Eli Manning HOF viability

Maybe we should get this out the way... are you implying that Eli shouldn't be considered for the HoF? You've yet to come flat out and say that (at least on this thread) so I'm just wondering.

.

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13420462 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 13420445 KWALL2 said: Quote: It's not isolated to a few here and there. Its not one year or a few. t's most of them over a long period of time and these are the guys who happen to vote for the HOF. So is he highly regarded outside of fans? Is it the truly informed that consider him elite and HOF worthy? I realize you consider yourself part of this group. Outside of you, who are these people? Depends on what you believe. The NFL is a media circus, any and everyone fighting for a piece to stay relevant. Take Sal Palantonio. Despite being an eagles fan and saying what he does to appease that fan base, I have a hard time believeing he thinks Eli has an average NFL career. It just doesn't make sense. His body of work, his iron man streak, his 2 historic SB wins, and his philanthropy makes him a shoe in. He's a true ambassador to the sport. Not sure what else you are looking for.

You see... I think he gets in (again, just not first ballot) but I don't know if he's a 'shoo-in' like some are stating and that's because I agree with KWALL that outside of Giants fans and a few media members, Eli's just never been viewed as an elite, high-level QB (except for maybe 2008). Do I/we think he should get in? Yeah. But what we think doesn't really matter does it?

The resume speaks for itself, and they'd have a lot of explaining to do keeping a player with that resume out.

I doubt it would though.

you are likely putting way too much stock in what people say who work for networks that want ratings. Boomer and Carton is a perfect example. Two blowhards who behind closed doors without the mic on probably have a ton of respect for Eli.

His resume now is good enough. If he plays for another 3 years without too much drop off he's going to end his career with over 55,000 yards and has a shot at 400 TDs.

He's getting in.

Considered? Yes.

When this came up last year, I said he still needed a few great years to get in or a big team year( and I thought he would get it last season as I stated I expected his best year ever)

He did not get it. Last year did not help his case.

He's a fringe HOF at this point.

I prefer HOF guys to have a few dominant years. At least a few where they were considered the best or close to the best at their positions. He hasn't had them.

My point here was about his rep outside of the fans. I don't think he's highly regarded. That's my point here. Nothing about my opinion on the player. It's my opinion on how he's perceived outside of NYG fan base. as a guy who does follow the NFL closely(not just the Giants), I don't see others with a "high regard" for Eli.

The interesting thing is how stating that on BBI upsets a few here.

I'm wrong? Others have a high regard for him? I'd like to see it.

.

In comment 13420477 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

you are likely putting way too much stock in what people say who work for networks that want ratings. Boomer and Carton is a perfect example. Two blowhards who behind closed doors without the mic on probably have a ton of respect for Eli. His resume now is good enough. If he plays for another 3 years without too much drop off he's going to end his career with over 55,000 yards and has a shot at 400 TDs. He's getting in.

Probably? But what if the feelings they say on-air is exactly how they feel about Eli?

Again... I agree with you that he SHOULD get in. But I can see KWALL's point that it may be tougher than we Giants fans think it should be because of the general perception of Eli outside the Giants fanbase.

but putting so much stock in what talking heads say is a poor argument.

Take Romo. Very good QB and he's loved by the media. I guarantee he doesn't get in which will have nothing to do with how praised he is whenever you turn on the NFL network or espn.

Eli is goofy, unflashy, and gives boring interviews. That's why he isn't "liked" but he's absolutely respected, IMO.

it's just something I happen to believe. Ryan Clarke doesn't vote for the HoF, neither does Carton. I really don't care what those guys say or think.

In comment 13420478 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

Considered? Yes. When this came up last year, I said he still needed a few great years to get in or a big team year( and I thought he would get it last season as I stated I expected his best year ever) He did not get it. Last year did not help his case. He's a fringe HOF at this point. I prefer HOF guys to have a few dominant years. At least a few where they were considered the best or close to the best at their positions. He hasn't had them. My point here was about his rep outside of the fans. I don't think he's highly regarded. That's my point here. Nothing about my opinion on the player. It's my opinion on how he's perceived outside of NYG fan base. as a guy who does follow the NFL closely(not just the Giants), I don't see others with a "high regard" for Eli. The interesting thing is how stating that on BBI upsets a few here. I'm wrong? Others have a high regard for him? I'd like to see it.

I'm almost 100% with you on this post KWALL (although I think I believe he has a slightly better HOF resume than it appears you do). But I agree with you that he's straddling the fence and isn't the 'shoo-in' that some think he is. I actually think his name and personality will actually HELP him get in, whereas they've always seemed to hurt him during his playing days.

What stock am I putting into any rankings. It's simply an example hat he is. It highly regarded outside of fans.

You said he is. If it isn't the media ( and these rankings aren't limited to a few blowhards) don't work for you then what are you talking about?

You will find many opinions outside of fans. Doesn't this give you a feel for how he's perceived? ( yeah I know, if it isn't pro-Eli it's either click bait ofr another uniformed opinion)

First search result, from ESPN, August 2016.

Quote:

Eli Manning might make the Hall of Fame, which is going to infuriate a lot of people. On numbers alone, Eli shouldn't be there. He has made four Pro Bowls, and while he has put together a very nice second peak after the arrival of Ben McAdoo, nobody who watches Manning on a week-to-week basis thinks that he looks like a Hall of Famer by any stretch of the imagination. The basis for his candidacy, then, is winning two Super Bowl MVP awards in victories over the Patriots, and Manning will get bonus credit for beating the previously undefeated 2007 Patriots. (The memories of Eli nearly throwing the game away with an interception on the play before the Helmet Catch have already mostly disappeared.) The list of guys who have won Super Bowl MVP two or more times includes Terry Bradshaw, Tom Brady, Joe Montana and Bart Starr. They're all in (or will be in) the Hall of Fame. I'd also argue that Eli doesn't belong on a tier with those passers because of what they all did in the other hundreds of games they each played over the course of their respective careers. I wouldn't vote for him, but some will. 40 percent.

There are a lot of guys in that I would put in to HOF. He might make it but before last season I thought he had to do more. Last year he did not. Right now I think he's a toss up (more likely not) to get in but I wouldn't bet on it.

And I feel the same way (toss up) but believe he will (and should) get in.

I just don't think the first ballot is realistic at all. Matter of fact, I can see him waiting a few years.

But let's look at some numbers, shall we?

QB X: 165 games, 32,942 yards, 165 TDs/141 INTs, 61.5 completion%, 7.0 YPA

QB Y: 201 games, 48,218 yards, 320 TDs/215 INTs, 59.7 completion%, 7.1 YPA

QB Z: 208 games, 49,325 yards, 291 TDs/233 INTs, 58.4 completion%, 7.2 YPA.


You've probably guessed Y is Eli Manning. X and Z are HOF QBs Troy Aikman and Warren Moon.

but I'm pretty sure Aikman and Moon kick some ass on the Twitterverse.....

I don't read espn and won't now. I really don't know what to tell you. I generally don't buy into what's printed for the masses, and that isn't specific to the Giants or teams I root for.

and the goal posts will move again.

No one playing Dallas in the '90s started their defensive meetings by saying "We gotta find a way to stop Troy Aikman!" Guy played with a dominant defense and running game, behind possibly the greatest OL in NFL history, and yet THOSE stats put him in Canton?

I stand by my opinion from the other day that he's the most overrated QB in NFL history.

In comment 13420528 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

and the goal posts will move again.

That's true to a certain extent, but in the case of Aikman and Moon it's not as if they played in the '60s. Both of them were still in the league only a few years before Eli first took the field. The real point at which you need to allow for eras is 1978, when pass coverage rules changed dramatically.

In comment 13420533 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 13420528 Britt in VA said: Quote: and the goal posts will move again. That's true to a certain extent, but in the case of Aikman and Moon it's not as if they played in the '60s. Both of them were still in the league only a few years before Eli first took the field. The real point at which you need to allow for eras is 1978, when pass coverage rules changed dramatically.

You don't have to convince me.... I know that.

Eli's career INT total might hurt him, as he well likely be in the Top 10 all time for INTs, and it plays into the narrative the he's this inconsistent, turnover-prone doofus. But Favre, Marino and Peyton are all in the Top 10 all time for career INTs and no one uses that statistical category to denigrate them.

Brees is the only active QB with more INTs than Eli (220 v. 215), but Brees only has one season with 20+ INTs (Eli has 3), and Brees has played 32 more games than Eli. And of course Brees has thrown for 30+ TDs for the last 9 seasons (40+ in 2 of those seasons). Eli only has 2 seasons where he has 30+ TDs. Clearly Eli is no Brees, but Brees is a top 3 all time guy.

Rivers and Roethlisberger will also be in the Top 10 for some of the all-time records when they hang em up too, not sure how that will reflect on Eli, but my point in posting where he currently ranks in the all time categories shows that he's objectively been very prolific throughout his career. On those numbers alone, to contrast whatever douchey ESPN analyst wrote, he DOES have the numbers, and he has them NOW.

Where the metal meets the meat, as Hal Moore says in We Were Soldiers....

Aikman: 16 games, 3849 yards, 23 TD/17 INT, 63.7%
Moon: 10 games, 2870, 17/14, 64.3%
Manning: 12 games, 2815, 18/9, 60.5%

eli actually has 3 seasons with 30+ TDs.. my mistake.

If anyone can point me to a season in which a QB willed a weaker team than the 2011 Giants to a championship, I'd appreciate it, because I can't think of one.

Let's talk intangibles that accentuate the statistics.

1st, Roethlisberber and Rivers....

The 2004 Rookie Quarterback Class is the most prolific since 1983, and all three of those guys are in: Elway, Marino, and Kelly.

Between Manning, Roethlisberger, and Rivers have combined for:

4 Superbowl Championships
2 Superbowl MVP's
5 Superbowl Appearances
6 Conference Championship Game Appearances
20 Combined Playoff Appearances
25-16 Combined Playoff Record
All three will finish in the top 10 in most major passing statistical categories

That's the Quarterback class of 2004. Pretty damn good.

2nd, The Manning name as T-bone alluded to.

The Manning Brothers combined for 4 Championships 3 Superbowl MVP's
They also won Championships and MVP's in back to back seasons. That will likely NEVER happen again.

3rd, The Iron Man Streak

4th, Leading two game winning drives and being part of two of the most unique plays in Superbowl history, including arguably the greatest which will undoubtedly be still playing in 50 years in highlight reels with the Immaculate Reception, etc....

Those are just storylines in addition to the numbers.

He's got the whole package.

In comment 13420549 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

If anyone can point me to a season in which a QB willed a weaker team than the 2011 Giants to a championship, I'd appreciate it, because I can't think of one.

KWALL already dismissed his 2011 season from being anything really special the other day.

these threads are just a sounding board for people who like to minimize Eli's accomplishments. By the metrics others have gotten in, but the stats Eli will have when he retires, and for the postseason success Eli has had, he'll easily get into the Hall. 1st ballot or not is inconsequential - he'll be in Canton.

The rest of the discussion is usually just mental gymnastics trying to promote the idea that the rest of the universe looks at him like Trent Dilfer.

I'm still wondering why some supposed fans of the team go to such lengths to minimize Eli. Hell, Phil Simms isn't in the Hall, and we don't discuss him not being there because of the impression of ESPN. We discuss him not being there because of his numbers.

I'm just waiting for the day Rivers comes up for the hall (and probably makes it) and you won't hear a peep from the guy who regularly scans Twitter on how people look at him outside of SD.

It is used to push some strange agenda that saying Eli Manning is good actually isn't good - even as a Giants fan. Simply bizarre.

I get that, and it's kind of funny because I'm one of the less Eli-crazy people here. I do think Giants fans tend to overrate him. He's had a unique career - I can't think of another QB whose overall performances varied so wildly yet also played at such a high level in the playoffs.

same TD/INT ratio, same yards/attempt, etc. etc. He's tracking along the same trajectory. The only difference at this point is the number of games played and the stats that go along with that: 298 starts for Favre, 199 for Eli. If Eli plays another 3-4 years even with the 'poor' numbers he put up last year, he's a lock.

In comment 13420594 BH28 said:

Quote:

same TD/INT ratio, same yards/attempt, etc. etc. He's tracking along the same trajectory. The only difference at this point is the number of games played and the stats that go along with that: 298 starts for Favre, 199 for Eli. If Eli plays another 3-4 years even with the 'poor' numbers he put up last year, he's a lock.

Favre was a three time league MVP, but the rest I agree with.

despite ups and downs..I have no vested interest in WHAT ballot he gets in on..If he did nothing more than those two all-time playoff runs(not just the ultimate SBs, one of which was as tremendous underdogs to an all-time great team(2007), he'd have a decent shot to make the HOF, given how asterisk worthy those runs were..No one has come close to such a run imo..However, his cumulative stats that HOF voters splooge over will be there AS WELL, so THAT is what makes him an ultimate lock imo, regardless of when that enshrinement occurs..That's my two cents..

Wrong. In fact what you posted was nothing but a lie.

I didn't agree with the ridiculous comment about Eli carrying the worst team to ever win a SB. I see in your view, if you don't agree it was a one man show and he carried the misfits to the championship you are dismissing his accomplishments that year? Ok. Typical BBI right there. Try again. Go back and read it and you'll see your full of it.

Wow Greg....now he willed them to the championship. What a bunch of fan BS that is.

In the last 7 games, pretty much all must win games, the defense shut down all of them and that included the best offenses.. That was all about the will of the QB!

That is only one example. It was part of my reply to the he's "highly regarded outside of the fans" comment. I don't think that is true at all.

Still waiting for your reply on that one. Who are these people?

FMIc says it's the truly informed. Is that it?

winning 2 superbowl MVP's is not a coincidence. He's in.

also no one list the NFL man of the year award, which won't hurt.

beat Brady, and did it twice .... which will get bigger as the years go by.

Always have been, always will be.

First of all, it was the final six games - seven games would include a game in which the defense allowed 23 to the sorryass Redskins and Rex fucking Grossman.

Second of all - they barely squeaked into the playoffs at all because the defense was dogshit for the vast majority of the season, along with the running game. The only reason they were even in a position to have a chance at the SB is because Eli won some games early in the season that they had no business winning.

Third of all, if the Giants weren't the weakest champion, tell me who is? You want to give all the credit to the defense that allowed 400 fucking points that season? Are you fucking kidding me?

I'm not arguing with what you said. You have a right to that opinion. I just don't think he's a lock mainly based on how he's seemingly been perceived throughout his career and it's a mystery why some are not understanding this. Do I think he'll get in? Yes. Do I think he deserves to get in? Yes. Do I think that he'll be voted in? Eh... yeah... I think so... but am not 100% sure he will.

Eli's HOF vote will be one of the more interesting votes in the history of the HOF because whether some of us want to admit it or not, he's barely been perceived as a top 10 (let alone top 5) QB in the league during his career (rightly or wrongly) and I'm with KWALL that I generally would prefer a guy who gets inducted to be in that conversation at least through part of his career.

why some of y'all are getting so upset over this discussion.

All I've done is state the facts. And IMO, the facts say he's in until somebody can pull up a similar resume of a player at that position that is not in.

I also believe when it's all said and done, the final book will completely obliterate the perception.

And as we all know, perception doesn't equal reality in most cases. I believe that to be true here, as well.

Vs the redskins Eli had 3 picks including 2 in our end that resulted in 10 points. The defense also started the game with 2 picks on the first 3 drives. Allowed only 3ypc for the game and 180 yards passing. In other words a hell of a defensive game.

But go ahead.

"Always a Clown" huh? What is your rep here?

In 2011 regular season the defense had some awful games. The story is hkw they played late and in the playoffs.

However, in 5 of the 9 wins they allowed 17 or less. In the win vs NE on the road they only allowed 20 (the lowest point total for Brady in 5 years at home).

6 out of 9 wins we're strong defensive games

All of the playoff games they were exceptional.

My point, that seems to hurt the sensitive guys like you, was the 2011 was a team effort. Not a one man show. And based on the play of the defense late it was not the worst team to win a SB.

I will grant the defense came together for the final run...But that was a mediocre team for most of the year. Eli dragged the team to some wins....they would have likely finished 7-9 or worse without his great play at the end of games. And Eli was great in each of the four playoff games. With the SF game probably being his signature game in my opinion.

That team is in the discussion for the worst team to ever win a Super Bowl.

at what point in Eli's career have the Giants been the best team in the league?

How many SB's do they have?

Don't care if it is the D, Eli, Coughlin or whomever carried the team - Eli has 2 SB rings and 2 SB MVP's on teams that weren't the best in the league.

And since we put so much stock in what outsiders think, Eli has 2 Super Bowl MVP's, not Strahan or a member of the D.

But like I said above, the whole discussion is sort of just a platform for some people to come out of the woodwork to once again talk about Eli being "meh".

I Googled "Worst Teams To Ever Win Superbowl". The 2011 Giants, as well at the 2007 Giants, are on most lists.

The first two games were disasters for the defense. They went 10-4 after that. Then, in 2008, a mostly unchanged team dominated the league for much of the season before L'Affair Plaxico. Not that they needed validation, but 2008 should have laid to rest any talk about them being a mediocre team.

The 2011 Giants, on the other hand, missed the playoffs in both the preceding and following seasons.

In which 2011 wins did the QB carry the team?

You have ARZ and first DAL win. Eli lit them up in those 2 wins and carried the team. 7 more regular season wins. He didn't carry them in these games.

5 of the wins the defense held to 17 or less.

Vs NE they allowed 20 but also got 3 turnovers from Brady including one at the NE 10 (next play 10 yard TD run by Jacobs). Did Eli carry the team here? He had the late TD drive to win it. Great finish. Late in the 3rd, he also threw an INT from the NE 5 in a tied game.

The other win was 27-24 vs Buf. Webster 2 picks. Bradshaw had 3 rushing TDs. Eli had a strong game. 290 yards and no picks. He was a big factor in the win but didn't carry the team.

Getting the to 9 wins was not about a QB carrying a team.

In 2 of the losses (NO & GB, both 13 win teams, 2 best offenses in the NFL avg close to 35/game) the defense gave us no chance. 2 losses. Vs DAL the first time, Romo lit us up but Eli carried the team to a big win.

Eli hurt us in some of the losses such as 3 INTs vs WAS, the 17-10 loss to PHI, and the 4 TOs vs SEA.

One thing you see when reviewing the play by play is JPP had a lot of 3rd down sacks in 2011. He kicked ass.