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Comp picks - Can we get some clarity?

robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 2:40 pm
Yes, Hankins signed a big deal that could net us a nice pick but, to my understanding, we need to lose more players than we sign. So, lets go through the list.

Players signed:
Marshall (doesn't count because he was released)
Ellison
Fluker (released)
Blake
Smith
Draughn

Players lost:
Hankins
Gould
Newhouse
Sensabaugh

That looks like 4 signed and 4 lost. Unless I am missing someone or a player was released as opposed to their contract expiring it looks as if we are not getting a comp pick. Am I wrong?
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/13/2017 2:44 pm : link
In addition to the 32 picks in each round of the NFL Draft, there are a total of 32 picks awarded at the ends of Rounds 3 through 7. These picks, known as “compensatory picks,” are awarded to teams that have lost more qualifying free agents than they gained the previous year in free agency. Teams that gain and lose the same number of players but lose higher-valued players than they gain also can be awarded a pick, but only in the seventh round, after the other compensatory picks. The placement of the picks is determined by a proprietary formula based on the player’s salary, playing time, and postseason honors with his new team, with salary being the primary factor. Compensatory picks are awarded each year at the NFL annual meeting which is held at the end of March; typically, about three or four weeks before the draft.
its a complex non public formula  
ECham : 4/13/2017 2:45 pm : link
but the $$ hankins got , i believe means we will get a pick
RE: its a complex non public formula  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13427220 ECham said:
Quote:
but the $$ hankins got , i believe means we will get a pick


It is not a complex formula in terms of determining if you are eligible for a pick. It is complex to formula to determine where the picks will be slotted.
A complex formula  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 2:50 pm : link
Not complex to formula
So, if my original post is correct with FA lost FA gained  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 3:04 pm : link
Then we will be getting a 7th and not a possible 4th like Kratch suggested.
looks like nothing  
MotownGIANTS : 4/13/2017 3:07 pm : link
especially if we now sign Blount from NE (as rumored).
RE: looks like nothing  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 3:10 pm : link
In comment 13427279 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
especially if we now sign Blount from NE (as rumored).


If we sign another FA who wasn't released then, yes, you are correct. But I said a 7th because of what Eric posted.

Quote:
Teams that gain and lose the same number of players but lose higher-valued players than they gain also can be awarded a pick, but only in the seventh round, after the other compensatory picks.
Certainly, JPP counts in the formula.  
Diver_Down : 4/13/2017 3:11 pm : link
He had no contract at the end of the season. He was tagged and then signed to a multi-year contract. Certainly, if he were signed by another team, then he would count towards a comp pick. I would think he would count against any comp pick.
RE: Certainly, JPP counts in the formula.  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13427288 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
He had no contract at the end of the season. He was tagged and then signed to a multi-year contract. Certainly, if he were signed by another team, then he would count towards a comp pick. I would think he would count against any comp pick.


It doesn't take into account when you resign your own FA.
Blake and Draughn  
Mike in NY : 4/13/2017 3:15 pm : link
Depending on the value of the Contract and if they make the roster, they might not be factored into compensatory pick signing. Also, because Ellison's contract is substantially less than that of Hankins, they might not cancel each other out for comp pick purposes. I thought they only cancel out with a player of equal round comp value or one round lower.
I thinking Hankins balances Ellison  
MotownGIANTS : 4/13/2017 3:16 pm : link
...so signing Blount put us on the (positive) side of things meaning on comp.

All those fluff and fodder signings are equal out in my vision of it all.
I'm  
MotownGIANTS : 4/13/2017 3:16 pm : link
.
theres  
Steve in Greenwich : 4/13/2017 3:17 pm : link
a great article on Over The Cap explaining the methodology behind it. The Giants should get a high pick from Hankins. The Giants three signings of Blake, Geno Smith & Draughn all basically are of too little value to offset any loses. When computing the average value of the contract all workout bonuses, incentives & salary escalators are removed, so Geno's contract is basically a vet min. Also the player has to remain on the team thru the half way point of the season, so if any of those guys get cut (all three received contracts easy to be cut / replaced by rookie or UDFA) they no longer count. So really Rhett Ellison is the only signing of any consequence and he would get canceled out by Robbie Gould.
Link - ( New Window )
It has nothing to do with making the team.  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 3:19 pm : link
The formula to know if you are eligible for a pick is FAs whose contract expired lost vs. FAs whose contracts expired signed not from your own team. That just lets you know if you will get a pick.

In terms of slotting the picks, price of the contract, snaps, and something else get factored in. If we sign more FAs than we let go then it is irrelevant that Hankins got a lot more than Ellison.
Robbie  
Steve in Greenwich : 4/13/2017 3:21 pm : link
at least according to that over the cap analysis, yes, making the team affects it.

"In order to qualify for the comp equation, a player must have been a true Unrestricted Free Agent whose contract had expired or was voided after the previous season (i.e., he cannot have been released by his old team); he must sign during the UFA signing period (which ended July 27 last year); if he signs after June 1, he must have been tendered a June 1 qualifying offer by his old team; his compensatory value or contract value must be above a specific minimum amount; and he cannot have been permanently released by his new team before a certain point in the season (which seems to be after Week 10) or, possibly, before getting a certain amount of playing time, unless he was claimed off waivers by another team."
RE: Robbie  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13427307 Steve in Greenwich said:
Quote:
at least according to that over the cap analysis, yes, making the team affects it.

"In order to qualify for the comp equation, a player must have been a true Unrestricted Free Agent whose contract had expired or was voided after the previous season (i.e., he cannot have been released by his old team); he must sign during the UFA signing period (which ended July 27 last year); if he signs after June 1, he must have been tendered a June 1 qualifying offer by his old team; his compensatory value or contract value must be above a specific minimum amount; and he cannot have been permanently released by his new team before a certain point in the season (which seems to be after Week 10) or, possibly, before getting a certain amount of playing time, unless he was claimed off waivers by another team."


Thanks for that aricle. I had to read that paragraph like ten times to comprehend that. Lol.

Either way, I am interested in truly understanding if we would get a comp for Hankins since there is language in there about value of players offsetting each other but it seems like Hankins and Ellison would not be in the same teir unless Hankins missed a significant amount lf time.
The answer is yes (probably)  
James Kratch : 4/13/2017 3:55 pm : link
Comp picks aren't guaranteed until the NFL announces them next year. But right now, as far as I understand it, the Giants will get one for Hankins. My guess is they get a fourth-rounder. Can't rule out a third until the actual details of Hankins' contract emerge.

Over The Cap has the Giants even right now in terms of comp pick eligible players going in and out. Gould, Newhouse and Sensabaugh are projected to be worth a 7th; Ellison a 6th, Draughn and Geno a 7th.
RE: The answer is yes (probably)  
James Kratch : 4/13/2017 3:56 pm : link
To add on: JPP doesn't count against the Giants, and both Logan and Poe were worth fourth-round picks according to OTC's chart.

In comment 13427409 James Kratch said:
Quote:
Comp picks aren't guaranteed until the NFL announces them next year. But right now, as far as I understand it, the Giants will get one for Hankins. My guess is they get a fourth-rounder. Can't rule out a third until the actual details of Hankins' contract emerge.

Over The Cap has the Giants even right now in terms of comp pick eligible players going in and out. Gould, Newhouse and Sensabaugh are projected to be worth a 7th; Ellison a 6th, Draughn and Geno a 7th.
James  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 4:07 pm : link
Thanks for chiming in. I saw your tweet that said we should be in line for a 4th which is why I started this thread. I hope you are right. I do find it funny that this is such a mystery. Why isn't it transparent? Is it because they feel teams will manipulate the system more? I know Kirwan is not a fan of comp picks at all. Do you have any knowledge if that view is shared by a lot of other NFL owners/GMs/etc.? Thanks again.
robbie  
Four Aces : 4/13/2017 4:54 pm : link
Vet min contracts don't factor much, if at all, into the comp pick formula. Giants signed Draughn, Geno Smith and Blake to vet min contracts.

However, Giants lost Gould, Sensabaugh, Newhouse and now Hankins to contracts to contracts for significant dollars. So that's 4 lost to 1 added... for net of 3 lost players.

Therefore, I expect the Giants to get at least a 4th and maybe a lower pick in the 6th/7th round.
RE: robbie  
robbieballs2003 : 4/13/2017 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13427538 Four Aces said:
Quote:
Vet min contracts don't factor much, if at all, into the comp pick formula. Giants signed Draughn, Geno Smith and Blake to vet min contracts.

However, Giants lost Gould, Sensabaugh, Newhouse and now Hankins to contracts to contracts for significant dollars. So that's 4 lost to 1 added... for net of 3 lost players.

Therefore, I expect the Giants to get at least a 4th and maybe a lower pick in the 6th/7th round.


That would be awesome. Next year's draft is supposed to be pretty deep too.
i think a 4th and a 6/7th  
Vanzetti : 4/13/2017 5:47 pm : link
.
Geno was released and doesn't count  
Chip : 4/13/2017 8:09 pm : link
Salary also plays a factor and Hankins got a big one. I think I am right on Geno
Geno Smith was not released... He was a FA that the Jets chose not to  
Four Aces : 4/13/2017 10:05 pm : link
re-sign. So Geno would have, in principle, counted in the comp formula. However, he was signed to a vet min contract. So his contract doesn't factor into the comp pick formula.
Robbie  
James Kratch : 4/14/2017 10:36 am : link
I'm not sure exactly why it's so secretive. I will see what I can find out. I don't think it's a trade concern, because teams couldn't trade comp picks until recently. My guess (and it's just a guess) is the secrecy may be in order to protect free agency. Teams could try to rig contracts to make them count for lesser rounds, and teams could avoid signing veterans (or simply delay the process) in order to work around the system.

Right now OTC only projects the Giants getting a comp pick for Hankins. The qualifying free agents coming in are Ellison, Geno and Draughn, heading out are Gould, Newhouse and Sensabaugh. In hindsight, that's probably a bit of good news for Draughn. Doubt it guarantees him a roster spot, but they did give up the shot at an extra pick.
James Kratch...  
Milton : 4/14/2017 11:12 am : link
Any relation to the former 3rd round pick of the Giants?
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