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New York Giants 2017 NFL Draft Preview: RUNNING BACK

Sy'56 : 4/10/2017 9:52 am
WHERE THEY STAND

After a solid but unspectacular three year tenure with NYG, the team cut ties with Rashad Jennings. The league’s 29th ranked rushing attack can at least be partially blamed on the offensive line, but the talent running with the ball in their hands wasn’t inspiring to say the least. Paul Perkins flashed in the second half of his rookie season and Shane Vereen averaged almost 5 yards per carry in his limited opportunities. Shaun Draughn and Orleans Darkwa are solid bodies to have on the depth chart. This team lacks power presence in the backfield.



TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS

1 – Dalvin Cook – 5’10/210 - Florida State: 83

Summary: Junior entry. All time leading rusher in Florida State history. 2nd all time in the ACC conference. Unanimous All American in 2016. Cook is a dangerous threat to take it to the house each time he touches the ball. He is explosive in and out of traffic, runs hard through contact, and shows the on-field IQ you want out of an every down ball carrier. His potential his as high as any player in this class. He is an immediate upgrade to most starting running backs in the league.

*Ignore the naysayers that want to tell you he didn’t have a good workout and lacks the ability to be an elite back. Cook was almost always the best athlete in the field when he had the ball in his hand in college, period. The concern with potentially drafting him at 23 if he is there however, is two-fold. One, he is a similar styled-back to Paul Perkins. More talented, yes. But very similar and it’s nice to have some diversity back there. In addition, and more important, is the fact there are some off field concerns with him. He’s had a few run-ins and while nobody can point to a conviction or anything concrete, he isn’t clean away from the field. That said, there is a very small list of players I would take in front of Cook.

Upside Pro Comparison: Jamaal Charles – FA



2 - Christian McCaffrey – 5’11/202 - Stanford: 80

Summary: Junior entry. Son of former NFL wide receiver Ed McCaffrey and comes from a family full of high-level athletes. Consensus All American in 2015 after setting an NCAA all time single season record with 3,854 all purpose yards. Saw a slight dip in production in 2016, but still finished second in the country in yards from scrimmage per game. McCaffrey will specialize as a third down back type and return specialist in the NFL. He is as dangerous as it gets in the open field and brings the versatility to fill multiple roles for any offense. He may be limited as an inside runner, but otherwise McCaffrey is a threat that defenses need to think about every time he is on the field.

*I don’t like using the term “sure-thing” too often, but I’m confident McCaffrey is going to be a very productive player in the league. His receiving skill set is better than most of the wide receivers and the ability in space is some of the best we have in this class. The lineage and football IQ helps assure that as well. Whoever drafts him needs to make sure they aren’t going to turn him in to a 20 carry, inside the tackles type back. That’s not what he is. A creative playcaller and scheme can make a Pro Bowler out of this kid in year one.

Upside Pro Comparison: Dion Lewis - NE



3 – Leonard Fournette – 6’0/240 – LSU: 80

Summary: Junior entry. After a 2015 1st Team All American season, Fournette came back down to earth partially because of an ankle problem that was pretty much there all year. Running against loaded boxes behind a below average offensive line, his 2016 did not go well to say the least. Fournette has freakish tools and ability, but there are questions revolving around his skill set, quickness, and passion for the game in addition to the lower body injuries. His size and speed will be NFL ready week one, but there is a large gap between his floor and ceiling. Risky prospect from a few different angles.

*Coming in to the year, everyone I knew had Fournette atop this list and in some cases, atop the overall class. I never saw it and as a matter of fact always viewed him as a borderline first rounder. Don’t get me wrong, I still think he is a quality prospect with the upside of being an immediate force. However too often I’ve seen him being that guy that doesn’t create enough on his own, lacks quick change of pace and direction in the backfield, and a guy that doesn’t always play to his true power potential. Fournette just seemed like a guy that didn’t have the consistent motor and effort. Was he protecting himself? Maybe. But I won’t have him as a top 20 player in my class.

Upside Pro Comparison: Carlos Hyde - SF




4 – Kareem Hunt – 5’11/216 – Toledo: 80

Summary: Four year contributor and two time 1st Team All MAC back that leaves Toledo as the program’s all time leading rusher. Hunt has had a bit of an up and down career that included leasing the MAC in rushing despite missing three games in 2014, missing time with nagging injuries and a suspension in 2015, and back to the top of the conference’s rushing ranks in 2016. What is most attractive about Hunt is the ability to change his running style based on situations at the drop of a hat; all of which are at a very high level. Hunt’s greatest trait is the ability to break tackles and with his recent 15 pound weight loss, the athletic ability has taken a step up. He is as complete back as any in this class.

*I’ll tell you what. Gun to my head, I’d have a hard time choosing between Hunt and Fournette. I have had a thing for Hunt all year and once the grading process was over, I realized that Hunt brings to the table what I want out of a back almost across the board. He may not have the athletic upside and he was used a ton in college, but there may not be a back in the class who is better at breaking tackles than Hunt. His balance and lower body strength/stability is on the “rare” level. Considering you can probably get this kid day 2 (maybe even early day 3)…this is someone I want NYG to zero in on. He would be the ideal compliment to add to this backfield. His greatest trait? 1 fumble in 856 carries

Upside Pro Comparison: Mark Ingram – NO



5 – Alvin Kamara – 5’10/214 – Tennessee: 78

Summary: Fourth year junior entry. Began his career at Alabama but after a year of being in the Nick Saban doghouse and looking up the depth chart at current NFL running backs Derrick Henry and Kenyan Drake, Kamara opted to transfer. In his two seasons on the field with the Vols, he displayed excellent ability in space as a rusher and receiver. He has some of the best hands in the class at the position and his easy moving lower body and burst at 215+ pounds will attract teams looking for a third down back. If he can block better, Kamara is an under the radar candidate for major contributions as a rookie.

*There are more than a few people that say Kamara is the most talented rusher in the class. His smooth movement makes him look like he is on ice skates. He is one of the guys that can make difficult things look easy, just such a natural athlete. The charater red flags factored in a little, but not too much.

Upside Pro Comparison: Melvin Gordon - LAC



6 – Marlon Mack – 5’11/213 – South Florida: 78

Summary: Junior entry. All time leading rusher in South Florida history. Rushed for 1,000+ yards all three years of his career. Mack is a big-play threat that can break off the long run if he reaches space. His size and strength can be a tough task to deal with for second and third level defenders. While he isn’t an every down, between the tackles runner, he will own a roster spot and contribute if he can learn how to carry the ball tighter to his body.

*The more I saw, the more I liked with Mack. He did played in a RB friendly offense with a lot of space, but I think he can translate well to the NFL. Lesean McCoy is my pick for top RB these days, and Mack has some of that in him. Almost unreal stop and go ability with natural instincts. If he can be had day 3 you are talking big time value.

Upside Pro Comparison: Lesean McCoy – BUF



7 – Samaje Perine – 5’10/235 – Oklahoma: 77

Summary: Junior entry. All time leading rusher at Oklahoma. Burst on to the scene right away in 2014, rushing for a Big 12 leading 1,713 yards and 21 TDs. His production steadily declined each season from there, partially because of injuries and partially because of the emergence of teammate Joe Mixon. Perine has had the NFL body since his freshman season. His power and strength between the tackles will be NFL-ready week one. He protects the ball well, blocks well, and has top tier intangibles. You know what you’re getting Perine. Limited, but effective in the right role.

*Since the middle of the season, Perine has been on my short list of guys that I think NYG is going to look hard at. He is probably the best fit for what NYG needs to add to their backfield. Good short area pop, tremendous power, quality blocking. Perine is a top notch kid and I feel like NYG will like the fact that you know what you are getting with him.

Upside Pro Comparison: Eddie Lacy – SEA



8 – D’Onta Foreman – 6’0/233 – Texas: 77

Summary: Junior entry. Striking the iron whiles it’s hot after leading the nation in rushing yards per game and taking home the Doak Walker Award. The All American has a rare blend of size and speed that teams will love to use between the tackles. His burst and ability to run away from defenders in space within that frame just screams upside. Foreman isn’t nearly as physical as his frame would suggest and he is very one dimensional. However with just 10 career starts and just half, if not less, the career touches as most other prospects, one has to think the ceiling here is as high as any back in the class.

*One look at Foreman and you’ll think this is the power back that NYG needs. But after watching him as much as I did, I noticed he is lighter on his feet and looks to avoid contact rather than deliver it. One of the biggest draws here is that he still has a lot of progressing to do and if he can figure it out, the upside is as high as anyone. He has every down potential.

Upside Pro Comparison: Jeremy Hill – CIN



9 – Jeremy McNichols – 5’9/214 – Boise State: 77

Summary: Junior entry. His 43 rushing touchdowns over the past two years combined leads the nation. Every down back that has wide receiver-caliber ball skills and plus-blocking ability. Has the frame to handle a lot of hits. Very smart, savvy back that will see things before they appear. McNichols has been the guy for two years now and proved he can help a team in several ways. His hands, return ability, and blocking alone are worth considering for a roster spot. Add in the production and skill set as an interior rusher and McNichols can make a case for being the most well rounded back in this class.

*The more I saw of him, the more saw former Boise State RB Doug Martin. He is a little stiffer, but I think he is a tougher back to take down and he offers more as a r receiver. Some people have told me my outlook on him is too high, but I am keeping him here. He doesn’t have a lot of sexy” to him but he gets it done and offers a lot of versatility.

Upside Pro Comparison: Doug Martin - TB



10 – Tarik Cohen – 5’6/179 – North Carolina A& T: 76

Summary: Four year contributor, three time MEAC Offensive Player of the Year and the conference’s all time leading rusher. Cohen’s production and accolades fills up the wall. His jump in level of competition will be an enormous one. The quickness and burst on someone that is built so low to the ground screams Darren Sproles. Can he pack on some weight and handle NFL tackling? That’s the question but nobody can doubt the danger he presents when he gets the ball in his hands

*You know, we see this kind of prospect pretty often. Unreal production but very undersized and simply under the minimum requirements for what teams look for at the position. I don’t believe in “minimums” though and Cohen is a guy that I consider a legit 3rd/4th rounder. I haven’t see a guy move like this since Tavon Austin and I think Cohen has more football IQ to him. He needs the right system and role but he can be a game changer.

Upside Pro Comparison: Darren Sproles – PHI



11 –Joe Mixon – Oklahoma – 6’1/226: 74

Summary: Third year sophomore entry. Suspended for the 2014 season after he was arrested for hitting a female student. Whichever team drafts him will have to deal with an abundance of PR-related issues. On the field, Mixon can be called one of the top backs in this class. He has rare movement ability for a back his size and there is some natural vision and reaction ability here that you won’t see very often. He is an every down back that has some questions to answer, but as a player, he can be big time.

*This will be one of the more interesting situations to watch over draft weekend. I do think teams are worried about the PR situation if they draft him but I would be surprised if he got bumped down past the 4th/5th round area. And I still think there is a shot he is a top 100 overall guy. The fact his situation happened years ago when he was early in his college career will help his image a tad. On the field Mixon was my third rated back. I think he can be a very good, every down back. He has it all when it comes to talent and tools.

Upside Pro Comparison: Arian Foster – RET



13 – Wayne Gallman – 5’11/205 – Clemson: 73

Summary: Fourth year junior entry. He could have come out last year after setting the single season rushing record at Clemson, but he opted to come back for his redshirt junior season. Gallman’s overall production dipped, but he proved to be a more complete back. His blocking and receiving skill set were taken to the next level and he further developed his ability to read a defense post-snap. His game is based on speed and aggression, something every team is looking for in their backfield. He can be a valuable part to a committee approach right away.

*Gallman is a pro ready back but I don’t think he is ever going to be a feature guy, which is fine. His ability plant his foot and burst combined with his toughness can make him a dangerous player. He became a much better blocker and receiver this season as well. I wish he could hold on to more weight and protect the ball better, but you could do much worse than having him as your number two back.

Upside Pro Comparison: Fozzy Whitaker – CAR



14 – Deveon Smith – 5’11/223 – Michigan: 73

Summary: Michigan’s leading rusher each of the past two seasons. Smith is a between the tackles specialist that can provide short yardage presence and plus-blocking. His upside is limited, as he simply won’t make a lot of plays in space or create on his own. A team will know exactly what they are getting with him.

*Smith showed me some things in the pre-draft process that Michigan never really put on display. First of all, he is a better pass catcher than most give him credit for and he might be the best blocker in this entire group. Those two things in addition to his power running will get him a lot of looks. What he does with them early in his career will be huge.

Upside Pro Comparison: Christine Michael – GB



15 – Brian Hill – 6’1/219 – Wyoming: 73

Summary: Junior entry. Leaves Wyoming after re-writing the single season and career rushing records across the board. His 4.287 yards over three years trails only Dalvin Cook (Florida State) and Donnell Pumphrey (San Diego State) nationally. The production and notable feel for shifting his way through traffic will get everyone’s attention. His biggest question is, and will be, can he break tackles in the NFL? His lower body needs more power and there are some maturity issues that need to be looked in to.

*A few people I spoke with told me back in October that Hill was going to be a top 5 back in this class. He has impressive vision and feel with the ball in his hands. Can run away from a defense, yes, but what I look for the most in college backs is consistent ability to break tackles. He didn’t do that well enough for my liking but I can see why people like him. He has an impressive frame and was uber-productive. I think he’s off the board before I consider him. Also has some off field problems.

Upside Pro Comparison: Taiwan Jones – OAK



15 - Corey Clement – 5’10/220 – Wisconsin: 72

Summary: Four year contributor that finished his career with a 2nd Team All Big Ten performance after a 2015 that included more lows and than highs. Clement has some durability issues in addition to a questionable off-field reputation. Between the lines he has the upside of an effective inside runner but nothing more. The lack of fluid movement and speed in addition to poor vision may prevent him from any consistent role.


*I was curious to see how this kid would respond to taking over for Melvin Gordon back in 2015. A few things didn’t go his way and he became a poor sport, showing some immaturity that stayed in my mind while evaluating him. Clement is a very good back. Breaks tackles, does a lot of little things well. He is limited to specific duties but I think he can get it done in the right role. Don’t expect every an every down back but give him a short yardage role and I think he will thrive if he can keep his focus.

Upside Pro Comparison: Rex Burkhead - NE



BEST OF THE REST

16 – Christopher Carson – 5’11/218 – Oklahoma State: 72
17 – Donnell Pumphrey – 5’8/176 - San Diego State: 72
18 – Elijah McGuire – 5’9/214 – Louisiana-Lafayette: 72
19 – Anthony Wales – 5’10/195 – Western Kentucky: 72
20 – James Conner – 6’1/233 – Pittsburgh: 70
21 – Jamaal Williams – 6’0/212 – BYU: 70
22 – Matt Breida – 5’10/190 – Georgia Southern: 70
23 – Justin Davis – 6’1/208 – USC: 70
24 – Matthew Dayes – 5’9/205 – NC State: 70
25 – Elijah Hood – 6’0/232 – North Carolina: 69



NYG APPROACH

To be blunt, I think NYG needs to bring in a fresh back somewhere in the draft. The need isn’t immediate or large, but I think it is necessary to bring a new back in. They can be patient and wait for the right value, as I would put a lot of money on someone graded highly will be there in round 4/5. That said, I am taking Dalvin Cook at 23 if he is there and won’t think about it unless one of the few guys I have graded above him are there, which isn’t likely. Ideally NYG brings in a power back so they don’t have to put that role on Perkins shoulders or rely on a Draughn type back. All in all, the OL needs to perform better if any of these backs will be effective, but the overall talent in this draft class is too high for a team that has very little talent in their backfield to pass on.
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RE: I'm curious about Donnel Pumphrey  
Sy'56 : 4/10/2017 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13422540 adamg said:
Quote:
How does he compare to Tarik Cohen?


Cohen can change direction much better than Pumphrey. His agility and short area burst is unrivaled. Pumphrey is more of a straight line guy without top tier speed. At that size...that bothers me. I'm not sure he can be Dexter McCluster...and if he's not...I don't think he is in the league for long.
RE: Sy'56  
Sy'56 : 4/10/2017 4:32 pm : link
In comment 13422573 est1986 said:
Quote:
MCCAFFREY AT 23??? YES OR NO???


It has to be considered an option, yes. But I now think he is going top 20.
RE: SY, awesome write ups as always  
Sy'56 : 4/10/2017 4:33 pm : link
In comment 13422536 Lionhart28 said:
Quote:
I too have Cook as my #1 back. I love Fournette but I don't see the quickness I want out of an elite NFL back...

Any thoughts on Joe Williams as a player? Quitting the team issues aside...


Straight line only. Lacks vision and ball security. Won't break a lot of tackles. Add in the off field stuff, I don't lie him.
RE: Not taking  
section125 : 4/10/2017 4:45 pm : link
In comment 13422418 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
a guy in the 1st who has had a pretty bad history of run ins with the law...and not just a single bar fight or something like that. Cook's rap sheet is just kind of troubling for someone who can basically be set for life with the talent he has. If we take him, I'll pray that he is actually a good person.


We have been over this a few times..

I want you to list the transgressions, please.

We (I) get it - you want McCaffrey. But Cook is just the better player. I'm intrigued by McCaffrey, but Cook is pretty special. And his biggest fault is fumbling, yes.

People put too much emphasis on a change of pace back  
Ivan15 : 4/10/2017 5:12 pm : link
Team should be able to run its entire offense through the 2nd RB. If you think Perkins can handle the entire offense, then the backup should too.

Unless the Giants feel that Darkwa or Draughn can do that job, Cook, Hunt, Foreman and McNichols appear to have the most similar skill set to Perkins. Maybe Mixon too but I doubt that the Giants want to take the heat for him.
RE: RE: I'm curious about Donnel Pumphrey  
adamg : 4/10/2017 5:32 pm : link
In comment 13422968 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13422540 adamg said:


Quote:


How does he compare to Tarik Cohen?



Cohen can change direction much better than Pumphrey. His agility and short area burst is unrivaled. Pumphrey is more of a straight line guy without top tier speed. At that size...that bothers me. I'm not sure he can be Dexter McCluster...and if he's not...I don't think he is in the league for long.


Thanks.
Fournette is a beast with elusive feet  
guineaT : 4/10/2017 5:34 pm : link
Doesn't break tackles? Knocking LB's and Safeties over on his way to the endzone still counts doesn't it? His yards after contact are elite which puts the lie to that theory. Talk about paralysis by over-analysis. His post season workouts have confirmed what the tape shows. He possesses a rare blend of size, power and speed.

Could Cook be a better fit for some teams? Sure but is he a better player? I don't think so.

And anyone rating Cook ahead of him based on Fournette's 'off field' concerns as a reason is a hypocrite.

They're both very good prospects for different reasons.
No  
prdave73 : 4/10/2017 5:43 pm : link
Aaron Jones, Joe Williams, Stanley Williams, or even Pumphrey on the list? All have some good talent and potential.
My bad on Pumphrey..  
prdave73 : 4/10/2017 6:29 pm : link
..
Thank you.....I truly look forward to your review  
George from PA : 4/10/2017 7:00 pm : link
I prefer the lower millage guys....RB gems can be found in the lower rounds.....Like Alvin's story. Tough to pass on Cook but it's harder to find other positions later in draft like DE.

Curious to see McCaffery career.....I am not overly impressed.
RE: RE: Not taking  
Dan in the Springs : 4/10/2017 8:22 pm : link
In comment 13422988 section125 said:
Quote:

We have been over this a few times..

I want you to list the transgressions, please.


Fatman in Charlotte did a great job of responding to this:

Quote:
I hope people realize..
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/5/2017 10:43 am : link : reply
his rap sheet isn't confined to an incident where he punched a girl in the face.

- In 2009, he was arrested for robbery.
- In 2010, he was arrested for possession and use of a firearm after he brought a gun to a school event and fired it.
- In 2014, he was arrested and charged with criminal mischief for firing a weapon and destruction of property
- In 2014, he was also accused of brandishing a weapon in an aggravated assault case
- In 2015, he was charged with animal cruelty after several dogs under his care were tethered to trees with heavy chains

Then, he punched a woman in the face.

That's a lot of red flags, especially in today's NFL. Escalating issues over the past 6 years.
I'd take McCaffery at 23  
Phil in LA : 4/10/2017 8:32 pm : link
he's a game breaker, like Meggett was for us.
STAY AWAY from Cook  
Stan in LA : 4/10/2017 8:36 pm : link
BUST written all over him.
The Giants won't touch Cook  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 4/10/2017 9:09 pm : link
.
This pretty much confirms my thoughts  
blueblood : 4/10/2017 10:24 pm : link
that for me.. McCaffrey or Perine make the most sense for the Giants.
Sy you did Donnell Pumphrey dirty  
SHO'NUFF : 4/10/2017 11:02 pm : link
"best of the rest" for the all time leading rusher in NCAA history?
RE: Sy you did Donnell Pumphrey dirty  
Sy'56 : 4/11/2017 4:12 am : link
In comment 13423353 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
"best of the rest" for the all time leading rusher in NCAA history?


Ron Dayne was near the top of that list too
No love for Joe Williams?  
Milton : 4/11/2017 4:24 am : link
Is it because he quit on his team before returning or do you just not see it from him on the field?
Foreman  
Dragon : 4/11/2017 5:31 am : link
In the third can't see him making it to our 4th round pick but those first two picks will make that third round pick a team need only possibly. Mixon in the 4th is BPA, team need and even the bad press is something you just have to say he has to have learned from his past. In the end it's about getting the best players for the team and sometimes praying they will not become pains in the backside.
always  
NYGTBlair : 4/11/2017 7:31 am : link
look forward to your position breakdowns.. thank you.
RE: No love for Joe Williams?  
Sy'56 : 4/11/2017 8:47 am : link
In comment 13423403 Milton said:
Quote:
Is it because he quit on his team before returning or do you just not see it from him on the field?


He had a grade of 72 prior to me taking some off the off the field issues. I don't see any special in him. Initially I really liked his gaebreaking ability on a frame that wasn't small...but there are a few RB traits he lacks. Vision, adjustment, ball security.
Hunt seems like the type that the Giants like. Big, good blocker  
Victor in CT : 4/11/2017 9:31 am : link
Sounds like he can be Jacobs to Perkins' Bradshaw
Thanks Sy, great report, if I may ask  
GMen23 : 4/11/2017 10:11 am : link
I may have been too obsessed with the Giants must pick a RB in the first two Rds. I noted you have a 70 or greater grade on 9 QBs, but 24 such RBs. Maybe Jerry can finally hit in the 3rd RD.

Taking your grades one step further, Trubitsky is your highest graded QB at 80, the same as your 4th RB, Kamara.

I really do not want to see the Giants expend more than a late Rd flyer, on a QB, this year.

If you could answer my question:
Do you see a scenario where one of the top three RBs actually fall to 23?
And if not, would you consider it a reach, for Hunt, Kamara, Foreman, etc, at 23?
Sy, should you happen to check in on this tread again,  
TC : 4/11/2017 10:36 am : link
I wonder if you had a chance to see more than I have of the sleeper, Kade Harrington from little known Lamar University. I guess I must admit to having a liking for underdogs, but then was surprised when I watched the only video of him I could find on Draft Breakdown, a game from 2015 when he was still a junior. I watched because of curiosity as to why the Giants would spend one of their official visits on a small RB from a virtually unknown football program, but became pretty enthusiastic by what I saw.

He's listed at 5'9", 190, but looks to my eye more around 5'8" or 5' 7 1/2". But he's solidly built, even stocky. And short RB's aren't necessarily at a disadvantage in many of the skills needed to be a RB. He suffered a foot injury in the 6th game last season which ended his season, and that I suspect may be the reason the Giants wanted to see him in person before finalizing their grade. And I think they might have an interest in him as a priority UDFA if he doesn't get drafted.

Considering that the Giants would look at him all I expected to see a player looking flashy against lesser competition. But what I saw instead was a RB whose overall play looked very solid, even impressive, against Baylor, quality SEC competition. He's got flip-the-switch acceleration, great vision, excellent lateral agility and runs with surprising authority for a guy his size against tacklers who are almost always larger than he is. He looks very polished for a college player. Unfortunately his one major mistake comes at the end of the video when he makes a bad fumble, but unless that's an on-going problem I wouldn't weigh it too heavily.

Did you see any more of this guy? Do you see any of the talent there that I think he has?

Video: Kade Harrington - ( New Window )
I want no part of Mixon...  
Dunedin81 : 4/11/2017 11:39 am : link
this is an organization that has at least pretended to be above that. There have been exceptions and redemption cases (Christian Peter - whether I believed he deserved that chance or not) but there is nothing to indicate that Mixon is particularly remorseful, that this was an isolated incident or the result of addiction or something that, if addressed, would make him a lower risk going forward.
RE: I'd take McCaffery at 23  
Simms11 : 4/11/2017 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13423209 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
he's a game breaker, like Meggett was for us.


It's looking more and more likely that he won't get out of the top 15.
Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
Victor in CT : 4/11/2017 12:39 pm : link
McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something
RE: Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
Amtoft : 4/11/2017 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13423749 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something


Yes you are
RE: Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
ryanmkeane : 4/11/2017 12:46 pm : link
In comment 13423749 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something

I think run of the mill RBs are being devalued, but the special kind of backs still get taken in the 1st round, top 20 or so. While McCaffrey doesn't necessarily scream "special" to me - he can do it all and is tough as nails. Great athlete. I think he's a first round guy.
RE: Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
Amtoft : 4/11/2017 12:56 pm : link
In comment 13423749 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something


Why is it you think he can't carry the ball more than 20 times a game?

3 players the last 2 years. Which one is Christian McCaffrey, which one is Dalvin Cook, and which one is Leonard Fournette?...

Player A
7 games with 30+ carries in a game
19 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

Player B
2 games with 30+ carries in a game
11 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

Player C
1 game with 30+ carries in a game
15 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

That doesn't even include how much he was used as a receiver, punt returns, and kick returns. He weighed in at 202 lbs a the combine. There is zero evidence that he can't carry a 20 carry a game load period!
RE: RE: Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
Victor in CT : 4/11/2017 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13423804 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 13423749 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something



Why is it you think he can't carry the ball more than 20 times a game?

3 players the last 2 years. Which one is Christian McCaffrey, which one is Dalvin Cook, and which one is Leonard Fournette?...

Player A
7 games with 30+ carries in a game
19 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

Player B
2 games with 30+ carries in a game
11 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

Player C
1 game with 30+ carries in a game
15 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

That doesn't even include how much he was used as a receiver, punt returns, and kick returns. He weighed in at 202 lbs a the combine. There is zero evidence that he can't carry a 20 carry a game load period!


quoted Sy's review.
RE: RE: RE: Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
Amtoft : 4/11/2017 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13423833 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13423804 Amtoft said:


Quote:


In comment 13423749 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something



Why is it you think he can't carry the ball more than 20 times a game?

3 players the last 2 years. Which one is Christian McCaffrey, which one is Dalvin Cook, and which one is Leonard Fournette?...

Player A
7 games with 30+ carries in a game
19 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

Player B
2 games with 30+ carries in a game
11 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

Player C
1 game with 30+ carries in a game
15 games with at least 20+ carries in a game

That doesn't even include how much he was used as a receiver, punt returns, and kick returns. He weighed in at 202 lbs a the combine. There is zero evidence that he can't carry a 20 carry a game load period!



quoted Sy's review.


I disagree with what Sy wrote about that completely. Sure he isn't a power back, but he ran between the tackles of a very good sized OL at Stanford. Stanford runs a proset style offense. He wasn't in some gimmick shotgun offense. Just because you aren't a power running back doesn't mean you aren't a full time 20 carry a game back. Here is the thing I hate Stanford and screw McCaffrey, but don't make dumb statements because someone swore he only weighed 190 lbs. They were wrong, but the tag has stayed.
RE: Thanks Sy, great report, if I may ask  
Sy'56 : 4/11/2017 1:25 pm : link
In comment 13423561 GMen23 said:
Quote:
I may have been too obsessed with the Giants must pick a RB in the first two Rds. I noted you have a 70 or greater grade on 9 QBs, but 24 such RBs. Maybe Jerry can finally hit in the 3rd RD.

Taking your grades one step further, Trubitsky is your highest graded QB at 80, the same as your 4th RB, Kamara.

I really do not want to see the Giants expend more than a late Rd flyer, on a QB, this year.

If you could answer my question:
Do you see a scenario where one of the top three RBs actually fall to 23?
And if not, would you consider it a reach, for Hunt, Kamara, Foreman, etc, at 23?


I do think one of the top 3 RBs can be available at 23, absolutely.

I am under the notion this team should wait until day 2/3 for a RB because I think one of these guys is going to fall and present great value. If Cook is there though...man I am not sure.
RE: Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
Sy'56 : 4/11/2017 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13423749 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something


RBs are still highly sought after and valued, and they always will be.
Good stuff Sy  
ryanmkeane : 4/11/2017 2:07 pm : link
thanks again. Curious as to your liking of Cook a lot more than McCaffrey. To my untrained non scouting eye, McCaffrey is the better athlete and also had amazing college production. Plus his off the field being much better than Cook.
No to McCaffrey  
Bluesbreaker : 4/11/2017 2:53 pm : link
I just don't think he fits what we need . He is not an
every down back in the NFL .
I like Foreman and would be equally happy with Perrine both
bigger backs that can carry the load great compliments
to Perkins .
You would think Cook would be very hard to pass up but he
has some off field issues .
I want one of the top TE's and perhaps a guard tackle to
give the O-line some competition and add depth .
Unless they take a pass rusher at #1 I still want a TE that
can threatened the defense .
RE: RE: Ruuning backs are being devalued, yet there are folks who would  
Victor in CT : 4/11/2017 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13423903 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13423749 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


McCaffrey as a 3rd down specialist, cant carry the ball 20x per game, KR man in the top 15? I'm missing something



RBs are still highly sought after and valued, and they always will be.


I just don't see how you take a guy who is not an every down player that high.
RE: RE: RE: Not taking  
allstarjim : 4/11/2017 3:39 pm : link
In comment 13423188 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 13422988 section125 said:


Quote:



We have been over this a few times..

I want you to list the transgressions, please.




Fatman in Charlotte did a great job of responding to this:



Quote:


I hope people realize..
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/5/2017 10:43 am : link : reply
his rap sheet isn't confined to an incident where he punched a girl in the face.

- In 2009, he was arrested for robbery.
- In 2010, he was arrested for possession and use of a firearm after he brought a gun to a school event and fired it.
- In 2014, he was arrested and charged with criminal mischief for firing a weapon and destruction of property
- In 2014, he was also accused of brandishing a weapon in an aggravated assault case
- In 2015, he was charged with animal cruelty after several dogs under his care were tethered to trees with heavy chains

Then, he punched a woman in the face.

That's a lot of red flags, especially in today's NFL. Escalating issues over the past 6 years.



No, FMiC did not do a great job in responding... he misrepresented facts, he exaggerated others, and he incorrectly claimed some of the above were facts when they aren't true at all.

The first 2014 incident involved BB guns, which he and Jameis Winston were firing at each other (I believe other players were involved)... it was careless, reckless, they broke a window or two, but stating "firing a weapon" is a blatant attempt to construe something as far worse than it actually was.

He then claimed that in 2014 he was accused of brandishing a weapon. This statement is actually false. He was named an associate in a case in which two other suspects were accused of brandishing a weapon. Cook himself was not accused or alleged to have done any criminal activity here. I could not find a final disposition of the case but I do know that Cook was not one of the two suspects.

He then stated as fact that Cook punched a woman, which he was acquitted of, very swiftly, by the way, and an impartial witness at the scene said he did not punch the woman as she claimed.

There is room for criticism of his behavior, but exaggerations and falsehoods to try to paint his behavior as worse than they are should be called out for what it is... disingenuous at best.

Oh yeah, and forgot  
allstarjim : 4/11/2017 3:46 pm : link
Him labeling Cook as "firing a weapon," ffs... he, Jameis Winston and other players were shooting off bb guns... at each other. They broke some windows and were arrested for it. It was horseplay, idiotic horse play for sure, stupid and irresponsible, yes... but it's a pretty minor transgression.
RE: Good stuff Sy  
Sy'56 : 4/11/2017 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13424009 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
thanks again. Curious as to your liking of Cook a lot more than McCaffrey. To my untrained non scouting eye, McCaffrey is the better athlete and also had amazing college production. Plus his off the field being much better than Cook.


I think Cook has some special in him. He excels at key areas where I look (vision/break tackles). His game speed is simply faster than the guys chasing him, and that is a rare trait.
RE: Oh yeah, and forgot  
Dan in the Springs : 4/11/2017 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13424154 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Him labeling Cook as "firing a weapon," ffs... he, Jameis Winston and other players were shooting off bb guns... at each other. They broke some windows and were arrested for it. It was horseplay, idiotic horse play for sure, stupid and irresponsible, yes... but it's a pretty minor transgression.


Okay, let's revise his statement thusly, and tell me if it's correct now:
- In 2009, he was arrested for robbery.
- In 2010, he was arrested for possession and use of a firearm after he brought a gun to a school event and fired it.
- In 2014, he was arrested and charged with criminal mischief for a "BB gun incident that left car windows broken".
- In 2014, he was named as an associate in an aggravated assault case
- In 2015, he was charged with animal cruelty after several dogs under his care were tethered to trees with heavy chains.

Then he was accused of punching a woman in the face outside of a bar.

Do you agree with that? Is this not a "pretty bad history of run ins with the law"?

If you think there's no pattern of trouble there we can just agree to disagree. My point is that he's not really a clean guy who got caught up once in a bar fight or something like that. I see a pattern of issues here.
What??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/11/2017 5:43 pm : link
Quote:
No, FMiC did not do a great job in responding... he misrepresented facts, he exaggerated others, and he incorrectly claimed some of the above were facts when they aren't true at all.


I listed exactly what the complaints were verbatim from an article in the Tallahassee paper. you can add context that he only fired a B B gun, but he was charged with criminal mischief.

I already said before that I listed the charges based on the charge or the complaint as published. I didn't add context or remove context - it is a list of charges and allegations.


RE: What??  
allstarjim : 4/11/2017 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13424341 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


No, FMiC did not do a great job in responding... he misrepresented facts, he exaggerated others, and he incorrectly claimed some of the above were facts when they aren't true at all.



I listed exactly what the complaints were verbatim from an article in the Tallahassee paper. you can add context that he only fired a B B gun, but he was charged with criminal mischief.

I already said before that I listed the charges based on the charge or the complaint as published. I didn't add context or remove context - it is a list of charges and allegations.



No, you didn't. You said, as a matter of fact, that he was accused of brandishing a weapon. He wasn't. Therefore, it's not a charge or an allegation.

You also stated he punched the woman as if it was fact. It is not fact.

And to Dan, I think being factual and the context matters. And when you list, "he was accused of punching a woman in the face," I would instead say, "he was acquitted of punching a woman in the face."

Your exact words, copy/pasted: "Then, he punched a woman in the face."

That's a statement as if it actually happened, when it is more likely than not to have not occurred, and an onsite eyewitness with no relationship to either party testified that it did not occur.
That was a disjointed post  
allstarjim : 4/11/2017 5:55 pm : link
But obviously was referring to FMiC when saying what his exact words were.

The punching incident was stated as a fact... not an allegation and not referencing that he was acquitted.
Here's what the article..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/11/2017 6:07 pm : link
said about the brandishing of the weapon:

Quote:
the Tallahassee Police Department released over 300 reports on Christmas Eve in response to a public records request, all of which involved a current or former Florida State University athletes.

According to a press release from the TDP, authorities did not include documents from an open case involving FSU freshman running back Dalvin Cook.

"While several of the reports requested involve open and active cases, one of note, involves an aggravated assault by three men who are alleged to have brandished a firearm at a neighbor on July 17th, 2014," the release read. "Dalvin Cook, a current FSU football player is listed as a complaintee. The case is under investigation and once complete, it will be provided as an update to this release."


Again - I listed charges and allegations, without adding or removing context. The "then he punched the girl in the face" should have been said as an allegation, but it wasn't part of the listing in the article.

Still seems like splitting hairs and acting as if I made stuff up.
Allstar  
ryanmkeane : 4/11/2017 11:19 pm : link
no offense but defending what FMiC said, which was actually pretty much accurate, instead of focusing on Cook is pretty silly. You make it sound like Cook's 10 item rap sheet is all conjecture.
RE: Allstar  
ryanmkeane : 4/11/2017 11:20 pm : link
In comment 13424669 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
no offense but defending what FMiC said, which was actually pretty much accurate, instead of focusing on Cook is pretty silly. You make it sound like Cook's 10 item rap sheet is all conjecture.

Arguing* not defending
Look let's say 5 of these things  
ryanmkeane : 4/11/2017 11:23 pm : link
Cook didn't actually do. It's still pretty sad that he puts himself in that situation in the first place. It's one thing to have some random event that you aren't a part of and have it be listed in your criminal history. But to make excuses for all this shit would be a mistake. Not saying the kid can't improve as a person but I wouldn't trust 20 million bucks on it.
First  
allstarjim : 4/12/2017 9:20 am : link
I'm not even interested in what he did or didn't do when he was 13 or 14 years old growing up in Miami-Dade.

He shot some bb guns with teammates, broke some windows, and was arrested.

He was arrested for mistreating puppies when they were chained up by heavy chains.

He was acquitted for punching a woman.

That's an accurate reflection of the guy you'd get. I personally think it's enough to drop him.

I didn't even list the "associate" in a case where other people were charged with brandishing. Why? That's not on him? Who was he an associate of? The guy brandishing? Or the neighbor making the accusation? So what's the point of listing something as if he was somehow guilty of a crime when he wasn't even alleged to do have done anything?

I look at his stuff and say that trouble seems to find him, and the dog stuff is pretty ignorant. I think it has a lot to do with his background and growing up the way he did. But I don't see anything there that says he is definitely a bad kid. If he did punch that woman, that would change things. But I don't believe he did after all I've read about it.
I'm confident  
Sy'56 : 4/12/2017 9:47 am : link
Cook's draft status will not have a big impact coming from off field issues. There is smoke, absolutely. It may bump him down a spot or two, but nothing dramatic.

If he is available at 23, very few players will be wroth taking over him.
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