Eli Manning HOF viability

Then the greatest QB to ever play for the Giants should be first ballot slams dunk.

They'll jerk him around on the first ballot then he'll go in. Like Strahan and that was a fucking joke too.

199 consecutive starts

Football HOF voters are generally very traditional. It's rings and historical stats

He's got the rings, and thanks to Beckham he's scaling the all time list in multiple categories.

At the end of the day, there are too many championships and "____ all time in ____" next to his resume to keep him out after a couple more seasons.

the monthly Eli HOF post?

Tony Romo gets voted in as a first ballot hall of famer while Eli doesn't get in until his 2nd or 3rd shot.

How long it MIGHT take, I have zero idea

In comment 13419935 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

Tony Romo gets voted in as a first ballot hall of famer while Eli doesn't get in until his 2nd or 3rd shot.

Romo a hall of famer with @ playoff Wins???????????

2 wins.

good call. he is also top 10 all time in consecutive starts for a QB (#3). Behind only Peyton and Favre.

In comment 13419914 figgy2989 said:

Quote:

199 consecutive starts

is at the forefront of it somehow.

Look up who votes and will still likely be voting. With a few exceptions. the general opinion on him as a player from most of those guys isn't usually glowing and as rate stats seep into the discussion more, it will only hurt him worse. 2013 unfortunately and unfairly completely wrecked how he had been turning his narrative around. He's viewed as an inconsistent turnover machine that consistently misses the playoffs and has to be carried to any success by the defense and now Beckham. Even his SB MVPs get routinely tagged with "... but they could/should have gone to someone else."

he doesn't even sniff the top 10 or 20 for all time interceptions. the turnover machine narrative is bullshit if he is knocking at no. 5 for 4 of the all-time records, they can't keep him out coz he is perceived as a turnover machine, esp if the data don't support that narrative, right? the process isn't totally biased and based on feelings is it? i've never looked up who votes

In comment 13420014 Devon said:

Quote:

is at the forefront of it somehow. Look up who votes and will still likely be voting. With a few exceptions. the general opinion on him as a player from most of those guys isn't usually glowing and as rate stats seep into the discussion more, it will only hurt him worse. 2013 unfortunately and unfairly completely wrecked how he had been turning his narrative around. He's viewed as an inconsistent turnover machine that consistently misses the playoffs and has to be carried to any success by the defense and now Beckham. Even his SB MVPs get routinely tagged with "... but they could/should have gone to someone else."

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. People like to talk about how there's this big agenda against Eli Manning and I don't see it. Earlier in his career you could certainly make that claim, but not now. Nobody goes after him

. Also, I don't see anyone on the list of hall of fame voters that would make me think twice other than Gary Myers.

http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of-the-game/becoming-a-hall-of-famer/

It's not like it's a who's who of media personalities that are known to be Anti-Eli.

turnover-prone for the eras he's played in. He plays two more years, 32 games, throws 15 picks each (a low total by his own standards, even if no longer by league ones), he'll be in the top ten for interceptions -- that's pretty rough, given how the league has been trending since about when he came into it and he hasn't offset it with his other stats being great, outside of some compiling counting stats thanks to his durability, like a Brees has.

It's mostly about perception and narrative though. Something doesn't have to be accurate or accurately paint the full picture (2013 was pretty much Gilbride throwing him to slaughter, with how terrible that group was, but he's the one who has to carry it) to be accepted. If he was louder or had more swag or wasn't Peyton's little lesser brother, maybe the bad things wouldn't have stuck or stick the way they do for his image and the picks, playoff misses, etc wouldn't matter like they never did for someone like Favre.

at worst.

he's highly regarded otherwise and is a HoF lock even if he never plays another down. Not first ballot, but he's in at some point.

he is currently #21 for all time interceptions. he might make top 10 (so will brees if he plays 2 more years), but he will also be like #6 for 4 of the all time records. maybe #5 for 4th quarter comebacks. i don't see how the interceptions dog him on the ballot to that extent. part of the reasons he's had more career interceptions is because he's played a lot more games than other QBs drafted around that time like rothelisberger, rivers, palmer, rodgers. i mean, granted rodgers only has 72 career INTs in 135 games, but still. i agree if he is top 10 INTs for his career it will be an X on his record.

for good reason. Outside of that group I don;t think people care or think of it because it is not a slam dunk. Keep bringing up two SB MVP's daily because thats his biggest claim to fame. And who votes for that award?

He's always ranked outside of the top 10 at the position by just about every football publication.

Other NFL players who vote in that top 100 NFL network have never ranked him high.

Today, Ryan Clark was talking about how overrated Romo was and while he was saying it he said he was a tougher guy to prepare for then Eli.

Outsid did the NYG fan base he doesn't get recognition as a great QB. Very good at time. Never elite. Durable. With some notable wins. That's the rep he has outside of NY.

against him?

Different eras skew the stats too much. Criteria for HOF should be was the player top three at his position for at least 5yrs of his career. Except for 2011, Eli has never had a year they puts him in that category

In comment 13420147 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

He's always ranked outside of the top 10 at the position by just about every football publication. Other NFL players who vote in that top 100 NFL network have never ranked him high. Today, Ryan Clark was talking about how overrated Romo was and while he was saying it he said he was a tougher guy to prepare for then Eli. Outsid did the NYG fan base he doesn't get recognition as a great QB. Very good at time. Never elite. Durable. With some notable wins. That's the rep he has outside of NY.

Dude you are so predictable...clueless how hard to win not one but two SB's...

Ryan Clark my ass...

The HOF is a commercial enterprise that needs to be relevant - continue to draw attention from fans and the media to promote itself. No better way than to prolong some controversy regarding its selection process. Snubbing Eli fits the bill perfectly.

He played over 10 years. He won a SB. So he probably knows how hard it is to win one. Probably knows a little about the game. I'm sure you agree with his opinion on Romo, but anything that doesn't elevate Eli means he's a clueless hack. I get it.

For the past 10 years we've seen QB rankings consistently rank Eli outside of the top 10. Year after year. Isn't that a sign he isn't highly regarded outside of this fan base?

In comment 13419905 trueblueinpw said:

Quote:

Then the greatest QB to ever play for the Giants should be first ballot slams dunk.

LOL!
There are a few QBs in already that couldn't hold Eli's jock.

In comment 13419935 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

Tony Romo gets voted in as a first ballot hall of famer while Eli doesn't get in until his 2nd or 3rd shot.

Well hell. Romo didn't turn down a team that drafted him, did he?



:>)

I mean in the very name and nature of the place it's a hall of famous people. When you write the story of the league you have to include him as all time Giants QB and the nemesis of BB and Brady. He's a likeable guy and he'll have all metrics that matter. Top 10 in yards, Top 10 touchdowns etc. and he 2 Super Bowl Victories.

He's not the greatest QB of all time but he's a ball of Famer

In comment 13420192 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

He played over 10 years. He won a SB. So he probably knows how hard it is to win one. Probably knows a little about the game. I'm sure you agree with his opinion on Romo, but anything that doesn't elevate Eli means he's a clueless hack. I get it. For the past 10 years we've seen QB rankings consistently rank Eli outside of the top 10. Year after year. Isn't that a sign he isn't highly regarded outside of this fan base?

I think you care and put entirely too much stock in lists and sound bites. Look at the selection committee instead of guys like Ryan Clarke.

championed Jay Cutler as being better than Eli Manning are going to use whatever chance they can to downgrade his accomplishments.

Hell, just yesterday, we were told that in the Giants two SB runs that the defense really was the reason we have the rings.

I'll ask the question I always do: How many times in the Eli Manning Era have the Giants had the best team? How many rings do they have?

My answer is they have been the best team zero times and won two rings. That's enough to get Eli into the HOF, and it is surely enough to get people who rated Jay Cutler as better to realize how idiotic they sound on every Eli thread.

In comment 13419984 shelovesnycsports said:

Quote:

In comment 13419935 Jay on the Island said: Quote: Tony Romo gets voted in as a first ballot hall of famer while Eli doesn't get in until his 2nd or 3rd shot. Romo a hall of famer with @ playoff Wins???????????

Romo gets in as a holder

I know the argument defaults to ELi vs Romo eventually, but when compared to their peers (QBs in the league at the same time), Romo just doesn't favorably compare.


Tony Romo Was A Good QB In An Era Of Great Ones - ( New Window )

But a lot of people don't. There's just a lot of antipathy towards Eli, most of it stemming from '04 & the absurd putdown that he isn't his brother, who might be one of the top three QBS ever.

never misses games. Two titles, top of the list in most of the passing stats. Beat Brady and Bill 2 times.

In comment 13420313 Giants86 said:

Quote:

never misses games. Two titles, top of the list in most of the passing stats. Beat Brady and Bill 2 times.

Being an iron man is probably his most underrated trait. It's also a trait that's highly regarded across all of sports.

Are you really one of the fans that takes every comment on Eli as an attack? It makes you look like a chump.

First of all, the defense is the reason we won the SB and that isn't a shot at Eli unless your one of the guys with a need to defend him on any front: my issue with that thread was Terpa saying he carries the worst team to ever win a SB. That's idiotic. And so is defending that BS point.

My point here? Is it a shot at Eli? Only in the eyes of a few. Surprised you're in that group but I see you are and fall back on the old Cutler routine.

Why not stick to the point?

Eli is "highly regarded" outside of teams?

You agree with that?

I know you don't because your one of the guys who bitches the most when these rankings are posted here. Every year, like another weak Cutler reference, you are here to bitch about it.

I don't think he's highly regarded outside of fans. Most believe he was not and never has been an elite player.

Time to reply with more Cutler BS? Have at it.

If you look at their numbers at same point in career, Flacco and Eli are fairly similar. If Flacco were to add another SB win, would you consider him a HOF'er?

Because, outside Giants fans, there are a lot of people that consider Eli = Flacco type of player.

Eli highly regarded outside of fans?

If you look at their numbers at same point in career, Flacco and Eli are fairly similar. If Flacco were to add another SB win, would you consider him a HOF'er?

Because, outside Giants fans, there are a lot of people that consider Eli = Flacco type of player.

In comment 13420412 chilly460 said:

Quote:

If you look at their numbers at same point in career, Flacco and Eli are fairly similar. If Flacco were to add another SB win, would you consider him a HOF'er? Because, outside Giants fans, there are a lot of people that consider Eli = Flacco type of player.

1. That's a big assed "if".
2. Will Joe Flacco finish in the top 5-10 in all of the all time categories that Eli has?
3. Does Joe Flacco have anything unique on his resume, like Eli's current iron man streak?

that people who don't appreciate Eli fail one of football's IQ tests. That people who don't value SB wins, as a team, coach or player, fail football's IQ tests. That people who expect success every year and then try to call the team shit when they don't achieve it fail football's IQ tests.

I don't take every comment against Eli as an attack - just ones that are pretty idiotic, especially the attempts to downplay his significance to this team's history.

I don't give a shit about rankings or what reporter's comments are. When I chime in on these threads - it isn't to talk about the rankings - it is usually to rebut the ramblings of supposed Giants fans. The ones that feel a need to minimize what Eli has done, whether it be by calling him a "game-manager" while winning two SB's, or throw out comparisons to shitty QB's who have come and gone while Eli is still around.

I really don't give a shit how some reporter ranks things - I give more of a shit that our own fans don't comprehend Eli, especially those who seem proud to wallow in the ignorance.

In comment 13420413 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

Eli highly regarded outside of fans?

Its amazing to me that some "Giant fans" like yourself can't grasp the significance of what Eli has accomplished here during his career...

You're a HOF voter, and they submit a guy for voting who:

1. Has won 2 Superbowls and 2 Superbowl MVP's
2. Finished in the top ten (likely top five) all time statistically in most major passing categories.
3. Started at least 199 consecutive games (hopefully many more by then, but 199 guaranteed as of right now), basically 13 years without EVER missing a game.
4. Led two game winning drives to win both Superbowls.

Do you even hesitate? It's a stone cold f-cking lock.

The ONLY quarterback with two Superbowl wins not in the HOF is Jim Plunkett. He doesn't have anything nearly close to the rest of the list above, despite playing for like 15 seasons.

.

Has 5 less 4K yard seasons (only has 1 I believe) and averages 6 less TDs per season. A lot can happen be he likely doesn't come close to what Eli will finish with from a stats perspective.

not once, but TWICE, in the Superbowl... Including one of the teams was 18-0 when it happened and the Giants were 12 point dogs going into it.

It's not isolated to a few here and there. Its not one year or a few. t's most of them over a long period of time and these are the guys who happen to vote for the HOF.

So is he highly regarded outside of fans?

Is it the truly informed that consider him elite and HOF worthy? I realize you consider yourself part of this group. Outside of you, who are these people?

there the year Clark won his Superbowl, without his best WR for the first half of the game, and by displaying gigantic balls of steel by throwing a deep bomp to Amani Toomer on 4th and 1 (yet another 4th quarter comeback).

Was Clark prepared for that one?

In comment 13420075 section125 said:

Quote:

at worst.

This.

And I don't think he has a chance in hell of going first ballot. Nor do I think he should.

just look at Britt's list above. If you don't think those metrics get you into the HOF then I don't know what to tell you.

Don't give a shit about what I think or how in tune I am with the pulse of people outside of the team. If you look at that list of accomplishments and think he's not getting in, then you're as apathetic about Eli as you come across on BBI.

In comment 13420445 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

It's not isolated to a few here and there. Its not one year or a few. t's most of them over a long period of time and these are the guys who happen to vote for the HOF. So is he highly regarded outside of fans? Is it the truly informed that consider him elite and HOF worthy? I realize you consider yourself part of this group. Outside of you, who are these people?

Depends on what you believe. The NFL is a media circus, any and everyone fighting for a piece to stay relevant. Take Sal Palantonio. Despite being an eagles fan and saying what he does to appease that fan base, I have a hard time believeing he thinks Eli has an average NFL career. It just doesn't make sense.

His body of work, his iron man streak, his 2 historic SB wins, and his philanthropy makes him a shoe in. He's a true ambassador to the sport. Not sure what else you are looking for.

Maybe we should get this out the way... are you implying that Eli shouldn't be considered for the HoF? You've yet to come flat out and say that (at least on this thread) so I'm just wondering.

.

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13420462 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 13420445 KWALL2 said: Quote: It's not isolated to a few here and there. Its not one year or a few. t's most of them over a long period of time and these are the guys who happen to vote for the HOF. So is he highly regarded outside of fans? Is it the truly informed that consider him elite and HOF worthy? I realize you consider yourself part of this group. Outside of you, who are these people? Depends on what you believe. The NFL is a media circus, any and everyone fighting for a piece to stay relevant. Take Sal Palantonio. Despite being an eagles fan and saying what he does to appease that fan base, I have a hard time believeing he thinks Eli has an average NFL career. It just doesn't make sense. His body of work, his iron man streak, his 2 historic SB wins, and his philanthropy makes him a shoe in. He's a true ambassador to the sport. Not sure what else you are looking for.

You see... I think he gets in (again, just not first ballot) but I don't know if he's a 'shoo-in' like some are stating and that's because I agree with KWALL that outside of Giants fans and a few media members, Eli's just never been viewed as an elite, high-level QB (except for maybe 2008). Do I/we think he should get in? Yeah. But what we think doesn't really matter does it?

The resume speaks for itself, and they'd have a lot of explaining to do keeping a player with that resume out.

I doubt it would though.

you are likely putting way too much stock in what people say who work for networks that want ratings. Boomer and Carton is a perfect example. Two blowhards who behind closed doors without the mic on probably have a ton of respect for Eli.

His resume now is good enough. If he plays for another 3 years without too much drop off he's going to end his career with over 55,000 yards and has a shot at 400 TDs.

He's getting in.

Considered? Yes.

When this came up last year, I said he still needed a few great years to get in or a big team year( and I thought he would get it last season as I stated I expected his best year ever)

He did not get it. Last year did not help his case.

He's a fringe HOF at this point.

I prefer HOF guys to have a few dominant years. At least a few where they were considered the best or close to the best at their positions. He hasn't had them.

My point here was about his rep outside of the fans. I don't think he's highly regarded. That's my point here. Nothing about my opinion on the player. It's my opinion on how he's perceived outside of NYG fan base. as a guy who does follow the NFL closely(not just the Giants), I don't see others with a "high regard" for Eli.

The interesting thing is how stating that on BBI upsets a few here.

I'm wrong? Others have a high regard for him? I'd like to see it.

.

In comment 13420477 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

you are likely putting way too much stock in what people say who work for networks that want ratings. Boomer and Carton is a perfect example. Two blowhards who behind closed doors without the mic on probably have a ton of respect for Eli. His resume now is good enough. If he plays for another 3 years without too much drop off he's going to end his career with over 55,000 yards and has a shot at 400 TDs. He's getting in.

Probably? But what if the feelings they say on-air is exactly how they feel about Eli?

Again... I agree with you that he SHOULD get in. But I can see KWALL's point that it may be tougher than we Giants fans think it should be because of the general perception of Eli outside the Giants fanbase.

but putting so much stock in what talking heads say is a poor argument.

Take Romo. Very good QB and he's loved by the media. I guarantee he doesn't get in which will have nothing to do with how praised he is whenever you turn on the NFL network or espn.

Eli is goofy, unflashy, and gives boring interviews. That's why he isn't "liked" but he's absolutely respected, IMO.

it's just something I happen to believe. Ryan Clarke doesn't vote for the HoF, neither does Carton. I really don't care what those guys say or think.

In comment 13420478 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

Considered? Yes. When this came up last year, I said he still needed a few great years to get in or a big team year( and I thought he would get it last season as I stated I expected his best year ever) He did not get it. Last year did not help his case. He's a fringe HOF at this point. I prefer HOF guys to have a few dominant years. At least a few where they were considered the best or close to the best at their positions. He hasn't had them. My point here was about his rep outside of the fans. I don't think he's highly regarded. That's my point here. Nothing about my opinion on the player. It's my opinion on how he's perceived outside of NYG fan base. as a guy who does follow the NFL closely(not just the Giants), I don't see others with a "high regard" for Eli. The interesting thing is how stating that on BBI upsets a few here. I'm wrong? Others have a high regard for him? I'd like to see it.

I'm almost 100% with you on this post KWALL (although I think I believe he has a slightly better HOF resume than it appears you do). But I agree with you that he's straddling the fence and isn't the 'shoo-in' that some think he is. I actually think his name and personality will actually HELP him get in, whereas they've always seemed to hurt him during his playing days.

What stock am I putting into any rankings. It's simply an example hat he is. It highly regarded outside of fans.

You said he is. If it isn't the media ( and these rankings aren't limited to a few blowhards) don't work for you then what are you talking about?

You will find many opinions outside of fans. Doesn't this give you a feel for how he's perceived? ( yeah I know, if it isn't pro-Eli it's either click bait ofr another uniformed opinion)

First search result, from ESPN, August 2016.

Quote:

Eli Manning might make the Hall of Fame, which is going to infuriate a lot of people. On numbers alone, Eli shouldn't be there. He has made four Pro Bowls, and while he has put together a very nice second peak after the arrival of Ben McAdoo, nobody who watches Manning on a week-to-week basis thinks that he looks like a Hall of Famer by any stretch of the imagination. The basis for his candidacy, then, is winning two Super Bowl MVP awards in victories over the Patriots, and Manning will get bonus credit for beating the previously undefeated 2007 Patriots. (The memories of Eli nearly throwing the game away with an interception on the play before the Helmet Catch have already mostly disappeared.) The list of guys who have won Super Bowl MVP two or more times includes Terry Bradshaw, Tom Brady, Joe Montana and Bart Starr. They're all in (or will be in) the Hall of Fame. I'd also argue that Eli doesn't belong on a tier with those passers because of what they all did in the other hundreds of games they each played over the course of their respective careers. I wouldn't vote for him, but some will. 40 percent.

There are a lot of guys in that I would put in to HOF. He might make it but before last season I thought he had to do more. Last year he did not. Right now I think he's a toss up (more likely not) to get in but I wouldn't bet on it.

And I feel the same way (toss up) but believe he will (and should) get in.

I just don't think the first ballot is realistic at all. Matter of fact, I can see him waiting a few years.

But let's look at some numbers, shall we?

QB X: 165 games, 32,942 yards, 165 TDs/141 INTs, 61.5 completion%, 7.0 YPA

QB Y: 201 games, 48,218 yards, 320 TDs/215 INTs, 59.7 completion%, 7.1 YPA

QB Z: 208 games, 49,325 yards, 291 TDs/233 INTs, 58.4 completion%, 7.2 YPA.


You've probably guessed Y is Eli Manning. X and Z are HOF QBs Troy Aikman and Warren Moon.

but I'm pretty sure Aikman and Moon kick some ass on the Twitterverse.....

I don't read espn and won't now. I really don't know what to tell you. I generally don't buy into what's printed for the masses, and that isn't specific to the Giants or teams I root for.

and the goal posts will move again.

No one playing Dallas in the '90s started their defensive meetings by saying "We gotta find a way to stop Troy Aikman!" Guy played with a dominant defense and running game, behind possibly the greatest OL in NFL history, and yet THOSE stats put him in Canton?

I stand by my opinion from the other day that he's the most overrated QB in NFL history.

In comment 13420528 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

and the goal posts will move again.

That's true to a certain extent, but in the case of Aikman and Moon it's not as if they played in the '60s. Both of them were still in the league only a few years before Eli first took the field. The real point at which you need to allow for eras is 1978, when pass coverage rules changed dramatically.

In comment 13420533 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 13420528 Britt in VA said: Quote: and the goal posts will move again. That's true to a certain extent, but in the case of Aikman and Moon it's not as if they played in the '60s. Both of them were still in the league only a few years before Eli first took the field. The real point at which you need to allow for eras is 1978, when pass coverage rules changed dramatically.

You don't have to convince me.... I know that.

Eli's career INT total might hurt him, as he well likely be in the Top 10 all time for INTs, and it plays into the narrative the he's this inconsistent, turnover-prone doofus. But Favre, Marino and Peyton are all in the Top 10 all time for career INTs and no one uses that statistical category to denigrate them.

Brees is the only active QB with more INTs than Eli (220 v. 215), but Brees only has one season with 20+ INTs (Eli has 3), and Brees has played 32 more games than Eli. And of course Brees has thrown for 30+ TDs for the last 9 seasons (40+ in 2 of those seasons). Eli only has 2 seasons where he has 30+ TDs. Clearly Eli is no Brees, but Brees is a top 3 all time guy.

Rivers and Roethlisberger will also be in the Top 10 for some of the all-time records when they hang em up too, not sure how that will reflect on Eli, but my point in posting where he currently ranks in the all time categories shows that he's objectively been very prolific throughout his career. On those numbers alone, to contrast whatever douchey ESPN analyst wrote, he DOES have the numbers, and he has them NOW.

Where the metal meets the meat, as Hal Moore says in We Were Soldiers....

Aikman: 16 games, 3849 yards, 23 TD/17 INT, 63.7%
Moon: 10 games, 2870, 17/14, 64.3%
Manning: 12 games, 2815, 18/9, 60.5%

eli actually has 3 seasons with 30+ TDs.. my mistake.

If anyone can point me to a season in which a QB willed a weaker team than the 2011 Giants to a championship, I'd appreciate it, because I can't think of one.

Let's talk intangibles that accentuate the statistics.

1st, Roethlisberber and Rivers....

The 2004 Rookie Quarterback Class is the most prolific since 1983, and all three of those guys are in: Elway, Marino, and Kelly.

Between Manning, Roethlisberger, and Rivers have combined for:

4 Superbowl Championships
2 Superbowl MVP's
5 Superbowl Appearances
6 Conference Championship Game Appearances
20 Combined Playoff Appearances
25-16 Combined Playoff Record
All three will finish in the top 10 in most major passing statistical categories

That's the Quarterback class of 2004. Pretty damn good.

2nd, The Manning name as T-bone alluded to.

The Manning Brothers combined for 4 Championships 3 Superbowl MVP's
They also won Championships and MVP's in back to back seasons. That will likely NEVER happen again.

3rd, The Iron Man Streak

4th, Leading two game winning drives and being part of two of the most unique plays in Superbowl history, including arguably the greatest which will undoubtedly be still playing in 50 years in highlight reels with the Immaculate Reception, etc....

Those are just storylines in addition to the numbers.

He's got the whole package.

In comment 13420549 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

If anyone can point me to a season in which a QB willed a weaker team than the 2011 Giants to a championship, I'd appreciate it, because I can't think of one.

KWALL already dismissed his 2011 season from being anything really special the other day.

these threads are just a sounding board for people who like to minimize Eli's accomplishments. By the metrics others have gotten in, but the stats Eli will have when he retires, and for the postseason success Eli has had, he'll easily get into the Hall. 1st ballot or not is inconsequential - he'll be in Canton.

The rest of the discussion is usually just mental gymnastics trying to promote the idea that the rest of the universe looks at him like Trent Dilfer.

I'm still wondering why some supposed fans of the team go to such lengths to minimize Eli. Hell, Phil Simms isn't in the Hall, and we don't discuss him not being there because of the impression of ESPN. We discuss him not being there because of his numbers.

I'm just waiting for the day Rivers comes up for the hall (and probably makes it) and you won't hear a peep from the guy who regularly scans Twitter on how people look at him outside of SD.

It is used to push some strange agenda that saying Eli Manning is good actually isn't good - even as a Giants fan. Simply bizarre.

I get that, and it's kind of funny because I'm one of the less Eli-crazy people here. I do think Giants fans tend to overrate him. He's had a unique career - I can't think of another QB whose overall performances varied so wildly yet also played at such a high level in the playoffs.

same TD/INT ratio, same yards/attempt, etc. etc. He's tracking along the same trajectory. The only difference at this point is the number of games played and the stats that go along with that: 298 starts for Favre, 199 for Eli. If Eli plays another 3-4 years even with the 'poor' numbers he put up last year, he's a lock.

In comment 13420594 BH28 said:

Quote:

same TD/INT ratio, same yards/attempt, etc. etc. He's tracking along the same trajectory. The only difference at this point is the number of games played and the stats that go along with that: 298 starts for Favre, 199 for Eli. If Eli plays another 3-4 years even with the 'poor' numbers he put up last year, he's a lock.

Favre was a three time league MVP, but the rest I agree with.

despite ups and downs..I have no vested interest in WHAT ballot he gets in on..If he did nothing more than those two all-time playoff runs(not just the ultimate SBs, one of which was as tremendous underdogs to an all-time great team(2007), he'd have a decent shot to make the HOF, given how asterisk worthy those runs were..No one has come close to such a run imo..However, his cumulative stats that HOF voters splooge over will be there AS WELL, so THAT is what makes him an ultimate lock imo, regardless of when that enshrinement occurs..That's my two cents..

Wrong. In fact what you posted was nothing but a lie.

I didn't agree with the ridiculous comment about Eli carrying the worst team to ever win a SB. I see in your view, if you don't agree it was a one man show and he carried the misfits to the championship you are dismissing his accomplishments that year? Ok. Typical BBI right there. Try again. Go back and read it and you'll see your full of it.

Wow Greg....now he willed them to the championship. What a bunch of fan BS that is.

In the last 7 games, pretty much all must win games, the defense shut down all of them and that included the best offenses.. That was all about the will of the QB!

That is only one example. It was part of my reply to the he's "highly regarded outside of the fans" comment. I don't think that is true at all.

Still waiting for your reply on that one. Who are these people?

FMIc says it's the truly informed. Is that it?

winning 2 superbowl MVP's is not a coincidence. He's in.

also no one list the NFL man of the year award, which won't hurt.

beat Brady, and did it twice .... which will get bigger as the years go by.

Always have been, always will be.

First of all, it was the final six games - seven games would include a game in which the defense allowed 23 to the sorryass Redskins and Rex fucking Grossman.

Second of all - they barely squeaked into the playoffs at all because the defense was dogshit for the vast majority of the season, along with the running game. The only reason they were even in a position to have a chance at the SB is because Eli won some games early in the season that they had no business winning.

Third of all, if the Giants weren't the weakest champion, tell me who is? You want to give all the credit to the defense that allowed 400 fucking points that season? Are you fucking kidding me?

I'm not arguing with what you said. You have a right to that opinion. I just don't think he's a lock mainly based on how he's seemingly been perceived throughout his career and it's a mystery why some are not understanding this. Do I think he'll get in? Yes. Do I think he deserves to get in? Yes. Do I think that he'll be voted in? Eh... yeah... I think so... but am not 100% sure he will.

Eli's HOF vote will be one of the more interesting votes in the history of the HOF because whether some of us want to admit it or not, he's barely been perceived as a top 10 (let alone top 5) QB in the league during his career (rightly or wrongly) and I'm with KWALL that I generally would prefer a guy who gets inducted to be in that conversation at least through part of his career.

why some of y'all are getting so upset over this discussion.

All I've done is state the facts. And IMO, the facts say he's in until somebody can pull up a similar resume of a player at that position that is not in.

I also believe when it's all said and done, the final book will completely obliterate the perception.

And as we all know, perception doesn't equal reality in most cases. I believe that to be true here, as well.

Vs the redskins Eli had 3 picks including 2 in our end that resulted in 10 points. The defense also started the game with 2 picks on the first 3 drives. Allowed only 3ypc for the game and 180 yards passing. In other words a hell of a defensive game.

But go ahead.

"Always a Clown" huh? What is your rep here?

In 2011 regular season the defense had some awful games. The story is hkw they played late and in the playoffs.

However, in 5 of the 9 wins they allowed 17 or less. In the win vs NE on the road they only allowed 20 (the lowest point total for Brady in 5 years at home).

6 out of 9 wins we're strong defensive games

All of the playoff games they were exceptional.

My point, that seems to hurt the sensitive guys like you, was the 2011 was a team effort. Not a one man show. And based on the play of the defense late it was not the worst team to win a SB.

I will grant the defense came together for the final run...But that was a mediocre team for most of the year. Eli dragged the team to some wins....they would have likely finished 7-9 or worse without his great play at the end of games. And Eli was great in each of the four playoff games. With the SF game probably being his signature game in my opinion.

That team is in the discussion for the worst team to ever win a Super Bowl.

at what point in Eli's career have the Giants been the best team in the league?

How many SB's do they have?

Don't care if it is the D, Eli, Coughlin or whomever carried the team - Eli has 2 SB rings and 2 SB MVP's on teams that weren't the best in the league.

And since we put so much stock in what outsiders think, Eli has 2 Super Bowl MVP's, not Strahan or a member of the D.

But like I said above, the whole discussion is sort of just a platform for some people to come out of the woodwork to once again talk about Eli being "meh".

I Googled "Worst Teams To Ever Win Superbowl". The 2011 Giants, as well at the 2007 Giants, are on most lists.

The first two games were disasters for the defense. They went 10-4 after that. Then, in 2008, a mostly unchanged team dominated the league for much of the season before L'Affair Plaxico. Not that they needed validation, but 2008 should have laid to rest any talk about them being a mediocre team.

The 2011 Giants, on the other hand, missed the playoffs in both the preceding and following seasons.

In which 2011 wins did the QB carry the team?

You have ARZ and first DAL win. Eli lit them up in those 2 wins and carried the team. 7 more regular season wins. He didn't carry them in these games.

5 of the wins the defense held to 17 or less.

Vs NE they allowed 20 but also got 3 turnovers from Brady including one at the NE 10 (next play 10 yard TD run by Jacobs). Did Eli carry the team here? He had the late TD drive to win it. Great finish. Late in the 3rd, he also threw an INT from the NE 5 in a tied game.

The other win was 27-24 vs Buf. Webster 2 picks. Bradshaw had 3 rushing TDs. Eli had a strong game. 290 yards and no picks. He was a big factor in the win but didn't carry the team.

Getting the to 9 wins was not about a QB carrying a team.

In 2 of the losses (NO & GB, both 13 win teams, 2 best offenses in the NFL avg close to 35/game) the defense gave us no chance. 2 losses. Vs DAL the first time, Romo lit us up but Eli carried the team to a big win.

Eli hurt us in some of the losses such as 3 INTs vs WAS, the 17-10 loss to PHI, and the 4 TOs vs SEA.

One thing you see when reviewing the play by play is JPP had a lot of 3rd down sacks in 2011. He kicked ass.

In comment 13420704 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

I Googled "Worst Teams To Ever Win Superbowl". The 2011 Giants, as well at the 2007 Giants, are on most lists.

To MAKE the SB is worthy of discussion re worst teams ever. BUT, their entire YEAR'S body of work resulting in two championships puts them at 14-6 for 2007 and 13-7(2011) in totality, making them extremely worthy champions for a full football calendar year..

It almost always goes to the QB.

In 2007, that should have gone to somebody on the DL like Tuck.

Does the best team always win the SB? No. Plenty win it without being the best. Plenty of the best teams (2008 Giants, 2011 Packers) don't even make it.

tuck should've been the 2007 SB MVP. eli probably deserved it for the sack escape and tyree heave alone. that play was all heart. the problem with giving it to tuck was that he was not uniquely dominant, the whole DL was.. shit, jay alford had a big sack in that game..

And they beat some of the best teams ever to win it.

2007 NE
2011 GB and NE

On the other hand, there are seasons when you don't have a truly great team and the team wins. That isn't more impressive than beating an undefeated team with the highest scoring offense ever?

Or beating a team like the 2011 Packers and a QB who had maybe the greatest season ever. Rodgers? 69%. Sick YPA. One of the highest ever. In 16 games he had 45 Tds. Only 6 Ints for the year. Not too long ago a 2 to 1 ratio in TD to Int was excellent. He was at 7.5 to 1 for the year with the highest scoring offense.

Vs Giants? 2 TOs. 4 sacks. 56% Low YPA of 5.5.

They beat a 15 win Packer team with one of the greatest QBs ever. Then beat another elite team in NE.

That shouldn't get you the title worst to win a SB.

every one of your posts is literally trying to argue points against eli.

That he shouldn't have been the MVP.
That the D carried the team.
That anyone not associated with the Giants thinks he's a stiff

Almost everyone else on this thread will acknowledge that other parts played a part in success. The D, coaching, etc. I keep saying that we didn't have the best team and yet we won 2 SB's, so credit needs to go all around.

So my bewilderment keeps hinging on the idea that certain posters seem to spend a shitload of time figuring out arguments against Eli. It goes beyond logic. On a fan board, I'd expect people to probably give too much praise to a guy who has been an Ironman, a 2 time SB winner and MVP, and a guy who says and does the right things. What I wouldn't expect is a disproportionate amount of time spent across numerous threads trying to argue the marginality of the QB.

Like I've said before - it is just bizarre. I get fanboys, since it is a Giants fan board. I absolutely don't get supposed fans who don't give him his due, especially because the whole board knows if Eli went to Rutgers, the exact opposite would happen.

that the people who vote on HOF ballots don't think of him as an elite QB. They think of him as a solid, gutsy, clutch QB who got lucky in two SuperBowls.

He needs another ring to be a lock. Without another ring, I would call him borderline at best to be inducted.

In 2007, maybe the entire DL should have won. Or at least Osi, Strahan, & Tuck, all made big plays. Tuck had more than the others.

that I think he should be inducted. His stats, durability, longevity and two rings have earned his way in, as far as I am concerned. But the people who vote on the HoF ballot mostly don't think that way, from what I gather from the media coverage Eli receives.

The last post is nothing but horseshit. An opinion you have and a few others that I have some kind of agenda against Eli.

Thats BS.

I don't think he "carried the worst team to a title". That's a problem for you. Very strange. Nothing I wrote in that entire thread was a knock on the guy. I happen to believe it was more of a team win and the defense was the primary reason for it. Many agree with it. Many may not. But nothing I posted there should be enough to get you all worked up.

Same is true today.

I dont think a SB MVP should carry the weight it does. Not just Eli. In 2007, we played the greatest offense ever right? The defense won the game. They had exceptional performances from the DL. Somebody there should have won it. But it always goes to the QB. Thats just how it is.

I also don't think that "anyone not associated with the Giants thinks he's a stiff". This is what you do. You run with a comment and form your own story. And you're often wrong (remember going off on my about being Anti-Coughlin. That was more BS because I never wanted the guy fired. Ever.).

In this thread, my reply was to Uconn who stated "outside of fans he's highly regarded". Even you don't agree with that except for your IQ test BS. He isn't highly regarded outside of the NY fan base. And we see it every year while you and others bitch about QB rankings year in and year out.

If I'm wrong on this point, why not address it. Or you can fall back on the Cutler reference or now bringing up Rutgers. Really? That's what you have to offer here?


Again, I didn't rip him yesterday or today. Not agreeing he didnt carry the team or better yet "willed" the team to a title isn't a knock on the player. Got it?

that Eli didn't carry the team argumentation. Frankly, I don't think any one player carries a team.

My problem is that you use post after post to argue and pretty much say that Eli is a marginal QB. My problem is trying to figure out the motivation to do that.

The Cutler and Rutgers references aren't all I have to "offer". It goes to a long-standing and frequent pattern of picking certain favorites and continually expounding on it, which is adorably hilarious since is't that the exact thing you're being a contrarian on regarding Eli?

Most people outside of BBI think Cutler and Rutgers suck ass. But most people outside of BBI don't spend countless threads to make that point. You use countless threads to take the podium to say that Eli really isn't any great shakes.

I agree that Eli gets a lot of praise here. But again - being a Giants board rooting for a guy who is a 2 time SB winner and MVP, an Ironman and a great citizen is understandable. I disagree with those calling Eli the greatest, but not to the point I'm going to write post after post trying to allot losses to him during a SB year.

The problem is you are in the midst of watching one of the greatest Giants ever and frankly, you don't seem to enjoy it. That's disappointing on many levels.

My last comment about this guy was what? 5 years ago? Longer?

Same with Rutgers.

Time to update the material,

I don't agree with it but countless people view him as what Flacco might be 8 years from now or Philip Rivers with 2 rings. He is at best in the second tier of quarterbacks in the minds of many and at worst an "average" and lucky QB. Not my words.

If Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning, and the Rapist all were somehow hall eligible at the same time Eli Manning goes last IMO purely because of perception. But he does get in.

You can't tell the story of the NFL without him, he will have the longevity and the stats as well as the rings. He just might have to wait, which isn't fair but like I said - he gets in.

here is what happened

1. Somebody said he carried the team to a title. The worst team to win ever too.
2. I replied to that comment. I think it's ridiculous actually and mentioned the defense as what I feel the main reason.
3. The comments about the defense lead to an exchange where the same posted called the 2011 defense a joke.
4. I don't agree with that about the D, or that the QB carried the team so I provided some info that I thought would back up my point about the D.

So this is it.

Didn't rip him unless pointing out games where he didn't carry the team is ripping. Or laughing about a comment that he "willed" the team to a title. Or not agreeing that he's "highly regarded outside of fanbase".

While a few here (the ones I'm replying to) are claiming he carried the team, I posted he carried the team in a couple of wins (true). The D showed up in a majority of wins(true). D gave us no shot in a few(true). Eli hurt us in a few(true).

You want to reply about it and try something more than the old standard of BS. Go ahead. Just keep in mind you agree with most of it don't you?

You have too much time on your hands. Give it up.

You hate eli. We get it.

I don't "hate" him so you can try and do better than that, cant you?

I call him a fringe HOF (that many agree with) and I hate him.
I predicted his best year in 2016. I posted here 40 TDs. But I hate him.

Makes sense.

What I really hate is Giant fans blowing smoke up anybody's ass about Eli such as the one man show in 2011 routine. And any post to the contrary, even by some who agree with me, is a shot at Eli.

In comment 13420819 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

here is what happened 1. Somebody said he carried the team to a title. The worst team to win ever too. 2. I replied to that comment. I think it's ridiculous actually and mentioned the defense as what I feel the main reason. 3. The comments about the defense lead to an exchange where the same posted called the 2011 defense a joke. 4. I don't agree with that about the D, or that the QB carried the team so I provided some info that I thought would back up my point about the D. So this is it. Didn't rip him unless pointing out games where he didn't carry the team is ripping. Or laughing about a comment that he "willed" the team to a title. Or not agreeing that he's "highly regarded outside of fanbase". While a few here (the ones I'm replying to) are claiming he carried the team, I posted he carried the team in a couple of wins (true). The D showed up in a majority of wins(true). D gave us no shot in a few(true). Eli hurt us in a few(true). You want to reply about it and try something more than the old standard of BS. Go ahead. Just keep in mind you agree with most of it don't you?

People will point to how shitty the defense was during the regular season, but fail to see that the defense started clicking towards the end of the year. Did Peyton Manning carry the Colts defense, or did the Colts defense get better with Bob Sanders back?

Quote:

Did Peyton Manning carry the Colts defense, or did the Colts defense get better with Bob Sanders back?

So now ask fans who was key to that Colts SB run and see how many come up with Bob Sanders vs. Peyton, because that's basically what KWALL argues against Eli almost every time.

The reality is that the entire Giants team came together for the SB wins, despite not being the best team in the league. And Eli made some incredible plays and throws. While I don't think Eli was the only reason for the 2 SB's, arguing vehemently against it every chance I can seems to be an odd activity on a Giants board.

Especially when we look at other teams, not many people would put much argument if it was said Peyton Manning led the Colts to a SB title or Favre led the Packers to the titles. Somehow if Eli is said to have led the Giants to a title, KWALL feels the need to correct the record.

is a non-starter. Int% is a better stat if you want to pick on Eli (no pun intended). And using that, he is tied at 61 on the career, qualifying list.

There are 21 HOF QBs ranked lower/worse than him including Favre, Bradshaw, Unitas, Staubach, Starr, Fouts, Moon and Kelly. Warner is ranked 60th.

My conclusion is that HOF voters do not factor in absolute or % of interceptions. We shouldnt also.

About Sanders in that run including the stats behind it. They averaged a league worst rush yards/game. He comes back and they cut it in half. And Sanders was the difference. He was the reason the Colts won that SB. He was the MVP of that team and the SB.

My Manning hate is not restricted to Eli.

Isn't that different than carrying the worst team ever, or better yet, willing the team to the title.

It didn't happen with Ei.

Didn't happen with Peyton either. He didn't carry that defense or will Bob Sanders to dominate, but according to some it's always the QB.

In comment 13420147 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

He's always ranked outside of the top 10 at the position by just about every football publication. Other NFL players who vote in that top 100 NFL network have never ranked him high. Today, Ryan Clark was talking about how overrated Romo was and while he was saying it he said he was a tougher guy to prepare for then Eli. Outsid did the NYG fan base he doesn't get recognition as a great QB. Very good at time. Never elite. Durable. With some notable wins. That's the rep he has outside of NY.

That's not entirely true at all. That's one perception in or outside the NYC area but not the only one and I don't think it's the prominent perception. I've run into many fans from other regions who love Eli. Matter of fact most fans outside the area that aren't idiotic say Eli is a lock for the hof. Writers are a different story i think Eli will get in assuming he pads a little more. Some additional playoff success would not hurt. That too will come.

In comment 13420412 chilly460 said:

Quote:

If you look at their numbers at same point in career, Flacco and Eli are fairly similar. If Flacco were to add another SB win, would you consider him a HOF'er? Because, outside Giants fans, there are a lot of people that consider Eli = Flacco type of player.

If flacco leads the ravens to an another insanely clutch postseason tour ending in a super bowl title? Yes he's in but like Eli he will have to wait. No first ballot.

Super Bowls count a lot. For Every season where the qb is "ranked outside the top ten" the super bowl title where the qb earned every yard trumps that crap ten fold.

And please save me this crap that Eli was ranked outside the top ten every year. Not only is this not true it's not a fair way to judge the guy.

You don't have to be a "great" qb to have a great career. I use quotes because great is subjective horse shit. Define great?

Eli has had a great career even if he wasn't ever top 3. Hof takes many things into account. You have to check off a lot of boxes. Eli has checked off enough assuming he can pad just a little bit more and mini shine in January once more. The guy has stamped himself all over the NFL landscape this era. That's hof caliber.

If Eli hadn't been playing out of his mind, it wouldn't have mattered if the defense came together in the final six games of the season (final two of the regular season), because the season would have been over.

Eli and his 6 fourth quarter comebacks (up to that point in the season) are the difference between 7-7 and 1-7 honestly.

THe defense that season had bad stretches, including 4 losses in a row that yielded historically bad results.

Did you see my breakdown of the 2011 season?

He carried the team in 2 wins. Only 2 required more than 25 points to win. Arz and Dal in game 1. Other than that how did his out of mind play get us there?

The Defense was excellent in 6 of the 9 wins and good in one other.. 5 of wins they allowed 17 or less. 20 on the road vs NE. Was that about the QB in those wins?

4 losses in a row was a game where they lost 17-10 to PHI. Very good defensive game.

And the WAS game with 3 games left? Another strong defrensive game. INT on first play of game. 2 INTs on first 3 series. 3YPC. Only allows 189 yards passing. Eli had 3 picks. 2 in our end that led to 10 points.

he derailed the patriots perfect season with a miracle throw and carried one of the weakest teams i ever saw to superbowl victory in 2011 add to that he kept the giants relavant even with a less than stellar receiving core (pre beckham) he threw for some impressive stats if he can get over the hump and win it again it would be impossible for him not to make it imho
they have a defence capable of winning them a superbowl again if the OL can improve enough

In comment 13421100 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

If Eli hadn't been playing out of his mind, it wouldn't have mattered if the defense came together in the final six games of the season (final two of the regular season), because the season would have been over. Eli and his 6 fourth quarter comebacks (up to that point in the season) are the difference between 7-7 and 1-7 honestly. THe defense that season had bad stretches, including 4 losses in a row that yielded historically bad results.

What part of the season were those 4 losses?

the losses dropped us from 6-2 to 6-6.

Quote:

Didn't happen with Peyton either. He didn't carry that defense or will Bob Sanders to dominate, but according to some it's always the QB

"According to some" is pretty much most of the NFL fan base and storylines from the Colts SB, which is ironic because isn't that what you are pointing to as a factor for Eli not being a lock for the HOF?

Why is the opinion from other fans and reporters valid for Eli, but are deemed unworthy in other cases?

Probably because it doesn't suit the agenda of trying to marginalize the guy.

that Coughlin quote:

Quote:

Manning now is one of only five players in NFL history with multiple Super Bowl MVP awards. He joined the guy he got the better of in the big game yet again, Brady, along with Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr and Joe Montana (the only player with three).

Any of those other guys not in the HOF?

I believe that is the best standard for the HoF

And I dont think you can tell the story of the NFL without Eli Manning

The 2 Super Bowl wins were just too consequential since they were over the unbeaten Patriots and the greatest dynasty, HC and QB of all-time.

Not too mention the spectacular runs to get there, the Ice Bowl II win, etc.

Eli became the first QB ever to need a TD ito win n the SB in the final drive and deliver.

Obviously the greatest play of all time in the Tyree play and the incredible Manningham throw.

These weren't just any Super Bowl wins that time will forget. He is etched in SB history.

Plus, Eli's Iron Man streak and the fact he has QBd a premier NFL franchise for so long. We aren't the Tampa Bay Buccaneers here.

There is just no way to tell the history of the NFL without Eli Manning and thats why he should get in.

Of the media

Player A-

2 Super Bowls
2 Super Bowl MVPs
2 SB winning drives
48K yds 320 TD 215 INT
4 Pro Bowls
5 4000 yd seasons
4 30 TD seasons

"Best" season- 4933 yds 29 TD 16 INT wins SB 4-0, MVP, 1219 Yds 9 TD 1 INT. Wins 2 road games and 3 upsets

ESPN HoF rating- 40% chance

Player B-
2 Super Bowls
1 Super Bowl MVP
1 SB winning drive
47K yds 301 TD 160 INT
5 Pro Bowls
4 4000 yd seasons
2 30 TD seasons

"Best" season - 4952 yds 32 TD 9 INT. One and done in playoffs 334 yds 1 TD 1 INT. Upset at home

ESPN HoF rating- 90%

Neither player has achieved a vote for NFL MVP

You really have to split hairs to say one is definately a HoFer and the other isnt.

I would argue that Eli has a slight advantage when looking at the overall facts of the career unbiasedly. He has same SBs. More SB mvps, more YDs, more TDs, more 4000 yd years, more 30 TD years, more important SB wins, has 2 SB winning drives.

In comment 13421333 twostepgiants said:

Quote:

Of the media Player A- 2 Super Bowls 2 Super Bowl MVPs 2 SB winning drives 48K yds 320 TD 215 INT 4 Pro Bowls 5 4000 yd seasons 4 30 TD seasons "Best" season- 4933 yds 29 TD 16 INT wins SB 4-0, MVP, 1219 Yds 9 TD 1 INT. Wins 2 road games and 3 upsets ESPN HoF rating- 40% chance Player B- 2 Super Bowls 1 Super Bowl MVP 1 SB winning drive 47K yds 301 TD 160 INT 5 Pro Bowls 4 4000 yd seasons 2 30 TD seasons "Best" season - 4952 yds 32 TD 9 INT. One and done in playoffs 334 yds 1 TD 1 INT. Upset at home ESPN HoF rating- 90% Neither player has achieved a vote for NFL MVP You really have to split hairs to say one is definately a HoFer and the other isnt. I would argue that Eli has a slight advantage when looking at the overall facts of the career unbiasedly. He has same SBs. More SB mvps, more YDs, more TDs, more 4000 yd years, more 30 TD years, more important SB wins, has 2 SB winning drives.

eli only has 3 30+ TD seasons, not 4. eli also has 55 more INTs and only 19 more TDs than ben, despite having played in 14 more games than him. so eli's career TD/INT ration is a lot higher than ben's, and his career passer rating is a lot lower. also, the steelers won the SB in ben's rookie year, not sure you can hold not making MVP against him, given how terrible eli was through most of his rookie season. eli is definitely more durable than ben that's for sure. i'd think they are ranked about even at this point. i imagine ben will be in the top 10 for a number of the all time records by the time he retires.

In comment 13420187 WideRight said:

Quote:

The HOF is a commercial enterprise that needs to be relevant - continue to draw attention from fans and the media to promote itself. No better way than to prolong some controversy regarding its selection process. Snubbing Eli fits the bill perfectly.

This is false. For one thing, the Pro Football Hall of Fame is an NPO. For another, they really don't need to generate controversy for attention. The institution itself also doesn't choose its own members.

What an odd conspiracy theory.

don't help his case, IMO. But somehow people just seem to overlook it, it's amazing.

I think the way you conduct yourself should play a role among voters to atleast some extent. They went overboard with hating TO and I would hope some of that is used against Roethlisberger, but I doubt it.

Thanks for proving my point about having to ridiculously split hairs between Ben and Eli



In comment 13421371 japanhead said:

Quote:

In comment 13421333 twostepgiants said: Quote: Of the media Player A- 2 Super Bowls 2 Super Bowl MVPs 2 SB winning drives 48K yds 320 TD 215 INT 4 Pro Bowls 5 4000 yd seasons 4 30 TD seasons "Best" season- 4933 yds 29 TD 16 INT wins SB 4-0, MVP, 1219 Yds 9 TD 1 INT. Wins 2 road games and 3 upsets ESPN HoF rating- 40% chance Player B- 2 Super Bowls 1 Super Bowl MVP 1 SB winning drive 47K yds 301 TD 160 INT 5 Pro Bowls 4 4000 yd seasons 2 30 TD seasons "Best" season - 4952 yds 32 TD 9 INT. One and done in playoffs 334 yds 1 TD 1 INT. Upset at home ESPN HoF rating- 90% Neither player has achieved a vote for NFL MVP You really have to split hairs to say one is definately a HoFer and the other isnt. I would argue that Eli has a slight advantage when looking at the overall facts of the career unbiasedly. He has same SBs. More SB mvps, more YDs, more TDs, more 4000 yd years, more 30 TD years, more important SB wins, has 2 SB winning drives. eli only has 3 30+ TD seasons, not 4. eli also has 55 more INTs and only 19 more TDs than ben, despite having played in 14 more games than him. so eli's career TD/INT ration is a lot higher than ben's, and his career passer rating is a lot lower. also, the steelers won the SB in ben's rookie year, not sure you can hold not making MVP against him, given how terrible eli was through most of his rookie season. eli is definitely more durable than ben that's for sure. i'd think they are ranked about even at this point. i imagine ben will be in the top 10 for a number of the all time records by the time he retires.

In comment 13421371 japanhead said:

Quote:

In comment 13421333 twostepgiants said: Quote: Of the media Player A- 2 Super Bowls 2 Super Bowl MVPs 2 SB winning drives 48K yds 320 TD 215 INT 4 Pro Bowls 5 4000 yd seasons 4 30 TD seasons "Best" season- 4933 yds 29 TD 16 INT wins SB 4-0, MVP, 1219 Yds 9 TD 1 INT. Wins 2 road games and 3 upsets ESPN HoF rating- 40% chance Player B- 2 Super Bowls 1 Super Bowl MVP 1 SB winning drive 47K yds 301 TD 160 INT 5 Pro Bowls 4 4000 yd seasons 2 30 TD seasons "Best" season - 4952 yds 32 TD 9 INT. One and done in playoffs 334 yds 1 TD 1 INT. Upset at home ESPN HoF rating- 90% Neither player has achieved a vote for NFL MVP You really have to split hairs to say one is definately a HoFer and the other isnt. I would argue that Eli has a slight advantage when looking at the overall facts of the career unbiasedly. He has same SBs. More SB mvps, more YDs, more TDs, more 4000 yd years, more 30 TD years, more important SB wins, has 2 SB winning drives. eli only has 3 30+ TD seasons, not 4. eli also has 55 more INTs and only 19 more TDs than ben, despite having played in 14 more games than him. so eli's career TD/INT ration is a lot higher than ben's, and his career passer rating is a lot lower. also, the steelers won the SB in ben's rookie year, not sure you can hold not making MVP against him, given how terrible eli was through most of his rookie season. eli is definitely more durable than ben that's for sure. i'd think they are ranked about even at this point. i imagine ben will be in the top 10 for a number of the all time records by the time he retires.

Did Pitt win his rookie year because of him or despite him? He had some horrible playoff games and a bad SB when they won.

Quote:

"According to some" is pretty much most of the NFL fan base and storylines from the Colts SB, which is ironic because isn't that what you are pointing to as a factor for Eli not being a lock for the HOF?

No.

Quote:

Why is the opinion from other fans and reporters valid for Eli, but are deemed unworthy in other cases?

Really? First of all if I happen to agree with the media as a whole on one subject then I must always agree with them? Really?

The post was simply a rebuttal to the comment that Eli is highly regarded outside of the fans. I offered up a few examples to backup my point. Doing this means I must always agree with the general consensus from fans and the media? Interesting way to look and things but It makes no sense at all.

Not being ranked highly by the media, in NFL voting, etc? Isn't that a example of not being "highly regarded".

It something that is discussed nonstop on BBI. You agree with it too, don't you?

Does this "disrespecr" or lack of appreciation from fans and media mean he doesn't deserve the HOF? No it doesn't especially from fans. But it is a clue on how some of the voters may lean or what they want to see before he gets their vote, isn't it?

Right now I say he's a toss up to get in. I think he need to do more to be a lock. Many agree with that here. I don't think it's a knock on the guy.

You think I underrate him? Fine.

I think many overrrate him such as people here claiming he was one man show for the last SB. Why is that such a problem for you?

It's been a few years. The past few days a some here seems to forget what the defense did in 2011. How they overcame a rash of injuries early. Played much better late. Had a guy worthy of DPOY. Dominated some of the best offenses in the NFL. And, in my opinion, it was the defense that was the primary reason for the SB run. That really shouldn't be a problem for you.

Look at the comments. Many forgot about it like that ray of sunshine Greg in VA. They gave up 23 to lowly WAS was his attempt at making a point. When I reply our QB had 3 picks, 2 in our end that lead to 10 points, they only allows 3YPC and 189 yards passing, that is not a rip on the QB. It's a reply to an ignorant comment about a defensive performance.

And there were others. I replied and tried to back my point about the defense. That's all that is going on here.

The defense played really well. JPP was exceptional

But the reason the Giants took off was that Eli to Cruz and Nicks became the dominant unit in the NFL. They don't even get into playoffs without that unit crushing it on latter half of year.

"It's still a Cruz and Nicks game"

Giants O rolled in Atl and GB.

The Giants played an amazing D in San Fran and a very good one in NE.

The 49ers Offense was terrible and the Gronk hobbled Pats were not a powerhouse. This helped the Gisnts D look more dominant then they probably were.

People act like the Giants were the Ravens in 2000 or Broncos in 2015 and the D just rolled each game and the O really did nothing

This is simply not true

It was more true in 2007 .... the Pats scored with 2 mins left. The D lost it. The game was over, nothing the D could do. The Giants O and Eli needed to do something that never occurred in 41 previous SBs. Deliver a game winning TD drive or lose. Other teams drove down and scored but they could have gotten a FG to tie. Eli needed a TD. He got it. Unprecedented in SB history. That fact alone gives him the Bona Fides to claim his rightful share of the ring. Let alone his Ice Bowl 2 performance

The Giants 2011 scoring defense was the lowest of Super Bowl winners, ranking 25th after allowing an average of 25 points per game. The offense put up over 6000 yds and was ranked 8th in league. It simply false that this was a defensive team. They weren't. The D did come around and play very well in playoffs and we don't win without that. But we were an offensive team. They both earned that ring. Eli put up 1200 yds 9 TD and 1 int in 4 games. It can't be credibly claimed that the defense won this ring.

Here is another example with this last post.

Hey twosteps....Just like the Colts defense in 2006, the Giants defense had injury issues early and improved tremendously. They played great ball in the last 7 games of the year (including the playoffs).

But lets talk about season long rankings shall we? That tells the real story of how they shut down 7 teams in a row (Was, Jets, Dal, ATL, GB, SF and NE).

I love that line about the 2007 team.

They allowed 14 points to the HIGHEST SCORING OFFENSE EVER. Patriots averaged 37 a game. They got 14. The D lost that?

Guess who was #2 all time in point scored? The 2011 Packers. They shut them down too.

10th highest scoring offense ever? 2011 Patriots. Again, shut down by the defense.

Which defense in NFL history beat 2 out of the top 10 scoring offense ever?

The 2011 NYG.

is that you dont have to be the greatest QB of all tieme to get into the hall of fame. Hes not Peyton but IMO he doesnt have to be to get into Canton.

Yes, they were spectacular. They played amazing. But the simple fact is, they needed something that had never occurred before in Super Bowl history in order to win. The score was 14-10 NE with under 2 mins to go. There is no changing that fact. As well as the Defense played that day and that playoffs, they were not winning the Super Bowl on that alone.

By my saying that, this does not diminish the defensive effort. But what some are trying to do is give no credit to the offense and Eli Manning in winning a Super Bowl.

In comment 13421506 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

I love that line about the 2007 team. They allowed 14 points to the HIGHEST SCORING OFFENSE EVER. Patriots averaged 37 a game. They got 14. The D lost that? Guess who was #2 all time in point scored? The 2011 Packers. They shut them down too. 10th highest scoring offense ever? 2011 Patriots. Again, shut down by the defense.

The New York Giants football team, offense, defense, special teams, coaching staff won the Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011.

I'm sorry that fact bothers you.

In comment 13421507 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

Which defense in NFL history beat 2 out of the top 10 scoring offense ever? The 2011 NYG.

For one unit to carry a football team to the superbowl and win it. The Ravens had a very dominating defense that carried their 2000 team. It is even rarer for one player to carry a team for any length of time. Any player can have a big game, but not completely carry a team for multiple games.

Troy Aikman didn'the carry his team (he had Emmitt smith and Michael Irvin as well as a defense and special teams), Joe Montana didn't carry his team (he had Roger Craig, Jerry rice and a defense. Tom brady for as great as he is doesn't win without help from other players and his coaches. The list goes on and on.

Eli is no exception, but he is not Trent dilfer either. I can think of many playoff games where eli played an integral part in helping his team advance in the playoffs and win the superbowl twice.

2007 divisional game against the Cowboys- the Cowboys were dominating the defense in the first half. They were eating up the clock, running and passing the ball at will on us and we had no answer. They score to go up 14-7 with less than 1 minute left in the half. Eli takes the ball and completely changes the complexion of that game by driving the team to a touchdown before the half and evening the score.

2007 superbowl against the 18-0 Patriots- the Giants are down 10-14 with under 3 minutes left. No field goals will help and Eli drives the team down the field and scores the winning touchdown.

2011 nfc championship against the 49ers- never seen anyone take the beating that eli took that night and yet he kept getting up and threw for over 300 yards and 2 td's to help his team advance to the superbowl.

2011 superbowl against the patriots- again Giants trail 15-17 with under 4 minutes left in the game and again eli drives his team with an incredible pass to Manningham down the sideline to a game deciding touchdown to win the game.

As far as superbowl mvp goes, that is voted by the media (80%) who I am sure some of those voters are hof voters as well and by fans (20%), so they weren`t slighting eli or giving all of the credit to the defense.

Bottom line is this. Eli has the hardware, he has the stats and he has lead his team. When it's all said and done he will get into canton. I am sure he will be debated heavily and he will have his detractors, but it will be very hard to argue his accomplishments.

this many times:

Quote:

You think I underrate him? Fine. I think many overrrate him such as people here claiming he was one man show for the last SB. Why is that such a problem for you?

Like I said several times, often on threads like these - I get why people overrate him. He's a great Giant and we are on a Giants fan board. He's a 2 time SB winner and MVP, an Ironman and a good citizen. He's the face of the team.

What I don't get or understand is the need, on nearly every thread discussing Eli, to minimize what he's done, marginalize his career, and deflect his success.

You seem to think the people saying Eli "led" the team are wildly incorrect, but then you go to the opposite end of the spectrum, which makes you exactly the same. You expect those that are championing Eli to see your point, but you don't give a flying shit to see the counterpoint, and on a Giants board, it is strange, if not outright bizarre.

He has a chance to pass more people on the list. He should be in.

As based on their career right now, I think it's not intellectually honest to say one had a HoF career and the other didn't. There is no traditional separator between the two.

Unless one of them wins a 3rd Super Bowl or an NFL MVP, or retires/injured and stunts their all-time stats.

By game

Eli- 240 yds 1.5 TD and 1.0 Int

Ben- 251 yds 1.6 TD and .86 int

Playoffs-
Ben- 239 yds 1.25 TD and 1.15 int
Eli- 234 yds 1.5 TD and .75 Int



Remember, it's not about who is the "better" player

But is one a HoFer and the other not?

To say Ben is in but Eli isn't is pretty much establishing Ben as the bottom of the HoF barrel and Eli as the top of the non- HoF QB

The issue I had here was about him carrying a shit show to the title.

I also believe the defense was the main factor for both SB wins.

Defending that view requires pointing out some of the holes in the other side especially when many of the comments about the defense weren't true.. How is that any different than the posters on the other side making comments about the defense?

And then you take that and say I have a problem with something else.

Somebody saying a QB "lead a team" vs "carrying the worst SB winner ever" is a lot different isn't it?

In comment 13421765 twostepgiants said:

Quote:

As based on their career right now, I think it's not intellectually honest to say one had a HoF career and the other didn't. There is no traditional separator between the two. Unless one of them wins a 3rd Super Bowl or an NFL MVP, or retires/injured and stunts their all-time stats. By game Eli- 240 yds 1.5 TD and 1.0 Int Ben- 251 yds 1.6 TD and .86 int Playoffs- Ben- 239 yds 1.25 TD and 1.15 int Eli- 234 yds 1.5 TD and .75 Int Remember, it's not about who is the "better" player But is one a HoFer and the other not? To say Ben is in but Eli isn't is pretty much establishing Ben as the bottom of the HoF barrel and Eli as the top of the non- HoF QB

both are HOF caliber imo

Quote:

What I don't get or understand is the need, on nearly every thread discussing Eli, to minimize what he's done, marginalize his career, and deflect his success.

That is an enormous exaggeration.

A few of the idiots here may agree with you but it is not true. Not close.

at all. I'm not talking about every thread - just the ones about Eli.

You say a few of the "idiots" might agree, but more often than not it is guys like Uconn, Britt, Go Terps, jcn, djm and others who see it.

If you think those guys are idiots, then it proves my point fairly well.

an "Eli - HOF debate" thread and I was going thru withdrawls.

This one didn't disappoint me either as all the usual arguments come out. Just a couple of quick points and I will let the stat-mongers, Eli-bashers and lovers fight it out.

As someone who travels nearly 50 weeks a year to any/all US cities, Eli is largely not considered a HOF by NFL fans across the country. And while I vehemently disagree with that view, it is what it is but I usually just end the debate with the following statement...

QBs that play for over a decade or so with the same team, and during that career happen to be on the WINNING END of a few superbowls are a lock for the HOF. Lock...

In comment 13421801 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

an "Eli - HOF debate" thread and I was going thru withdrawls. This one didn't disappoint me either as all the usual arguments come out. Just a couple of quick points and I will let the stat-mongers, Eli-bashers and lovers fight it out. As someone who travels nearly 50 weeks a year to any/all US cities, Eli is largely not considered a HOF by NFL fans across the country. And while I vehemently disagree with that view, it is what it is but I usually just end the debate with the following statement... QBs that play for over a decade or so with the same team, and during that career happen to be on the WINNING END of a few superbowls are a lock for the HOF. Lock...

Yes, I simply add the adjective, 'immortal.' (lock)..What ISN'T an immortal lock is first ballot..Not sure when he gets in, but he gets in.

When guys like Strahan have to wait, then there are always agendas at play that you cannot control in a given ballot.

but if they agree with your comment I would say they're wrong about it just as you are. And a few of those names, while some of our better posters here, are also some of the over the top Eli fans.

1 of 2 of them, like you, also think I have a thing against Beckham too. That's wrong as well and its based only on my reaction to his thing with Norman. I don't go pro-giant, it means I have a problem with our player. That isn't the case.

This board is full of eli comments and threads. Very few do I comment. There have been 2 recently. I made a comment to Terps about his claim that Eli carried the worst team ever to a SB win. Again, part of the reply was pointing out that maybe he's overestimating Eli's contribution.

The really bizarre thing to me is how some get so upset about it and have to reach back and pull out the Cutler reference on any unfavorable comment I make about Eli.

Yes I liked Cutler a lot coming out of college. And posted here he was better than Eli early in his NFL career. When he was on the block, I thought CHI got a deal for him. It was wrong. They did not. The guy didn't improve.

10 years ago, when this was discussed here. I said I would trade Eli for Cutler. As well as Rodgers and Palmer too.

Isn't it time to find something new?

You used to take shots to me about Palmer (especially after the Oak trade). Same kind of stuff. I liked Palmer better than Eli and it caused some kind of problem for you.

It's OK to think players from other teams are better than some on your team isn't it? On a site where football is discussed, it should be OK to post it too.

In comment 13421801 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

an "Eli - HOF debate" thread and I was going thru withdrawls. This one didn't disappoint me either as all the usual arguments come out. Just a couple of quick points and I will let the stat-mongers, Eli-bashers and lovers fight it out. As someone who travels nearly 50 weeks a year to any/all US cities, Eli is largely not considered a HOF by NFL fans across the country. And while I vehemently disagree with that view, it is what it is but I usually just end the debate with the following statement... QBs that play for over a decade or so with the same team, and during that career happen to be on the WINNING END of a few superbowls are a lock for the HOF. Lock...

The "same team" qualifier narrows the field to a set that eliminates the conversation. There are very few QBs that have won multiple SBs. There are also very few QBs that have played for the same team for a decade or more. The intersection of that is a very small group. But nothing about it defines HOF-worthiness, especially the same team part.

Eli is right there with Jim Plunkett, IMO. With the necessary statistical adjustment for era and style of play, I think they're very similar candidates. Plunkett isn't in. Eli will wait a long time too.

What Giants fans don't want to recognize is that Eli has never been the top QB in the sport. He hasn't even been top 5 at any point in his career. That's really not HOF-caliber. He's been incredibly durable. He had two amazingly clutch playoff runs. And aside from those two factors, he's a stat compiler who has been inconsistent through much of his career and has a last name that begs comparison to an all-time great, and entered the league with an air of entitlement surrounding him and his refusal to play for the Chargers.

I don't think he's anywhere near the lock that many Giants fans think he is. The HOF is about perception as much as anything else. And outside of Giants fans, I don't get the sense that he's perceived as a HOF QB, even with 2 SBs and 2 SB MVPs.

me on this:

Quote:

1 of 2 of them, like you, also think I have a thing against Beckham too. That's wrong as well and its based only on my reaction to his thing with Norman. I don't go pro-giant, it means I have a problem with our player. That isn't the case.

Beckham is a polarizing guy and I've always seen why people give him shit. The only time I ever come down against people ranting against Beckham is if they think he should be cut "for the good of the team" and idiotic shit like that.

I'm not against criticizing of the team. There are a lot of people here who do it and they have points. Where I get irritated is if it is the blindly moronic, "Fire Person X", "Cut Player X" comments, or if it is a continual agenda against a player or a coach. I'm not going to rant at somebody for saying Eli isn't the best QB in the league, but I'm probably going to do it if he's called a game manager or a primary issue with the team.

But you seem to be perplexed why I'm ranting, while you're doing the same thing - just on the opposite end of the argument. You're against over-exaggeration just like I am.

Plunkett was a journeyman 32 yr old QB who was on bench and came in during season and helmed Raiders to a SB. He was cut by the 49ers.

Eli has been a franchise QB since day 1 on multiple massive Contracts.

Plunkett has a career 72-72 record. Eli has a career 116-95 record as a starter.

Plunkett has 194 Int to 163 TDs. Yes more int then TDs

Eli has 320 TD to 201 Int. That's slot more TDs then int.

Plunkett never made a Pro Bowl. Manning made 5.

The comparison is not even close even accounting for era.

online that genuinely think the ridiculous and laughable comp to Plunkett holds real weight tells you a lot about what the narrative/perception around him is.

It's not fair nor accurate, but neither of those things really matter, unfortunately.

outside of 2 suberbowl runs where he played out of his mind, and 2 SB MVPs, eli is just some "stat compiler?" so being 7th all time in 4th quarter comebacks is just some bullshit meaningless stat? coz that stat tells me that eli is one of 10 most clutch QBs ever. i know he's thrown a lot of picks but come on now.

In comment 13422084 japanhead said:

Quote:

outside of 2 suberbowl runs where he played out of his mind, and 2 SB MVPs, eli is just some "stat compiler?" so being 7th all time in 4th quarter comebacks is just some bullshit meaningless stat? coz that stat tells me that eli is one of 10 most clutch QBs ever. i know he's thrown a lot of picks but come on now.

As far as I know, none of us are HOF voters. I'm just voicing my opinion as to what the perception of Eli is outside of the Giants fanbase. My point about the stat compiling is just that I don't think the counting stats will carry much weight when adjusted for era. I predict that they'll be treated like Blyleven's pitching stats were in baseball.

And the comebacks require context, don't they? You need to be losing in order to stage a comeback.

All I'm saying is that Eli is not nearly as highly regarded by the general public or the general football community as he is by Giants fans. His HOF candidacy is no sure thing, IMO.

In comment 13421958 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

Eli is right there with Jim Plunkett, IMO.

I am filing this one away into "My Favorite BBI comments" folder. Thanks for the submission...

from this era you have Peyton, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers as the 4 most decorated and deserving HoF candidates. That's only 4 guys over the span of 15 or so years. The rest of the bunch is led by Eli and Roethlisberger, IMO.

The HoF has 8 QB's who played in the 90's (Favre, Moon, Marino, Montana, Young, Aikman, Kelly, Elway), 9 if you count Warner which you should since he won the MVP and Superbowl that season.

So if 9 QB's over a 15 year period made it, and its even more of a passing league now, why wouldn't atleast 6 or 7 get in now over that next 15 year span?

In comment 13422159 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 13422084 japanhead said: Quote: outside of 2 suberbowl runs where he played out of his mind, and 2 SB MVPs, eli is just some "stat compiler?" so being 7th all time in 4th quarter comebacks is just some bullshit meaningless stat? coz that stat tells me that eli is one of 10 most clutch QBs ever. i know he's thrown a lot of picks but come on now. As far as I know, none of us are HOF voters. I'm just voicing my opinion as to what the perception of Eli is outside of the Giants fanbase. My point about the stat compiling is just that I don't think the counting stats will carry much weight when adjusted for era. I predict that they'll be treated like Blyleven's pitching stats were in baseball. And the comebacks require context, don't they? You need to be losing in order to stage a comeback. All I'm saying is that Eli is not nearly as highly regarded by the general public or the general football community as he is by Giants fans. His HOF candidacy is no sure thing, IMO.

i understand your point about stats and different eras when it comes to things like total career passing yards, or pass attempts/completions, but when it comes to a stat like 4th quarter comebacks, it's ridiculous for you to devalue him based on the fact that "the only reason he had to come from behind was because the team was losing." that is idiotic.

the top 6 all time in 4th quarter comebacks are: peyton, brady, marino, untias, elway, montana. eli is tied with favre (who had a 19 year long career) for 7th all time. with 2 more 4th quarter comebacks in his career he passes montana on the all time list. that is absolutely a relevant stat that HoF voters will consider. it's basically the "how money is this QB when the chips are down" stat.