OK I know he has been discusses ad nauseum but a few posters have mentioned that he played well in last seasons final two games, namely the Washington and Green Bay games. Is that true? If so it seems that it is a very positive sign that the light has gone on. Anybody actually review his play in the those games and care to comment?
Then the problem was this, do we keep him there and let him go through the growing pains, the answer was yes, it was not real popular when we all saw how raw he was, for him to get better and be what he can be takes two things.
1- Time, with time comes experience. 2- Hard work, if he devoted himself to the hard work he could develop into a good left tackle.
He is supposed to be working his ass off this off season, the other thing that did not help was him getting injured early, then time goes into healing the injury and takes away from teaching and learning the position.
People want to make this into something it isn't, he has the talent, he needed time and needed to put in the work, I think we are going to see the pay off start to materialize, if the reports are true and he is able to stay healthy we could see a very different player next season. I remember time was needed for Jumbo Elliot. He became a very good left tackle, but he was raw and needed time also. I see a very similar situation here with Flowers.
I would have left him at right tackle for a couple of years, players do that all the time, but now that we are here maybe we reap the benefits of the tough two years we just watched with the kid.
Tunsil started last year at guard. Smith...two years before the move to OLT. Pace...guard year one.. etc. etc.
The folks who work with him and virtually live with him are confident. They make millions and work full time, JOe Fan started his senior year at Smallville High in 1990.
Just a hunch: go with the former.
Doesn't matter. GM Jr has decreed Flowers is the left tackle so hope for the best and that Eli's health insurance is paid up.
Doesn't matter. GM Jr has decreed Flowers is the left tackle so hope for the best and that Eli's health insurance is paid up.
Gene, when exactly did you turn on John Mara? I thought you were very supportive during our SB runs. Am I misremembering, my friend?
Doesn't matter. GM Jr has decreed Flowers is the left tackle so hope for the best and that Eli's health insurance is paid up.
Why shouldn't fans support him? Such an odd take to have on any player on this team. And they aren't excuses, how many above average, heck even just average 21 year old starting LTs are their in the NFL? I'll wait....
I do not know how to do it.....I need them to do it.
In any professional work space they encourage you to hit the road when passion is not there as you are not helping anyone including yourself. Find a safe space somewhere else. Ship has probably sailed already and he will turn into Will Beatty. If so, shame on the team for not cutting him loose or finding some safe spot of mediocrity to cover the financial investment. Right now he is a financial investment with no return. We are squandering precious time with a QB that is heading into the sunset.
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He had several years of coaching in a top college program where he was a LT and two years of coaching and experience as a starter and he's having the same issues as on his draft report. But he's a No. 1 pick, GM Jr is behind him and the fan toadies are lining up support.
Doesn't matter. GM Jr has decreed Flowers is the left tackle so hope for the best and that Eli's health insurance is paid up.
Gene, when exactly did you turn on John Mara? I thought you were very supportive during our SB runs. Am I misremembering, my friend?
If I may respond for Jonesie, perhaps it was after the '11 Super Bowl when Mara started to act more like Jerruh with each passing season (with the exception of not providing the necessary $ to support his HOF coach.) Or in more familial circumstances like his Dad acted in the sixties and seventies.
As for Flowers, outside the Giants bubble he is almost universally considered a bust pick. The Giants either still believe in him or are deluding themselves into continuing to believe in him. That's dangerous . It's cult-like . I haven't given up hope. Better have a backup plan, however,
From the Washington game:
Marshall Newhouse started at right tackle for Bobby Hart (forearm). The offensive line had a solid game. Against a Redskins team that had 37 sacks coming into the game, the line allowed one sack and only two quarterback hits. New York also rushed for a season-high 161 yards. Ereck Flowers was flagged for holding and Newhouse for illegal use of hands, the latter wiping out a 16-yard gain on 3rd-and-8 and leading to a punt. Left guard Justin Pugh gave up the only sack on a spin move by former Giants defensive tackle Cullen Jenkins in the 4th quarter.
From the Green Bay game:
It was not a strong effort by the Giants up front. The Packers are no slouches against the run (8th in the NFL) or rushing the passer (40 sacks). Both showed as the Giants running backs were held to 59 yards on 16 carries (3.7 yards per carry) and Eli Manning was sacked twice with three quarterback hits. The Giants were only penalized twice on offense, but false starts by Ereck Flowers and Marshall Newhouse on 1st-and-10 stymied drives before they got started and led to two three-and-outs. The interior trio did not distinguish themselves with their run blocking as each had breakdowns that disrupted running plays, including the killer failed 3rd-and-1 effort late in the first half. The Giants could not run the ball despite the fact that the Packers played both safeties deep (cover 2). Julius Peppers got the first sack against Ereck Flowers, but that was a bit of a coverage sack where Eli ran into Peppers. Flowers later gave up a pressure by Peppers on 3rd-and-6 early in the 3rd quarter leading to a punt. On the second and last sack, Flowers was cleanly beaten by LB Clay Matthews, who stripped the ball from Manning for the final nail in the coffin. Marshall gave up one big hit on Manning late in the game.
I don't have any real answers about what to do with Flowers. I still have some faith that he can become a serviceable LT at the very least, and that's bolstered by the fact that two of the more knowledgeable posters here - particularly when it comes to O-Line play - B in ALB and Joey in VA - haven't given up on him yet. Indeed, I believe they've said that the odds are that he will improve. Of course, that remains to be seen, but as I said, it does give me hope.
There isn't much to do or ponder at this point other than hoping he builds off even that type of improvement though. He's going to be the starting LT again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VehxtjQmIHQ
I'd rather have Ellison/Fluker added than pretty much any other OL signing I've seen this offseason around the league. [Whitworth would've been nice, but we'd be having the same conversation in 2 years, so whatever]
His consistency in both seasons is this....poor technique(a new OL coach did not change one thing).....can't handle speed rushers.....and the freakin' penalties....and, he is over rated in the running game...
That being said, do you want to take a chance on another rookie taking his place? Do you move Pugh over? Or do you keep him, there, and for once, give him a TE that will put a chip block on the DE.....why in the world, this simple play, especially on third down, was hardly ever used, just drives me crazy....
I know theres the "high pick" bias / they should be LTs, but I view the OL as a unit and if a guy is thriving at 1 position - you don't mess it up.
I've said a few times before, but I honestly think Flowers @ RG would allow him to play to his strengths and ultimately end up being a dominant all-pro caliber RG.
If there is not marked improvement in his game/year 3, this needs to be addressed.
sustaining drives and actually being able to convert a 3rd and short with a running play are not glamorous, but they were a huge issue last season - and Ellison's signing is going to go a long way in rectifying that hole in the offense.
Pugh is an excellent LG, ideal for this system, and his loss was a huge blow. He's thrived @ LG (compared to his play at T) - and should remain there.
I know theres the "high pick" bias / they should be LTs, but I view the OL as a unit and if a guy is thriving at 1 position - you don't mess it up.
I've said a few times before, but I honestly think Flowers @ RG would allow him to play to his strengths and ultimately end up being a dominant all-pro caliber RG.
If there is not marked improvement in his game/year 3, this needs to be addressed.
The biggest problem for the Giants if Flowers doesn't show marked improvement by the end of this upcoming season is that he will be entering the final year of his rookie contract. They can not consider picking up his 5th year option based on his performance to date. If by some chance that he begins to prove capable of the task, they still are not likely to pick up the option as it is calculated differently for Top 10 picks as compared to other 1st round picks. Also, the deadline to pick up the option is next May. So any consideration to guarantee him $15mil will be based on 1 year of performance. With no 5th year option, he will be playing on the last year of his contract.
It is a reality that with the current CBA and the salary inflation with players, franchises do not have the luxury of providing a scholarship for years while they wait for a player to develop that is drafted in the Top 10.
Franchises who are picking in the Top 10 need surefire starters. If no player is certain when a team is on clock, they would be wise to not make a selection and let their time lapse. Next team would be on the clock, and once the slotting is past the Top 10, then they can submit a pick. The 5th year option is much more affordable for picks 11-32.
He hasn't played a full 16-game season since his rookie year, 2013. And even if he does go the distance in 2017 and plays well, he's already made a ton of noise about a new contract. You have to ask yourself if he's worth what it will cost to keep him?
he's a health risk? so's everyone on the field. he's also 1 of the best at his position when on the field - and should be paid accordingly. absolutely perfect fit as a LG in an offense like Mcadoo's.
If the Giants want to keep Pugh they will have the money to do it. If he's getting much better offers, then maybe they let him walk. Pretty sure his games missed will be a factor to anyone bidding on him, it isn't a secret.
While we are at it, we can sign J-Load. J-Load running behind Flowers would be awesome to see once.
I agree we are focusing on his errors much like Apple it's a learning curve involved as long as we can see progress we should judge his future potential on things that happen while he was in the learning curve,he is very young so the potential to improve is huge .I really want to trade up for McCaffery in this draft,his dad was a Giant we have to respect out tradition and trust in our Giant greats gene pool,LOL,the kid is awesome in a full attack on ground and pass and is the best receiver in this draft by a large margin,his feet are amazing.
Diver_Down : 4/1/2017 1:28 pm : link : reply
The biggest problem for the Giants if Flowers doesn't show marked improvement by the end of this upcoming season is that he will be entering the final year of his rookie contract. They can not consider picking up his 5th year option based on his performance to date. If by some chance that he begins to prove capable of the task, they still are not likely to pick up the option as it is calculated differently for Top 10 picks as compared to other 1st round picks. Also, the deadline to pick up the option is next May. So any consideration to guarantee him $15mil will be based on 1 year of performance. With no 5th year option, he will be playing on the last year of his contract.
His rookie contract is over......he is playing this season on the fifth year option, that's why he is getting 8.8M this year.......so why haven't the Giants signed him to a new contract? Because they are hedging their bet.....If instead of giving him the 8.8M, they signed him to a new deal, they could have saved some cap room....but they didn't....Why? Because I think he is a one year rental because they don't think he can fulfill a multiyear deal, at the money he wants....he was drafted as a tackle, but plays better as a guard....nothing spectacular.....I think if the Giants draft OL this year, it is to replace Pugh, rather than Flowers, mainly because the better Tackles will be gone....
I realize Pugh's situation. I'm not enamored with his play. He's not a Top 10 guard as BBI likes to think. He might be lucky to break Top 20 if he could stay healthy. The guy misses too many games (bruised quad, migraines, sprained knee). After seeing what the market set this off-season for guards, Pugh will be looking for $8-$10 mil/yr.
I think this front office might be looking to draft his replacement this year. The crazy and shitty thing to do if the rookie does well in training camp is to cut Pugh outright. His 5th year option is guaranteed for injury only if he is on the final 53. Cutting him at the end of August and he doesn't see a dime.