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NFT: Mets vs. Astros- THORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 10:56 am
Reyes 3B
Cabrera SS
Cespedes LF
Granderson CF
Walker 2B
Bruce RF
Duda 1B
d'Arnaud C
Syndergaard RHP

- Losing Kang is a massive blow to the Pirates

James Wagner & #10004; @ByJamesWagner
T.J. Rivera, Seth Lugo and Rene Rivera are back in Mets camp after being away with Team Puerto Rico. All the WBC Mets have now returned.
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Opening Day lineup.  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 10:58 am : link
.
Thats a  
spike : 3/24/2017 11:00 am : link
GREAT lineup.

Duda is batting 7th? Phew
How has TDA looked so far?  
Chris684 : 3/24/2017 11:03 am : link
Has he been productive?

Any changes to his swing and that big loop he had last year?
TDA  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 11:10 am : link
has looked great offensively. Throwing is still horrendous.
TDA is batting like .350 this spring  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 11:12 am : link
Nice, compact swing. If he stays healthy I think this is finally going to be the year we've been expecting from him offensively.

His work defensively is another story...
I have my  
bigbluehoya : 3/24/2017 11:13 am : link
Draft tonight. Thinking about a late round flier on D'Arnaud if I don't end up with one of the top 2-3 guys.

It's a 1 catcher league, I think piecing together D'Arnaud with a currently injured Tom Murphy could be a really nice value play.
Good news..  
Chris684 : 3/24/2017 11:19 am : link
I'd rather have a bad defensive catcher who can hit than a bad defensive catcher who can't hit.
RE: I have my  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13404967 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
Draft tonight. Thinking about a late round flier on D'Arnaud if I don't end up with one of the top 2-3 guys.

It's a 1 catcher league, I think piecing together D'Arnaud with a currently injured Tom Murphy could be a really nice value play.


Mine is Sunday. At C I still like Zunino as a post-hype sleeper
Biggest thing for me is the pitchers...  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 11:26 am : link
Especially Thor, getting better at holding runners on. That will mitigate a little bit of d'Arnaud's throwing issues. If we have a hard time holding runners again, players are going to run wild on us.

Really hope we can get that under control this year. It became a big problem last year.
I waited til the very end to grab a catcher...  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 11:29 am : link
I think I was the last team to take one and I wound up with McCann.. which I'm not really too thrilled with.

d'Arnaud actually went undrafted and Zunino is available. Wondering if I should make a play for one of them. I feel like McCann is totally replaceable.. I'd rather have a guy with upside.
RE: I waited til the very end to grab a catcher...  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13404994 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I think I was the last team to take one and I wound up with McCann.. which I'm not really too thrilled with.

d'Arnaud actually went undrafted and Zunino is available. Wondering if I should make a play for one of them. I feel like McCann is totally replaceable.. I'd rather have a guy with upside.


It's always a roll of the dice with those later catchers. I'm in a 2 catcher league (I already have Gary Sanchez) but there is something nice about having 2 decent catchers. TDA certainly has upside (injuries obviously a major red flag). Zunino is just a personal "buy low" sleeper for me. His line drive, hard hit ball numbers were excellent. I think he still has Gattis-like upside.
Reyes is having a tough spring offensively  
PhiPsi125 : 3/24/2017 11:41 am : link
He's such a spark...I'm sure he'll ramp it up.
I'd  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 11:43 am : link
swap Duda and Bruce. I think there is a better chance Duda gets on ahead of Bruce vs. the alternative.
RE: Biggest thing for me is the pitchers...  
PhiPsi125 : 3/24/2017 11:46 am : link
In comment 13404985 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Especially Thor, getting better at holding runners on. That will mitigate a little bit of d'Arnaud's throwing issues. If we have a hard time holding runners again, players are going to run wild on us.

Really hope we can get that under control this year. It became a big problem last year.


Honestly (and I could be dead wrong on this) but I think his "slower time to the plate" issue was way overblown last season. I'm sure that is part of it but I believe the bigger issue was paying attention to people on base and having a catcher that couldn't throw out runners well (when TdA was catching). Then it was made a big story and EVERYONE started running on him, which is only going to spike the numbers and story. Massively increase the steal attempts on ANY pitcher and the numbers likely spike.

If he can manage to keep attention to the runners, then things should improve.

Or, you know, just strike everyone out.
RE: RE: I waited til the very end to grab a catcher...  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 11:47 am : link
In comment 13405013 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 13404994 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I think I was the last team to take one and I wound up with McCann.. which I'm not really too thrilled with.

d'Arnaud actually went undrafted and Zunino is available. Wondering if I should make a play for one of them. I feel like McCann is totally replaceable.. I'd rather have a guy with upside.



It's always a roll of the dice with those later catchers. I'm in a 2 catcher league (I already have Gary Sanchez) but there is something nice about having 2 decent catchers. TDA certainly has upside (injuries obviously a major red flag). Zunino is just a personal "buy low" sleeper for me. His line drive, hard hit ball numbers were excellent. I think he still has Gattis-like upside.


My league is very power heavy.. so guys who can pop a lot of HR's have a ton of value and K's are only -0.5 so even if they're high-whiff guys, a-la Chris Davis, it doesn't really kill their value.

That's why Zunino is kind of intriguing. Even if he doesn't hit for high average.. if he winds up near the top of the catcher crop in HR's, he'd be worth owning.
RE: RE: Biggest thing for me is the pitchers...  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 11:48 am : link
In comment 13405022 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13404985 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Especially Thor, getting better at holding runners on. That will mitigate a little bit of d'Arnaud's throwing issues. If we have a hard time holding runners again, players are going to run wild on us.

Really hope we can get that under control this year. It became a big problem last year.



Honestly (and I could be dead wrong on this) but I think his "slower time to the plate" issue was way overblown last season. I'm sure that is part of it but I believe the bigger issue was paying attention to people on base and having a catcher that couldn't throw out runners well (when TdA was catching). Then it was made a big story and EVERYONE started running on him, which is only going to spike the numbers and story. Massively increase the steal attempts on ANY pitcher and the numbers likely spike.

If he can manage to keep attention to the runners, then things should improve.

Or, you know, just strike everyone out.


Yeah, I 100% think it's correctable. I think it's more technique than delivery. Just hoping it's something they worked on ironing out so we can limit that shit from happening again this year.
Steals are almost always against the pitcher  
Shecky : 3/24/2017 12:23 pm : link
As much as people want to not believe that.

It's also something that rarely improves, except incrementally over time at best.

Having said that, I'll take a healthy Thor with problems holding runners on over almost any pitcher in all of baseball.
Oh, I don't argue that.  
PhiPsi125 : 3/24/2017 12:27 pm : link
But having a poor throwing catcher shouldn't be discounted.
The NY Times  
sshin05 : 3/24/2017 12:28 pm : link
article on Bruce has opened my eyes to him. Anybody who is open to new ideas and suggestions esp with new data looks good in my book. Hopefully, he'll have a great offensive year.
I thought Rivera  
pjcas18 : 3/24/2017 12:28 pm : link
was mostly Thor's personal catcher last year, and TDA only sparingly caught him, just my impression?
RE: I thought Rivera  
sshin05 : 3/24/2017 12:31 pm : link
In comment 13405093 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
was mostly Thor's personal catcher last year, and TDA only sparingly caught him, just my impression?


That was more of a byproduct of baserunners stealing off of Thor left and right.
RE: RE: I thought Rivera  
pjcas18 : 3/24/2017 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13405105 sshin05 said:
Quote:
In comment 13405093 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


was mostly Thor's personal catcher last year, and TDA only sparingly caught him, just my impression?



That was more of a byproduct of baserunners stealing off of Thor left and right.


we can all surmise that, but I was responding to Phi's comment about Thor and the SB's:

Quote:
.....I'm sure that is part of it but I believe the bigger issue was paying attention to people on base and having a catcher that couldn't throw out runners well (when TdA was catching)....
RE: The NY Times  
Shecky : 3/24/2017 12:38 pm : link
In comment 13405092 sshin05 said:
Quote:
article on Bruce has opened my eyes to him. Anybody who is open to new ideas and suggestions esp with new data looks good in my book. Hopefully, he'll have a great offensive year.


It's definitely a positive sign, but I think I mentioned the other day that it's more a product of him coming from the Reds than anything else.
so is Thor working to keep runners where they are  
spike : 3/24/2017 12:41 pm : link
this spring?
You are correct, pj. Rivera primarily caught for Thor.  
PhiPsi125 : 3/24/2017 12:42 pm : link
I thought that TdA caught for Thor more than he did but it was only 4 start. However, 12 out of his 48 basestealers came in those 4 games.

Again, not trying to imply that stolen bases are mostly a catcher issue. But I do hope that TdA can improve on that. But if he can hit his stride offensively, I can live with the defense.
TDA - I'm keeping my hopes for him VERY low this year  
NYG27 : 3/24/2017 12:49 pm : link
He hits great almost every spring training and parts of April. Then like clockwork, something gets banged up and nicked. To which, his swing changes and he's not the same offensively.

I really like TDA and hoping this is the year he stays healthy and produces but not counting on it. If he plays more then 80 games, I'll be thrilled!
Jeez, we really can't stop anyone from stealing.  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 2:29 pm : link
.
.  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 2:43 pm : link
Anthony DiComo‏Verified account @AnthonyDiComo 3m3 minutes ago
More
Travis d'Arnaud is actually 0-for-12 throwing out base stealers this spring. He got credit for his only caught stealing on a Matz pickoff.
What's the backup catcher situation looking like at this point?  
Eric on Li : 3/24/2017 3:11 pm : link
that's 1 area i'm still pretty surprised we haven't at least added a few bodies.
RE: What's the backup catcher situation looking like at this point?  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 3:31 pm : link
In comment 13405462 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
that's 1 area i'm still pretty surprised we haven't at least added a few bodies.


They did not bring anybody in (even on a minor league deal). It's Rivera/Plawecki and then 27 year old minor leaguer Xorge Carrillo.
This is a real statistic I wish more baseball fans would listen to....  
ZGiants98 : 3/24/2017 4:01 pm : link
Do people know how much catching throws impact the average game?? According to BP's "Throwing Runs" metric the best catcher in baseball saved his team 2.6 runs in 2016. TWO POINT SIX OVER THE ENTIRE SEASON. That worth .016 runs a game, or in other words completely nothing.

Throwing out runners might be the biggest waste of a stat in sports history.

Now compare that to pitch framing which directly impacts thousands of calls, ect. per year.

It's ridiculous.
Sounds  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 4:04 pm : link
like Rene Rivera will be catching opening day.
Salas  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 4:07 pm : link
reportedly looked "awful". Might not be ready for opening day either.
Today's conversation was timely  
Shecky : 3/24/2017 5:04 pm : link
TDA having an interesting day.

Usually not good when you barely reach the mound when trying to throw a runner out. And your SS can't stop from laughing at your throw.

Then not even close on a pitch out...
Some  
DanMetroMan : 3/24/2017 5:26 pm : link
are interpreting Thor's post game comments as a subtle jab at TDA.
I'd be frustrated too.  
arcarsenal : 3/24/2017 5:41 pm : link
The guy literally can't throw anyone out. I could steal a base on him.
They should have picked up Norris  
Rflairr : 3/24/2017 9:20 pm : link
TDA is an embarrassment back there
.  
ZGiants98 : 3/24/2017 9:51 pm : link
David Lennon ✔ @DPLennon
TC reiterated #Mets feelings on dArnaud. As long as he contributes at the plate, theyre not going to sweat him behind it.
.  
ZGiants98 : 3/24/2017 9:52 pm : link
Mike Puma ✔ @NYPost_Mets
Collins on d'Arnaud, who is hitting .325 this spring: "If he's driving in a ton of runs, you will ignore what the throwing is like."
.  
ZGiants98 : 3/24/2017 9:53 pm : link
Michael Mayer @themainemets
Rene Rivera was absolutely horrendous, cost Syndergaard strikes and raised his pitch count.
.  
ZGiants98 : 3/24/2017 9:54 pm : link
Michael Mayer @themainemets
The one thing that continues to confuse me about anti-pitch framing Mets fans.

You saw a prime example of it the reverse effect in WC game
.  
ZGiants98 : 3/24/2017 9:55 pm : link
Matt Ehalt @MattEhalt
Terry says its speeding up the throw for Travis. Said throws have velocity but just too slow.
I'd like to know what Rivera's percentage of throwing guys out  
Rob in Rockaway : 3/24/2017 9:57 pm : link
when he caught Thor last year was. It really seemed to me the catchers had pretty much no chance.
Got some complimentary Kids club tickets to Angels-Mets in May  
spike : 3/24/2017 9:57 pm : link
It will be our 4 year old's first baseball game.

So psyched!
RE: I'd like to know what Rivera's percentage of throwing guys out  
ZGiants98 : 3/24/2017 11:29 pm : link
In comment 13405865 Rob in Rockaway said:
Quote:
when he caught Thor last year was. It really seemed to me the catchers had pretty much no chance.


Yeah and he was considered to have one of the best arms in the business. Thor fucking sucks at holding runners on. Oh well.
Yes, Thor sucks at holding runners on. And what's alarming is that  
PhiPsi125 : 3/25/2017 12:50 am : link
it seems they haven't worked on it at all given how today's game went. You think they would work on this glaring issue given the embarrassment of what happened last year. Every pitcher holds runners on. One step closer to first base is likely the difference between safe and out.

But...TdA is just embarrassingly bad at throwing out runners. Every one of his throws were awful. It's funny that TC mentioned velocity because while watching the replays I thought the throws looked slow.

And Z, I don't disagree that catchers throwing out runners probably isn't a big impact. However, that is during a normal game. If every game was like a Thor/TdA game, the impact would be much much greater. Teams run at will on the both of them.
Phi  
Shecky : 3/25/2017 9:32 am : link
To say it has been worked on a ton all offseason would be an understatement. It's not easily fixed, nor quickly. And will never be "fixed", just make it less painful.
RE: Phi  
PhiPsi125 : 3/25/2017 10:06 am : link
In comment 13406122 Shecky said:
Quote:
To say it has been worked on a ton all offseason would be an understatement. It's not easily fixed, nor quickly. And will never be "fixed", just make it less painful.


Fair enough. It's confusing to me why it's so hard for a career pitcher to hold runners on, but you'd know better than me.
RE: RE: Phi  
Shecky : 3/25/2017 10:24 am : link
In comment 13406139 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13406122 Shecky said:


Quote:


To say it has been worked on a ton all offseason would be an understatement. It's not easily fixed, nor quickly. And will never be "fixed", just make it less painful.



Fair enough. It's confusing to me why it's so hard for a career pitcher to hold runners on, but you'd know better than me.


Because Thor is really REALLY bad at it. As in, "one of the worst ever" bad. So even if it improves this year, he will likely be the worst in baseball at it. But again, it's literally his only fault. I'd still take him over virtually any pitcher in the game.

I'd love to see it improve, but the reality is it's been exposed even worse due to the coverage of it towards the end of the year. So even if it improves, it will be tested more often. I'd rather he focus on the other more important things rather than let it become a distractiion when he is pitching with runners on base.
Lol, okay sheck  
PhiPsi125 : 3/25/2017 10:56 am : link
Is it a problem with throwing to first? He seemed to be fine with that from what I saw. An attention span thing? Whatever it is, I just hate seeing Thor give up a single and it automatically turns into a triple.

But you are right, if it can't be helped then just focus on other stuff.
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