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BBV's Ed Valentine's mock draft with some analysts details

Big Blue '56 : 3/26/2017 12:46 pm
Just for fun..I will provide details after his first pick. Click on the page for other picks' write-ups..Btw, his first two mocks had Bolles at 23

Quote:


Round 1 (23rd) — Ryan Ramczyk, OT, Wisconsin

Off the board: LB Zach Cunningham, LB Haason Reddick, TE David Njoku,

Other players considered: RB Christian McCaffrey, TE O.J. Howard, DE Taco Charlton, DE Derek Barnett, DE Charles Harris, OL Cam Robinson



I could have gone several ways here. There is a group of Giants fans who will pan me for not selecting Alabama tight end O.J. Howard. I know that. I believe, though, that fixing the offensive line is more important that adding a tight end, and getting a guy most think can be an instant starter at a tackle spot was something I wasn’t going to pass up. Also, with the depth of tight ends in this draft I felt confident I could get a good one later on. I would have been really tempted to take Reddick or Cunningham here, but both were already off the board. Bolles, incidentally, was still available.

Ramczyk, oddly, is ranked N0. 23 on our newest prospect Big Board.



Here is some what Chris(?) wrote in his Ramczyk prospect profile:

There is a lot to like about Ryan Ramczyk, though some of it depends on your perspective. Is his injury a problem or does playing through it show off his mental toughness? Does the fact that he only has one year of major college football make him a risk, or does it illustrate his work ethic? Regardless of your feelings on those potential risks, he does enough well already to suggest a player who can step in and contribute from Day 1, and only get better with more experience and coaching.

On the field for Wisconsin, Ramczyk looks like an NFL tackle. He is a brutish run blocker, which has to interest a team that can’t run the ball, and a solid pass protector. He, of course, has issues that need coaching up, but he doesn’t have some of the issues that plague many college tackles coming out.

The question is if he falls to the Giants, will they have the stomach for his potential risks?


Round 2 (55th) — Jordan Willis, DE, Kansas State


Round 3 — Bucky Hodges, TE, Virginia Tech


Round 4 — Samaje Perine, RB, Oklahoma


Round 5 — Jerod Evans, QB, Virginia Tech


Round 6 — Zane Gonzalez, PK, Arizona State


Round 7 — Nate Hairston, CB, Temple





Link - ( New Window )
Oh  
Big Blue '56 : 3/26/2017 12:47 pm : link
and bring on the O.J. Howard fans...😎😎
I'd be lukewarm with that draft  
The_Boss : 3/26/2017 12:51 pm : link
I like the Ramczyk pick but I think Howard being on the board isn't realistic.
I don't follow ncaa k's, so I couldn't tell you if the 6th is a wise spot for a kicker or not. I'd rather go somewhere else than Evans in the 5th. Unless Webb falls into their laps at 55, I don't think I'd be using a pick on a QB in this draft.
There is no way that Howard lasts until 23.  
yatqb : 3/26/2017 12:59 pm : link
So it's a very unrealistic draft. Irregardless, I'd take Howard over RR if he was there, but love the Ramczyk pick otherwise.
RE: There is no way that Howard lasts until 23.  
Big Blue '56 : 3/26/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13407089 yatqb said:
Quote:
So it's a very unrealistic draft. Irregardless, I'd take Howard over RR if he was there, but love the Ramczyk pick otherwise.


I think he effectively acknowledged that (re realism), but nevertheless weighed in with reasons why
Problem with. Ramcyzk  
Samiam : 3/26/2017 1:14 pm : link
I don't think his health status is known at least not publicly. If he's healthy, it's a real possibility. But I've seen Howard mocked way higher than 23. Last week he was the 5th pick. Now it's total guesswork
RE: Problem with. Ramcyzk  
Big Blue '56 : 3/26/2017 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13407101 Samiam said:
Quote:
I don't think his health status is known at least not publicly. If he's healthy, it's a real possibility. But I've seen Howard mocked way higher than 23. Last week he was the 5th pick. Now it's total guesswork


An ungawdly amount of smoke around this time. It will worsen
RE: There is no way that Howard lasts until 23.  
Diver_Down : 3/26/2017 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13407089 yatqb said:
Quote:
So it's a very unrealistic draft. Irregardless, I'd take Howard over RR if he was there, but love the Ramczyk pick otherwise.


Not only is there no way Howard is there at 23, but there is no way that Njoku goes before him.

I hate the Bucky pick. The guy is not a TE, but a slot wr. He was literally laughed at by Mayock and co. when he demonstrated his ability to get in a 3-point stance in the blocking drills at the combine.
Pretty Good Mock  
pa_giant_fan : 3/26/2017 1:24 pm : link
Would be very happy with Ramczyk and Willis, not a fan of Hodges (to many drops). Getting Gonzales in the 6th would be a great pick. Read where he is expected to go no higher than late 4th early 5th.
So you ignore a TE with perhaps once in a decade physical talent  
Bob in Newburgh : 3/26/2017 1:28 pm : link
in order to draft an OT who may have a long-term health problem, may have a short-term health problem making his integration as a 2017 starter unlikely, and has been recommended solely as perhaps the best of a weak o-line class.

In addition, with their knowledge of training camps, it is likely that RR could not beat out Flowers at LT, Fluker at RT in a fair camp where management is not trying to justify logic defying picks.

Adjusting for risk, not at all impressed.
That's an awful mock  
allstarjim : 3/26/2017 1:40 pm : link
Jordan Willis in the 2nd? Why would the Giants make a premium investment in a 3rd DE, who will be signed for 4 years with no 5th year option, when they have both Vernon and JPP signed also for the next 4 years?

And then a roster space waste in drafting a project QB (who will likely never pan out), when they just re-signed Josh Johnson for two more years and added Geno Smith, with Eli under contract for the next 3 seasons? Why on earth would the Giants do that?

And then draft a kicker? Just horrible. Zane Gonzalez isn't even all that.

Basically, I like the first round pick but after that it's one of the worst mock drafts I've ever seen in my entire life.
RE: That's an awful mock  
Big Blue '56 : 3/26/2017 1:45 pm : link
In comment 13407131 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Jordan Willis in the 2nd? Why would the Giants make a premium investment in a 3rd DE, who will be signed for 4 years with no 5th year option, when they have both Vernon and JPP signed also for the next 4 years?

And then a roster space waste in drafting a project QB (who will likely never pan out), when they just re-signed Josh Johnson for two more years and added Geno Smith, with Eli under contract for the next 3 seasons? Why on earth would the Giants do that?

And then draft a kicker? Just horrible. Zane Gonzalez isn't even all that.

Basically, I like the first round pick but after that it's one of the worst mock drafts I've ever seen in my entire life.


Given the countless crap that's been out there the last three or more decades, that's quite the hyperbole..But, hey...
Draft Board  
AndyB : 3/26/2017 1:54 pm : link
Ed Valentine would've done what the Baltimore Colts did in 1975- passed on their highest rated player, Walter Payton, 'cause they needed a guard.

In 1984 the Giants were coming off a 3-12-1 season and had needs everywhere. Everywhere, that is, except outside linebacker. Lawrence Taylor, Byron Hunt and Andy Headon were all 25 or younger. And yet, with the third pick overall they took another outside linebacker, Carl Banks. I don't think they regretted it. Valentine wouldn't have taken him either.

In 2010 the Giants had Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora and Matthias Kiwanuka at defensive end. In the first round that year they took another, Jason Pierre-Paul. They haven't regretted that one either.

Teams that use the draft to "address their needs" will be addressing the same needs year after year, over and over. They never get any better. The Rams have been addressing their need at offensive tackle for years. Alex Barron. Jason Smith. Greg Robinson. All first round picks (Smith and Robinson each went second overall). None of them could play worth anything.

The Giants will take the player with the highest grade, the player with the best chance to succeed in pro football. That's how you get better.
RE: RE: That's an awful mock  
allstarjim : 3/26/2017 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13407136 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13407131 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Jordan Willis in the 2nd? Why would the Giants make a premium investment in a 3rd DE, who will be signed for 4 years with no 5th year option, when they have both Vernon and JPP signed also for the next 4 years?

And then a roster space waste in drafting a project QB (who will likely never pan out), when they just re-signed Josh Johnson for two more years and added Geno Smith, with Eli under contract for the next 3 seasons? Why on earth would the Giants do that?

And then draft a kicker? Just horrible. Zane Gonzalez isn't even all that.

Basically, I like the first round pick but after that it's one of the worst mock drafts I've ever seen in my entire life.



Given the countless crap that's been out there the last three or more decades, that's quite the hyperbole..But, hey...


I thought about it for a second and still said, yup, one of the worst I've ever seen. The picks after the first are that nonsensical.
Regardless, all your views  
Big Blue '56 : 3/26/2017 2:05 pm : link
are helpful as I begin to learn about the players
'fixing the offensive line is more important that adding a tight end'  
Torrag : 3/26/2017 2:20 pm : link
Fail. You draft the best player. Howard should be the pick in that scenario. Period.
RE: RE: RE: That's an awful mock  
Klaatu : 3/26/2017 2:27 pm : link
In comment 13407143 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13407136 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13407131 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Jordan Willis in the 2nd? Why would the Giants make a premium investment in a 3rd DE, who will be signed for 4 years with no 5th year option, when they have both Vernon and JPP signed also for the next 4 years?

And then a roster space waste in drafting a project QB (who will likely never pan out), when they just re-signed Josh Johnson for two more years and added Geno Smith, with Eli under contract for the next 3 seasons? Why on earth would the Giants do that?

And then draft a kicker? Just horrible. Zane Gonzalez isn't even all that.

Basically, I like the first round pick but after that it's one of the worst mock drafts I've ever seen in my entire life.



Given the countless crap that's been out there the last three or more decades, that's quite the hyperbole..But, hey...



I thought about it for a second and still said, yup, one of the worst I've ever seen. The picks after the first are that nonsensical.


I disagree. I like Perine in the 4th and Hairston in the 7th.
I like the Ramczyk pick  
Reb8thVA : 3/26/2017 2:38 pm : link
But I'm probably looking to pick a CB or a receiving TE in rounds two to three. We can probably get a rotational pass rusher or a RB in rounds 4-5.
But yes...  
Reb8thVA : 3/26/2017 2:40 pm : link
You take Howard in the unlikely event he is till there.
Not  
AcidTest : 3/26/2017 3:00 pm : link
enthusiastic about Ramczyk. Barely acceptable. One year of D1 football, and is coming off hip surgery. Why use the #23 pick on a guy like that?

Based on his combine, Willis is likely to be selected before #55, although the Giants did meet with him.

I agree the Giants may take a day three developmental QB like Evans, but I hope they don't. I would prefer they not take a QB this year, but if they do, it should be in the first or second round.
RE: Draft Board  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/26/2017 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13407141 AndyB said:
Quote:
Ed Valentine would've done what the Baltimore Colts did in 1975- passed on their highest rated player, Walter Payton, 'cause they needed a guard.

In 1984 the Giants were coming off a 3-12-1 season and had needs everywhere. Everywhere, that is, except outside linebacker. Lawrence Taylor, Byron Hunt and Andy Headon were all 25 or younger. And yet, with the third pick overall they took another outside linebacker, Carl Banks. I don't think they regretted it. Valentine wouldn't have taken him either.

In 2010 the Giants had Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora and Matthias Kiwanuka at defensive end. In the first round that year they took another, Jason Pierre-Paul. They haven't regretted that one either.

Teams that use the draft to "address their needs" will be addressing the same needs year after year, over and over. They never get any better. The Rams have been addressing their need at offensive tackle for years. Alex Barron. Jason Smith. Greg Robinson. All first round picks (Smith and Robinson each went second overall). None of them could play worth anything.

The Giants will take the player with the highest grade, the player with the best chance to succeed in pro football. That's how you get better.


The Giants marry need w rankings. Almost all teams do. They didn't always draft the highest rated guy. My bet is Gurley was rated higher than Flowers when the pick came up. I'm sure there were a few others too. Just not that much higher. So people whom insist teams always draft BPA are just wrong. Sometimes they just can't pass on a guy like Banks but when you have glaring holes teams often will take a slightly less rated guy. Suppose the best rated guy on their board is a WR this year. The Giants would pass on a LB FS OL or TE whose grade is a bit less for a 4th WR? Not a chance
RE: 'fixing the offensive line is more important that adding a tight end'  
mrvax : 3/26/2017 3:37 pm : link
In comment 13407156 Torrag said:
Quote:
Fail. You draft the best player. Howard should be the pick in that scenario. Period.


I agree. Gotta think about the player most likely to help the offense in 2017 and beyond.
Meh draft  
WillVAB : 3/26/2017 3:46 pm : link
I think they can do better in rounds 2 and 3. A QB pick in the 5th is like flushing that pick down the toilet. Better off using that pick to move up in earlier rounds instead of picking a QB.
RE: RE: Draft Board  
section125 : 3/26/2017 3:51 pm : link
In comment 13407196 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13407141 AndyB said:


Quote:
The Giants would pass on a LB FS OL or TE whose grade is a bit less for a 4th WR? Not a chance


If Williams is there, I think he would be the pick, except if Howard is there.
RE: RE: RE: Draft Board  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/26/2017 4:19 pm : link
In comment 13407217 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13407196 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13407141 AndyB said:


Quote:
The Giants would pass on a LB FS OL or TE whose grade is a bit less for a 4th WR? Not a chance



If Williams is there, I think he would be the pick, except if Howard is there.


Totally disagree. Don't think they want a 4th WR. They don't need him. Heck you can make an argument for a CB or FS or a TE. Williams won't be the pick. It's a weak year for WRs. I think he goes around 15-20
Do we really need another  
mrvax : 3/26/2017 4:37 pm : link
FS drafted high as we have Darian Thompson waiting in the wings?
I like his analysis and I'm fine with that pick  
illmatic : 3/26/2017 4:41 pm : link
but only if Howard is off the board. If him or Njoku are there, I think they have to be the pick. Both players have star potential. I'd actually say it's a realistic pick if he said Howard was gone as well as the other guys.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Draft Board  
section125 : 3/26/2017 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13407226 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13407217 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13407196 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13407141 AndyB said:


Quote:
The Giants would pass on a LB FS OL or TE whose grade is a bit less for a 4th WR? Not a chance



If Williams is there, I think he would be the pick, except if Howard is there.



Totally disagree. Don't think they want a 4th WR. They don't need him. Heck you can make an argument for a CB or FS or a TE. Williams won't be the pick. It's a weak year for WRs. I think he goes around 15-20


I agree he's gone by 23 (Williams), but if he's there and he is the top player on the board, I doubt they pass to take a lesser level player. If he is in the same tier as a CB, DE and maybe a TE (Howard and maybe Njoku) then they will pick one of the others. You take the best player and worry about the rest later.
RE: Do we really need another  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/26/2017 5:03 pm : link
In comment 13407244 mrvax said:
Quote:
FS drafted high as we have Darian Thompson waiting in the wings?


Yes, if you grade that FS well enough. Thompson had an injury label in the draft. He hasn't proven anything.
RE: RE: Do we really need another  
Klaatu : 3/26/2017 5:14 pm : link
In comment 13407260 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13407244 mrvax said:


Quote:


FS drafted high as we have Darian Thompson waiting in the wings?



Yes, if you grade that FS well enough. Thompson had an injury label in the draft. He hasn't proven anything.


He had an injury label in the draft? As I recall, he missed two games as a Senior (concussion). That was it.
OT tend to rise  
Vanzetti : 3/26/2017 5:44 pm : link
Very good chance Ramzyck is gone by 23. Ditto for Bolles.

Especially with the insane prices being paid for mediocre LTs like REiff and Okung.
'the insane prices being paid for mediocre LTs'...  
Torrag : 3/26/2017 6:20 pm : link
Good point and yet another reason we could make the mistake of overdrafting these guys.
Thanks for giving us something to read Big Blue 56  
GMen23 : 3/26/2017 7:14 pm : link
At least the boys are playing nice today, attacking Valentine, not the Poster.
I wouldn't hate Ramcyk in RD 1, if we like his medical. Or any OL, including Lamp, guard or not.
I agree 100%, you have to go the superior talent OJ, in this scenario.
But as much as I want to bolster early the worse unit on the team, along with Howard, there is no way I'm passing on McCaffrey for Ramcyck either. I loved the Perkins pick in the 5th rd. last year. However, Ed's son, takes our offense to a totally different level.
Howard can block.  
Giant John : 3/26/2017 7:19 pm : link
He would help with blocking. Can you imagine a TE that can catch, is so fast and can block? I'd take him in a heartbeat. Then go oline in second. CB then RB. That is my thought.
Perine and Gonzales  
jeff57 : 3/26/2017 8:11 pm : link
Probably won't last that long.
RE: Draft Board  
Rafflee : 3/26/2017 8:35 pm : link
In comment 13407141 AndyB said:
Quote:


In 1984 the Giants were coming off a 3-12-1 season and had needs everywhere. Everywhere, that is, except outside linebacker. Lawrence Taylor, Byron Hunt and Andy Headon were all 25 or younger. And yet, with the third pick overall they took another outside linebacker, Carl Banks. I don't think they regretted it. Valentine wouldn't have taken him either.

In 2010 the Giants had Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora and Matthias Kiwanuka at defensive end. In the first round that year they took another, Jason Pierre-Paul. They haven't regretted that one either.


A 3-11 team at Pick #3 Drafts the best player available...PERIOD---with the exception of a QB, when they don't need a QB. Pick #3 was Banks. Pick #15, years later, was JPP--- and if a Freak Pass Rusher drops to 23, He will be a Giant!!!!...GUARANTEED!!!!!....otherwise, I believe a TE or a DT will carry a heavy weighting.

An 11 win team at 23 is likely to be swayed by NEED--- there is some likelihood that a #23 Left tackle will be more Project than Instant Impact.



I'd love to see Hodges picked there as a big, outside WR.  
Victor in CT : 3/27/2017 10:14 am : link
As Sy56 pointed out, he is not a TE, so why force him to be one. He could be a HUGE outside target, great compliment to Beckham and Shepard
I'm good with this draft  
giantgiantfan : 3/27/2017 1:45 pm : link
not sure about the QB and PK picks. But the first 4 picks are good. At the back hal, we have needs and those are late, so I'm okay with it. The QB pick would not necessitate us caring 3 QBs IMO as Evans would likely be fine on the PS. The kicker I just don't believe in though.
While these mocks are fun  
oldog : 3/28/2017 11:04 am : link
and can be thought provoking, it is best to think of them in the same vein as any decision. When you are leaving the house (or whatever), and your wife, (or significant other, or whatever), says "better take your umbrella", you may or may not take it. You would perhaps consider the weather forecast, the sky, the time of year, your projected time outdoors, and even the possibility of forgetting the umbrella. You might have a fairly weatherproof overcoat. The nature of a draft is even more variable, since other teams will pick before you. If you have first pick, planning is easier, because the number of variables is reduced, but as you approach 23, the choices available expand, and the contingencies also expand. Planning becomes more and more complex. Imagine that there will be only a dozen umbrellas, and 22 others will be departing before you, all with access to them. You may not have any chance for the umbrellas at all, or those leaving earlier may largely take their chances, leaving you lots of choice. Or, if choice is limited, you may just switch to your most water repellant overcoat. As we all know, an umbrella can catch a gust of wind and become useless in an instant. In the draft, the range of needs is much broader than umbrella, overcoat, or why bother, and the choices are more numerous, the future harder to predict. The choices to be made are not as predictable as the umbrella problem, because the choices to be made are so dependent on unpredictable prior choices.

This year the Giants have greatly reduced the number of their immediate needs, (they could struggle through hoping their oline will mature) so that they are much less dependent on what other teams do. In essence they have already procured both overcoat and umbrella. So it is time to stop worrying about the present weather.

Thus, just ignore present needs, and plan for the long term health and potential of the team, pick younger, tougher, more durable, prospects with upside, even if they look somewhat raw now. (eg JPP). Even a QB, if the opportunity arises. Put simply, take the best player available.
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