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4.41-4.44 times for D'Onta Foreman at the Texas pro day

gidiefor : Mod : 3/28/2017 11:47 am
today as per @NLFDraftScout
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he doesn't make a lot of contact  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/28/2017 12:38 pm : link
in his highlight tapes -- seems to outrun the hole, and bounces outside a lot. I really don't like the way he holds the ball. He does have game speed but I don't spend a 2nd round pick on him -- maybe a 3rd, depending on what else is available, but I'd definitely do a fourth round flyer on him - he needs woik
Here's  
AcidTest : 3/28/2017 12:40 pm : link
what I said about him on an earlier thread:

Physical power back with quick feet, and good agility. Unbelievable workload, including 50+ carries against Kansas last year. Won't run away from NFL defenders IMO. Six or seven fumbles last year, but had an incredibly high number of carries, and is constantly being pummeled. Willing in pass protection, but slow to pick up stunts and blitzes. That could be a real problem, especially with Eli being immobile. Lost weight before the combine, but was found to have a small stress fracture in one of his feet. Here is something about his workload:

"However heavy he actually was, it worked. As a junior this past season, Foreman carried the ball 323 times for 2,028 yards and seven touchdowns. His lowest output of the season was a 24-carry, 124-yard effort in a loss at Kansas State, one of just three games in which he failed to score a touchdown. Foreman had a pair of 250-yard games (Baylor and Kansas) and a ridiculous 341 yards at Texas Tech."

Assuming he checks out medically, I'd be OK with him in the third.
Watch the tape.. Cook is the real deal  
est1986 : 3/28/2017 12:46 pm : link
Im all on board for Cook or Mccaffrey at 23. Fuck Fournette and Foreman. Cook is the real deal, i want him in Blue, Bad! Mccaffrey would be a nice consolation prize.
From everything I've seen of his game...  
Giants_West : 3/28/2017 12:47 pm : link
He has zero burst. I think he has Dayne/Andre Williams written all over him. He is an 2-3 ypc guy behind our offensive line as it currently is. Too slow to the line of scrimmage, doesn't appear to show great vision and cutting ability in tight spaces. dont see him being particularly effective in short yardage. This guy does nothin for me. If it were me(which it isn't) I'd pass.
Thanks, guys  
Big Blue '56 : 3/28/2017 12:48 pm : link
.
RE: Watch the tape.. Cook is the real deal  
adamg : 3/28/2017 12:49 pm : link
In comment 13409236 est1986 said:
Quote:
Im all on board for Cook or Mccaffrey at 23. Fuck Fournette and Foreman. Cook is the real deal, i want him in Blue, Bad! Mccaffrey would be a nice consolation prize.


McCaffrey would be the first RB I'd take for the Giants (@23).

Foreman in the third wouldn't be bad though.
I have concerns that he's Ron Dayne 2.0  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/28/2017 12:55 pm : link
Maybe Texas' OL isn't very good, but I didn't see him run through a hole that wasn't at least 6 feet wide. Some of that is due to the fact that YouTube highlight videos don't often show the plays where a RB gets skinny in a hurry and squeezes 3-4 yards where there should have been 0. Those are the highlights I want to see.
I disagree with many comments here  
PatersonPlank : 3/28/2017 12:57 pm : link
The guy has an excellent burst for a big guy. Also I've seen it take 3 or 4 guys to bring him down, remember they ran him up the guy a lot. Below is video of highlights, granted handpicked by someone, but it does show bust, speed, and power.

If he's there in the 3rd I think he is a steal. Maybe even in the second too.
Foreman Highlights - ( New Window )
RE: I disagree with many comments here  
adamg : 3/28/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13409265 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
The guy has an excellent burst for a big guy. Also I've seen it take 3 or 4 guys to bring him down, remember they ran him up the guy a lot. Below is video of highlights, granted handpicked by someone, but it does show bust, speed, and power.

If he's there in the 3rd I think he is a steal. Maybe even in the second too. Foreman Highlights - ( New Window )


I think Perine is a better value in the 2nd, just because you don't have to coach him up. To me, Foreman is a higher ceiling lower floor guy compared to Perine, and in the earlier rounds, as a Giants fan, I'm snakebit over those types of backs.

I like him in the third though. I think he might go early third now that he ran essentially a 4.5, which is the same as those first round backs.
I was under the impression Perine really hurt himself at the combine.  
Brown Recluse : 3/28/2017 1:03 pm : link
Other than this bench press, I don't believe he put up very good numbers.
Some scouting reports on Foreman  
GiantJake : 3/28/2017 1:05 pm : link
say he needs a lot of work in pass protection. That means he needs a lot of work before he plays any significant role in McAdoo's offense.
RE: Watch the tape.. Cook is the real deal  
mrvax : 3/28/2017 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13409236 est1986 said:
Quote:
Im all on board for Cook or Mccaffrey at 23. Fuck Fournette and Foreman. Cook is the real deal, i want him in Blue, Bad! Mccaffrey would be a nice consolation prize.


Isn't Cook a hardened punk criminal who actually brought a gun to school and discharged it? Another poster listed all the charges against this asshole the other day. No thank you.
Against the same competition, Foreman had 1,000 more yards  
PatersonPlank : 3/28/2017 1:07 pm : link
and rushed for almost 1 yd more per carry than Perine. I was surprised, and expected with the big difference in workload Perine would be higher in yards per carry. After all Perine split time with Mixon so he should have been fresher. Foreman was a workhorse with 323 carries.
Pro Days are a joke, my friends, agents set  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 3/28/2017 1:08 pm : link
these up perfectly for the player focusing only on what they do well. Private workouts, set up by the club, focus on what the player does NOT do well. Thus, private workouts are important...Pro days are useless.
RE: Watch the tape.. Cook is the real deal  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/28/2017 1:10 pm : link
In comment 13409236 est1986 said:
Quote:
Im all on board for Cook or Mccaffrey at 23. Fuck Fournette and Foreman. Cook is the real deal, i want him in Blue, Bad! Mccaffrey would be a nice consolation prize.


Cook id definitely the more talented back if it's between him and Foreman -- only real knock on Cook is ball security
RE: I was under the impression Perine really hurt himself at the combine.  
adamg : 3/28/2017 1:10 pm : link
In comment 13409278 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
Other than this bench press, I don't believe he put up very good numbers.


None of the RBs really wowed from my memory other than McCaffrey (his 40 was best at 4.48). Cook disappointed most at the combine from what I remember.

But, Perine is in some ways the perfect fit for the Giants. He does all the little things which would make him a plug and play RB. He blocks and catches. The two things missing from Foreman's game. Plus he's got the size, which we're lacking in the run game.

Foreman seems like a more explosive runner. But, he's definitely more raw.
Doesn't Foreman  
lugnut : 3/28/2017 1:15 pm : link
Have a ton of mileage already? Like LOADS of carries per game? Sounds like bell cow, but it's mileage, wear and tear, too.
RE: RE: I was under the impression Perine really hurt himself at the combine.  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/28/2017 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13409296 adamg said:
Quote:

But, Perine is in some ways the perfect fit for the Giants. He does all the little things which would make him a plug and play RB. He blocks and catches. The two things missing from Foreman's game. Plus he's got the size, which we're lacking in the run game.

Foreman seems like a more explosive runner. But, he's definitely more raw.


I too like Perine -- but size wise he's thick and powerful, short and compact -- not sure what you mean by size
RE: RE: RE: I was under the impression Perine really hurt himself at the combine.  
adamg : 3/28/2017 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13409320 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13409296 adamg said:


Quote:



But, Perine is in some ways the perfect fit for the Giants. He does all the little things which would make him a plug and play RB. He blocks and catches. The two things missing from Foreman's game. Plus he's got the size, which we're lacking in the run game.

Foreman seems like a more explosive runner. But, he's definitely more raw.



I too like Perine -- but size wise he's thick and powerful, short and compact -- not sure what you mean by size


He's a big back. 5'11'' 235. Would round out the unit with Vereen and Perkins, no pun intended.
. . . .  
jeff57 : 3/28/2017 1:22 pm : link
Quote:
Alarming ball security issues this season with seven fumbles and six lost. Poor mechanics in pass protection. Doesn't square assignments defaulting to lazy shoulder blocks.

Link - ( New Window )
I live in austin...  
KerrysFlask : 3/28/2017 1:26 pm : link
...And have seen pretty much every Texas game. I stick to my earlier evaluation and would take him in the late 2nd. He's tough to bring down and his small fumbling issue can be attributed to a hand injury revealed after the season. He also says he can catch - working out with his WR twin brother, although he was pretty much never asked to do so at UT.
I don't see the Ron Dayne/Andre Williams comparisons. He'll be more successful.
RE: . . . .  
PatersonPlank : 3/28/2017 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13409326 jeff57 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Alarming ball security issues this season with seven fumbles and six lost. Poor mechanics in pass protection. Doesn't square assignments defaulting to lazy shoulder blocks.

Link - ( New Window )


Ha ha, yes those are the written issues. Now lets list the strengths. Plus he was the Doak Walker winner. I'm also not sure 6 lost fumbles is bad when you have 323 carries plus some receptions.

STRENGTHS Outstanding athleticism for a big runner. Smooth lateral movement. Has feet and agility for slide and go cuts from one gap to the next without a noticeable gear down. Finesses run lanes with subtle shifts and turns. Measured stride length optimizes balance. Swivels hips to swerve away from second level linebackers. Can hurdle open field tacklers who try and go low. Play speed is adequate. Has size and balance to pinball from one tackler to the next if he's not wrapped up. Jars linebackers and safeties at impact with his size alone. North-south runner. Rarely caught taking a loss due to ill-advised "bounce" outside. Proved he could shoulder heavy workload while cranking out consistent production week after week. Had tremendous conversion rate when short yardage was needed
I like Perine also  
jeff57 : 3/28/2017 1:30 pm : link
And should be able to get him at 87, freeing up the 55th pick for an OL or TE.
Some game clips for those looking to explore  
adamg : 3/28/2017 1:33 pm : link
He is an exciting player who is tough to bring down.

Baylor 2016

Oklahoma 2016

Notre Dame 2016

TCU 2016
RE: Some game clips for those looking to explore  
PatersonPlank : 3/28/2017 1:46 pm : link
In comment 13409350 adamg said:
Quote:
He is an exciting player who is tough to bring down.

Baylor 2016

Oklahoma 2016

Notre Dame 2016

TCU 2016


I watched the Baylor and ND ones. I counted just once when he was hit and brought right down. All the others, and he was getting nailed right away by Baylor, he was rumbling forward for 4 yards or so even after being hit a few times. Obviously when there was more of an opening he was gone.
If NYG is going after a RB in rounds 3-5  
Sy'56 : 3/28/2017 3:58 pm : link
Think they are looking at

Foreman - Texas
Hunt - Toledo
Perine - Oklahoma
Conner - Pittsburgh
Smith - Michigan
When U watched game tape,  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 3/28/2017 4:33 pm : link
Foreman goes down the instant someone hits him in the legs. He has no wiggle, takes five yards beyond LOS to get to full speed, is not a battering ram. I am not a pro scout, but i was not impressed. Much prefer mid-round candidates like Kareem Hunt or Joe Mixon or James Conner.
RE: If NYG is going after a RB in rounds 3-5  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/28/2017 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13409602 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
Think they are looking at

Foreman - Texas
Hunt - Toledo
Perine - Oklahoma
Conner - Pittsburgh
Smith - Michigan


Tell you what Sy. Of those 5. I like Smith and Perine the best. Those two are true power backs. I give a slight edge to smith who seems to play more consistently bulling through the line, but Perine is really built like a tank
Imo the Giants need a RB similar to Bradshaw..  
prdave73 : 3/28/2017 4:58 pm : link
After Fournette, Cook, and McCaffrey, I like these RB's in the later Rds.

Alvin Kamara
Aaron Jones
Joe William
Stanley Boom Williams
Joe Mixon
'I think Perine is a better value in the 2nd'...  
Torrag : 3/28/2017 11:08 pm : link
...really? not sure what you're seeing to take him that high. Unlike Foreman who just validated what you see on tape Perine ran much slower and looks slower in game action as well imo. His 3-cone was also extremely poor which is a concern. If there is any workout stat that has a correlation to the Giants actual draft picks it is the 3-cone.

RE: 'I think Perine is a better value in the 2nd'...  
adamg : 3/28/2017 11:20 pm : link
In comment 13410099 Torrag said:
Quote:
...really? not sure what you're seeing to take him that high. Unlike Foreman who just validated what you see on tape Perine ran much slower and looks slower in game action as well imo. His 3-cone was also extremely poor which is a concern. If there is any workout stat that has a correlation to the Giants actual draft picks it is the 3-cone.


That was in response to someone saying they want Foreman in the second. Also, I said Foreman is a better runner, nevertheless Perine is solid all around. He's more pro ready than Foreman. So, he contribute right away, which I think is important for a second round RB. That said, I'm not a fan of drafting Perine. I agree with your take that his rushing ability leaves something to be desired. I'd rather take Foreman in the 3rd.

But, if they felt they had to draft someone in the second, I wouldn't want someone like Foreman who might not be able to get serious play until year 2 because he still needs a bit of coaching up.
I disagree  
Torrag : 3/28/2017 11:24 pm : link
The philosophy of the draft shouldn't be too take the guy that is marginally better now imo. You draft the player that your coaches will get the most out of. The draft is about the future, not the now...within reason. Look at the David Wilson pick. He had pass protection issues. But they saw a dynamic runner and a hard worker and felt they could coach him up. He wasn't a finished product. If he hadn't gotten hurt I still believe he may have become a special back for us.
Very few prospects enter the league  
Torrag : 3/28/2017 11:26 pm : link
They're young. They need some time and support to reach their potential.
should have read^^^^^  
Torrag : 3/28/2017 11:27 pm : link
Very few prospects enter the league without warts.
RE: I disagree  
adamg : 3/28/2017 11:37 pm : link
In comment 13410119 Torrag said:
Quote:
The philosophy of the draft shouldn't be too take the guy that is marginally better now imo. You draft the player that your coaches will get the most out of. The draft is about the future, not the now...within reason. Look at the David Wilson pick. He had pass protection issues. But they saw a dynamic runner and a hard worker and felt they could coach him up. He wasn't a finished product. If he hadn't gotten hurt I still believe he may have become a special back for us.


I don't think it's marginal when you're talking about the ability to be a three down back. I agree Foreman could turn into a huge weapon and Perine likely doesn't have that ceiling. But, Foreman's floor if he doesn't develop 3 down ability is much lower than Perine's is right now.

I'd rather wait out the RB pick if McCaffrey doesn't fall to us in 1. There are guys who can be starters or have better value at other spots in the 2nd and 3rd (at CB or OL, e.g.). Foreman is the exception for me, because he has that potential, and I do think he will become well-rounded. I don't know whether we're actually disagreeing.

Are you saying you'd take Foreman in the 2nd?
'I don't think it's marginal'...  
Torrag : 3/28/2017 11:47 pm : link
Again not sure what you're watching. It's absolutely marginal. Why can't Foreman with his AA and size/speed ratio 'learn' to pick up a blitz? He's flashed natural hands in limited opportunities as a receiver. All Giants fans have seen a RB learn to protect the ball better during Barber's career.

Again most players that come out have some things they need to work on. Generally a team will take the better long term prospect unless there is a glaring difference. There is no such disparity between these two prospects. Most rankings have them fairly close and that was before Foreman impressed at his Pro Day while Perine showed some weaknesses. So if you take a little time to develop Foreman you should have the superior player.
In fact at this point I'll be mildly surprised...  
Torrag : 3/28/2017 11:49 pm : link
...if Foreman isn't drafted first. He should be.
A quick perusal of four mainstream draft sites  
Torrag : 3/28/2017 11:55 pm : link
GBN, Huddle, CBS and Walter's...Foreman rated ahead of Perine on 3 and nipping at his heels in the other. Not conclusive but indicative...
RE: 'I don't think it's marginal'...  
adamg : 3/29/2017 1:26 am : link
In comment 13410145 Torrag said:
Quote:
Again not sure what you're watching. It's absolutely marginal. Why can't Foreman with his AA and size/speed ratio 'learn' to pick up a blitz? He's flashed natural hands in limited opportunities as a receiver. All Giants fans have seen a RB learn to protect the ball better during Barber's career.

Again most players that come out have some things they need to work on. Generally a team will take the better long term prospect unless there is a glaring difference. There is no such disparity between these two prospects. Most rankings have them fairly close and that was before Foreman impressed at his Pro Day while Perine showed some weaknesses. So if you take a little time to develop Foreman you should have the superior player.


I think you're being pedantic here. I didn't say Foreman couldn't ever pass pro. I said he needs more coaching up than Perine. I'm not sure how that's controversial.
'I said he needs more coaching up than Perine'...  
Torrag : 3/29/2017 7:51 am : link
You implied it wasn't close between the two players. Not marginal right? That's your position I take issue with. Not that it's a big deal but you're wrong. I wouldn't touch Perine in the 2nd Round but I'd consider Foreman there. He is the higher ceiling player. I wouldn't pull the trigger until the 3rd though to be honest. Perine is a 4th Rounder for me.
RE: 'I said he needs more coaching up than Perine'...  
adamg : 3/29/2017 5:19 pm : link
In comment 13410236 Torrag said:
Quote:
You implied it wasn't close between the two players. Not marginal right? That's your position I take issue with. Not that it's a big deal but you're wrong. I wouldn't touch Perine in the 2nd Round but I'd consider Foreman there. He is the higher ceiling player. I wouldn't pull the trigger until the 3rd though to be honest. Perine is a 4th Rounder for me.


So Perine isn't the more refined player? You're definitely just being pedantic. I haven't disagreed with anything you said.
Let's go back to your words adam  
Torrag : 3/29/2017 5:50 pm : link
You said: 'I think Perine is a better value in the 2nd'

You said: 'I don't think it's marginal'...the difference between the two players

Those are clear cut statements. Aren't they? I responded specifically to counter your opinions I don't agree with. It's called a debate and it's what we do here.
RE: Let's go back to your words adam  
adamg : 3/29/2017 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13411203 Torrag said:
Quote:
You said: 'I think Perine is a better value in the 2nd'

You said: 'I don't think it's marginal'...the difference between the two players

Those are clear cut statements. Aren't they? I responded specifically to counter your opinions I don't agree with. It's called a debate and it's what we do here.


So, if a running back isn't seen as capable of blocking or receiving, that's negligible?
I already countered those points...  
Torrag : 3/29/2017 6:08 pm : link
...and you've got every right to your opinion. No sense rehashing it all again. It will be interesting to see how it plays out on draft day.
Sy'56/gidiefor: Is Smith still a mid-round prospect?  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/30/2017 12:08 pm : link
In comment 13409602 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
If NYG is going after a RB in rounds 3-5...
...Think they are looking at:
Foreman - Texas
Hunt - Toledo
Perine - Oklahoma
Conner - Pittsburgh
Smith - Michigan
gidiefor said:
Quote:
Tell you what Sy. Of those 5. I like Smith and Perine the best. Those two are true power backs. I give a slight edge to smith who seems to play more consistently bulling through the line, but Perine is really built like a tank
I understand De'Veon Smith seems like a good complement to Perkins and Vereen; but can any RB retain a Round 3-5 draft grade after running a 4.83 40 at the Michigan Pro Day? For perspective, Chris Wormley also ran a 4.83, at around 300 pounds. And it's not as though Smith was wildly productive in college. Looks more like a seventh-round pick to me, despite his pass-blocking skills.
Joe Williams is the mid-round RB that intrigues me...  
Milton : 3/30/2017 12:17 pm : link
If he interviews well, he would be a great pick at the end of the 4th round.
RE: Sy'56/gidiefor: Is Smith still a mid-round prospect?  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/30/2017 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13411935 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
In comment 13409602 Sy'56 said:

Quote:


If NYG is going after a RB in rounds 3-5...
...Think they are looking at:
Foreman - Texas
Hunt - Toledo
Perine - Oklahoma
Conner - Pittsburgh
Smith - Michigan

gidiefor said:

Quote:


Tell you what Sy. Of those 5. I like Smith and Perine the best. Those two are true power backs. I give a slight edge to smith who seems to play more consistently bulling through the line, but Perine is really built like a tank

I understand De'Veon Smith seems like a good complement to Perkins and Vereen; but can any RB retain a Round 3-5 draft grade after running a 4.83 40 at the Michigan Pro Day? For perspective, Chris Wormley also ran a 4.83, at around 300 pounds. And it's not as though Smith was wildly productive in college. Looks more like a seventh-round pick to me, despite his pass-blocking skills.


Smith is a bull -- you don't draft him for speed -- you draft him because he not afraid to smack through traffic
Smith weights 20 pounds less, is an inch shorter, and runs  
PatersonPlank : 3/30/2017 12:27 pm : link
a 4.8 versus a 4.41 (or 4.45) versus Foreman. He also gained over 1,000 yards less last year in college. I don't understand the dislike of Foreman on here. He certainly seems to be very underrated. I could see if he came from an FCS school, but this guy was the workhouse for Big-12 Texas. I'd love to have Foreman ahead of all the others listed in this thread.
RE: Sy'56/gidiefor: Is Smith still a mid-round prospect?  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/30/2017 2:00 pm : link
gidiefor said:
Quote:
Smith is a bull -- you don't draft him for speed -- you draft him because he not afraid to smack through traffic
I just don't see a lot of backs like that getting drafted at all, let alone in rounds 3-5. Check the Draft Day history of RBs who timed above 4.65 at the Combine. It's really grim. 4.83 at a Pro Day? That is horrendous. Unless the injury from the Combine was still slowing him down, it's hard to imagine his name being called before the waning hours of the draft. That's not to say he wouldn't be a good addition for the Giants - just that a back who can't threaten the edge isn't much of a draftable prospect.
Plank: I haven't seen much 'dislike' of Foreman.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/30/2017 2:23 pm : link
PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
I don't understand the dislike of Foreman on here. He certainly seems to be very underrated. I could see if he came from an FCS school, but this guy was the workhouse for Big-12 Texas. I'd love to have Foreman ahead of all the others listed in this thread.
I think it's more a question of whether he can offer immediate help. Issues with ball security and pass-protection have been known to keep talented rookie backs on the sideline. (See "Wilson, David", among others.)
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