Kratch: 10 Giants thoughts after NFL owners meeting

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After years of telegraphing their first round intentions, they have somehow managed to convince people they will not be taking an OL in round one despite the fact that OL is by far the team's weakest position.

In the words of Alan Felix....
"She bought it!" - ( New Window )

"he's a young player, and McAdoo's whole system is based on developing those guys. This will be a major development test for the Giants."

But I think the Giants are courting disaster leaving Flowers @ LT.

it's very unlikely they find a superior player between now and Sept ... the draft prospects aren't likely to be it, Clady is closer to toast, and a trade is very costly on two fronts.

It's one of the things I admire about the Packers - they get good value from their draft picks and they emphasize their development.

My money is on Mac and Flowers

The writing is on the wall for a first round edge rusher.

he was a 23 year old, 2nd year LT who played next to backups to backups for about 5 weeks in the middle of the season.

He was also playing his best football of the year in the final few weeks.

Why can't it be that the arrow is pointing up?

In comment 13411606 gidiefor said:

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It's one of the things I admire about the Packers - they get good value from their draft picks and they emphasize their development. My money is on Mac and Flowers

Same. Its a process, first and foremost. When you take a kid at 20 years old he's going to need a lot of work regardless of position, IMO, but especially at OT. There's enough good things with Flowers' first two years to have optimism. After going 11-5 I'm not sure why more fans don't trust McAdoo and the process.

In comment 13411613 Chris684 said:

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he was a 23 year old, 2nd year LT who played next to backups to backups for about 5 weeks in the middle of the season. He was also playing his best football of the year in the final few weeks. Why can't it be that the arrow is pointing up?

Agree. Seems to me that most here shit on Flowers, overrate Pugh, and are delusional about Richburg

OT and DE are needed...If not for depth.

I agree that it is unlikely Flowers will be removed. There does not seem to be anyone who will out play him.

In comment 13411574 UConn4523 said:

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"he's a young player, and McAdoo's whole system is based on developing those guys. This will be a major development test for the Giants."

My thoughts on Flowers are well-known, but this year is a make or break for Flowers along with the coaching staff. Sure we went 11-5, but without a herculean effort on the defensive part, we might have only won half of the games. For an offensive minded coach, the sputtering offense is on him. With the off-season additions, the expectations have to be a marked improvement. There isn't much room to be worse on the offensive side of the ball. If Flowers doesn't develop, this has to be laid at the feet of the coaching staff. What's an improvement from Flowers? 59 QB pressures and over 100 yards in penalties are attributed to him. These aren't some mysterious PFF grade. They are quantifiable stats. So again what's an improvement? No one is expecting a miraculous pro-bowl turnaround. Is only 60 yards in penalties and 30 QB pressures acceptable?

The honeymoon will be over with Ben if he is unable to develop Flowers. If the offense continues to underperform despite the recent additions, then Ben must be held accountable. If the Defense doesn't save Ben's backside again and we miss the playoffs with a mediocre record, Ben must be held accountable. For a rookie HC on a 3 year contract, he might not see the second contract if the owners don't see a quantifiable improvement in his area of expertise (offense).

In comment 13411569 Milton said:

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After years of telegraphing their first round intentions, they have somehow managed to convince people they will not be taking an OL in round one despite the fact that OL is by far the team's weakest position. In the words of Alan Felix.... "She bought it!" - ( New Window )

They haven't telegraphed their first rounders. Just because one or two writers or posters accurately predicted the first rounder some years doesn't mean it was telegraphed.

What's likely happening all these years is the Giants, like every team, is leaking different names to different reporters. Some get the right one. Some get the wrong one. Do you really think the Giants are actually telling a reporter who they will draft? They are leaking 10 different names and one of those names is the right one. Or they aren't leaking anything and reporters are simply making shit up. Perish the thought.

In comment 13411609 bigbluehoya said:

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The writing is on the wall for a first round edge rusher.

This. The Giants love edge rushers. They love using premium picks on edge rushers. That and DBs. They actually haven't used a premium pick on an edge rusher since taking JPP back in 2010 which really is hard to believe. The position is desperate for a young stud that can come in and not only provide depth in case of injury but actually play a lot of snaps. Wynn is a JAG. Owa is heading into a big year 3 after doing nothing his first 2 seasons. Okwara is a decent rusher but what is his long term growth?

The draft contains a few good edge rushers. Giants need one. I'd be shocked if they don't take one in rounds 1-2. Bet on it.

because a good player here would elevate this defense to excellence. It's one player away, barring relatively good health.

It makes so much sense. TE and OT will be there at 23. Giants will take the edge rusher and piss off a legion of fans that scream need need need. Edge rusher turns into Justin Tuck redux and the Giants win their 5th lombardi, 3rd at the expense of the Pats.

or Blue Chipper that happens to drop

In comment 13411704 djm said:

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I Do you really think the Giants are actually telling a reporter who they will draft?

It's not that they tell reporters, but that they do little to disguise their intentions. Whether it was true or not, last year it appeared that either (or both) Conklin and Floyd were their targets and lo and behold Chicago and Tennessee jumped in front of them to make the picks. The year before it seemed everyone knew that Scherff and Flowers were their targets.

OT is the Giants weakest position. Not just left tackle, but right tackle as well. There are three OT--Robinson, Ramczyk, Bolles--projected to go right around the spot where the Giants are selecting. It's more likely that all three will be gone than all three will be available, but chances are at least one of them will still be in the green room when the Giants are on the clock.

p.s.-- And let's not forget that Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker are free agents at the end of the year.

In comment 13411765 gidiefor said:

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or Blue Chipper that happens to drop

You mean like Cam Robinson or Ryan Ramczyk?

In comment 13411605 JonC said:

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it's very unlikely they find a superior player between now and Sept ... the draft prospects aren't likely to be it, Clady is closer to toast, and a trade is very costly on two fronts.

I maintain that we should sign King Dunlap as insurance

In comment 13411822 Milton said:

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In comment 13411704 djm said: Quote: I Do you really think the Giants are actually telling a reporter who they will draft? It's not that they tell reporters, but that they do little to disguise their intentions. Whether it was true or not, last year it appeared that either (or both) Conklin and Floyd were their targets and lo and behold Chicago and Tennessee jumped in front of them to make the picks. The year before it seemed everyone knew that Scherff and Flowers were their targets. OT is the Giants weakest position. Not just left tackle, but right tackle as well. There are three OT--Robinson, Ramczyk, Bolles--projected to go right around the spot where the Giants are selecting. It's more likely that all three will be gone than all three will be available, but chances are at least one of them will still be in the green room when the Giants are on the clock. p.s.-- And let's not forget that Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker are free agents at the end of the year.

I don't buy that. Not one reporter had us taking Apple. Other names were thrown around (that other CB, for instance) but no one had a clue about our actual pick.

In comment 13411765 gidiefor said:

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or Blue Chipper that happens to drop

The time to go CB is round 2, with the 55th pick. The two I like are Desmond King and Jourdan Lewis. Both are perfect for the nickel CB position and can also play free safety (also a position of uncertainty), so they kill two birds with one stone.

If the Giants grabbed Robinson or Ramczyk in round one and D.King or J.Lewis in round two, that's already a successful draft in my book.

In comment 13411835 2ndroundKO said:

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I don't buy that. Not one reporter had us taking Apple.

Exactly. Nobody was focusing on the consolation prize, just the two they were targeting. Maybe things would've gone the Giants way if the Tunsil video didn't come out that morning.

In comment 13411844 Milton said:

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In comment 13411835 2ndroundKO said: Quote: I don't buy that. Not one reporter had us taking Apple. Exactly. Nobody was focusing on the consolation prize, just the two they were targeting. Maybe things would've gone the Giants way if the Tunsil video didn't come out that morning.

Those weren't the only two names attached to us. We had Treadwell in for a visit, went to his pro day etc. The CB that Tampa Bay drafted was supposed to go to us too. Yet we skipped both. Bottom line, they were all guesses.

In comment 13411823 Milton said:

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In comment 13411765 gidiefor said: Quote: or Blue Chipper that happens to drop You mean like Cam Robinson or Ryan Ramczyk?

Milton - I really don't see the Giants taking Cam - and I don't see Ramczyk dropping to 23

In comment 13411879 gidiefor said:

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In comment 13411823 Milton said: Quote: In comment 13411765 gidiefor said: Quote: or Blue Chipper that happens to drop You mean like Cam Robinson or Ryan Ramczyk? Milton - I really don't see the Giants taking Cam - and I don't see Ramczyk dropping to 23

Cam fits the Giants prototype like a glove. Big, young, long-armed, SEC. And the so-called character concerns are a red herring. If you read the reports about the arrest, it was nothing. I expect Robinson to go ahead of Ramczyk, but what do I know. That's just my own preference, but I like them both. Bolles not as much, but I wouldn't hate the pick.

His floor is Kareem McKenzie, his ceiling is Trent Williams. With the 23rd pick, that's a steal!.....

Consuming every crumb of content and rumor about this team. You know what the roster makeup is. From that starting point, it is not rocket science to make a guess at who they are looking at in the draft.

If Raanan posts a name that makes sense, it doesn't mean it's a 'leak'. It's connecting dots. Anyone with a brain and free time can do this. The Giants need a tackle. Is it an organizational leak if someone speculates interest in Ramczyk?

Ben must be held accountable if flowers doesn't develop? You say some weird shit.

Blue chippers? What are you smoking and can I get some?

In comment 13411922 Milton said:

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His floor is Kareem McKenzie, his ceiling is Trent Williams. With the 23rd pick, that's a steal!.....

Milton - his floor is Eric Flowers as a first year rookie

In comment 13411979 djm said:

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Ben must be held accountable if flowers doesn't develop? You say some weird shit.

Ben's the Head Coach. It is Ben's system to develop players. From the linked article -

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McAdoo's whole system is based on developing those guys. This will be a major development test for the Giants.

Certainly, the player owns some responsibility in his development. But everyone repeats the same thing, "Flowers has all the tools, he's young, he's strong, blah, blah, blah." Well with all the tools and Ben's system of developing players, if Flowers doesn't develop, then yes, the Head Coach whose system is to develop players should be held accountable.

in player development, but you can't just blame them for pick failures, etc. There's blame for all parties involved - might not have been a great fit as a pick, may not have accepted coaching, the scheme could have been troublesome for the player's talents, etc.

2 seasons is too short to be sure a guy will not develop. Especially a guy with top end talent to be picked top 10 and is still only 22 like Flowers. He had some terrible plays and games last year, but also some decent play mixed in (he wasn't as terrible as some think our entire OL was - and these same people often think any OL from another team is better). His rookie season showed some promise, but he didn't build on that in year 2. He still can, and very well may improve a lot in year 3. It takes some guys longer to transition to the NFL, and LT isn't the easiest position - need time to learn blocking calls & schemes and how to work with the other OL.

I think the Giants plan is to go for continuity on the left side, while holding a competition for the right side spots. Flowers especially may be helped by playing next to the same guy, and a top LG like Pugh. Richburg had a down year too but I expect will be fine at C (maybe not a perennial pro-bowler, but solid C for 10 years hopefully). And I do think they add a pick to Jerry/Fluker/Hart right side battle, tho not sure we'll see Mangold. Contingency plan likely involves Pugh kicking out to LT, maybe Flowers to RT or even a G spot unless a complete disaster.

it's his job to win games and develop the players, in that order. He went 11-5 last year. HE wasn't bailed out of anything. Just because he came in as a so called offensive minded guy, a label thrown at him by media and fans, not a label he himself ever acknowledged, doesn't mean he didn't steer this team into winning waters. You're gonna kill this guy for his tenure if the defense outperforms the offense--I can see it already. And that''s unfair.

You might have said McAdoo was an offensive minded guy. All did McAdoo did was come in and coach the team to his best ability. And even if Ben himself said he worried about offense first who the hell cares how he wins games? Just win.

I won't even address the flowers crap you talked about.

In comment 13412020 Torrag said:

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Blue chippers? What are you smoking and can I get some?

A Deep Chunk X Blueberry X C-99 cross that I call the Deep Blue Sea. If you're in Los Angeles I can share some with you. It's very tasty!

when you say held accountable, what the hell do you mean? You're gonna fire McAdoo is Flowers or some other young player doesn't pan out?

You realize that shit you just quoted from the Giants is one part lip service one part hope, right? Just because the Giants release some line about Flowers being young and talented doesn't mean they take Ben out to the woodshed if Flowers doesn't reach his potential.

If Ben wins a lot of games he's going to coach here for a long time. Odds are the young talent will be just fine if they win.

Reese will get more heat if Flowers fails to develop. Not that he's in any danger but Flowers will have played for two HCs in his career and failed under both.

Just a really weird thing to say.