A lot of those prospect a notch or two above have turned out to be busts over recent years..
It's a crapshoot, but I'm tired of watching the Giants struggle with OL picks. Would be preferred to not force an OL pick amongst a consensus weaker crop.
RE: If only the prospects weren't a notch or two below average
There's always the second day. Besides, I feel like the Giants have at least 3 starting OL positions locked up with RG & RT being the only 2 contested spots.
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg then Hart/Fluker/Jerry at RG followed by Fluker/Hart at RT.
RE: RE: If only the prospects weren't a notch or two below average
There's always the second day. Besides, I feel like the Giants have at least 3 starting OL positions locked up with RG & RT being the only 2 contested spots.
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg then Hart/Fluker/Jerry at RG followed by Fluker/Hart at RT.
Unlikely you're getting an upgrade on day two, but it doesn't mean reach on day one either. I'd agree their starting five is likely already in place, perhaps day two brings a depth prospect at interior OL.
The top three OT prospects seem like perfectly legitimate first round prospects to me. None of them are perfect, but the Giants aren't drafting in the top ten this year. Was Eric Fisher out of Central Michigan a perfect prospect the year he went #1 overall? And if you add in Lamp as an OG/OT prospect, I think they compare favorably to the 2015 crop of projected first round talent. If the Giants could have Ereck Flowers as their 4th ranked prospect overall, what must they think of Cam Robinson?
Reese will be doing cartwheels if Cam Robinson is still available when the Giants are on the clock. The question is what will he do if none of the three OL are still available at #23? Or if only one of them is left when the Titans or Bucs are on the clock at #18 and #19?
I suspect other positions of greater regard will present NYG with an opportunity to add an edge rusher, WR, or CB. Potentially settling out of need for an OL is awfully uninspiring, not unlike Flowers and Pugh.
is a massive red flag for me, potentially more so than someone coming off of knee surgery.
I'll trust the Giants judgement if Ramzyck is the pick, and iirc he did play through it which shows me he's tough as nails, but its a legitimate concern that needs to be meticulously looked into.
is a massive red flag for me, potentially more so than someone coming off of knee surgery.
I'll trust the Giants judgement if Ramzyck is the pick, and iirc he did play through it which shows me he's tough as nails, but its a legitimate concern that needs to be meticulously looked into.
Not sure why. He played through it in the Sugar Bowl and dominated.
And for a team that fielded the worst pair of starting OTs in the league last year, not checking out the top-rated OTs in the draft would be the height of incompetence - regardless of whether or not you think they're worth consideration as 1st-round picks.
Guys, who is locked up on our OL beyond this year?
What about beyond next year? People keep focusing on who is replacing who at what position this year. It isn't about this year. We could be going into next year with only 2 lineman locked up maybe 3. A lot of people assume Pugh will be re-signed. The OG market has been insane. Pugh may cost over $10 million per year. Fluker is on a one year deal. Richburg is up soon. Flowers and Jerry may be the only sure things on our line in a year or two.
And to bring up the way these linemen are perceived, the "sure thing" linemen have been anything but. Ramczyk seems like the real deal. Yes, he has concerns but that is why these players are being brought in. Wisconsin has had a great track record with OL. I am all for the Giants doing their due diligence with these linemen. These guys are being pushed down for one reason or another in a deep draft. We should consider ourselves lucky. How many times do we get annoyed becaused the Giants reached for a linemen? Now, the oppositd is happening. Quality linemen are dropping to us.
RE: If only the prospects weren't a notch or two below average
Not sure why people are so lukewarm on him. I doubt he'll be there at 23 but if he is I'll be happy with the pick. High floor high ceiling player at a position of need.
RE: Guys, who is locked up on our OL beyond this year?
What about beyond next year? People keep focusing on who is replacing who at what position this year. It isn't about this year. We could be going into next year with only 2 lineman locked up maybe 3. A lot of people assume Pugh will be re-signed. The OG market has been insane. Pugh may cost over $10 million per year. Fluker is on a one year deal. Richburg is up soon. Flowers and Jerry may be the only sure things on our line in a year or two.
And to bring up the way these linemen are perceived, the "sure thing" linemen have been anything but. Ramczyk seems like the real deal. Yes, he has concerns but that is why these players are being brought in. Wisconsin has had a great track record with OL. I am all for the Giants doing their due diligence with these linemen. These guys are being pushed down for one reason or another in a deep draft. We should consider ourselves lucky. How many times do we get annoyed becaused the Giants reached for a linemen? Now, the oppositd is happening. Quality linemen are dropping to us.
Good post.
RE: RE: If only the prospects weren't a notch or two below average
I don't know. Flowers was recently drafted in the top 10 and he's struggling. Wasn't he suppose to be good? I think there were a few other highly rated guys struggling as well.
I get that, but for me that reinforces the lack of quality OL prospects in recent drafts.
The quality is gone very early, beyond that you're often looking at prospects better suited to RT. What NYG can't afford is to draft Ramzyck or Cam and be stuck with two RTs moving forward.
is a massive red flag for me, potentially more so than someone coming off of knee surgery.
I'll trust the Giants judgement if Ramzyck is the pick, and iirc he did play through it which shows me he's tough as nails, but its a legitimate concern that needs to be meticulously looked into.
Not sure why. He played through it in the Sugar Bowl and dominated.
Not sure why you'd meticulously look into hip surgery? I get you are a fan and he's good, but take a step back from him being a Badger and insert any other school. Its absolutely a concern.
I'd rather gamble that a Dawkins,Moton,Lamp, Garcia
What about beyond next year? People keep focusing on who is replacing who at what position this year. It isn't about this year. We could be going into next year with only 2 lineman locked up maybe 3. A lot of people assume Pugh will be re-signed. The OG market has been insane. Pugh may cost over $10 million per year. Fluker is on a one year deal. Richburg is up soon. Flowers and Jerry may be the only sure things on our line in a year or two.
And to bring up the way these linemen are perceived, the "sure thing" linemen have been anything but. Ramczyk seems like the real deal. Yes, he has concerns but that is why these players are being brought in. Wisconsin has had a great track record with OL. I am all for the Giants doing their due diligence with these linemen. These guys are being pushed down for one reason or another in a deep draft. We should consider ourselves lucky. How many times do we get annoyed becaused the Giants reached for a linemen? Now, the oppositd is happening. Quality linemen are dropping to us.
I'm with you Robbie. 30th ranked rushing offense. Right now we are bringing the same OL back, with the exception of Newhouse out, and Fluker, in. I liked him coming out of college, and hope a winning locker room resurrects his career. But is that really enough improvement for arguably the achilles heel unit of the team?
However, I'm not thinking about future contracts as much as upgrading 2017.
I would not be disappointed if after 22 picks, an OL was on our top remaining tier.
that in 2015 we were 19th in rushing so I think we are somewhere in that 22-25 range since we finished last season way better than where we started.
If we can crack that top 20 in rushing (which will have as much to do with Perkins and Co with no more plodding Jennings as it will improved OLine play) our offense will be in a lot better shape. We also didn't have a + blocking TE or WR on the team the past 2 years.
That's why I don't really want to force an OL pick at 23. If its Ramzyk and his medicals check out, go nuts. But I wouldn't pass up on a playmaker at another position out of fear the OL will stink.
If not for anything else but competition for these current players. If a rookie wins the job this year then awesome.
However, I brought up the future because that is what teams have to do. Lets say we don't bring in a lineman this year. How will we repatch our OL expecially if Pugh prices himself out of our price range for him? What if Flowers does progress? We would be putting ourselves in a no win situation because not only would we have to spend a lot in FA or valuable resources in next year's draft there is no guarantee that we can accomplish all that in one year.
Look at this offseason and last offseason. Quality OL are becoming harder to find. And when you do find them you are paying for them with either a lot of money or high picks. I think if we do not get a potential starter out of this draft for the future we could be looking at mission impossible next year. Now, my situation may be the worst case but that is how GMs need to think. And I hope the Giants are doing the same.
That's why I don't really want to force an OL pick at 23.
I don't think anyone wants them to force an OL pick at 23 (or any other position for that matter), but it will be great if an OL is BPA when they are on the clock, because OL is by far the team's biggest need. Fingers crossed.
I get that, but for me that reinforces the lack of quality OL prospects in recent drafts.
The quality is gone very early, beyond that you're often looking at prospects better suited to RT. What NYG can't afford is to draft Ramzyck or Cam and be stuck with two RTs moving forward.
Agreed. I wouldn't hate the pick, but he is coming off the hip surgery, and only played one year of D1 football. Robinson has character issues, and reminds some of Flowers. Boles would probably be the best of the three because his feet are fantastic, but he needs to get stronger. He will also likely be gone by #23.
More than likely, Reese will simply draft another developmental OL on day three. That has worked out about as well as all his developmental QBs, see Petrus, Mosley, McCants, Brewer, etc. But that is probably what will happen. Look for Julie'n Davenport, Dieugot Joseph, or Kareem Are on day three.
That's why I don't really want to force an OL pick at 23.
I don't think anyone wants them to force an OL pick at 23 (or any other position for that matter), but it will be great if an OL is BPA when they are on the clock, because OL is by far the team's biggest need. Fingers crossed.
That, in a nutshell, is the quandary of BPA What's on Jerry's board as a BPA might not be on any BBI'ers BPA board. We've seen in past drafts that the pick the Giants said was BPA wasn't one that the majority thought should be. And, coincidentally, also seemed to fit need, although we've been told that was just a coincidence. So, especially at #23,we could take any one of 15-20 players as a BPA!
We should be happy. Pugh was really good at RT Rookie year and he wasn't nearly as talked about as this "bad group/class of OL"... And he went higher than 23 I think.
I'm hoping the Giants don't have the grade on these OT's to draft one
I have no trust in Giants being able to identify good OL.. They should reach out to him and access the OL...Giants are great at drafting WR, and pretty good at drafting DT and DEs but they suck at drafting OL.. May be its a league wide thing.. but we have put in as many draft resources as any team in the league and have one of the worst OL in the league to show for it... I'd rather trust JR drafting from a super strong group of DE, CB and DT or even RB rather than draft a OL..
RE: After reviewing the SY's draft analysis from the past 2 years
I have no trust in Giants being able to identify good OL.. They should reach out to him and access the OL...Giants are great at drafting WR, and pretty good at drafting DT and DEs but they suck at drafting OL.. May be its a league wide thing.. but we have put in as many draft resources as any team in the league and have one of the worst OL in the league to show for it... I'd rather trust JR drafting from a super strong group of DE, CB and DT or even RB rather than draft a OL..
Love Sy'56 but he is no Marc Ross/Jerry Reese and company
had been pointing up for Reese and Ross as of the past few seasons and they had a great draft last year. I'm hopeful this class will net another 2-3 high quality players for the roster moving forward.
We've seen in past drafts that the pick the Giants said was BPA wasn't one that the majority thought should be. And, coincidentally, also seemed to fit need, although we've been told that was just a coincidence.
I think it's a case of not just one guy being BPA, but a "row" of guys who carry the same grade (or close enough). And then they pick the prospect from the row who matches their greatest need.
Last year they were supposedly targeting Floyd and Conklin but ultimately settled for Apple. Those are three very different positions.
the top OL tackles are going top 10. So these guys going at 23 is already factoring in the fact that they aren't top of the draft material. That doesn't mean that they aren't first rounders in this or another draft.
Boylehart and others love this guy. If he checks out, he has to be part of the conversation. Getting an inferior/more risky player in the second or third is still getting an inferior/more risky player.
As a fan, I always want the splashy player. That said, depending upon how the draft falls, I would have no problem with him. At 23, the Giants have to consider all the options as a lot is completely out of their control. The last thing they can do is focus on a particular position. Got to take the best that is available.
RE: RE: After reviewing the SY's draft analysis from the past 2 years
I have no trust in Giants being able to identify good OL.. They should reach out to him and access the OL...Giants are great at drafting WR, and pretty good at drafting DT and DEs but they suck at drafting OL.. May be its a league wide thing.. but we have put in as many draft resources as any team in the league and have one of the worst OL in the league to show for it... I'd rather trust JR drafting from a super strong group of DE, CB and DT or even RB rather than draft a OL..
Love Sy'56 but he is no Marc Ross/Jerry Reese and company
I was exaggerating a bit.. because JR and them know how to find WR.. Steve Smith, Nicks, OBJ are all awesome picks.. but every OL they have picked has under performed.. Dallas used the same amount of resources as we did and they have 3 all-pro players.. We have none and outside of Pugh's last year no one has even played at a top 5-10 level ..
Nothing wrong with due diligence.
Klaatu : 9:47 am : link : reply
And for a team that fielded the worst pair of starting OTs in the league last year, not checking out the top-rated OTs in the draft would be the height of incompetence - regardless of whether or not you think they're worth consideration as 1st-round picks.
Jordan Raanan @JordanRaanan
All the top O-lineman (Ramczyk, Cam Robinson, Garrett Bolles) have pre-draft visits with #Giants
A lot of those prospect a notch or two above have turned out to be busts over recent years..
Quote:
this year.
A lot of those prospect a notch or two above have turned out to be busts over recent years..
It's a crapshoot, but I'm tired of watching the Giants struggle with OL picks. Would be preferred to not force an OL pick amongst a consensus weaker crop.
There's always the second day. Besides, I feel like the Giants have at least 3 starting OL positions locked up with RG & RT being the only 2 contested spots.
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg then Hart/Fluker/Jerry at RG followed by Fluker/Hart at RT.
Quote:
this year.
There's always the second day. Besides, I feel like the Giants have at least 3 starting OL positions locked up with RG & RT being the only 2 contested spots.
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg then Hart/Fluker/Jerry at RG followed by Fluker/Hart at RT.
Unlikely you're getting an upgrade on day two, but it doesn't mean reach on day one either. I'd agree their starting five is likely already in place, perhaps day two brings a depth prospect at interior OL.
Reese will be doing cartwheels if Cam Robinson is still available when the Giants are on the clock. The question is what will he do if none of the three OL are still available at #23? Or if only one of them is left when the Titans or Bucs are on the clock at #18 and #19?
I don't know what more a guy can prove in a year.
That said, I hope we don't go OL in Rnd 1 -- but if he is the pick, it's not a remote thrower for me.
(Full disclosure, I am the other Badger fan on BBI)
Robinson will most likely be gone.
I'll trust the Giants judgement if Ramzyck is the pick, and iirc he did play through it which shows me he's tough as nails, but its a legitimate concern that needs to be meticulously looked into.
I'll trust the Giants judgement if Ramzyck is the pick, and iirc he did play through it which shows me he's tough as nails, but its a legitimate concern that needs to be meticulously looked into.
Not sure why. He played through it in the Sugar Bowl and dominated.
And to bring up the way these linemen are perceived, the "sure thing" linemen have been anything but. Ramczyk seems like the real deal. Yes, he has concerns but that is why these players are being brought in. Wisconsin has had a great track record with OL. I am all for the Giants doing their due diligence with these linemen. These guys are being pushed down for one reason or another in a deep draft. We should consider ourselves lucky. How many times do we get annoyed becaused the Giants reached for a linemen? Now, the oppositd is happening. Quality linemen are dropping to us.
If they weren't a notch below they wouldn't be an option at #23.
+1
Not sure why people are so lukewarm on him. I doubt he'll be there at 23 but if he is I'll be happy with the pick. High floor high ceiling player at a position of need.
And to bring up the way these linemen are perceived, the "sure thing" linemen have been anything but. Ramczyk seems like the real deal. Yes, he has concerns but that is why these players are being brought in. Wisconsin has had a great track record with OL. I am all for the Giants doing their due diligence with these linemen. These guys are being pushed down for one reason or another in a deep draft. We should consider ourselves lucky. How many times do we get annoyed becaused the Giants reached for a linemen? Now, the oppositd is happening. Quality linemen are dropping to us.
Good post.
Quote:
this year.
If they weren't a notch below they wouldn't be an option at #23.
The consensus is the prospects are below average relative to recent first round crops. The same was said in the Pugh draft, fwiw.
Like Jon said, he probably won't be there
Ramczyk and Bolles just don't do it for me
The quality is gone very early, beyond that you're often looking at prospects better suited to RT. What NYG can't afford is to draft Ramzyck or Cam and be stuck with two RTs moving forward.
Quote:
is a massive red flag for me, potentially more so than someone coming off of knee surgery.
I'll trust the Giants judgement if Ramzyck is the pick, and iirc he did play through it which shows me he's tough as nails, but its a legitimate concern that needs to be meticulously looked into.
Not sure why. He played through it in the Sugar Bowl and dominated.
Not sure why you'd meticulously look into hip surgery? I get you are a fan and he's good, but take a step back from him being a Badger and insert any other school. Its absolutely a concern.
And to bring up the way these linemen are perceived, the "sure thing" linemen have been anything but. Ramczyk seems like the real deal. Yes, he has concerns but that is why these players are being brought in. Wisconsin has had a great track record with OL. I am all for the Giants doing their due diligence with these linemen. These guys are being pushed down for one reason or another in a deep draft. We should consider ourselves lucky. How many times do we get annoyed becaused the Giants reached for a linemen? Now, the oppositd is happening. Quality linemen are dropping to us.
I'm with you Robbie. 30th ranked rushing offense. Right now we are bringing the same OL back, with the exception of Newhouse out, and Fluker, in. I liked him coming out of college, and hope a winning locker room resurrects his career. But is that really enough improvement for arguably the achilles heel unit of the team?
However, I'm not thinking about future contracts as much as upgrading 2017.
I would not be disappointed if after 22 picks, an OL was on our top remaining tier.
If we can crack that top 20 in rushing (which will have as much to do with Perkins and Co with no more plodding Jennings as it will improved OLine play) our offense will be in a lot better shape. We also didn't have a + blocking TE or WR on the team the past 2 years.
That's why I don't really want to force an OL pick at 23. If its Ramzyk and his medicals check out, go nuts. But I wouldn't pass up on a playmaker at another position out of fear the OL will stink.
However, I brought up the future because that is what teams have to do. Lets say we don't bring in a lineman this year. How will we repatch our OL expecially if Pugh prices himself out of our price range for him? What if Flowers does progress? We would be putting ourselves in a no win situation because not only would we have to spend a lot in FA or valuable resources in next year's draft there is no guarantee that we can accomplish all that in one year.
Look at this offseason and last offseason. Quality OL are becoming harder to find. And when you do find them you are paying for them with either a lot of money or high picks. I think if we do not get a potential starter out of this draft for the future we could be looking at mission impossible next year. Now, my situation may be the worst case but that is how GMs need to think. And I hope the Giants are doing the same.
One could fall to 23..
Have to trust the Giants and their ability to scout these big guys.
If they pick a OL at 23 it is because they think he is a very good player, so we should all be very excited since we all know this team needs OL help.
The quality is gone very early, beyond that you're often looking at prospects better suited to RT. What NYG can't afford is to draft Ramzyck or Cam and be stuck with two RTs moving forward.
Agreed. I wouldn't hate the pick, but he is coming off the hip surgery, and only played one year of D1 football. Robinson has character issues, and reminds some of Flowers. Boles would probably be the best of the three because his feet are fantastic, but he needs to get stronger. He will also likely be gone by #23.
More than likely, Reese will simply draft another developmental OL on day three. That has worked out about as well as all his developmental QBs, see Petrus, Mosley, McCants, Brewer, etc. But that is probably what will happen. Look for Julie'n Davenport, Dieugot Joseph, or Kareem Are on day three.
Quote:
That's why I don't really want to force an OL pick at 23.
I don't think anyone wants them to force an OL pick at 23 (or any other position for that matter), but it will be great if an OL is BPA when they are on the clock, because OL is by far the team's biggest need. Fingers crossed.
That, in a nutshell, is the quandary of BPA What's on Jerry's board as a BPA might not be on any BBI'ers BPA board. We've seen in past drafts that the pick the Giants said was BPA wasn't one that the majority thought should be. And, coincidentally, also seemed to fit need, although we've been told that was just a coincidence. So, especially at #23,we could take any one of 15-20 players as a BPA!
Love Sy'56 but he is no Marc Ross/Jerry Reese and company
Last year they were supposedly targeting Floyd and Conklin but ultimately settled for Apple. Those are three very different positions.
Boylehart and others love this guy. If he checks out, he has to be part of the conversation. Getting an inferior/more risky player in the second or third is still getting an inferior/more risky player.
As a fan, I always want the splashy player. That said, depending upon how the draft falls, I would have no problem with him. At 23, the Giants have to consider all the options as a lot is completely out of their control. The last thing they can do is focus on a particular position. Got to take the best that is available.
Quote:
I have no trust in Giants being able to identify good OL.. They should reach out to him and access the OL...Giants are great at drafting WR, and pretty good at drafting DT and DEs but they suck at drafting OL.. May be its a league wide thing.. but we have put in as many draft resources as any team in the league and have one of the worst OL in the league to show for it... I'd rather trust JR drafting from a super strong group of DE, CB and DT or even RB rather than draft a OL..
Love Sy'56 but he is no Marc Ross/Jerry Reese and company
I was exaggerating a bit.. because JR and them know how to find WR.. Steve Smith, Nicks, OBJ are all awesome picks.. but every OL they have picked has under performed.. Dallas used the same amount of resources as we did and they have 3 all-pro players.. We have none and outside of Pugh's last year no one has even played at a top 5-10 level ..
And if you believe that look under your Pillow, the Tooth Fairy is alive and well.
Klaatu : 9:47 am : link : reply
And for a team that fielded the worst pair of starting OTs in the league last year, not checking out the top-rated OTs in the draft would be the height of incompetence - regardless of whether or not you think they're worth consideration as 1st-round picks.