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NFT: Attorney's/Accountants - academic advice sought...

Dan in the Springs : 3/27/2017 1:58 pm
So my son is in a Master's program at a top accounting school and was told that if he wanted to he could add a JD in for an additional 2 years. Money is not a concern at this time. The question is whether he would benefit from the JD in his career or not.

As his father, I encouraged him to get the JD as it can only open opportunities, even unforeseen ones. He is leaning that way. However most of the people in his MAC program are advising that the JD is not necessary at all. I told him that I would agree if he was 100% certain that he knew what type of work he wanted (audit, etc.), but where he still hasn't decided that part and cannot foresee his future interests/desires, now is the time to get that JD.

I'm looking to help him consider opportunities that might be available to him as a result of having both the J.D. and the MAC. I'm turning to BBI for some insight into those opportunities.

He is a reader on BBI but I don't think he ever posts here yet. There is no greater Giants fan at his age. Give him your best advice here. Thanks in advance!
My 2 cents  
Ross : 3/27/2017 2:29 pm : link
Both my wife and I are CPA's and neither have a JD. It really depends on what path he wants to go down that should decide if he gets the JD or not.

I went CPA route, then financial services and I've been a CFO and COO in asset management for 20 years.

My wife also the CPA route, then Corporate accounting and she is now a CFO of a public company.

My buddy from school got his JD and CPA and is now a tax attorney in a mid sized law firm.

All three of us have had success in our careers, yet all took different paths. I'm sure it's clear as mud for you.
A lot of things to consider  
Colossus of Rhodes : 3/27/2017 2:33 pm : link
and I only know a handful of them. But I used to teach people in Korea's National Tax Service, specifically the people who taxed multi-nationals. Our text was OECD Transfer Pricing Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises and Tax Administrations.

The students were all accountants and they all talked about how complicated the laws were when it came to transfer pricing. I suspect a law degree would go a long way in that field as long as you also knew the accounting side.
Does he have any idea what he wants to do?  
pjcas18 : 3/27/2017 2:34 pm : link
I have an accounting degree and never spent a day in accounting and I couldn't imagine a day spent in any legal capacity either.

I wouldn't spend two more years in college simply to maybe open doors I don't know if I even want to walk through.

but some people love school, so if your son does and doesn't have any great interest or need in starting his career ASAP then why not.

My college roommate has an accounting degree, an MBA, and a JD and is a partner in a small law firm and does real estate closings all day, in between playing golf.

RE: My 2 cents  
Brown Recluse : 3/27/2017 2:57 pm : link
In comment 13408097 Ross said:
Quote:
Both my wife and I are CPA's and neither have a JD. It really depends on what path he wants to go down that should decide if he gets the JD or not.

I went CPA route, then financial services and I've been a CFO and COO in asset management for 20 years.

My wife also the CPA route, then Corporate accounting and she is now a CFO of a public company.

My buddy from school got his JD and CPA and is now a tax attorney in a mid sized law firm.

All three of us have had success in our careers, yet all took different paths. I'm sure it's clear as mud for you.


Respect to both you and your wife my friend. That CPA exam is no joke.
Knowing what he wants to do...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/27/2017 3:11 pm : link
is the thing that would make this an easier decision. Since he's still a bit unclear on that I've encouraged him to the JD. He's interviewing with the big 5 and a few other firms this week for next year's internships (this year he's doing work for Sandia Nat'l Labs in ABQ). He's got a PT work offer from this year's internship through next year and likely beyond. He'll look at the offers he gets to determine what to do next, but it's less about the money and more about getting to see different aspects of accounting and decide what he wants to do overall.

I say that money isn't really an issue because he's able to work on the side at decent pay and his expenses are very low. Tuition, for example, isn't a factor at all for him. Also his wife is graduating in a month and has offers already out there for her as well.

I know he mentioned that he thought forensic accounting was very interesting, but he really doesn't have enough to compare it with. I have a friend who is a cartel hunter for the DEA and loves it - he says financial transactions are the key to his job. I thought a law degree combined with the accounting background could open some interesting options in law enforcement.

He kind of needs to decide soon because they will be working his schedule out if he chooses the JD.

I know he'd prefer to be done, but he understands that it's easier to get his education done now than any other point in his life.

Thanks everyone for your advice and thoughts. If any others out there want to share, please do so.
Keep that question academic  
WideRight : 3/27/2017 3:12 pm : link
If he's already developing skills and motivation, then the JD is not necessary and may not be that valuable.

However that's not the question. Whether he wants to go the law school or not - especially since $ isn't the issue - should be based on what he wants to do now. i.e. he's not a kid who should worry about his future, he would well served by going where ever his interests take him. He's lucky
RE: Keep that question academic  
Dan in the Springs : 3/27/2017 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13408181 WideRight said:
Quote:
If he's already developing skills and motivation, then the JD is not necessary and may not be that valuable.

However that's not the question. Whether he wants to go the law school or not - especially since $ isn't the issue - should be based on what he wants to do now. i.e. he's not a kid who should worry about his future, he would well served by going where ever his interests take him. He's lucky


Some luck combined with preparation from his hard work, dedication and sacrifice.

To be honest he's been thinking accounting since H.S., but not for a specific career, just knowing it was a good thing to study to open many doors. He never thought about law. When he learned about the opportunity to add the JD in two years is when he started wondering about it. I think he's not 100% decided on what he wants to do, so we're looking for ideas of what he could do if he got the law degree to go with the MAC.
The FBI would love him with...  
MOOPS : 3/27/2017 3:22 pm : link
the law degree and the advanced accounting degree.
I'm not an accountant but I do have a law degree  
jcp56 : 3/27/2017 3:32 pm : link
If he wants to work for an accounting firm, I doubt that a JD would help much. If he wants to do Tax or Corporate Law (areas filled with accounting majors), obviously a JD is great. (And an LLM might be good for Tax law.)

A JD will get you exposed to people at higher levels of corporations. I've known engineers that practiced patent law, and transitioned in house to product counsel, corporate acquisitions, etc. On the other hand, I know one guy with top engineering and law credentials (think Princeton, Stanford, Harvard) who is now a realtor.
RE: I'm not an accountant but I do have a law degree  
Dan in the Springs : 3/27/2017 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13408241 jcp56 said:
Quote:
If he wants to work for an accounting firm, I doubt that a JD would help much. If he wants to do Tax or Corporate Law (areas filled with accounting majors), obviously a JD is great. (And an LLM might be good for Tax law.)

A JD will get you exposed to people at higher levels of corporations. I've known engineers that practiced patent law, and transitioned in house to product counsel, corporate acquisitions, etc. On the other hand, I know one guy with top engineering and law credentials (think Princeton, Stanford, Harvard) who is now a realtor.


Thanks - I shared the same thought about the JD opening doors at high levels in corporations. Your other hand illustrates that you have to earn those jobs still - the degree will not guarantee anything.
RE: The FBI would love him with...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/27/2017 5:01 pm : link
In comment 13408213 MOOPS said:
Quote:
the law degree and the advanced accounting degree.


That's what I was thinking as well. Could be a very interesting career. Might not pay as well.

My friend in the DEA is living outside the U.S. at present, has free housing, transportation and security, and earns >$200K international (tax advantaged). Pretty good take home. On the other hand, it takes a while to build that salary up, and one can always wonder how much more could be made in private practice.
I don't know anything about Tax Law other than it's a very, very, very  
Anakim : 3/27/2017 5:40 pm : link
lucrative field
Knowing a few FBI agents  
pjcas18 : 3/27/2017 5:50 pm : link
and I think there's even one who posts on here, you mentioned your son is married, not sure if he's planning on a family, but the FBI does not pay well for new hires (look at the OPM schedule), and you don't always get to pick where you go to work.

If that's cool with your son, and it may be, then it could be a desirable location. I know there is a lot of glamour to some young men and women with the FBI, CIA, etc. Most of the field is not glamorous.

I did well in accounting in high school and also in college as a business major, so when it came time to pick a major as a slacker college student I picked accounting as the path of least resistance.

I could never imagine a career in accounting. and Tax accounting is even worse. much much worse.

I had an internship my senior year in college with a local CPA firm - very hard to get, they stuck me in a conference room with boxes of tax returns and said "check these for accuracy"

holy shit, it was one of those days where the clock went backwards. I made it through maybe 45 minutes, got up and walked out. Never spent another minute in accounting in my life. other than using Turbo Tax for my taxes if you count that as accounting.


Forensic accounting for  
ChicagoMarty : 3/27/2017 6:07 pm : link
Federal Law Enforcement can be engrossing but not particularly lucrative.

I know because that is what I did. Never regretted a minute of it.

I would note that now would be the best time to get any advanced degrees before the babies start coming.

Once parenthood arrives free time disappears.

Having a JD on your resume can't hurt

I knew a guy a couple of years ago at he depth of the financial crisis who obtained a law degree from the University of Chicago and ended up working for DEA as a research analyst because that was all that was open to him. He enjoyed the work but was grossly overqualified. He ended up obtaining a job as Chief Counsel for ATF in one of their large District offices.

He could move on from their without difficulty.

Good luck with the choices that are made

No regrets is one life philosophy to go with
If he will work to get excellent grades yes  
SomeFan : 3/27/2017 6:16 pm : link
if he is ready to work and will get less than A- type grades, then NFW.
And I don't care what he wants to do  
SomeFan : 3/27/2017 6:18 pm : link
with excellent grades, the JD is only a positive. With mediocre grades (ie, below an A-), waste of money and time.
Thanks all...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/27/2017 6:24 pm : link
lots of good advice here.

He's a great student who has earned only good grades. I know he will take his path seriously from an academic standpoint.

Keep it coming if you have advice please...
No idea  
trueblueinpw : 3/27/2017 6:44 pm : link
But when I was considering law school every lawyer in the firm (which was a top 50 global firm) where I worked told me to go to business school instead. Two years vs. three and they all said the action was in investment banking not law and that law, even "Big Law", was mostly transactional and comoditized. They also told me that unless I went to a top ten school the payoff would never be there. My lsats wouldn't get me into a top school so I punted on the JD. Not sure any of this is germane to your son's situation though as he's young and doesn't have to foot the bill. A two year JD so early in life, especially if he doesn't have to borrow to get it would a great arrow to have in proverbial career quiver. Congrats to you and Mrs in the Springs, seems like you raised a good one.
RE: No idea  
Dan in the Springs : 3/27/2017 8:12 pm : link
In comment 13408477 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
But when I was considering law school every lawyer in the firm (which was a top 50 global firm) where I worked told me to go to business school instead. Two years vs. three and they all said the action was in investment banking not law and that law, even "Big Law", was mostly transactional and comoditized. They also told me that unless I went to a top ten school the payoff would never be there. My lsats wouldn't get me into a top school so I punted on the JD. Not sure any of this is germane to your son's situation though as he's young and doesn't have to foot the bill. A two year JD so early in life, especially if he doesn't have to borrow to get it would a great arrow to have in proverbial career quiver. Congrats to you and Mrs in the Springs, seems like you raised a good one.


Thanks. I'm equally proud of my other kids who have chosen different paths (police officer, teaching).

He hasn't had to borrow because he's paid his own way between scholarships and summer jobs. I believe that's the best way for college to be funded. When he told me that he was considering the JD I offered to help financially if he needs it but he's already learned how to pay his own way.

Thanks again...
personally  
Luis in NJ : 3/27/2017 9:07 pm : link
the accounting degree is not worth a ton paired with a JD imo unless the accounting part has been put into practice. I would advise to work Big 4 for a couple of years, pass the CPA exam, then decide about pursuing a JD. Most folks I have seen with both CPA and JD are in corporate tax or estate planning and I think the vast majority spent time practicing accounting. Textbook knowledge is great and all but its not reality. Not that i am an expert on current hiring trends as I am long time out of school myself, but saying this as a CPA myself with 11 years in public and now nearly 15 in industry.
RE: personally  
Dan in the Springs : 3/28/2017 12:43 am : link
In comment 13408611 Luis in NJ said:
Quote:
the accounting degree is not worth a ton paired with a JD imo unless the accounting part has been put into practice. I would advise to work Big 4 for a couple of years, pass the CPA exam, then decide about pursuing a JD. Most folks I have seen with both CPA and JD are in corporate tax or estate planning and I think the vast majority spent time practicing accounting. Textbook knowledge is great and all but its not reality. Not that i am an expert on current hiring trends as I am long time out of school myself, but saying this as a CPA myself with 11 years in public and now nearly 15 in industry.


Thanks, good to read and gives a lot to think about.
RE: No idea  
SomeFan : 3/28/2017 8:59 am : link
In comment 13408477 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
But when I was considering law school every lawyer in the firm (which was a top 50 global firm) where I worked told me to go to business school instead. Two years vs. three and they all said the action was in investment banking not law and that law, even "Big Law", was mostly transactional and comoditized. They also told me that unless I went to a top ten school the payoff would never be there. My lsats wouldn't get me into a top school so I punted on the JD. Not sure any of this is germane to your son's situation though as he's young and doesn't have to foot the bill. A two year JD so early in life, especially if he doesn't have to borrow to get it would a great arrow to have in proverbial career quiver. Congrats to you and Mrs in the Springs, seems like you raised a good one.


Agree with this. Myobservations are that lawyers at the big national firms are mostly miserable and many wish they took a different road.
...  
christian : 3/28/2017 10:45 am : link
The wealthiest, happy, people I know are in estate planning at big banks. It's a niche field in some respects. It's certainly corporate, financial etc., but customer focused too.

RE: ...  
Anakim : 3/28/2017 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13408993 christian said:
Quote:
The wealthiest, happy, people I know are in estate planning at big banks. It's a niche field in some respects. It's certainly corporate, financial etc., but customer focused too.


Wealthiest? Maybe. Happiest? That I'm not sure about because trusts and estates is an INCREDIBLY dry field.
RE: RE: ...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/28/2017 3:44 pm : link
In comment 13409159 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13408993 christian said:


Quote:


The wealthiest, happy, people I know are in estate planning at big banks. It's a niche field in some respects. It's certainly corporate, financial etc., but customer focused too.




Wealthiest? Maybe. Happiest? That I'm not sure about because trusts and estates is an INCREDIBLY dry field.


Disagree - I worked for the nations largest bank (at the time) in the private bank. Being a personal wealth manager of clients with a minimum of $25MM in assets with the bank means spending your days hanging out on the ski slopes and lodge all winter long, and poolside at the club during the summer. At least in my position. I wasn't the estate planner but they had equal access to the finest luxuries in life paid for by the bank.

I'm not a skier, but the guy who I replaced spent >80% of his time on the slopes. He was one happy guy.
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