't care what his PER says. He has one role and does it well.
Yeah, I said a few threads ago that I'd use one of the #2s on the biggest junkyard dog I could find. A strong, tenacious defender. Worry about lack of other skills later. Just a getting a guy like that into practices could pay huge dividends. His D could rub off. He could toughen up KP. etc.
pretty awful with the cap/trades. Is there any way for us to dump Melo on LAC without taking back Rivers?
difficult but not impossible. It will be easier to do something like that this summer once there's more cap space floating around the league that can be used to facilitate trades. In a perfect world, there's some other team out there that values Rivers enough to send you something back for him as part of a 3 or 4 way trade.
pretty awful with the cap/trades. Is there any way for us to dump Melo on LAC without taking back Rivers?
Would have to be around Crawford which would be worse than Rivers.
Crawford actually can be bought out for 3 million after next season. Doesn't really do anything for the Knicks though as Melo is going to opt out after next season so the only "upside" would be making the 2018 Knicks less talented, higher pick.
if Blake bolts. I dont know the latest on that situation. But I could see him running if they go nowhere again. Maybe go home to OKC. Unless he has already committed.
pretty awful with the cap/trades. Is there any way for us to dump Melo on LAC without taking back Rivers?
difficult but not impossible. It will be easier to do something like that this summer once there's more cap space floating around the league that can be used to facilitate trades. In a perfect world, there's some other team out there that values Rivers enough to send you something back for him as part of a 3 or 4 way trade.
Just seems on paper like the "best" spot for all parties. Clippers are seemingly going "all-in" on the Paul/Griffin/Jordan trio and we "know" Melo would agree to go there. I'm not getting hard over Brice Johnson, Diamond Stone and a 2022 1st round pick but it might be the best we can do.
if Blake bolts. I dont know the latest on that situation. But I could see him running if they go nowhere again. Maybe go home to OKC. Unless he has already committed.
OKC would have to be a sign-and-trade I think. The Clips are interesting. If they crash and burn out of the playoffs early this year, their team could look a lot different next summer.
wonder if Ndour playing center means anything? or just that the Westchester Knicks needed a center. He's only 6'9 and the Knicks talked him up as a wing defender type but back to back monster games. Why not give him a look>?
Speaking of the dleague I was curious if Brice Johnson showed any flashes, he only played a few games there but one game might be the worst line I've ever seen
15 minutes 1-7 from the field, -24 +/-, that seems almost impossible to pull off
take advantage of a desperate Indy team that wants to add a star to keep Paul George. Yea, it's likely a reallly bad fit for Indy, and Melo wouldn't even want to go there, but maybe the Knicks can get lucky for once?
just to buy him out, why not just buy out Melo? Unless they are willing to send future draft picks as well, even though that won't be til 2046.
Presumably they would be able to get a pick or 2 in a Melo deal. The Clippers would be a "very good" team for the next few seasons with that core and likely not too worried about their 2021 and 2023 1sts and/or their 2019, 2020 etc 2nds.
I cannot see any scenario where Melo goes to Indy.
I think it's one of the coasts or Cleveland. I'm hoping he opens up his list and a team like Washington can get involved(even though they'd be dumb to do it). Boston, Washington, California teams, Florida teams. Maybe Chicago if Wade stays.
take advantage of a desperate Indy team that wants to add a star to keep Paul George. Yea, it's likely a reallly bad fit for Indy, and Melo wouldn't even want to go there, but maybe the Knicks can get lucky for once?
I'm not sure Indy works for a bunch of reasons, but I do think that it's possible Melo opens up his list of acceptable destinations to more teams this summer.
the end of the day I'd still take back 2021 etc picks from LAC if that's all we could get. At that point maybe the Knicks get lucky and an aging Clippers team sucks. One can dream.
parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
YOU create this "hate" narrative. I was told they don't have "any relationship"/don't speak off the court. That's not the same thing.
and i say who gives a shit? if you cant be professional about it then i dont want them on the team...
Knicks are not/have not been run like a professional organization for a long time now. I don't mean this as a joke or dump on the Knicks thing. This is the truth. I'm not going down the "Phil does/doesn't" deserve credit for KP but imagine the Knicks if someone took KP before the Knicks? It could be argued if that were the case outside of the Nets (just due to their lack of picks) would be the ONLY organization in worse position than the Knicks. Knicks fans love to blame the media but the truth is they have been and continue to be a circus. Maybe next year will be different. Every hire/fire they do we always "assume the best". Look for positives and yet it's always the same result. I think the Mets are a perfect example/model for the Knicks
- Long time laughingstock with a lot of off field issues for years. Ones so unbelievable they sound Isola created
- Meddling owner
- Hired a big name "legend" to change up the culture
Can the Knicks follow the Mets path? I find it hard to believe because they have been so bad for so long and I've lost my confidence in Phil Jackson but lets hope.
Dan's analysis. That said, I think a Fultz or a Ball with KP would be enough for me to think that the foundations for a successful team are there.
Talent's an insufficient but necessary condition for being a contender; so is organizational culture. I think the former is far more important and much harder to secure.
It's definitely important. I really thought that's what Phil was coming in to do, but he's done the opposite. I'm willing to be patient and see the plan through, but he's made some bad decisions this season and I'm not talking personnel.
That being said, you can certainly have talent, a good team culture and players that aren't friends to have success.
I have a hard time being optimistic. If we hit a home run in the draft (say we move up to the top 3), are Phil/Dolan going to let this thing build on a slow burn, or are they going to demand that we "compete" ASAP? I still think the later.
Clips' 2021 pick unprotected would be intriguing, but I think the Nets/Lakers/Sacto experience, combined with the obvious potential for the Clips to be bad in 4 years, would inhibit them from trading it without lottery protections. In any event, it's a shitty return for Carmelo.
Dan's analysis. That said, I think a Fultz or a Ball with KP would be enough for me to think that the foundations for a successful team are there.
Talent's an insufficient but necessary condition for being a contender; so is organizational culture. I think the former is far more important and much harder to secure.
At the end of the day the draft will make/break us. The expectation is add good young talent and slowly things will change Dolan or not. I really wish I were confident Phil was willing to go "full rebuild". I don't even care about the triangle, run it, don't run it. Just don't treat the fans like morons. This is a bad team that won't be fixed with 1 good pick and chasing veteran FA's. If you nail this pick, maybe get a solid rotation guy in the second and maybe you sign a guy like Ian Clark (just using him as an example of a FA that makes sense).
Then maybe at this time NEXT season, we can both be a "bad" team but one with young talent, where next years pick is truly exciting, adding another high level talent to our existing core... maybe at that point you discuss these "veteran solid" FA types.
Dan's analysis. That said, I think a Fultz or a Ball with KP would be enough for me to think that the foundations for a successful team are there.
Talent's an insufficient but necessary condition for being a contender; so is organizational culture. I think the former is far more important and much harder to secure.
Agree. "Culture" is not some mystical thing that only a select few can implement. Hire smart people to run and coach the team, acquire talented players who work hard...and the culture will take care of itself.
I have a hard time being optimistic. If we hit a home run in the draft (say we move up to the top 3), are Phil/Dolan going to let this thing build on a slow burn, or are they going to demand that we "compete" ASAP? I still think the later.
Clips' 2021 pick unprotected would be intriguing, but I think the Nets/Lakers/Sacto experience, combined with the obvious potential for the Clips to be bad in 4 years, would inhibit them from trading it without lottery protections. In any event, it's a shitty return for Carmelo.
There is no denying barring a shocker the return for Melo will be underwhelming. I don't see any scenario where we are "wowed" by a Melo return. I keep parroting the same thing but at this point simply agreeing Rome wasn't built in a day, and at the very least using 2018 as a "rebuilding/development/assessment" season would be enough reason for me to be "excited" by most reasonable Melo returns (even a crap 2021 type pick headliner).
I'm apparently FAR more willing than most to give Phil another 15-16 months and see where we are then. I also don't give a shit about 99.99999% of what the basketball media has to say about the Knicks or the "culture" horseshit. As soon as the Knicks get good players and remove the selfish ones from their midst, the "culture" will change.
There are only 2 issues I have with Phil...
1 - Talk of adding free agents. None of this stuff is directly from Phil's mouth, so it's possible we could be wrong about this. However, I don't want to spend big money on ANY non-elite free agents.
2 - Phil's previous comments about the importance of a PG. I do wonder if he would pass on Smith or Fox for reasons having to do with the offensive system. But we'll get to that once we figure out the lottery order.
If we trade Melo, let Rose walk and don't sign any major FA's, then we are clearly going about it the right way. The answer is close.
This is the correct path. I'm just doubtful the follow it. I'm expecting them to let Rose walk and then make a hard run at a Holiday Brother combo package, followed by settling for 4 years 64 million for Jeff Teague. I'd sign tomorrow for Rose walking, Melo dealt and very minimal additions to the roster (I'd still look at some of the younger FA options if the price were right, Clark, Muscala types.
anyone understand the trade kicker that Melo is supposed to get? I remember hearing somewhere he makes like 3 mil more a year if he gets traded, so maybe that could help out in getting him to accept a trade. If he can pocket 3 mil more, get away from this circus, with an option to opt out should it not work out at the new home, he might accept a trade somewhere aside from LA or Cleveland. Although I don't know if he will even want to opt out, would someone really sign him for 25 mil + in two years just projecting him to be getting worse as he gets older and older?
If we trade Melo, let Rose walk and don't sign any major FA's, then we are clearly going about it the right way. The answer is close.
This is the correct path. I'm just doubtful the follow it. I'm expecting them to let Rose walk and then make a hard run at a Holiday Brother combo package, followed by settling for 4 years 64 million for Jeff Teague. I'd sign tomorrow for Rose walking, Melo dealt and very minimal additions to the roster (I'd still look at some of the younger FA options if the price were right, Clark, Muscala types.
I'm getting a little less confident as time goes on, but I still would choose to let Phil play it out rather than starting over at this point. Honestly, I think it's more Dolan than anything else, I think he will be pressuring this FO to put a winner out in their 3rd season.
RE: But he did draft KP and that wasn't a no-brainer.
I'm apparently FAR more willing than most to give Phil another 15-16 months and see where we are then. I also don't give a shit about 99.99999% of what the basketball media has to say about the Knicks or the "culture" horseshit. As soon as the Knicks get good players and remove the selfish ones from their midst, the "culture" will change.
There are only 2 issues I have with Phil...
1 - Talk of adding free agents. None of this stuff is directly from Phil's mouth, so it's possible we could be wrong about this. However, I don't want to spend big money on ANY non-elite free agents.
2 - Phil's previous comments about the importance of a PG. I do wonder if he would pass on Smith or Fox for reasons having to do with the offensive system. But we'll get to that once we figure out the lottery order.
I wasn't trying to take the KP pick credit away from Phil. My point was outside of that one moment/decision the Knicks remain a disaster. The off-season was horrendous but even if you don't share that view, the off-season suggested he felt the Knicks were going to be good this season. Didn't work. Doing "that" again would basically = Phil Jackson has no clue what he's doing. Not a single rational person could look at this team and aay "Jeff Teague at 4 years 60+ makes the Knicks a good team" The 2015 Knicks "thought" they would be good, weren't and drafted a potential stud, Phil spent big money on veterans with the idea the 2016-2017 Knicks would be "good", they weren't. Until we see evidence that Phil has given up on this idea then we have to assume that is what is going to happen again.
Again getting 2 all rookie players the last 2 years. Grant had value to other teams even after a mediocre year (and I was big fan of that pick).
I was fine with Lee signing. I think most fans were more than fine with going after Noah.
It's the valuation and direction I'm not fine with. Phil doesn't understand the potential of this team (or he has another agenda to act like it can compete). At the end of the day he wasn't paid the big bucks to do what Sam Hinkie did (who currently doesn't have a job in the NBA)
And while he was going after alright players, he went on a shopping spree with Dolan's wallet.
Let him handle the draft. Hell, I don't even think we'll sniff the big ticket items in free agency because
1) they will have more financial incentives with their current teams
2)they won't choose the Knicks over their current or other teams at the same prices
I don't think it's physically possible for phil to fuck up the Knicks situation anymore. Sure, I want a GM with the clear direction to rebuild, but I think there are limited ways to go about this offseason in general. So whatever, phil stays 1 more year and then we get a GM we can have more faith in.
I can tell you right now outside of drafting a "#1" star or "#2 star" on a title team with this years pick, signing guys like Jeff Teague = path to more shitty seasons. They have 27 wins and that's with relatively good health for the key players on the team.
Melo, Rose, KP, Lee all remained as healthy as you can expect as a group. Noah was hurt. The roster sucks. Adding mediocre veterans doesn't change that.
Again getting 2 all rookie players the last 2 years. Grant had value to other teams even after a mediocre year (and I was big fan of that pick).
I was fine with Lee signing. I think most fans were more than fine with going after Noah.
It's the valuation and direction I'm not fine with. Phil doesn't understand the potential of this team (or he has another agenda to act like it can compete). At the end of the day he wasn't paid the big bucks to do what Sam Hinkie did (who currently doesn't have a job in the NBA)
And while he was going after alright players, he went on a shopping spree with Dolan's wallet.
Let him handle the draft. Hell, I don't even think we'll sniff the big ticket items in free agency because
1) they will have more financial incentives with their current teams
2)they won't choose the Knicks over their current or other teams at the same prices
I don't think it's physically possible for phil to fuck up the Knicks situation anymore. Sure, I want a GM with the clear direction to rebuild, but I think there are limited ways to go about this offseason in general. So whatever, phil stays 1 more year and then we get a GM we can have more faith in.
My concerns aren't the big ticket FA. My concerns are guys like Jeff Teague, There are only so many starting PG roles. If the Knicks offer him the biggest deal would it really be shocking to see a guy like that sign here?
are the New York Rangers, and the history of similarly dysfunctional teams having their fortunes change with the right players or players. The Clippers put the Knicks to shame with their dysfunction, but managed to turn things around even while Donald Sterling was still around. Patriots are another example, as are the Cubs. That's our only hope - KP, this year's pick and next year's pick are just so talented that they drag this team into contention over the next few years.
I do mean exactly the Jeff Teagues and George Hills.
Not because of name but because of the money they will be getting.
I am 0 concerned that any of those PGs will be on the Knicks next season.
Your lips to God's ears. These are the exact kind of moves I would loathe. I can already see the BBI arguments "I just want to see a better brand of basketball" "with better PG play I could see us winning 50 games with Tatum and Teague"
David Pick @IAmDPick
Source tells me Nets on hunt for Euroleague PG, on tonight's radar: Belgrade ace Stefan Jovic. BRK also saw Teodosic, Heurtel, Wanamaker.
The Knicks get a good pick and do or don't draft a PG. Let's say they trade Melo and Rose can't find money outside. What if they gave him a 1 year deal at about 10-15M. Would you be ok with that?
in strategy from Phil/Mills to sit out the free agent market this summer. The last two summers, they've spent every last cap dollar on whoever would take their money. I expect more of the same this summer....with perhaps a lousy Melo trade thrown in just to really piss me off.
The Knicks get a good pick and do or don't draft a PG. Let's say they trade Melo and Rose can't find money outside. What if they gave him a 1 year deal at about 10-15M. Would you be ok with that?
No. That would be a terrible move. They traded Melo for presumably a crap return (lets be honest here on paper the Knicks return 99% is not going to be "better" than what Melo gives them next year, at least not in 2018). Rose doesn't play defense (which impacts the other defenders) and he doesn't do a particularly good job setting up KP/Willy.
He could either try to build a 40-win team just so he can retire and say, "Hey I built a playoff team in NY!" or he can use these next two years to build a young team in the precise way that he wants and plant the seeds for a decade of success after he's gone. I sure hope it's the latter.
in theory makes sense (best Euro PG, wants guaranteed minutes/role) but I've read he's heavily a pick n roll guy. In theory that would be great for KP/Willy but not sure if that works in the system we are going to be running. We do very little pnr
in strategy from Phil/Mills to sit out the free agent market this summer. The last two summers, they've spent every last cap dollar on whoever would take their money. I expect more of the same this summer....with perhaps a lousy Melo trade thrown in just to really piss me off.
why do you expect more of the same?
the year they signed afflalo lopez and oquinn they had no draft pick coming up so they tried to make the playoffs..
last off season they decided 1 last try to build something around melo it didnt work and luckily for them the team bottomed out...
this year they have all their draftmpicks, all future draft picks, rose can walk and they will most likely trade melo...
the player they will be building around is 22 so there will be no rush like there was with melo..
i really dont see phil going for the quick fix this summer because he doesnt have to
in theory makes sense (best Euro PG, wants guaranteed minutes/role) but I've read he's heavily a pick n roll guy. In theory that would be great for KP/Willy but not sure if that works in the system we are going to be running. We do very little pnr
isnt the story that he really doesnt want to leave and there are teams overseas willing to make him one of the highest paid players..
plus he is already 29, unless he really wants to play in the nba i dont see why he comes over now
The Knicks get a good pick and do or don't draft a PG. Let's say they trade Melo and Rose can't find money outside. What if they gave him a 1 year deal at about 10-15M. Would you be ok with that?
No. The only reason to trade Melo, which is something they should do, is to start developing this team around KP/Willy/2017 pick and Rose doesn't help that. If that trio does well, great. If they struggle to win and land high in the lottery again, possibly even better as they'll add another (potentially) significant piece for the future.
in theory makes sense (best Euro PG, wants guaranteed minutes/role) but I've read he's heavily a pick n roll guy. In theory that would be great for KP/Willy but not sure if that works in the system we are going to be running. We do very little pnr
isnt the story that he really doesnt want to leave and there are teams overseas willing to make him one of the highest paid players..
plus he is already 29, unless he really wants to play in the nba i dont see why he comes over now
He's implied he both wants to get paid and play for a contender AND get a guaranteed role so unless he's just BSing odds are he just stays over there. How many contenders are giving a 30 year old big money and minutes? I guess I could see a team like the Spurs doing something there if Mills were to bolt. This other kid Jovic sounds more likely to leave Europe.
like prigioni, i know he was 38 but the only reason he came over is because scola and ginobli told him to come over and just experience it for a couple of years..
a lot of the overseas guys get to a point where it is just not worth it then when they finally like ok, they are past their lrime..
i think that is why kuz decided to come when he did
To be honest i am surprised hernangomez didnt wait another year or so
realmadrid offered him a ni e contract to stay for 2 more years and he turned them down, i wonder if his brother getting drafted and coming over had anything to do with it..
i also wonder if kp recruited him a little bit...
RE: To be honest i am surprised hernangomez didnt wait another year or so
realmadrid offered him a ni e contract to stay for 2 more years and he turned them down, i wonder if his brother getting drafted and coming over had anything to do with it..
i also wonder if kp recruited him a little bit...
I suspect part of it was Juancho saying he wanted to come directly to the NBA.
in strategy from Phil/Mills to sit out the free agent market this summer. The last two summers, they've spent every last cap dollar on whoever would take their money. I expect more of the same this summer....with perhaps a lousy Melo trade thrown in just to really piss me off.
why do you expect more of the same?
the year they signed afflalo lopez and oquinn they had no draft pick coming up so they tried to make the playoffs..
last off season they decided 1 last try to build something around melo it didnt work and luckily for them the team bottomed out...
this year they have all their draftmpicks, all future draft picks, rose can walk and they will most likely trade melo...
the player they will be building around is 22 so there will be no rush like there was with melo..
i really dont see phil going for the quick fix this summer because he doesnt have to
Phil is old and stupid. The owner is just stupid. That's why I expect more of the same. And they do not have all of their picks going forward. When you factor in second rounders they are draft pick negative. And they don't own their own #2 until 2022...not really ideal if they plan on rebuilding.
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Hearing Magic Johnson, knowing UCLA/Kentucky is a scouting must first-hand, will reluctantly miss Shaquille O'Neal's statue ceremony tonight
the only 2 years knocks do not have 2nd round picks
Arash MarkaziVerified account @ArashMarkazi 2m2 minutes ago
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
Arash MarkaziVerified account @ArashMarkazi 2m2 minutes ago
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
he doesnt, knicks gm and their lead scout will be in memphis
RE: RE: Phil doesn't have to worry about scouting!
Arash MarkaziVerified account @ArashMarkazi 2m2 minutes ago
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
he doesnt, knicks gm and their lead scout will be in memphis
So the Lakers lead scout won't be in Memphis? Magic is going alone? c'mon lol
do realize the Knicks GM is not a scout right? He's a contract signer. Please provide me with evidence Knicks GM Steve Mills is someone we should value attending the game.
RE: RE: RE: Phil doesn't have to worry about scouting!
Arash MarkaziVerified account @ArashMarkazi 2m2 minutes ago
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
he doesnt, knicks gm and their lead scout will be in memphis
So the Lakers lead scout won't be in Memphis? Magic is going alone? c'mon lol
Mills played professional basketball in Ecuador for a year.[2] He worked for the National Basketball Association for sixteen years beginning in 1984 after having worked at Chemical Bank. Mills ascension while at the NBA was notable. He was an account executive in the corporate sponsorship department of NBA properties and program manager for NBA properties. He became vice-president of special events, after which he was senior vice-president of Basketball and Player Development,[3] Mills then became Chief operating officer and Sports Business President of Madison Square Garden in 2003.[4] His duties at MSG included supervising day-to-day operations, including finances, business strategies of the NBAs New York Knicks, NHL's New York Rangers and the WNBA's New York Liberty. All sports related activities were under his jurisdiction, including boxing, college basketball and track & field.
In 2009, Mills left MSG and joined Magic Johnson Enterprises where he helped create the Athletes & Entertainers Wealth Management Group, LLC (A&E).[5] of which he was a partner.[6]
On September 26, 2013, the New York Knicks announced Mills would be the executive vice president and general manager of the organization.[7]
I must be missing the part where it highlights his scouting accumen
most people who will be making final decisions on potential top 5 picks will make it their duty to be in attendance if at all possible. That's how this works.... ya know the way PHIL JACKSON attended games until now?
Jason McIntyre ✔ @jasonrmcintyre
Okafor is dribbling OUT of double teams, then around the foul line, then switching to his left hand for a layup?
Phil Jackson, drooling
9:25 PM - 18 Feb 2015
20 20 Retweets 13 13 likes
Jacksons comments after the gameGreat prospecthave him facing tampering charges.
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Adrian Wojnarowski ✔ @WojVerticalNBA
Sources: Knicks president Phil Jackson will likely face a league fine for commenting on OSU's D'Angelo Russell, a draft-ineligible player.
10:42 AM - 27 Feb 2015
Matt Jones @KySportsRadio
Phil Jackson at UK practice today and will be at game tomorrow
2:40 PM - 27 Feb 2015
204 204 Retweets 216 216 likes
Kyle Tucker @KyleTucker_SEC
Kentucky credentialed 20 NBA scouts/GMs for today's game against Arkansas, including Phil Jackson, who's been here since yesterday.
3:20 PM - 28 Feb 2015
42 42 Retweets 25 25 likes
Do many GMs or team presidents personally attend games for prospects?
Do we know if Jerry Reese or Marc Ross went to "scout" players in BCS bowl games?
They absolutely do. Phil as a posted below was noted as attending multiple games in person, thus the famous illegal Russell quote.
Okay, that's good context. But by this line of thinking allowing for the fact that he does travel maybe he's already seen UCLA and Kentucky and it's just gone unmentioned.
do not know for a fact he hasn't but generally when someone of his stature appears at a college game it is noted. None of the writers have mentioned any such thing all season. He's hiding somewhere?
defender? I can't get a read, different sites say different things. He seems to have the athleticism to stick to PGs, but doesn't have elite wingspan. Wouldn't hate the pick, but I'd be dissapointed if we passed on Tatum/Isaac for him.
defender? I can't get a read, different sites say different things. He seems to have the athleticism to stick to PGs, but doesn't have elite wingspan. Wouldn't hate the pick, but I'd be dissapointed if we passed on Tatum/Isaac for him.
"After losing three of its last five games and allowing LSU to score 58 second-half points Tuesday night, John Calipari said Friday his team has to get defensive to get back on track, and that includes Malik Monk making a bigger impact on that side of the court.
However, the idea to play Monk less if his defense doesnt improve was not by the coach, but actually the player himself.
"I said to him, 'you're not rebounding, you're not defending the way you should. How are we dealing with this?' Calipari said Friday about his talk with Monk about defense. "He said, 'coach, tell me and if I don't do it, sit me.' That's how they should feel. If I'm not doing my job, sit me out."
That sounds like a player whos more than willing to admit his faults and correct them. Monk has been unfairly criticized recently for his lack of defense, which this team as a whole is struggling with." Link - ( New Window )
took another shot at Ewing today apparently per TMZ
Let's be honest about Oakley. He's a fucking maniac.
No doubt about it. I understand him knocking the guys who work for Dolan but Ewing isn't a Dolan lackey. Far from it.
Speaking of TMZ and taking shots... Ron Harper on Rose
Doesn't matter where Derrick Rose ends up in free agency ... he'll NEVER win a championship -- so says Ron Harper.
Earlier this week, Rose says finding a winning team is more important than a big contract when he searches for a new team this summer.
"Not even thinking money," Rose said ... "I'm not going to negotiate with people where money is the number one thing I'm asking for. I want to win."
So, we went to Harper -- a 5-time NBA champ -- and asked which team could be the right fit.
Harper says it won't matter -- he ain't gonna win.
I have to say, the not going to UK-UCLA strikes me as nothing big
He can view the tape and it's not as if this is some singular moment allowing him to scout these players. BFD.
I also have to say that it's more than a bit amusing how enthralled the basketball media has been with Magic Johnson given what a disaster he was as a coach.
RE: I have to say, the not going to UK-UCLA strikes me as nothing big
He can view the tape and it's not as if this is some singular moment allowing him to scout these players. BFD.
I also have to say that it's more than a bit amusing how enthralled the basketball media has been with Magic Johnson given what a disaster he was as a coach.
guarantee if he doea a bad job media will say it is not his fault..
remember when phil was rumored to go to lakers all the media was saying how great a move it would be for.lakers them he went to knicks and it became a hlrrible moved
far the one + I'll give Magic is he seems committed to a full rebuild/tanking. We'll see if he actually continues with that (or if Jeannie allows that) but for now that's one thing I like about him over Phil. If Phil has a change of heart this off-season I'll adjust my view.
far the one + I'll give Magic is he seems committed to a full rebuild/tanking. We'll see if he actually continues with that (or if Jeannie allows that) but for now that's one thing I like about him over Phil. If Phil has a change of heart this off-season I'll adjust my view.
hasnt jeannie and magic already said they want to get superstars to la
far the one + I'll give Magic is he seems committed to a full rebuild/tanking. We'll see if he actually continues with that (or if Jeannie allows that) but for now that's one thing I like about him over Phil. If Phil has a change of heart this off-season I'll adjust my view.
hasnt jeannie and magic already said they want to get superstars to la
Who doesn't want superstars? Easier to add superstars with either appealing young talent to pair them with or trade for. Superstars are always an ideal outcome.
Justin Jackson is my guy.
I heard the next lebron is in high school now? If so and he's a freshmen in college next year it could be worth trading Melo and tanking for him next year
Tankathon - ( New Window )
Justin Jackson is my guy.
You mean Josh Jackson. Justin Jackson will probably go late teens - twenties
Because the players they will be playing will qork together and actually play hard and play defense...
more triangle! - ( New Window )
thats fine just fucking commit to it and stop going back and forth..
Justin Jackson is my guy.
Justin Jackson from North Carolina? Are you serious????
It's funny how that much one spot difference can change a franchise, even if its not within the top 3.
If Orlando took KP things would've looked pretty promising. Gordon, KP. Keep Oladipo and Sabonis. Not a fan of Payton but he's a plus as a backup/6th man.
But they took Hezonja and everything went to shit. I still like the Knicks long term over the Magic for that reason. Gordon is going to be one fine player, but I don't think he's a franchise center piece by any means.
You're looking at a young core of KP, Jokic, Harris, Murray and the younger 'Gomez, who isn't bad himself.
or wait am i supposed to root for him to drive on gobert?
shhh it may be the knicks
I don't feel any shame or remorse from rooting against this team within games anymore.
I don't feel any shame or remorse from rooting against this team within games anymore.
We're in the same boat. Just get better. Rip the band-aid off. Get Melo out of here. And rebuild.
They would've had to take him blindly because KP refused to work out for them.
They are trying to run the triangle and the lowly Ron Baker is better at that than Rose is. Playing Rose is tanking ... which is fine.
lol ... exactly.
we seem to be playing without an actual C tonight, so that is not surprising.
Much as we laugh at the Lopez brothers, the one we had for a year was actually a pretty good fit with KP in that regard.
God if Gobert got 35 tonight I don't wanna see what Nurkic does. KP/Willy having to cover Rose's ass when Dame blows by him is gonna lead to a lot of easy buckets.
Hornacek is still fouling? He's gonna coach game 82 like it's game seven of the Finals.
Very interesting quotes from Jennings and he makes some valid points. Hornacek doesn't look good here.
"It was just different. Every day it was just something different," Jennings said. "It was just like, if we could just stick to what we could do, we'll be fine. So at times, you'd just come into practice and you didn't know what was going on."
But high praise for KP and Willy.
"That's who they should build a team around, those two," Jennings said." That's just my personal opinion because they're very young, they're very good. I mean, Willy, in a couple years, he's going to be probably one of the best big men. He reminds me of Marc Gasol."
NYdailynews - ( New Window )
Ye of little faith
Very interesting quotes from Jennings and he makes some valid points. Hornacek doesn't look good here.
"It was just different. Every day it was just something different," Jennings said. "It was just like, if we could just stick to what we could do, we'll be fine. So at times, you'd just come into practice and you didn't know what was going on."
But high praise for KP and Willy.
"That's who they should build a team around, those two," Jennings said." That's just my personal opinion because they're very young, they're very good. I mean, Willy, in a couple years, he's going to be probably one of the best big men. He reminds me of Marc Gasol." NYdailynews - ( New Window )
Hornacek admitted it was a mistake to try and run both and blend it..
i have no problem with running the triangle just stick to it and run it
I dont think the tram was clicking at all, offensively it was basically ok melo your turn and then next time ok rose your turn and kp sprinkled in...
there was not unity or team work and there was no defense..
the team thought they could win on talent alone and it blew up in their face
this i agree with their is a reason why the 2nd unit plays bettter
I remember this too...Gobert is a great young player. A different stratosphere than Noah at this point. Imagine a front line of him and KP??
I agree that there is too much focus on the offense BUT the biggest issue with the defense is the roster/talent. The good defensive teams have long, young, + athletes. We have lazy Rose and Melo, below average quickless Willy and overall a roster of guys who even in the best "system" would be below average defensively. We need an effort + athlete influx.
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looking to rile it up again but I recall someone on here arguing Gobert's contract looks terrible compared to Noah... I can't lie, it's all I could think of as Gobert took a hot steamer on the Knicks.
I remember this too...Gobert is a great young player. A different stratosphere than Noah at this point. Imagine a front line of him and KP??
A Gobert/KP frontline is something that really allows you to dream. Lets face it, it's going to be extremely tough to ever on paper be as good as the Warriors or Cavs etc but if you find things that you are really good at (rim protection?) maybe you give these types of teams more trouble than people expect.
Yeah the 2nd unit was different because jennings constantly fed the big guys on pick and roll...
Melo for Deng/ Clarkson/ Randle/ 2017 1st from Houston? Melo would have to agree to not exercise his player option after next season ( which he probably won't anyway). The Lakers clear 30 million in salary per year after next season. They also avoid having to give Randle an extension or matching an offer next year- which will be costly. The Knicks get Randle and late 1st this year. This obviously isn't likely but you never know. It could leave the Lakers with 60-70 million in cap room for the 2018 offseason. Russell/ 2017 pick/ Melo/ George/ Cousins? Now that's a quick rebuild....
Link - ( New Window )
LA could be that spot..
trade for melo sign wade and paul, the following year melo opts out and he and levron split remaining cap space...
they all loke magic, so far they have burned bridges with the heat and knicks, where else is there?
Nets (BOS) : we wont catch
Lakers : we wont catch
Suns : we wont catch
Magic : +1.5
Sixers : +1.0
Kings : tied with NYK
Knicks
T'Wolves : -1.5
Pels : -3.0 and pulling away
Knicks are tied for 6/7. In the event of a tie, they average the balls. E.g. if this were the final standings, Knicks and Kings would evenly split the balls for the 6 and 7 picks, with a coin flip used to determine allocation of any extra ball (if any) and draft position in case neither team wins a top 3 pick.
Position is so key. #7 slot has a 15% chance of moving up. #5 slot has a 29.2% chance of moving up. I believe in us. I dont think any other team is as mentally broken as we are.
magic and Jeannie buss have already said they want superstars on the lakers and not looking fir a slow build
it feels wrong to do and i hate it to be honest but in the end it is the right thing...
i cant root against them but when they lose i see the bigger picture...
i was one of the people against tanking but at this point it is the only way to go
Six players are averaging > 19 ppg and shooting > 50% in March:
LeBron, Kyrie, Karl-Anthony Towns, Giannis, Jokic and .... Tim Hardaway Jr.
Six players are averaging > 19 ppg and shooting > 50% in March:
LeBron, Kyrie, Karl-Anthony Towns, Giannis, Jokic and .... Tim Hardaway Jr.
and no defense, he did this with the knicks, he had great stretches and a complete scrub in the others...
he is a scorer off the bench, i dont think he will ever be anything more
A fan should want their team to be successful. Success does not equate to winning games in a lost season where you are effectively eliminated, where the core starters are not long for the lineup, and where you're draft position is in play.
I think you're ok.
Educate him on how the NBA works (even the MLB). The Cubs are nice story, does anyone give 10 shits about how they got there?
And I still have scars from the tanks wars two years ago - rooting for these shitty teams to win this time of year is a fruitless exercise. I bet the current standings stay exactly as they are.
I just feel he's "unfairly" lumped in with KP and Willy. Granted, Willy doesn't really belong lumped in with KP but both could be above average starters on a very good team. Kuz isn't a average starter, not even on a bad team. He's solid but if they loved someone early 2nd round and swapped him for such a guy (presumably 6=7 years younger) I wouldn't lose much sleep.
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Tommy BeerVerified account @TommyBeer
Six players are averaging > 19 ppg and shooting > 50% in March:
LeBron, Kyrie, Karl-Anthony Towns, Giannis, Jokic and .... Tim Hardaway Jr.
and no defense, he did this with the knicks, he had great stretches and a complete scrub in the others...
he is a scorer off the bench, i dont think he will ever be anything more
He wasn't this good with the Knicks. I'm not sure he would've been, but lets not discredit how he's doing.
If the Knicks had a 24 year old SG that was putting up his numbers and wasn't named "Tim Hardaway Jr." we would all be talking about we had a core 3 and another top pick coming on top of that.
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But he serves no purpose on the Knicks. He's a nice bench scoring option for a good team.
I just feel he's "unfairly" lumped in with KP and Willy. Granted, Willy doesn't really belong lumped in with KP but both could be above average starters on a very good team. Kuz isn't a average starter, not even on a bad team. He's solid but if they loved someone early 2nd round and swapped him for such a guy (presumably 6=7 years younger) I wouldn't lose much sleep.
I think you read too much into it. People list him in among assets we have, but I dont hear anyone commenting on him specifically as anything near equal to KP and WH
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That's giving up a lot. Magic wants to turn things around but I don't think he'd shorten the team's timeline to rely on PG and 35 year old Melo to take them places.
magic and Jeannie buss have already said they want superstars on the lakers and not looking fir a slow build
Is it really a lot though? Randle has been up and down and he's up to get a big contract. The Lakers are going to be able to attract big free agents, NBA players love LA. This trade allows them to clear the Deng and Clarkson salaries and avoid paying Randle. It also all hinges on them retaining their pick this year. Remember, if they keep the pick, their 2018 pick is unprotected so they have zero reason to tank next year.
They could trade the number 3 overall and Ingram for Paul George. Do the above trade for Melo. Go into next year with Russell, Melo, PG13, Zubac, Nance and maybe sign a vet PG. They would enter the 2018 season with a boatload of cap room and the ability to use the bird rights on Melo and George to go over the cap. Go after Westbrook or Cousins?
It's far fetched but its one of the only scenarios I could see the Knicks getting something back for Melo.
Ingram and the #3 pick for PG? The Lakers seem to have all of the leverage in this situation. That's an insane how much you'd have to give up for PG. PG will be getting a cousins-like return at this point (maybe less, he's an expiring after this upcoming season).
The Lakers would need to clear all of Clarkson, Randle, mozgov and Deng to make that work anyways (getting cousins, PG and keeping Melo on his player option).
Also seems Cousins is intent about getting the most money, so unless the Pelicans don't give him the max I think he ends up being in NO long term. Just speculation on my part.
Why would he even come here?
He wasn't this good with the Knicks. I'm not sure he would've been, but lets not discredit how he's doing.
If the Knicks had a 24 year old SG that was putting up his numbers and wasn't named "Tim Hardaway Jr." we would all be talking about we had a core 3 and another top pick coming on top of that.
Counterpoint: he's the same player he was last year, albeit taking more shots. Shooting percentages by sub-distances arent materially different. He's added an assist per 36 minutes. WS48 is basically the same.
I'd probably be dreading the idea of having to pay $20+ million a season to resign him this summer more than I'd be celebrating increased volume. But that's my general feel about youth in the NBA. It's great for the first 4 seasons. Then even good players can kill you by eating your cap and preventing better picks, IF you dont have the superstars in place already.
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Millsap is voiding his contract. I'm done watching the Knicks if we go after him.
Why would he even come here?
Good question but TRYING to sign him would mean 1. No plan and 2. They are just going to keep adding veterans with no chance of ever winning a title. Odds are he remains in Atl as he'd be leaving as much as 53 million on the table (4 years 154 if he signs with someone else, 5 for 207 if he stays there).
Are you serious? Clarkson and a late 1st for Paul George?
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I wouldn't give up Randle for PG. Maybe Clarkson and the rockets #1.
Are you serious? Clarkson and a late 1st for Paul George?
Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
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In comment 13403752 giantsfan44ab said:
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I wouldn't give up Randle for PG. Maybe Clarkson and the rockets #1.
Are you serious? Clarkson and a late 1st for Paul George?
Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
The Pacers obviously don't feel this is a done deal. They reportedly turned down significant offers from Boston and Philly.
And that's why there are only ever three or four teams with a legitimate chance of winning a championship/
Same goes for everyone who thought we would get better offers for Melo in the offseason. No, Melo is 33 and can opt out. No ones giving anything of value for Melo when they can sign him in the offseason if they really wanted Melo that badly.
Knicks need to pair KP/ Willy with hopefully a top 5 2017 pick. Trade Melo for whatever you can get. I really like Lee, but trade him for 2017 1st or future 1st. Don't sign any veterans- no Millsap/ Teague/ Holiday/ Hill.
Let the young team take its lumps in 2017. If they win then its a pleasant surprise and KP obviously makes a huge jump. If they lose big, they get another top pick. Then you truly have a young core you can build around and augment with FA signings after 2018.
The correct direction is so clear and I know they won't do it. They'll chase some veteran FAs and try to contend for the playoffs. The good thing is, Jackson has tried to do that 3 years now and failed miserably.
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He wasn't this good with the Knicks. I'm not sure he would've been, but lets not discredit how he's doing.
If the Knicks had a 24 year old SG that was putting up his numbers and wasn't named "Tim Hardaway Jr." we would all be talking about we had a core 3 and another top pick coming on top of that.
Counterpoint: he's the same player he was last year, albeit taking more shots. Shooting percentages by sub-distances arent materially different. He's added an assist per 36 minutes. WS48 is basically the same.
I'd probably be dreading the idea of having to pay $20+ million a season to resign him this summer more than I'd be celebrating increased volume. But that's my general feel about youth in the NBA. It's great for the first 4 seasons. Then even good players can kill you by eating your cap and preventing better picks, IF you dont have the superstars in place already.
Fair enough. If THJR is going to be making that kind of money I would certainly back off my stance.
I've been saying it, but there has to be a time where these big contracts for mediocre players stops. Cap space should become very valuable in no time at this rate.
Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
There was an implied return in the Cousins trade which was that SAC probably felt that there was a 50-50 chance or worse that they finish outside the bottom 10, and would then lose the protection on that pick. The needed to move Boogie to get worse and save their pick. So I wont say it was Boogie for Buddy and 2 lottery picks this season, but maybe it was Buddy and 1.6 lottery picks? Including improved positioning for the SAC pick.
Different circumstance I think. Kings are also more hopeless (Indy has Turner) and are poorly run.
Knicks need to pair KP/ Willy with hopefully a top 5 2017 pick. Trade Melo for whatever you can get. I really like Lee, but trade him for 2017 1st or future 1st. Don't sign any veterans- no Millsap/ Teague/ Holiday/ Hill.
Let the young team take its lumps in 2017. If they win then its a pleasant surprise and KP obviously makes a huge jump. If they lose big, they get another top pick. Then you truly have a young core you can build around and augment with FA signings after 2018.
The correct direction is so clear and I know they won't do it. They'll chase some veteran FAs and try to contend for the playoffs. The good thing is, Jackson has tried to do that 3 years now and failed miserably.
I think a top pick in 2018 is inevitable. Outside KP/Willy making big strides, the team will not get better.
Even if the Knicks do go after these FAs they will not be the only suitor offering them big money. Not even worried about who we *might* be going after, because we aren't going to get any of them.
I sure hope this is how it plays out. I'm sure they'll make a push for some vets but who's coming here at this point? We're a dumpster fire.
I'd probably be dreading the idea of having to pay $20+ million a season to resign him this summer more than I'd be celebrating increased volume. But that's my general feel about youth in the NBA. It's great for the first 4 seasons. Then even good players can kill you by eating your cap and preventing better picks, IF you dont have the superstars in place already.
Fair enough. If THJR is going to be making that kind of money I would certainly back off my stance.
I've been saying it, but there has to be a time where these big contracts for mediocre players stops. Cap space should become very valuable in no time at this rate.
If we are celebrating/scouting THJR as an emerging solid starter at SG (thin position), in a year with another cap jump, then how can we possibly project him to get less than the $19/season Crabbe got? Either he's worse than Crabbe, and then meh, or he's better, and then $$$$$$$$$.
I dont bemoan the loss of THJR. Solid starters coming up for contracts are fools gold for a team in the Knicks' position.
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Again, that seems like what everyone said about the cousins trade.
"hield and a 1st for Cousins?".
If PG is hell bent on coming to LA, why even trade for him? Get him in FA. I don't see what leverage the Pacers even have over the Lakers if george is serious about LA except that the Lakers need to clear some salaries.
There was an implied return in the Cousins trade which was that SAC probably felt that there was a 50-50 chance or worse that they finish outside the bottom 10, and would then lose the protection on that pick. The needed to move Boogie to get worse and save their pick. So I wont say it was Boogie for Buddy and 2 lottery picks this season, but maybe it was Buddy and 1.6 lottery picks? Including improved positioning for the SAC pick.
Different circumstance I think. Kings are also more hopeless (Indy has Turner) and are poorly run.
But Cousins still had 2 years at least (or 1.5). I think for that reason PG has a little less value.
And actually, as much as I'd like Turner, with the two top 10 picks SAC might have this year I think I'd much rather be in SAC's position than Indy who might lose PG for little or nothing.
If skal is say, maybe 80% of what Turner is, then hield, WCS and maybe Tatum and French/fox? I'd much rather be SAC than a lot of these mediocre teams in no mans land (Charlotte, Chicago, Memphis, Indy, Atlanta, etc.). At least from a talent standpoint and not an organizational standpoint. Who knew i would say that.
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The Knicks have a clear path to building a really strong young core. The more I read about the 2018 draft, the stronger it sounds. Some really top prospects at the head of the draft.
Knicks need to pair KP/ Willy with hopefully a top 5 2017 pick. Trade Melo for whatever you can get. I really like Lee, but trade him for 2017 1st or future 1st. Don't sign any veterans- no Millsap/ Teague/ Holiday/ Hill.
Let the young team take its lumps in 2017. If they win then its a pleasant surprise and KP obviously makes a huge jump. If they lose big, they get another top pick. Then you truly have a young core you can build around and augment with FA signings after 2018.
The correct direction is so clear and I know they won't do it. They'll chase some veteran FAs and try to contend for the playoffs. The good thing is, Jackson has tried to do that 3 years now and failed miserably.
I think a top pick in 2018 is inevitable. Outside KP/Willy making big strides, the team will not get better.
Even if the Knicks do go after these FAs they will not be the only suitor offering them big money. Not even worried about who we *might* be going after, because we aren't going to get any of them.
But my point is don't half ass it. Do a full rebuild. You just know Jackson will be itching to give a monster contract to Holiday/ Hill or Teague. Just keep the cap clean and go after the top pick. Instead they'll make moves that make them just good enough to barely miss the playoffs. Follow the OKC model and hopefully get that 3rd foundation player. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Phil has the patience to opt for another losing season. It's why I advocate firing him and bringing in a new GM. Someone who will commit to it and not try to do build/contend simultaneously like Phil has done.
There's going to be a time again when maybe a team gets another Jae Crowder for the 2015 equivalent of $6M a year (maybe $10-14M). It's cyclic.
I'm personally not big on any of those guys but those are the signings you make for a team in the Knicks position. Clark is intriguing, an undersized SG. I'd probably opt to keep Holiday if the price is similar tho.
This. I didnt mind Detroit's approach at all. I liked Drummond, Jackson, Harris, and picking Stanimal. However, Drummond just wont break out of being basically the same player he's always been, which isnt good enough to be the best player on a good team. Jackson got hurt. Stanimal didnt develop. Harris is what I think everyone figured he'd be, a solid starter. They didnt get lucky. If they did, they would be a UFA destination with a chance to do some damage in the coming years (honestly, no one in the East has a chance until LeBron slows down or a surprise super team forms).
Turns out, $12M would've still been quite the steal.
I know everyone reported that they don't expect an amnesty clause in the new CBA, but any chance it still gets included? Or is the CBA a done deal? Would be huge for the Noah contract.
The plan is to "compete" ASAP, until further notice. I'll buy a rebuild when a rebuild is announced.
Turns out, $12M would've still been quite the steal.
Why would the bubble, if it exists, pop this year? Cap is up, plenty of teams have needs and room. Crabbe is a much better comp than Crowder. Crowder was comming offer a trade and <8 point season. He took a bad deal, period, based on advanced stats.Also, there wasnt much of a market for RFAs until last season, realistically.
Who said that?
Just please don't win the last game against the 76ers.
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His numbers were cute when he was getting meaningless minutes. Not calling you out Dan, btw, but I think comparing him to KP is a bit premature and a disservice to how good KP is. I don't think he's anymore "raw" than KP was coming into the league. He's just a bit (or a lot) more behind from a basketball standpoint (and quite possibly older than KP too).
Not at all saying he's a scrub or will be a scrub, but when Jabari Parker says things like he will be the best 7 footer in the league, it sounds like a Lavar Ball comment. Still a great pick by the bucks, those are the types of picks if you nail consistently you'll end up with a contender sooner or later. I think he'all be a fine player, but he's still a few years away.
His numbers were cute when he was getting meaningless minutes. Not calling you out Dan, btw, but I think comparing him to KP is a bit premature and a disservice to how good KP is. I don't think he's anymore "raw" than KP was coming into the league. He's just a bit (or a lot) more behind from a basketball standpoint (and quite possibly older than KP too).
Not at all saying he's a scrub or will be a scrub, but when Jabari Parker says things like he will be the best 7 footer in the league, it sounds like a Lavar Ball comment. Still a great pick by the bucks, those are the types of picks if you nail consistently you'll end up with a contender sooner or later. I think he'all be a fine player, but he's still a few years away.
He hasn't played well but in his defense he was basically viewed as a MAJOR project with some skills. He only turned 20 in Feb. If we didn't pick top 3 I'd deal our pick for Maker (the Bucks almost certainly wouldn't).
Agree about this point. I thought it was a steal when it happened though. In fairness, the Hawks player development with Bud is far superior to what the Knicks have.
All reports were that the scouting staff didn't like Grant but Phil went on his own and picked him. That exact scenario scares the shit out of me for the coming draft. "Phil likes TJ Leaf at 7- perfect fit for the triangle." Or passing on Smith because he doesn't fit the triangle...
And I really don't believe he's just turned 20. Howard Beck was on Lowe's podcast after he wrote that article and said someone who he talked to who researched the HS's he went to and said he might be around 22-23. Not old by any means, but he's not like developing into his body.
IU was recruiting him heavily and before he made his decision to go the NBA it came down between ASU and IU and I was watching a lot of his stuff. He has a very thin frame, which will limit how much mass he can put on long term. I don't think he'll ever become an even average rebounder.
A lot of his deficiencies will not factor on the bucks. He won't have to create his shot as often (he has a nice handle for a big, but I don't think it's polished enough to be a major weapon in the NBA). Rebounding for him will be overlooked so long as GF is there.
And I really don't know the way the term "raw" is thrown around anymore. Just because he's not good at basketball but has nice physical tools makes him more "raw" and thus a higher ceiling compared to a guy like KP?
The issue with him in the draft was that he lacked in the fundamental areas bigs are required to have, even in the modern NBA. However he couldn't have fallen to a better team to cover his weaknesses. He'll be an impact player in Milwaukee.
Fultz
Ball
Jackson
Smith
Isaac
Markkanen
Tatum
Essentially I'd take Maker over Fox, Frenchy and Monk
Fantastic analysis. Why would every single draft board/mock draft article even have him in the top 7?
I think you are underrating his offense quite a bit. First, he's shooting 35% from 3, 51% from the field so the "doesn't do anything on offense well" stuff isn't really fair. Second his numbers are diminished because FSU runs 12 deep. He's extremely mobile (can even take the ball up the court as the point on the FB). Jonathan Tjarks absolutely loves him
"When he does get to create offense for others, he shows flashes of rare vision and passing ability for a guy his size. Its almost impossible to stop an explosive 6-foot-10 athlete who can shoot and pass over the top of a defense:
It will be interesting to see if he becomes more aggressive on offense as he acclimates to the college schedule, especially once Florida States slate of games increases in difficulty in ACC play. The potential is there. In this sequence against Temple, Isaac uses a Eurostep to split a pick-and-roll and draw a foul:
What were seeing is still mostly potential at this point. Isaac is more a collection of interesting skills than a complete basketball player. While he usually makes the right decisions when he is on the floor, he doesnt always execute them correctly. He can get loose with the ball in traffic, and creating shots against smaller and faster defenders who can get into his dribble might be difficult for him if hes forced to play more as a wing SF at the next level"
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"At the age of 19, he has shown the ability to defend multiple positions, shoot the ball, put it on the floor, create for himself and others, rebound, and protect the rim. His skill set would allow him to fit on almost any team in the lottery, and a player with his combination of size, shooting ability, and athleticism makes for a useful NBA player, even if he never develops any further. Isaac has a high floor, and an even higher ceiling. Hes a 6-foot-10 player who can do everything on the basketball court well, and there arent many players like that at any level of the game. Jonathan Isaac is not being talked about a lot right now, but that will change soon enough."
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But in hindsight maybe we need to consider not quitting on young players too fast when we're not instantly gratified and try to have a longer view.
Agree about this point. I thought it was a steal when it happened though. In fairness, the Hawks player development with Bud is far superior to what the Knicks have.
All reports were that the scouting staff didn't like Grant but Phil went on his own and picked him. That exact scenario scares the shit out of me for the coming draft. "Phil likes TJ Leaf at 7- perfect fit for the triangle." Or passing on Smith because he doesn't fit the triangle...
not sure how you come to that conclusion, when grant was not your typical triangle point guard..
Did phil draft strictly for triangle last time he had picks? no so why would you be concerned now?
They did get Monroe when everyone thought it was a big deal that Monroe "spurned" the Knicks for a high upside team.
I don't really think they'd need to get a big time FA. Giannis can easily be a top 3 player in a few years, if not the premier player in the NBA.
I hype him up all the time, but Ill always think middleton is criminally underrated until he makes an all star team. There have been worse players that have made all star teams in recent years (yeah I realize the '15 Hawks makes that easy to say, so does Kobe in his final year). But also guys like wade and Melo who made it in recent years. He's not in the harden/derozan/Klay class of 2 guards but he's right behind with Beal and Bradley IMO.
I've taken isssue with all the dumb contracts they've been handing out but they seem convinced they'll have to build from within. Otherwise maybe they could get Dwayne wade to come for a year or two and play off the bench.
Hard to call him a chucker when he's shooting 36% from 3 and over 50% from 2.
He's not a defensive stopper by any means but I don't think he's the sieve people on this board think he is. He has great size for a 2 guard and plays with intensity.
Also Milsap wasn't an all star caliber player in Utah.
Teague was a fringe NBA player at the start of his career. Korver had his best years in Atlanta.
Maybe it's not player development, maybe it's the coaching that maximizes player success. But it's something.
Also double the assists, shooting more 3s. Not saying he was a scrub in Utah, but he played with some damn good players there and he's playing well as the lead dog in Atlanta. He shouldn't be a lead dog of a good team, but he's carrying a pretty average team to a top 4 seed. I didn't think he was that type of player in Utah.
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he is avegaing 18 and 8 this season in atlanta, how much better has atlanta made him?
Also double the assists, shooting more 3s. Not saying he was a scrub in Utah, but he played with some damn good players there and he's playing well as the lead dog in Atlanta. He shouldn't be a lead dog of a good team, but he's carrying a pretty average team to a top 4 seed. I didn't think he was that type of player in Utah.
agreed on the part he is shooting more 3s but i think that is more the offense they run, he is a face up big, never developed the post up game..
utah he scored more on his hustle and pick snd roll but he was still a very good player
Yes use flat out point per game averages. Shit why wouldn't Luke Kennard go #1 overall using that deep scouting insight?
Draft Nets and CBS have him 6. Ford had him top 7 last time I checked.
Hakeem Olajuwon averaged 8 ppg in his freshman year. Embiid averaged 10. Wiggins averaged like 16 or 17 in many more minutes played.
Don't understand how ppg is a substitute for scouting. You'd pick all seniors if that were the case.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
Philly has a lot of experience with tanking and you have to like their odds down the stretch given that they've been there so many times before and came through.
See the sixers can win though since the Kings hedge their bets. We only need to be worse than one or the other. And the sixers are halfway decent so I like their odds more.
Lose the last game.
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are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
Russell Westbrook was a 3.4 ppg scorer as a freshman and a 12.7 ppg scorer (in 34 minutes!) as a soph. Your analysis is broken.
Complaining about a near 7 foot freshman shooting 35% from three is just bonkers. Period.
Totally agree. Just tried to doing quick search of his contract and couldn't find anything definitive. Would love to give him total control of the Knicks. One can hope.....
I had Dunn included originally, but what about just Lavine? Or with a noah/Dieng swap included as well?
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In comment 13404073 Deej said:
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are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
that is part of having a better culture, player development set up, and such. even though i have been told that doesnt matter.
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In comment 13404073 Deej said:
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are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
you just mentioned a bunch of role players..
guess what when you play on a good team your role players look better especially with a good head coach..
porzingis has not improved?
and please stop with hardaway jr, he is the same player, he is a scorer and thats it he does nothing else well..
millsap was a good player with utah as well, you want to say he improved hia 3 point shot? isnt that the player adding to his game to fit the offense?
bazemore looks like dog shit this year, he got a big contract and has regressed...
I had Dunn included originally, but what about just Lavine? Or with a noah/Dieng swap included as well?
Without knowing where it landed, no. 6 or later for me yes. If the Knicks had a 22 (all of next season) PG/SG coming off a 19, 3.4 rebound, 3 assist 1 steal on 46/39 age 21 season we would be calling him untouchable. I think Wiggins/LaVine are a poor fit. The flip side is if you think LaVine is more Jamal Crawford than ascending "star" at the 2.
No ones saying THJR is a superstar. That doesn't happen. Players who aren't going to be stars don't turn magically into stars. They play better in better situations. THJR is more efficient and is averaging more assists. Can you really argue that? Those are facts. He's the same exact player, he's just contributing more efficiently in a better environment.
Baze has actually been playing pretty well since he slumped to start the year. And he was on a good team before, those Warriors teams were in the playoffs. He's just better in a better environment (compared to the mark Jackson warriors, not Steve Kerr).
I wouldnt throw a tantrum if the team scouts Lavine as worth the pick. It would lock us into a youth movement, which I like.
No ones saying THJR is a superstar. That doesn't happen. Players who aren't going to be stars don't turn magically into stars. They play better in better situations. THJR is more efficient and is averaging more assists. Can you really argue that? Those are facts. He's the same exact player, he's just contributing more efficiently in a better environment.
Baze has actually been playing pretty well since he slumped to start the year. And he was on a good team before, those Warriors teams were in the playoffs. He's just better in a better environment (compared to the mark Jackson warriors, not Steve Kerr).
Did i not say that role players play better on winning teams?
my point was beaides millsap he mentioned a bunch of role players that benefited from the system they run and the culture of a good team..
good teams breed good role players, look at the spurs they can win games sitting their stars because their players know ther roles and their system...
give me the player besides schroeder that the hawks have developed from the draft to be a big time player?
Schroeder i give you because he has been good this year
Eric is 100% right. You're not a "real fan." You're a Knicks fan.
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In comment 13404103 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 13404073 Deej said:
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are other guys they've done a nice job developing. They havent had premium picks to develop. I guess you could get on them for not turning any picks into home runs.
I am not trying to sound like i am ripping the hawks, they are a well run team, but to say they are so much better than the knicks because of tim hardaway jinior is asinine..
guess what role players look better on better teams
I really don't think it's an outrageous statement to say the Hawks are superior at player development than the Knicks. Which player have the Knicks significantly improved over Phil's tenure?
The Hawks? - Demarre Carrol, Korver, Millsap, Bazemore, Teague, Schroeder and yes Hardaway JR- he has improved dramatically since he got there. This will be the 3rd straight offseason where a wing the Hawks picked up off the scrap heap will get a big contract. That's not a coincidence.
you just mentioned a bunch of role players..
guess what when you play on a good team your role players look better especially with a good head coach..
porzingis has not improved?
and please stop with hardaway jr, he is the same player, he is a scorer and thats it he does nothing else well..
millsap was a good player with utah as well, you want to say he improved hia 3 point shot? isnt that the player adding to his game to fit the offense?
bazemore looks like dog shit this year, he got a big contract and has regressed...
You are making my point for me. Having a good head coach maximizes a players talent and puts them in the correct roles. Bud does that.
I personally don't think Porzingis has improved signifcantly since he came in the league. I'd feel alot better with him being developed by Budenholzer than the Knicks situation.
As for Millsap, he became an all star since he came to Atlanta. I know the east is weaker, but that's not just because he's shooting 3s. And if he's addding to his game to fit the offense- that's positive from a good system Atlanta runs.
I really don't understand how this is a debate. You wouldn't trade Derek Fisher/ Hornacek for Budenholzer? He's a top NBA coach that wins every year.
I wouldnt throw a tantrum if the team scouts Lavine as worth the pick. It would lock us into a youth movement, which I like.
I wouldn't even think of moving a top 3 pick for him but I do think when you get to the 6-8 range that LaVine's odds of being an all-star are at least as high as any of the guys who will be there. This is a good draft but it's not filled with 10 HOF prospects. If LaVine were somehow thrown back into the draft he'd likely go in the 4-8 range and would be a scouts call.
Its a relief be on the road together, build that bond weve been trying to build the entire year, coming here in nice weather, loosens guys up and makes them feel good, said Rose, wearing his Hollywood shades.
bit you cant say they developed players if most of their players are free agent signings or trades...
and pirzingis has not added anything seriously? better shooter and added 5 more ppg to his average..next thing is for him to add some trength and be abetter rebounder
he gets his kid 5 days a week in the summer when his school is over
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had no idea Rose lived in LA during the off-season. Must really miss his kid being so far away...
he gets his kid 5 days a week in the summer when his school is over
Good. Hopefully the Lakers sign this loser. Good riddance.
you my friend are a stalker- quite strange.
If they bring him back that is nail in the coffin for me as a Knicks fan. From an entertainment perspective he's awful to watch, he doesn't play hard, always has an excuse, and straight up skipped an NBA game without notice. I can't believe he's still on the team.
LA is where the "rape' accusation occurred with Rose and friends.
It's crazy how many NBA guys live in LA in the offseason. I can't say I blame them. Aside from being a marquee franchise, this is why the Lakers will be able to rebuild quickly if they are run correctly. Players love it there- great weather, blend in with other celebs, get to live in mansions with privacy...Not too shabby.
teague i will give you, i forgot they drafted him..
carroll is what he is, a 3 and d glue guy..
bazemore i think is overpaid and never deserved that contract, they didnt pay carroll to play bazemore them overpaid him
His WS/48 is about the same as KPs and he's the same age.
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had no idea Rose lived in LA during the off-season. Must really miss his kid being so far away...
If they bring him back that is nail in the coffin for me as a Knicks fan. From an entertainment perspective he's awful to watch, he doesn't play hard, always has an excuse, and straight up skipped an NBA game without notice. I can't believe he's still on the team.
LA is where the "rape' accusation occurred with Rose and friends.
It's crazy how many NBA guys live in LA in the offseason. I can't say I blame them. Aside from being a marquee franchise, this is why the Lakers will be able to rebuild quickly if they are run correctly. Players love it there- great weather, blend in with other celebs, get to live in mansions with privacy...Not too shabby.
players live in la in the summer for the beautiful weather and most trainers that the nba players use are based in la..
for example rose and westbrook use the same la based trainer
bit you cant say they developed players if most of their players are free agent signings or trades...
and pirzingis has not added anything seriously? better shooter and added 5 more ppg to his average..next thing is for him to add some trength and be abetter rebounder
Why can't you develop players you trade or sign? My point is Bud is a great coach/ developer who maximizes the talent on his team. I can't say the same for the Knicks recently.
My hate for the Knicks is at an all time high right now so take this with a grain of salt, but I can't credit the Knicks with any improvement of KP. If anything I think they have helped him develop some shitty habits- shot selection and team defense specifically.
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My point was bazemore, carol and Teague were on winning teams before (counting the old Hawks regime) and after being under the bud-Hawks and haven't played as well when not playing under him.
teague i will give you, i forgot they drafted him..
carroll is what he is, a 3 and d glue guy..
bazemore i think is overpaid and never deserved that contract, they didnt pay carroll to play bazemore them overpaid him
What does drafting them have to do with anything? The point is all these guys have hit their peak under the Bud-Hawks.
Bazemore was on a playoff team before Atlanta. So was Carol. Carrol and Teague were on playoff teams after Atlanta and both fell off.
I really don't understand how this is blasphemy to say there are teams with proven track records of getting the most of their players. I don't see how it'd shocking at all.
I'm beyond confused right now.
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In comment 13404200 giantsfan44ab said:
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My point was bazemore, carol and Teague were on winning teams before (counting the old Hawks regime) and after being under the bud-Hawks and haven't played as well when not playing under him.
teague i will give you, i forgot they drafted him..
carroll is what he is, a 3 and d glue guy..
bazemore i think is overpaid and never deserved that contract, they didnt pay carroll to play bazemore them overpaid him
What does drafting them have to do with anything? The point is all these guys have hit their peak under the Bud-Hawks.
Bazemore was on a playoff team before Atlanta. So was Carol. Carrol and Teague were on playoff teams after Atlanta and both fell off.
I really don't understand how this is blasphemy to say there are teams with proven track records of getting the most of their players. I don't see how it'd shocking at all.
bevause i dont see how the hawks are considered this great well run team..
they are the definition of a treadmill team...
the spurs are a great well run team that develops players..
the warriors ate a great run team that develops players..
turning players off the scrap heap and turning them into role players is not some great development to me, sorry i just dont think so
I really have no idea where you are going with this. How is that relevant at all? Bud inherited a team with good players (but not superstars) and won 60 games with them 2 years later.
What does being stuck with a team with average talent have remotely anything to do with player development?
but i dont view thebhawks as this team that just develops players, sorry i dont
Spurs don't win 1 ring without Duncan.
Klay and Steph were on path to becoming all stars before Kerr even step foot there.
Milsap, horford and Dwight aren't Duncan, Kawhi, Steph and Klay.
His WS/48 is about the same as KPs and he's the same age.
There are key differences. KP hasnt made his leap yet, like ZL did this year. Everyone's got that leap in them. KP has a year less on him. KP doesnt currently have a major knee injury. And he's just a different prospect -- still physically not remotely done, YOU HOPE. A unicorn shooter/rim protector. I just think there is a lot more projectability on KP. I.e. I can tell myself a story that he's going to get a lot better and be an unstoppable volume shooter who murders defenses. ZL it's a different story. Still a good one.
But in any event, if we were a year out of giving KP 40 million/per and this is what he was after THREE seasons, I wouldnt be doing backflips. I'd be worried
but i dont view thebhawks as this team that just develops players, sorry i dont
Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Again, where was this superstar that was in Atlanta that the Hawks failed to capitalize on? There hasn't been one player on the Hawks sine Wilkins that even sniffs the pedigree of the guys the Spurs and warriors had.
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
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if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
I really have no idea where you are going with this. How is that relevant at all? Bud inherited a team with good players (but not superstars) and won 60 games with them 2 years later.
What does being stuck with a team with average talent have remotely anything to do with player development?
because he said the hawks are a much better run organization than the knicks, fine...
so i asked him if the knicks became the hawks are you then happy with the job phil did? so if this knicks team got the 5th seed and then they brought everyone back and got the 5th seed every year and won 1 round, are you happy?
my point being if you think the hawks are such a great well run organization then you must be happy with that
Dont think the Jesuits can hire after the Gold Club trial.
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that is how i view the hawks...
but i dont view thebhawks as this team that just develops players, sorry i dont
Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Again, where was this superstar that was in Atlanta that the Hawks failed to capitalize on? There hasn't been one player on the Hawks sine Wilkins that even sniffs the pedigree of the guys the Spurs and warriors had.
so the warriors didnt develop curry thompson or green who was a second round pick for that matter?
the spurs didnt develop leonard who was a mid round pick or parker or ginobli who were 2md round picks?
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if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
you would? how is that fun to watch knowing your team will never sniff a championship? and really have no avenue to get there
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Certainly is a big downside. But comparatively he's like what, 1 year older than josh Jackson?
His WS/48 is about the same as KPs and he's the same age.
There are key differences. KP hasnt made his leap yet, like ZL did this year. Everyone's got that leap in them. KP has a year less on him. KP doesnt currently have a major knee injury. And he's just a different prospect -- still physically not remotely done, YOU HOPE. A unicorn shooter/rim protector. I just think there is a lot more projectability on KP. I.e. I can tell myself a story that he's going to get a lot better and be an unstoppable volume shooter who murders defenses. ZL it's a different story. Still a good one.
But in any event, if we were a year out of giving KP 40 million/per and this is what he was after THREE seasons, I wouldnt be doing backflips. I'd be worried
Why is a 21 year old permitted only one "leap"? Everyone thought GF made his "leap" until this year came along. He made a second one. Same thing with Davis.
Here for a better position comp. what about derozan? He made his "leap" year 2 and then stagnated, until he was 24 he made his second "leap" and became an all star.
And then comes this year and he's on another level, a third mini-leap so to speak. A top 3 SG. From a physical perspective, what does derozan have that Lavine doesn't? 2 inches? I think lavine more than makes up for it as a crazy 3 point shooter and a pretty good passer for a 2 guard. I can easily see lavine as an all star one day if he was in the EC (maybe west too, he has more talent than say, Gordon Hayward, who made it).
I guess if you're really concerned about the knee injury, but he's not the only player to have torn his acl before. I don't think it's jabari Parker bad, who had injury issues even before his first tear. I'd be worried if we were trading the pick for Parker, lavines seems more of a freak thing.
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In comment 13404219 nygiants16 said:
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if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
you would? how is that fun to watch knowing your team will never sniff a championship? and really have no avenue to get there
Over the garbage they are currently producing? Yes it would be fun. You keep building off success and hopefully you catch lighting in the bottle like the Mavs did. Bud is a great coach who I would love to have for the Knicks. This is only his 4th year with the team. Give him time.
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In comment 13404219 nygiants16 said:
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if the knicks became the hawks and were the 4th or 5th see every year and only winning a round evry year you going to be happy?
If the Knicks got Bud? I would be very happy. I love the way they play. Under him they have made the conf finals, the semi conf finals, and lost in 7 games in the 1st round as a 8th seed.
The Knicks have been under 500 13 of the last 16 seasons. They are an absymal franchise, so yes I would be happy. I would love to win a title but it wouldn't be bad to make the playoffs every year and actually be good and fun to watch.
you would? how is that fun to watch knowing your team will never sniff a championship? and really have no avenue to get there
You never know, maybe Lebron will decide to play baseball for a year or 2 and you'll sneak into the finals!
I'd love to see that. He has paid his dues as an assistant. I think that Georgetown could become a powerhouse again. In a hotbed for talent, a great school in the middle of the city with no football power, and a great tradition.
2. Conditional on KP still having franchise player upside (and I still he does), we should be optimistic about this draft. While it seems to lack generational type talents (few drafts ever do have one), it is very, very deep in players with genuine All-Star potential. If we keep losing, we're gonna have a shot at one.
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In comment 13404232 nygiants16 said:
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that is how i view the hawks...
but i dont view thebhawks as this team that just develops players, sorry i dont
Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Again, where was this superstar that was in Atlanta that the Hawks failed to capitalize on? There hasn't been one player on the Hawks sine Wilkins that even sniffs the pedigree of the guys the Spurs and warriors had.
so the warriors didnt develop curry thompson or green who was a second round pick for that matter?
the spurs didnt develop leonard who was a mid round pick or parker or ginobli who were 2md round picks?
Talent trumps everything. Didn't say they weren't developed. I'm just saying shit needs to change with the Knicks.
Like say if Jimmy Butler was in SA instead of Kawhi. Do you think they'd be much worse, if at all?
I'm confident with the way things are going KP will be an all star. But I don't want his ceiling to stop at say, Kevin love. I want him to become like Dirk (I know, selfish me). Things need to change to foster that type of development. That comes from a coaching standpoint, a roster standpoint, the entire organization. That's the overall point I wanted to make.
Link - ( New Window )
1. He's known to have a strong relationship with Melo so I doubt it's aimed at him (not that Melo is such an amazing leader).
2. For all of these "high quality pros" they brought in (Noah, Lee, Lance Thomas (already here), Sasha (already here) pretty clearly something is off. You can assume he doesn't mean Baker/Kuz/Willy. So if you come back with much of the same team I'd expect very similar results.
Exactly, so I don't know how someone can be confident that the Knicks are any closer to the Spurs than the bulls.
1. He's known to have a strong relationship with Melo so I doubt it's aimed at him (not that Melo is such an amazing leader).
2. For all of these "high quality pros" they brought in (Noah, Lee, Lance Thomas (already here), Sasha (already here) pretty clearly something is off. You can assume he doesn't mean Baker/Kuz/Willy. So if you come back with much of the same team I'd expect very similar results.
This is just based off quotes and on court body language, but it seems like KP's relationship is different with Melo this year. I think he may be tired of playing with him. Who knows though but it seems different this year. Isn't as effusive with his praise of Melo.
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Hitdog still rambling on with his "culture" obsession. Wtf, man. Get a grip. Every freaking NBA thread has to have at least one hitdog post on culture. Ok, we get it. The Nets are the culture front runners of the NBA and every single player wants to play for them because of that awesome culture. Can you move on now and find another weird ass thing to obsess about?
you my friend are a stalker- quite strange.
The Nets fan that shows up on Knicks threads everyday to randomly pick a spot to throw around his "culture" post of the day is calling someone else "quite strange", lol. Classic.
#netsculturerocks
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In comment 13404209 giantsfan44ab said:
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Certainly is a big downside. But comparatively he's like what, 1 year older than josh Jackson?
His WS/48 is about the same as KPs and he's the same age.
There are key differences. KP hasnt made his leap yet, like ZL did this year. Everyone's got that leap in them. KP has a year less on him. KP doesnt currently have a major knee injury. And he's just a different prospect -- still physically not remotely done, YOU HOPE. A unicorn shooter/rim protector. I just think there is a lot more projectability on KP. I.e. I can tell myself a story that he's going to get a lot better and be an unstoppable volume shooter who murders defenses. ZL it's a different story. Still a good one.
But in any event, if we were a year out of giving KP 40 million/per and this is what he was after THREE seasons, I wouldnt be doing backflips. I'd be worried
Why is a 21 year old permitted only one "leap"? Everyone thought GF made his "leap" until this year came along. He made a second one. Same thing with Davis.
Here for a better position comp. what about derozan? He made his "leap" year 2 and then stagnated, until he was 24 he made his second "leap" and became an all star.
And then comes this year and he's on another level, a third mini-leap so to speak. A top 3 SG. From a physical perspective, what does derozan have that Lavine doesn't? 2 inches? I think lavine more than makes up for it as a crazy 3 point shooter and a pretty good passer for a 2 guard. I can easily see lavine as an all star one day if he was in the EC (maybe west too, he has more talent than say, Gordon Hayward, who made it).
I guess if you're really concerned about the knee injury, but he's not the only player to have torn his acl before. I don't think it's jabari Parker bad, who had injury issues even before his first tear. I'd be worried if we were trading the pick for Parker, lavines seems more of a freak thing.
Anthony Davis made one leap really, in year 2. Got better year 3 but I dont think it was a leap. I dont think Derozan made a leap in year 2. I think he got more minutes. He did make a leap at age 24.
Giannis is a freak. A rarity. I wouldnt bet on Lavine being Giannis, or anyone making two significant leaps. Just my rule of thumb. I think you can argue that Lavine did NOT make a leap yet though. I think his game smartened up. But yeah, maybe next season is the leap year and he becomes a 21 PER player.
I still wouldnt move our pick for him. I want my balls in play for the top 2 PGs, given that the fallback is guys I like on better contracts. Thought they can bust. If Melo was 26 instead of old, and we had KP and Willy, I'd say it was right to go for Lavine and make a go of it.
Like if something like that was on the table and we took monk I'd be pissed. Like what is monk except Lavine but 3 inches shorter? There's enough risk with fox where I'd take the salary/knee risk on lavine over a PG with spacing issues.
Wolves would do it to get more complimentary pieces around Wiggins/towns, who will also be getting paid pretty soon too.
You draft like Markannen and bridges next to Wiggins and towns and you're onto something big there. Lavine/Wiggins doesn't seem like it would work out.
1. He's known to have a strong relationship with Melo so I doubt it's aimed at him (not that Melo is such an amazing leader).
2. For all of these "high quality pros" they brought in (Noah, Lee, Lance Thomas (already here), Sasha (already here) pretty clearly something is off. You can assume he doesn't mean Baker/Kuz/Willy. So if you come back with much of the same team I'd expect very similar results.
Re 1.: I think Melo is probably a good guy, which is why he seems well liked around the league. He's also not a good leader. His lack of defensive effort is a leadership failure. I dont think good guy and star must mean you're a leader. Melo seems cut out to be a member of a super team, and not the big dog.
Re 2.: Not in the room, but I cant say. Losing can be toxic but it doesnt get this bad most places. Things really, really seemed to fall apart when Noah went down. I suspect you cant do much leading in street clothes. But Rose seems like a doosh, Jackson is fucking with the team, and Hornacek appears to be pissing off the players (could be him, or trying to be a triangle guy).
Love to hear that, thanks for sharing.
All accounts are that Hornacek yells at KP but refuses to get on Rose or Melo. Guys notice that and probably lose a lot of respect for Hornacek. On top of that, they see him doing a 180 on the offense with the triangle and are probably confused and think less of Hornacek.
I hate to say it, but the more Hornacek coaches, the more his one successful year looks like an outlier. They are some horror stories from Phoenix with the team essentially quitting on him and it appears the same has happened this year.
It won't happen unfortunately, but I would love a clean start next year from Jackson, Hornacek, Melo, and Rose. Bring in a competent experienced GM who brings his own coach. I sure as well would be excited.
Thought on what?
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
Damn not even gonna give him the Warriors?
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Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
Thought on what?
Trashed NYC. Called it dirty, loud etc
Link - ( New Window )
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
SANTA MONICA, Calif. Kristaps Porzingis was the first to see something and say something when he expressed that despite the Knicks early-season success, something was missing. The second-year big man proved to have great foresight.
I think it was pretty easy to tell from the inside that were not that good of a team, Porzingis said after Sundays practice. We can win games based off of our talent, but thats not going to last long, and thats exactly what happened.
With Carmelo Anthony, Rose and Porzingis, the Knicks thought they could be one of the top teams in the East and be able to make some noise in the playoffs. But Rose lamented that they never developed chemistry. We didnt click, he said. We didnt have that connection that we wanted throughout the season. You need that to go far in this league.
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would be a mich better player if he was drafted the spurs
Exactly, so I don't know how someone can be confident that the Knicks are any closer to the Spurs than the bulls.
i never said the knicks were closer to the spurs
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In comment 13404301 DanMetroMan said:
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Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
Thought on what?
Trashed NYC. Called it dirty, loud etc
A kid from Ohio saying that about NYC? Doesn't surprise me.
To be honest I grew up in the area and I sometimes feel that way about NY.
But at the same time, I can see why an NBA star living in the city might have a little bit of a different experience than me lol.
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In comment 13404301 DanMetroMan said:
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Asked if he would change his thought if selected by the Nets or Knicks in the NBA Draft, Hayes said, Youd have no choice. Something you have to live with.
Thought on what?
Trashed NYC. Called it dirty, loud etc
so he hates nyc not necassarily the knicks
"We shouldve been playing it from the beginning of the season, Porzingis said. Were a little behind. I dont know when we can finally start using it properly and making an impact.
The whole first season we played nothing but the triangle. I know it pretty well. I like the offense. It can only work if everyone believes in it and everyone executes it the right way. Were starting to learn it the way we should."
It's clear they weren't on the same page. He's too classy to call guys out.
That scouting report felt a little nitpicky to me. Most college freshman struggle defensively. The mechanics of his shot look fine to me- especially compared to Fox. I could see him being an all star point guard. Good size for the position, can finish in traffic, looks to get others involved, and has a good jumper. I would love him for the Knicks but not sure "he fits the triangle".
That's why the triangle makes me so sad. It's not the best offense for what we have.
In any event, hat tip to hitdog, whatever we do has me worried because the culture seems rotten to the core. Take Rose and Melo off the team and you still have shitbag Dolan doing whatever he does to make the Knicks a team loathed by media and fans who come near it, and a turnstile for coaches and executives. You still have Jackson tweeting and undermining his coaches. It's tough to get excited.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC9N6VZXkTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di-UuCz5vXI
Wow - I might actually tune in, then. I don't hate Lance Thomas, but it's hard not to laugh when he thinks he can hit a floater or put a move on someone.
Shit...so they could possibly win the game now. Not good.
Yup. Mason or Graham.
Josh Jackson dominated in every facet of the game. Was everywhere on defense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC9N6VZXkTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di-UuCz5vXI
Cool thanks for those links. Yeah like I said at the time I admittedly am spotty with my college basketball watching outside of watching the projected top picks (until the tourney at least) but sometimes you throw on a game, see a guy who looks like he could be an NBA player, look him up and not see much about him. Wilson caught my eye. Moves really well for that height and 3 point range. I'm a fan. I'd absolutely be interested in the 2nd round. 7'3 wingspan. Very intriguing name in the 2nd. Not sure what went into his improvement but very interesting skillset
also mills will be there as well..
qonder if they will skype phil in
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implied the locker room chemistry was no good.
Everyone likes Melo, nobody wants to play with him. Melo will be great on a super team as long as there are 3 players better than him and the best player is Lebron. Other than that, he won't win a thing.
SANTA MONICA, Calif. Kristaps Porzingis was the first to see something and say something when he expressed that despite the Knicks early-season success, something was missing. The second-year big man proved to have great foresight.
I think it was pretty easy to tell from the inside that were not that good of a team, Porzingis said after Sundays practice. We can win games based off of our talent, but thats not going to last long, and thats exactly what happened.
With Carmelo Anthony, Rose and Porzingis, the Knicks thought they could be one of the top teams in the East and be able to make some noise in the playoffs. But Rose lamented that they never developed chemistry. We didnt click, he said. We didnt have that connection that we wanted throughout the season. You need that to go far in this league.
Is there a quote I'm missing because nowhere does he discuss the lockerroom chemistry. Everything he says is on the court.
It was just different. Every day it was just something different, Jennings said. It was just like, if we could just stick to what we could do, well be fine. So at times, youd just come into practice and you didnt know what was going on.
Anybody who is watching the game, you know if youre watching the game. When the ball got to the pinch post it was never. , Jennings said, speaking in general terms. You got Derrick Rose, who can score, who can do things. You have (Porzingis). Guys could never really find their shots or find their rhythm. So it was like, somethings wrong with that. You have Derrick Rose who can get to the rim with ease and score. But even he was out there lost. Thats how I looked at it. I looked at it that he didnt know what was going on. KP, he was trying to come into his second year trying to find himself, and he couldnt really find a rhythm either. So its definitely difficult.
People can knock Jennings but I think he's on the ball across the board here
For all of the incessant focus on the triangle, the issue is simple... these guys just aren't that fucking good. The triangle or the "culture" are just excuses.
But man I'd get excited over our 2nd round pick, seems to be a lot of big name college players that might slip. Don't know how much will translate, but it just seems deeper than normal years for some reason.
Not really sure what happened to giving Ndour burn but the last 2 games he's started at center and has averaged 25 and 10,... maybe give the guy a look? Why not?
But man I'd get excited over our 2nd round pick, seems to be a lot of big name college players that might slip. Don't know how much will translate, but it just seems deeper than normal years for some reason.
It's always a tough call with guys like Swanigan (I was a massive Millsap fan in college) and yet similar "okay" athlete bigs often fail but like Millsap the production from Swanigan is top notch. I'd honestly be happy with either one in the second round. If we could come out of the draft with one of Smith, Isaac, Tatum, Markkanen + one of Swanigan or Wilson you won't see me complaining. We will go for 2 young talented pieces to 4.
After the Clippers game he was asked about team chemistry and he flat out said "we didn't come together as a team, not everyone was on board". You want to believe that's just on the court that's cool but I don't. I know for a FACT from a writer that Rose/Melo did not have ANY off court relationship which (and this part is MY opinion) likely helped fracture the locker room. Primary ball handler and "#2" scorer and the "franchise player" not being "cool" is not good to begin with but when you bring in a bunch of "Rose guys" it likely makes matters worse in the locker room.
Just so we are clear, this is the quote I'm referencing. KP was strictly talking about on the court chemistry, as was Jennings. It doesn't take a rocket scientest to see there is none, lol.
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KP said the lockerroom was toxic or there was any problem in the lockerroom because thats what you said yesterday. Is there another quote that you didn't link or something. Everything KP says is about their on the court chemistry which is obvious. I don't think there are any issues with the lockerroom chemistry, I do think there are major issues with how they mesh. There can't be 2 guys that have no interest in defense. There can't be 2 guys that only score and don't help in any other aspect of the game. This has nothing to do with how they mesh off the court.
After the Clippers game he was asked about team chemistry and he flat out said "we didn't come together as a team, not everyone was on board". You want to believe that's just on the court that's cool but I don't. I know for a FACT from a writer that Rose/Melo did not have ANY off court relationship which (and this part is MY opinion) likely helped fracture the locker room. Primary ball handler and "#2" scorer and the "franchise player" not being "cool" is not good to begin with but when you bring in a bunch of "Rose guys" it likely makes matters worse in the locker room.
That's why I asked you for the quote. I was curious to see the quote and when I asked you, you posted a quote about him saying there was no chemistry on the court.
and didnt rose and melo spend thanksgiving together? where is the they hated each other coming from?
? huh? The two things don't HAVE to go hand in hand but they absolutely can. "So far off base"? If players don't like each other it absolutely can spill onto the court. We "outsiders" have said Rose is looking to get paid at the expense of defense right? At the expense of other aspects of his game right? So stuff like that can't spill onto the court? Melo can't (and I'm not defending him) be turned off by the looks he gets with Rose? Melo hasn't really had to deal with a PG (while with the Knicks) dominating the ball. If we "all" talk about Melo being a ballstopper etc then someone like Rose couldn't crimp his style? You are speaking in very odd absolutes I must say.
and didnt rose and melo spend thanksgiving together? where is the they hated each other coming from?
Leadership is lacking on the Knicks and that comes from the top (Phil/Hornacek) however the Knicks player leadership "should" be coming from those 2 and if they don't have a relationship it absolutely can cause some turmoil. Melo is no angel (Amar'e recently took shots at him as well).
2 1st ballot HOFers, 1 of which is one of the most competitive players in the history of pro sports vs. Rose looking to get paid and Melo? Not a fair comparison at all. They also had arguably the greatest coach of all time keeping them together not shrinking violet Jeff Hornacek with his daddy telling him to run the triangle.
Yeah they were. Until they weren't. That is simply false.
I'm suggesting Lebron James and Durant could despise each other and win a title. I'm suggesting a diminished Derrick Rose with a weak head coach/Phil Jackson situation and Melo doing his "thing" his entire time here very possibly helped fracture the team.
And again, Lebron is going to retire top 5 greatest of all time. Talent wins out. Rose doesn't have that, Melo is on the downside.
I know writers my man. You don't believe the locker room is fractured that is fine. That's your view. I know for a fact otherwise.
Melo likely wouldn't be giving Rose the side eye (not literally) if Rose were MVP Rose, no. Because Melo isn't a moron, he would know MVP Rose (or Westbrook etc) would help him toward his goal of winning a title in NY. It's obvious the current team quitting loser is not helping him toward anything.
""Not even thinking money. I've got more than enough money saved. If I stopped playing basketball now, I'll be all right," Rose told reporters in Utah on Wednesday night. "I want to win. I want to be happy and feel at peace with myself wherever I'm at. But being at the negotiating table, you never know. I'm not going to negotiate with people where money is the No. 1 thing I'm asking for. I want to win."
Contestable. Maybe they won despite it not working, because LeBron is so f'ing amazing. It's staggering to me that Love's shooting percentage from 2 or 3 have not improved even a teensy bit in Cleveland, even on much lower volume and not being the #1 option. He has improvement at sub-levels (basically, 10 feet to <3 point), but that gets him no where because now he just takes those low percentage shots rather than getting position down low (massive decline in shots from w/in 3 feet).
It's really remarkable how Love's game diminished in Cleveland.
of course melo will be traded draft night and we will all be happy, then midnight of free agency rose will be resigned and bbi will implode
I know.
Just felt like throwing it out there.
You can actually name any player that played with Kobe too. Everyone hated him.
-Really like Chriss
- Don't want to rile up Greg but I still think there might be "something" there with Len.
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
These guys really shine when you put them on a roster where they can play an appropriate role. And look flawed when they are on teams that must ask too much of them. Classic saga of the NBA role player.
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parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
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need to find a few PJ Tucker types for this roster. Not soon to be 32 year old PJ Tucker but guys like that.
These guys really shine when you put them on a roster where they can play an appropriate role. And look flawed when they are on teams that must ask too much of them. Classic saga of the NBA role player.
Deej,
1000% agree. I just love the way he commits to his role. I'd love to have a 22 year old version of him even on this bad roster. Defense can be contagious. Trading for him would have been pretty dumb but he's a solid player, I don't care what his PER says. He has one role and does it well.
mills will be there with their svouts in memphis tonight
Would have to be around Crawford which would be worse than Rivers.
I think it would be nice, but Im sure we're scouting every game. They'll bring Phil the game tape of the guys they like. Post is portraying it as Phil blowing off his responsibilities, but if we knew one thing going into the Phil-era, it was that his physical condition was really going to limit his ability to make successive trips in a short span.
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In comment 13404838 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
YOU create this "hate" narrative. I was told they don't have "any relationship"/don't speak off the court. That's not the same thing.
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In comment 13404838 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
Not the Nets, they have the best culture in bball.
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In comment 13404830 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
need to find a few PJ Tucker types for this roster. Not soon to be 32 year old PJ Tucker but guys like that.
These guys really shine when you put them on a roster where they can play an appropriate role. And look flawed when they are on teams that must ask too much of them. Classic saga of the NBA role player.
Deej,
1000% agree. I just love the way he commits to his role. I'd love to have a 22 year old version of him even on this bad roster. Defense can be contagious. Trading for him would have been pretty dumb but he's a solid player, I don't care what his PER says. He has one role and does it well.
Yeah, I said a few threads ago that I'd use one of the #2s on the biggest junkyard dog I could find. A strong, tenacious defender. Worry about lack of other skills later. Just a getting a guy like that into practices could pay huge dividends. His D could rub off. He could toughen up KP. etc.
difficult but not impossible. It will be easier to do something like that this summer once there's more cap space floating around the league that can be used to facilitate trades. In a perfect world, there's some other team out there that values Rivers enough to send you something back for him as part of a 3 or 4 way trade.
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pretty awful with the cap/trades. Is there any way for us to dump Melo on LAC without taking back Rivers?
Would have to be around Crawford which would be worse than Rivers.
Crawford actually can be bought out for 3 million after next season. Doesn't really do anything for the Knicks though as Melo is going to opt out after next season so the only "upside" would be making the 2018 Knicks less talented, higher pick.
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pretty awful with the cap/trades. Is there any way for us to dump Melo on LAC without taking back Rivers?
difficult but not impossible. It will be easier to do something like that this summer once there's more cap space floating around the league that can be used to facilitate trades. In a perfect world, there's some other team out there that values Rivers enough to send you something back for him as part of a 3 or 4 way trade.
Just seems on paper like the "best" spot for all parties. Clippers are seemingly going "all-in" on the Paul/Griffin/Jordan trio and we "know" Melo would agree to go there. I'm not getting hard over Brice Johnson, Diamond Stone and a 2022 1st round pick but it might be the best we can do.
OKC would have to be a sign-and-trade I think. The Clips are interesting. If they crash and burn out of the playoffs early this year, their team could look a lot different next summer.
Speaking of the dleague I was curious if Brice Johnson showed any flashes, he only played a few games there but one game might be the worst line I've ever seen
15 minutes 1-7 from the field, -24 +/-, that seems almost impossible to pull off
Presumably they would be able to get a pick or 2 in a Melo deal. The Clippers would be a "very good" team for the next few seasons with that core and likely not too worried about their 2021 and 2023 1sts and/or their 2019, 2020 etc 2nds.
I'm not sure Indy works for a bunch of reasons, but I do think that it's possible Melo opens up his list of acceptable destinations to more teams this summer.
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In comment 13404846 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 13404838 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
parker slept with his wife and that team won a championship
And how many HOFers did they have? 6? I mean c'mon. Bad teams have more fractures in the locker room, especially in NY.
of course bad teams have fractures, because whena team is winning nobody gives a shit about that stuff..
look at the giants, every time they lose the sky is falling and every time they win every one loves each other..
if the giants lost 11 games you think we would hear how much the team likes each other? no
every losing team has fractures...
when the cavs were struggling how many times did we hear how irving lwbron and love could not get along and plah with each other? shit we heard lebron wanted to go back to miami...
its funny at the beginning of the season when the knicks were 14 and 10 melo and rose were close spending thanksgiving together and now they are losing and now they hate each other, funny how that works
YOU create this "hate" narrative. I was told they don't have "any relationship"/don't speak off the court. That's not the same thing.
and i say who gives a shit? if you cant be professional about it then i dont want them on the team...
who cates if people do not hangout off the court
- Long time laughingstock with a lot of off field issues for years. Ones so unbelievable they sound Isola created
- Meddling owner
- Hired a big name "legend" to change up the culture
Can the Knicks follow the Mets path? I find it hard to believe because they have been so bad for so long and I've lost my confidence in Phil Jackson but lets hope.
Talent's an insufficient but necessary condition for being a contender; so is organizational culture. I think the former is far more important and much harder to secure.
I've spent a summer in Indy, I think I could safely say it's not exactly what Melo would have in mind for LaLa.
That being said, you can certainly have talent, a good team culture and players that aren't friends to have success.
obviously a lot of things need to be done before that
I've spent a summer in Indy, I think I could safely say it's not exactly what Melo would have in mind for LaLa.
It would only have to be for one season and then he opts out and goes where he wants. That's why I think he maybe opens up his list a bit this summer.
Clips' 2021 pick unprotected would be intriguing, but I think the Nets/Lakers/Sacto experience, combined with the obvious potential for the Clips to be bad in 4 years, would inhibit them from trading it without lottery protections. In any event, it's a shitty return for Carmelo.
Talent's an insufficient but necessary condition for being a contender; so is organizational culture. I think the former is far more important and much harder to secure.
At the end of the day the draft will make/break us. The expectation is add good young talent and slowly things will change Dolan or not. I really wish I were confident Phil was willing to go "full rebuild". I don't even care about the triangle, run it, don't run it. Just don't treat the fans like morons. This is a bad team that won't be fixed with 1 good pick and chasing veteran FA's. If you nail this pick, maybe get a solid rotation guy in the second and maybe you sign a guy like Ian Clark (just using him as an example of a FA that makes sense).
Then maybe at this time NEXT season, we can both be a "bad" team but one with young talent, where next years pick is truly exciting, adding another high level talent to our existing core... maybe at that point you discuss these "veteran solid" FA types.
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I think that would make them a bit better than the Hawks. Maybe not quite on the wizards/C's/TOR level.
I've spent a summer in Indy, I think I could safely say it's not exactly what Melo would have in mind for LaLa.
It would only have to be for one season and then he opts out and goes where he wants. That's why I think he maybe opens up his list a bit this summer.
Still, I don't think he'd do it. And if the only reason he'd do it is because he'd dip for somewhere else, Larry bird wouldn't do it.
I think the more likely scenario is Bird accepts the inevitable and deals PG to LA from 50 cents on the dollar.
Talent's an insufficient but necessary condition for being a contender; so is organizational culture. I think the former is far more important and much harder to secure.
Agree. "Culture" is not some mystical thing that only a select few can implement. Hire smart people to run and coach the team, acquire talented players who work hard...and the culture will take care of itself.
Clips' 2021 pick unprotected would be intriguing, but I think the Nets/Lakers/Sacto experience, combined with the obvious potential for the Clips to be bad in 4 years, would inhibit them from trading it without lottery protections. In any event, it's a shitty return for Carmelo.
There is no denying barring a shocker the return for Melo will be underwhelming. I don't see any scenario where we are "wowed" by a Melo return. I keep parroting the same thing but at this point simply agreeing Rome wasn't built in a day, and at the very least using 2018 as a "rebuilding/development/assessment" season would be enough reason for me to be "excited" by most reasonable Melo returns (even a crap 2021 type pick headliner).
There are only 2 issues I have with Phil...
1 - Talk of adding free agents. None of this stuff is directly from Phil's mouth, so it's possible we could be wrong about this. However, I don't want to spend big money on ANY non-elite free agents.
2 - Phil's previous comments about the importance of a PG. I do wonder if he would pass on Smith or Fox for reasons having to do with the offensive system. But we'll get to that once we figure out the lottery order.
This is the correct path. I'm just doubtful the follow it. I'm expecting them to let Rose walk and then make a hard run at a Holiday Brother combo package, followed by settling for 4 years 64 million for Jeff Teague. I'd sign tomorrow for Rose walking, Melo dealt and very minimal additions to the roster (I'd still look at some of the younger FA options if the price were right, Clark, Muscala types.
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If we trade Melo, let Rose walk and don't sign any major FA's, then we are clearly going about it the right way. The answer is close.
This is the correct path. I'm just doubtful the follow it. I'm expecting them to let Rose walk and then make a hard run at a Holiday Brother combo package, followed by settling for 4 years 64 million for Jeff Teague. I'd sign tomorrow for Rose walking, Melo dealt and very minimal additions to the roster (I'd still look at some of the younger FA options if the price were right, Clark, Muscala types.
I'm getting a little less confident as time goes on, but I still would choose to let Phil play it out rather than starting over at this point. Honestly, I think it's more Dolan than anything else, I think he will be pressuring this FO to put a winner out in their 3rd season.
There are only 2 issues I have with Phil...
1 - Talk of adding free agents. None of this stuff is directly from Phil's mouth, so it's possible we could be wrong about this. However, I don't want to spend big money on ANY non-elite free agents.
2 - Phil's previous comments about the importance of a PG. I do wonder if he would pass on Smith or Fox for reasons having to do with the offensive system. But we'll get to that once we figure out the lottery order.
I wasn't trying to take the KP pick credit away from Phil. My point was outside of that one moment/decision the Knicks remain a disaster. The off-season was horrendous but even if you don't share that view, the off-season suggested he felt the Knicks were going to be good this season. Didn't work. Doing "that" again would basically = Phil Jackson has no clue what he's doing. Not a single rational person could look at this team and aay "Jeff Teague at 4 years 60+ makes the Knicks a good team" The 2015 Knicks "thought" they would be good, weren't and drafted a potential stud, Phil spent big money on veterans with the idea the 2016-2017 Knicks would be "good", they weren't. Until we see evidence that Phil has given up on this idea then we have to assume that is what is going to happen again.
I was fine with Lee signing. I think most fans were more than fine with going after Noah.
It's the valuation and direction I'm not fine with. Phil doesn't understand the potential of this team (or he has another agenda to act like it can compete). At the end of the day he wasn't paid the big bucks to do what Sam Hinkie did (who currently doesn't have a job in the NBA)
And while he was going after alright players, he went on a shopping spree with Dolan's wallet.
Let him handle the draft. Hell, I don't even think we'll sniff the big ticket items in free agency because
1) they will have more financial incentives with their current teams
2)they won't choose the Knicks over their current or other teams at the same prices
I don't think it's physically possible for phil to fuck up the Knicks situation anymore. Sure, I want a GM with the clear direction to rebuild, but I think there are limited ways to go about this offseason in general. So whatever, phil stays 1 more year and then we get a GM we can have more faith in.
Melo, Rose, KP, Lee all remained as healthy as you can expect as a group. Noah was hurt. The roster sucks. Adding mediocre veterans doesn't change that.
I was fine with Lee signing. I think most fans were more than fine with going after Noah.
It's the valuation and direction I'm not fine with. Phil doesn't understand the potential of this team (or he has another agenda to act like it can compete). At the end of the day he wasn't paid the big bucks to do what Sam Hinkie did (who currently doesn't have a job in the NBA)
And while he was going after alright players, he went on a shopping spree with Dolan's wallet.
Let him handle the draft. Hell, I don't even think we'll sniff the big ticket items in free agency because
1) they will have more financial incentives with their current teams
2)they won't choose the Knicks over their current or other teams at the same prices
I don't think it's physically possible for phil to fuck up the Knicks situation anymore. Sure, I want a GM with the clear direction to rebuild, but I think there are limited ways to go about this offseason in general. So whatever, phil stays 1 more year and then we get a GM we can have more faith in.
My concerns aren't the big ticket FA. My concerns are guys like Jeff Teague, There are only so many starting PG roles. If the Knicks offer him the biggest deal would it really be shocking to see a guy like that sign here?
Not because of name but because of the money they will be getting.
I am 0 concerned that any of those PGs will be on the Knicks next season.
Not because of name but because of the money they will be getting.
I am 0 concerned that any of those PGs will be on the Knicks next season.
Your lips to God's ears. These are the exact kind of moves I would loathe. I can already see the BBI arguments "I just want to see a better brand of basketball" "with better PG play I could see us winning 50 games with Tatum and Teague"
David Pick @IAmDPick
Source tells me Nets on hunt for Euroleague PG, on tonight's radar: Belgrade ace Stefan Jovic. BRK also saw Teodosic, Heurtel, Wanamaker.
No. That would be a terrible move. They traded Melo for presumably a crap return (lets be honest here on paper the Knicks return 99% is not going to be "better" than what Melo gives them next year, at least not in 2018). Rose doesn't play defense (which impacts the other defenders) and he doesn't do a particularly good job setting up KP/Willy.
I'd rather give 35 year old Sergio a 1 year $15M deal than almost any other rumored FA target.
And Sergio won't even cost that much.
Link - ( New Window )
why do you expect more of the same?
the year they signed afflalo lopez and oquinn they had no draft pick coming up so they tried to make the playoffs..
last off season they decided 1 last try to build something around melo it didnt work and luckily for them the team bottomed out...
this year they have all their draftmpicks, all future draft picks, rose can walk and they will most likely trade melo...
the player they will be building around is 22 so there will be no rush like there was with melo..
i really dont see phil going for the quick fix this summer because he doesnt have to
isnt the story that he really doesnt want to leave and there are teams overseas willing to make him one of the highest paid players..
plus he is already 29, unless he really wants to play in the nba i dont see why he comes over now
No. The only reason to trade Melo, which is something they should do, is to start developing this team around KP/Willy/2017 pick and Rose doesn't help that. If that trio does well, great. If they struggle to win and land high in the lottery again, possibly even better as they'll add another (potentially) significant piece for the future.
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in theory makes sense (best Euro PG, wants guaranteed minutes/role) but I've read he's heavily a pick n roll guy. In theory that would be great for KP/Willy but not sure if that works in the system we are going to be running. We do very little pnr
isnt the story that he really doesnt want to leave and there are teams overseas willing to make him one of the highest paid players..
plus he is already 29, unless he really wants to play in the nba i dont see why he comes over now
He's implied he both wants to get paid and play for a contender AND get a guaranteed role so unless he's just BSing odds are he just stays over there. How many contenders are giving a 30 year old big money and minutes? I guess I could see a team like the Spurs doing something there if Mills were to bolt. This other kid Jovic sounds more likely to leave Europe.
a lot of the overseas guys get to a point where it is just not worth it then when they finally like ok, they are past their lrime..
i think that is why kuz decided to come when he did
i also wonder if kp recruited him a little bit...
i also wonder if kp recruited him a little bit...
I suspect part of it was Juancho saying he wanted to come directly to the NBA.
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in strategy from Phil/Mills to sit out the free agent market this summer. The last two summers, they've spent every last cap dollar on whoever would take their money. I expect more of the same this summer....with perhaps a lousy Melo trade thrown in just to really piss me off.
why do you expect more of the same?
the year they signed afflalo lopez and oquinn they had no draft pick coming up so they tried to make the playoffs..
last off season they decided 1 last try to build something around melo it didnt work and luckily for them the team bottomed out...
this year they have all their draftmpicks, all future draft picks, rose can walk and they will most likely trade melo...
the player they will be building around is 22 so there will be no rush like there was with melo..
i really dont see phil going for the quick fix this summer because he doesnt have to
Phil is old and stupid. The owner is just stupid. That's why I expect more of the same. And they do not have all of their picks going forward. When you factor in second rounders they are draft pick negative. And they don't own their own #2 until 2022...not really ideal if they plan on rebuilding.
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Hearing Magic Johnson, knowing UCLA/Kentucky is a scouting must first-hand, will reluctantly miss Shaquille O'Neal's statue ceremony tonight
they have 2 2nd round picks in this years draft
2018 1st and a 2nd
2019 1st and 2 2nds
2020 1st
2021 1st
so again tell me how they ate draft pick deficient?
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
C'mon. If there were so little value to scouting in person why would teams even send scouts at all?
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
he doesnt, knicks gm and their lead scout will be in memphis
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Arash MarkaziVerified account @ArashMarkazi 2m2 minutes ago
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
he doesnt, knicks gm and their lead scout will be in memphis
So the Lakers lead scout won't be in Memphis? Magic is going alone? c'mon lol
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In comment 13405112 DanMetroMan said:
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Arash MarkaziVerified account @ArashMarkazi 2m2 minutes ago
Confirmed guests for Shaq's statue unveiling today include Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Jerry West, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Derek Fisher.
he doesnt, knicks gm and their lead scout will be in memphis
So the Lakers lead scout won't be in Memphis? Magic is going alone? c'mon lol
so because magic is going that means phil has to?
is colangelo going to college games?
is phoenixs president going?
is vlade going to be there?
is layden going to be there?
In 2009, Mills left MSG and joined Magic Johnson Enterprises where he helped create the Athletes & Entertainers Wealth Management Group, LLC (A&E).[5] of which he was a partner.[6]
On September 26, 2013, the New York Knicks announced Mills would be the executive vice president and general manager of the organization.[7]
I must be missing the part where it highlights his scouting accumen
Do we know if Jerry Reese or Marc Ross went to "scout" players in BCS bowl games?
how do you even know he has not seen these players live?
Jason McIntyre ✔ @jasonrmcintyre
Okafor is dribbling OUT of double teams, then around the foul line, then switching to his left hand for a layup?
Phil Jackson, drooling
9:25 PM - 18 Feb 2015
20 20 Retweets 13 13 likes
Jacksons comments after the gameGreat prospecthave him facing tampering charges.
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Adrian Wojnarowski ✔ @WojVerticalNBA
Sources: Knicks president Phil Jackson will likely face a league fine for commenting on OSU's D'Angelo Russell, a draft-ineligible player.
10:42 AM - 27 Feb 2015
Matt Jones @KySportsRadio
Phil Jackson at UK practice today and will be at game tomorrow
2:40 PM - 27 Feb 2015
204 204 Retweets 216 216 likes
Kyle Tucker @KyleTucker_SEC
Kentucky credentialed 20 NBA scouts/GMs for today's game against Arkansas, including Phil Jackson, who's been here since yesterday.
3:20 PM - 28 Feb 2015
42 42 Retweets 25 25 likes
Do we know if Jerry Reese or Marc Ross went to "scout" players in BCS bowl games?
They absolutely do. Phil as a posted below was noted as attending multiple games in person, thus the famous illegal Russell quote.
But this seems a bit of nothing.
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Do many GMs or team presidents personally attend games for prospects?
Do we know if Jerry Reese or Marc Ross went to "scout" players in BCS bowl games?
They absolutely do. Phil as a posted below was noted as attending multiple games in person, thus the famous illegal Russell quote.
Okay, that's good context. But by this line of thinking allowing for the fact that he does travel maybe he's already seen UCLA and Kentucky and it's just gone unmentioned.
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Do many GMs or team presidents personally attend games for prospects?
Do we know if Jerry Reese or Marc Ross went to "scout" players in BCS bowl games?
They absolutely do. Phil as a posted below was noted as attending multiple games in person, thus the famous illegal Russell quote.
and again how do younknow he hasnt?
"After losing three of its last five games and allowing LSU to score 58 second-half points Tuesday night, John Calipari said Friday his team has to get defensive to get back on track, and that includes Malik Monk making a bigger impact on that side of the court.
However, the idea to play Monk less if his defense doesnt improve was not by the coach, but actually the player himself.
"I said to him, 'you're not rebounding, you're not defending the way you should. How are we dealing with this?' Calipari said Friday about his talk with Monk about defense. "He said, 'coach, tell me and if I don't do it, sit me.' That's how they should feel. If I'm not doing my job, sit me out."
That sounds like a player whos more than willing to admit his faults and correct them. Monk has been unfairly criticized recently for his lack of defense, which this team as a whole is struggling with."
Link - ( New Window )
Let's be honest about Oakley. He's a fucking maniac.
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took another shot at Ewing today apparently per TMZ
Let's be honest about Oakley. He's a fucking maniac.
No doubt about it. I understand him knocking the guys who work for Dolan but Ewing isn't a Dolan lackey. Far from it.
Speaking of TMZ and taking shots... Ron Harper on Rose
Doesn't matter where Derrick Rose ends up in free agency ... he'll NEVER win a championship -- so says Ron Harper.
Earlier this week, Rose says finding a winning team is more important than a big contract when he searches for a new team this summer.
"Not even thinking money," Rose said ... "I'm not going to negotiate with people where money is the number one thing I'm asking for. I want to win."
So, we went to Harper -- a 5-time NBA champ -- and asked which team could be the right fit.
Harper says it won't matter -- he ain't gonna win.
I also have to say that it's more than a bit amusing how enthralled the basketball media has been with Magic Johnson given what a disaster he was as a coach.
I also have to say that it's more than a bit amusing how enthralled the basketball media has been with Magic Johnson given what a disaster he was as a coach.
guarantee if he doea a bad job media will say it is not his fault..
remember when phil was rumored to go to lakers all the media was saying how great a move it would be for.lakers them he went to knicks and it became a hlrrible moved
hasnt jeannie and magic already said they want to get superstars to la
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far the one + I'll give Magic is he seems committed to a full rebuild/tanking. We'll see if he actually continues with that (or if Jeannie allows that) but for now that's one thing I like about him over Phil. If Phil has a change of heart this off-season I'll adjust my view.
hasnt jeannie and magic already said they want to get superstars to la
Who doesn't want superstars? Easier to add superstars with either appealing young talent to pair them with or trade for. Superstars are always an ideal outcome.