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NFT: Billions (Showtime - potential spoilers)

Matt M. : 4/13/2017 2:59 pm
There hasn't been a thread in a while. I am almost done with the last episode. I have to say, I am disappointed in what I perceive as a dropoff from season 1 and I'm curious as to others' opinions.

For one, what is the point of this Taylor character? Did they throw in the questionable gender to try to be progressive? I find it has the opposite effect and find the way that character is treated to be completely unrealistic in that environment. I know it is by design, but I don't care for the almost robotic nature of the character. I'm not sure if they related the personality to the gender issue, but I'm not a fan.

At this point they turned Wags into a caricature. I think they are doing the same with a lot of the fringe characters as well. At this point, I'm not rooting for either protagonist. I'm hoping they both just go away.
I think we will find that Taylor is having  
Section331 : 4/13/2017 3:11 pm : link
a crisis of conscience, and I wonder if Taylor will end up turning on Axe due to his calling the debt on the town. Taylor worked pretty closely with Axe, and would have dirt to spill for Chuck Rhodes.

The show has definitely fallen off a bit from the first season. Still entertaining, but the gubernatorial run seems a little forced.
RE: I think we will find that Taylor is having  
Matt M. : 4/13/2017 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13427287 Section331 said:
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a crisis of conscience, and I wonder if Taylor will end up turning on Axe due to his calling the debt on the town. Taylor worked pretty closely with Axe, and would have dirt to spill for Chuck Rhodes.

The show has definitely fallen off a bit from the first season. Still entertaining, but the gubernatorial run seems a little forced.
I'm not so sure about that. Taylor seemed to have no conscience when making the speech last week about seizing all the assets from the town.
I know, but with Taylor's talks with Wendy,  
Section331 : 4/13/2017 4:07 pm : link
I think "they" are (is?) having second thoughts.
I may not have seen the whole talk with Wendy  
Matt M. : 4/13/2017 4:14 pm : link
But, she only seemed to feel bad about Mafee struggling with his/her success.
This season  
pjcas18 : 4/13/2017 4:14 pm : link
isn't quite as good as season 1, but still good.

some of the stuff like Axe barging in to the club to confront Rhoades and his father seemed like a stretch.

and Rhoades going from losing his job to running for office on the back of the flimsy testimony from the dude whose wife the guy was banging and he just opens up at dinner also seemed unlikely and convenient, but that's why it's a fiction show.

I like the Taylor character, complex character obviously but capable of being a 100% emotionless analytical mind, fits very well with the industry I think and complements Axe nicely, you can see why he's drawn to her and favors her.


.  
BrettNYG10 : 4/13/2017 4:19 pm : link
Offensive:

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you can see why he's drawn to her and favors her.
I like the whole  
B in ALB : 4/13/2017 4:20 pm : link
parallel bit between Rhoades and Axe - how they're both shady as hell going after each other for their sins. For me, Chuck is a little less believable in his role.

Also, found it interesting that Axe's lawyer was the crazy lunatic murderer guy from the first season of True Detective.
RE: This season  
Matt M. : 4/13/2017 4:23 pm : link
In comment 13427451 pjcas18 said:
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isn't quite as good as season 1, but still good.

some of the stuff like Axe barging in to the club to confront Rhoades and his father seemed like a stretch.

and Rhoades going from losing his job to running for office on the back of the flimsy testimony from the dude whose wife the guy was banging and he just opens up at dinner also seemed unlikely and convenient, but that's why it's a fiction show.

I like the Taylor character, complex character obviously but capable of being a 100% emotionless analytical mind, fits very well with the industry I think and complements Axe nicely, you can see why he's drawn to her and favors her.

A few thoughts:

1) Things have been a little too convenient, even for a show of fiction

2) Is Taylor a she?

3) I don't find Taylor all that complex. I think they oversimplified a couple of stereotypes and characteristics.

4) What's the deal with Dollar Bill? The firt half of the first season, his name was mentioned multiple times an episode. When he was finally cleared or whatever, he has had a less than marginal role. He is credited with being in just about every episode, but that must include just showing up in the background. How many lines has he had this season? Five?

5) I find Terry Kinney's character annoying and another caricature type.
RE: .  
Matt M. : 4/13/2017 4:24 pm : link
In comment 13427464 BrettNYG10 said:
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Offensive:



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you can see why he's drawn to her and favors her.

Is it? We don't know if it is correct or not.
Sounds like you need to find a new show to watch  
pjcas18 : 4/13/2017 4:29 pm : link
almost everything about what the show purports to be seems to bother you.

I have no idea why someone would put themselves through the 60 minute torture to only complain about nearly every aspect of the show.

I think Taylor identifies as gender neutral, but I believe biologically she's a she.

and the gender neutral pronouns don't fit in a written sentence grammatically and I'm a stickler for proper grammar, my apologies to the delicate flowers offended by my words like Brett.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 4/13/2017 4:36 pm : link
Quote:
my apologies to the delicate flowers offended by my words like Brett.


Thank you.
RE: ...  
pjcas18 : 4/13/2017 4:36 pm : link
In comment 13427510 BrettNYG10 said:
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Quote:


my apologies to the delicate flowers offended by my words like Brett.



Thank you.


My apology was insincere.
RE: Sounds like you need to find a new show to watch  
Matt M. : 4/13/2017 4:37 pm : link
In comment 13427491 pjcas18 said:
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almost everything about what the show purports to be seems to bother you.

I have no idea why someone would put themselves through the 60 minute torture to only complain about nearly every aspect of the show.

I think Taylor identifies as gender neutral, but I believe biologically she's a she.

and the gender neutral pronouns don't fit in a written sentence grammatically and I'm a stickler for proper grammar, my apologies to the delicate flowers offended by my words like Brett.
I was having the same trouble in the written word with the correct pronouns in certain context.

Overall, I am still interested in the show and willing to see where it goes. I just think last season was worlds better. They dedicated the whole season to a long, drawn out story. This season almost seems like each episode is it's own somewhat related rushed story. I think I am most interested in what happens to Brian.

Speaking of which, did they ever really explain what happened between him and Kate? Last season the alluded to them heading toward getting together, but then we get to season two (how much time elapsed) and they are not together. Sometimes they seem adversarial and sometimes not. I'd like to know what happened. Either way, she seems to be playing her own games and setting herself up regardless of whether Brian or Lonnie gets the promotion.
I will add  
Matt M. : 4/13/2017 4:39 pm : link
in season 1 there was a lot more dealing with the financial trading of Axe. they actually tried to explain some of the strategies and decisions and avenues for investment. This season just seems to be oversimplifying this aspect as well. Maybe it's because it is more of an afterthought with chuck not trying to nail Axe directly right now.
RE: RE: ...  
BrettNYG10 : 4/13/2017 4:40 pm : link
In comment 13427511 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 13427510 BrettNYG10 said:


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Quote:


my apologies to the delicate flowers offended by my words like Brett.



Thank you.



My apology was insincere.


RE: RE: RE: ...  
pjcas18 : 4/13/2017 4:43 pm : link
In comment 13427515 BrettNYG10 said:
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In comment 13427511 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13427510 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:




Quote:


my apologies to the delicate flowers offended by my words like Brett.



Thank you.



My apology was insincere.





Are you wearing your designer jeans?

Haven't taken them off since I was born.  
BrettNYG10 : 4/13/2017 4:48 pm : link
I don't understand what Taylor's gender-neutrality does for the show. Doesn't seem to add-value. I like the character, though.

I kind of struggle with how long Axe/Chuck can be interesting. They can't drag it on for five seasons, can they? I kind of agree with whoever said it seemed a bit lazy for him to go from about to be fired to Governor so quickly, but I can forgive it.
I think Taylor's gender neutrality  
pjcas18 : 4/13/2017 4:53 pm : link
shows how Axe cares solely about can you help him make money and if so, he is willing to see beyond traditional stereotypes of success in the industry and employ whoever and whatever means necessary to be successful.

I think having Taylor as his second person in the poker game showed a little bit of where he was coming from a thought process, and him tanking it to set up the win for Taylor.
RE: I think Taylor's gender neutrality  
Matt M. : 4/13/2017 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13427537 pjcas18 said:
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shows how Axe cares solely about can you help him make money and if so, he is willing to see beyond traditional stereotypes of success in the industry and employ whoever and whatever means necessary to be successful.

I think having Taylor as his second person in the poker game showed a little bit of where he was coming from a thought process, and him tanking it to set up the win for Taylor.
I understand the logic. I just don't buy it. They used this to seem progressive, in my opinion.
I don't think Showtime  
pjcas18 : 4/13/2017 5:16 pm : link
hates the publicity the show got for Taylor, but I would be surprised if that is why they did it.
I could care less about Taylor  
liteamorn : 4/13/2017 5:30 pm : link
The writing is cornball, the acting is worse and (stealing a line from my good friend Popeye) "If I have to watch Paul Giamatti wrestle one more mother fucker I'm going to scream".

As a huge Ben Folds fan, I loved the cameo in the last episode.  
GiantGolfer : 4/14/2017 8:59 am : link
Even Chuck Rhodes was shocked to see him at the party..."Foley doesn't fuck around...that's Ben Folds over there!"

While I agree with everyone that this season is nowhere near season 1 in terms of storyline, writing, acting, etc, I still find it very entertaining.
Finished episode 8 last night  
Matt M. : 4/14/2017 11:32 am : link
I could see Taylor going one of 3 ways:

1) Least likely - becomes more unscrupulous working with Axe

2) Her feelings of gilt grow and after more sessions with Wendy she turns on Axe (possibly whistle blower). This could prove an interesting story, as it would likely put a bullseye back on Wendy and Chuck from Rhodes.

3) She seemed to pick up on Wendy's guilt during the phone call. She could end up using that as leverage against Wendy and/or Chuck (blackmail, etc,). This would probably relate to option 1 as well.
RE: I don't think Showtime  
mfsd : 4/14/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13427573 pjcas18 said:
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hates the publicity the show got for Taylor, but I would be surprised if that is why they did it.


Taylor is played by someone who lives with the same gender neutral identify in real life. Insists on being referred to as they, rather than he or she, just like in the show

I find the character very interesting - I agree with the general sentiment that the show has become pretty cartoonish, but still find it very engaging

I kind of like and dislike both Axe and Chuck, which is the point obviously. Want to see them both win or both lose.

Wendy has become like nails on a chalkboard though. Can you imagine spending time with someone so obnoxiously calculating in real life?
RE: RE: I don't think Showtime  
pjcas18 : 4/14/2017 11:47 am : link
In comment 13428447 mfsd said:
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In comment 13427573 pjcas18 said:


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hates the publicity the show got for Taylor, but I would be surprised if that is why they did it.



Taylor is played by someone who lives with the same gender neutral identify in real life. Insists on being referred to as they, rather than he or she, just like in the show

I find the character very interesting - I agree with the general sentiment that the show has become pretty cartoonish, but still find it very engaging

I kind of like and dislike both Axe and Chuck, which is the point obviously. Want to see them both win or both lose.

Wendy has become like nails on a chalkboard though. Can you imagine spending time with someone so obnoxiously calculating in real life?


I know, I read about her (they). I like the character too, my point as that the casting wasn't something self-serving by the show creators to seem edgy or progressive.

I think they tried to find a character that was so much opposite from Axe they should clash, but they don't they complement each other.

I think Taylor was created to demonstrate what drives and motivates Axe.

I agree, "they" makes for interesting contrast  
mfsd : 4/14/2017 11:51 am : link
to the usually big shot hedge fund type, that's obviously what they were going for
Just when I was slipping away  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 2:28 am : link
the show reeled me back in. Tonight's Episode 9 was easily the best of the season. And, just when I was asking about Dollar Bill, there he was, front and center.

I find the casting of David Strathairn. I always liked him and wondered why he usually played a fringe, sad sack kind of guy. This role is very different for him, but he is doing it well.

This episode also did a good job reinforcing Chuck on the fringe of "good and evil".
Good episode  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2017 8:31 am : link
I wonder if Taylor cracks. I don't think she (they) were involved in anything nefarious, but who knows.

Maybe she knew that Axe was tipped off about Sandicot, if that's even illegal and Chuck pursuing Sandicot will eventually lead back to his father.
Good episode  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 4/17/2017 9:26 am : link
Chuck has really become a compelling character, as opposed to Axe's wife, who I didn't realize what her name was until the end of this episode.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 4/17/2017 9:37 am : link
My guess is Taylor spilling on Axe with a push from Wendy.
RE: Good episode  
BrettNYG10 : 4/17/2017 9:37 am : link
In comment 13431006 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
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Chuck has really become a compelling character, as opposed to Axe's wife, who I didn't realize what her name was until the end of this episode.


I think his wife is boring as hell, totally uninteresting.
RE: ....  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2017 9:38 am : link
In comment 13431015 BrettNYG10 said:
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My guess is Taylor spilling on Axe with a push from Wendy.


I hope not, too predictable. I think Taylor joins the dark side.
RE: RE: ....  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 11:43 am : link
In comment 13431018 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 13431015 BrettNYG10 said:


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My guess is Taylor spilling on Axe with a push from Wendy.



I hope not, too predictable. I think Taylor joins the dark side.
After last week's episode (#8), I was thinking Taylor would be more devious and use her conversations with Wendy either as leverage for Axe or herself or both by using Wendy's guilt, etc. against her. But, last night they kept Taylor on the fence, going back and forth between feeling guilty and different (morally) from the others to being emotionless to enjoying the perks. I didn't like the character at first, but it is becoming a more complex role that could go a few ways. One thing is certain, Taylor will be crucial in making either Axe or Chuck miserable.
RE: Good episode  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13430950 pjcas18 said:
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I wonder if Taylor cracks. I don't think she (they) were involved in anything nefarious, but who knows.

Maybe she knew that Axe was tipped off about Sandicot, if that's even illegal and Chuck pursuing Sandicot will eventually lead back to his father.
Last night they were hinting at bribes, which would be illegal. But, Chuck isn't pursuing it (for now) because of Foley.
You  
mitch300 : 4/17/2017 12:37 pm : link
have to think Rhodes dad using Chucks trust fund to help his friend will come back to bite Chuck in the ass later down the road.
RE: RE: Good episode  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2017 12:43 pm : link
In comment 13431252 Matt M. said:
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In comment 13430950 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


I wonder if Taylor cracks. I don't think she (they) were involved in anything nefarious, but who knows.

Maybe she knew that Axe was tipped off about Sandicot, if that's even illegal and Chuck pursuing Sandicot will eventually lead back to his father.

Last night they were hinting at bribes, which would be illegal. But, Chuck isn't pursuing it (for now) because of Foley.


He wasn't going to pursue Sandicot. I doubt he's given up pursuing Axe. Especially with the book purchase revelation.

that seemed to push Chuck over the edge.
How is the trust  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2017 12:44 pm : link
fund use even illegal?

Seemed like a business venture his dad wants to pursue, and he's going to do it with money he's technically borrowing back from a trust he set up for his son/grand kids.

I'm unclear on what's illegal. Doesn't seem like any insider trading, is it just a conflict of interest somehow?
RE: How is the trust  
mitch300 : 4/17/2017 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13431324 pjcas18 said:
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fund use even illegal?

Seemed like a business venture his dad wants to pursue, and he's going to do it with money he's technically borrowing back from a trust he set up for his son/grand kids.

I'm unclear on what's illegal. Doesn't seem like any insider trading, is it just a conflict of interest somehow?


I couldn't figure that out either.
RE: RE: How is the trust  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13431329 mitch300 said:
Quote:
In comment 13431324 pjcas18 said:


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fund use even illegal?

Seemed like a business venture his dad wants to pursue, and he's going to do it with money he's technically borrowing back from a trust he set up for his son/grand kids.

I'm unclear on what's illegal. Doesn't seem like any insider trading, is it just a conflict of interest somehow?



I couldn't figure that out either.
Ditto. I couldn't figure out why it was a problem. The only thing I can think of is his Dad wasn't borrowing the money out of the trust, but Chuck would be. But, are the Rhodes' investing or giving the money to the attorney?
I'm not sure the book pushed him to pursue Sandicot  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 1:18 pm : link
But, he will certainly go after Axe with a passion now.

This deal with the IPO will very likely be his undoing. While I don't understand all the issues with the trust, they made it clear Chuck using it would present a conflict. How/why would he go along with his father saying they are fine unless anybody talks or traces it back to them or something to that effect? Chuck's whole career is based on sending people to prison for these types of dealings. Of course it is going to come back to them. Did he think running for Governor wasn't going to bring more scrutiny and more enemies?
RE: I'm not sure the book pushed him to pursue Sandicot  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13431371 Matt M. said:
Quote:
But, he will certainly go after Axe with a passion now.

This deal with the IPO will very likely be his undoing. While I don't understand all the issues with the trust, they made it clear Chuck using it would present a conflict. How/why would he go along with his father saying they are fine unless anybody talks or traces it back to them or something to that effect? Chuck's whole career is based on sending people to prison for these types of dealings. Of course it is going to come back to them. Did he think running for Governor wasn't going to bring more scrutiny and more enemies?


I'm not clear on how it's a conflict.

And you have the wrong sequence of events or my point wasn't clear. Foley convinces him to not pursue Sandicot b/c he vaguely explains it will come back to him (Foley) and his dad. "Everything is a circle with Sandicot"

My point was not pursuing Axe and not pursuing Sandicot are not one in the same. Chuck very much is still pursuing Axe and the book buy up by Axe seems like a catalyst for Chuck to cut corners/be more zealous in his pursuit.

And potentially make a misstep.
I think Chuck could be accused of insider trading  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 4/17/2017 1:39 pm : link
?
RE: RE: I'm not sure the book pushed him to pursue Sandicot  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13431402 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13431371 Matt M. said:


Quote:


But, he will certainly go after Axe with a passion now.

This deal with the IPO will very likely be his undoing. While I don't understand all the issues with the trust, they made it clear Chuck using it would present a conflict. How/why would he go along with his father saying they are fine unless anybody talks or traces it back to them or something to that effect? Chuck's whole career is based on sending people to prison for these types of dealings. Of course it is going to come back to them. Did he think running for Governor wasn't going to bring more scrutiny and more enemies?



I'm not clear on how it's a conflict.

And you have the wrong sequence of events or my point wasn't clear. Foley convinces him to not pursue Sandicot b/c he vaguely explains it will come back to him (Foley) and his dad. "Everything is a circle with Sandicot"

My point was not pursuing Axe and not pursuing Sandicot are not one in the same. Chuck very much is still pursuing Axe and the book buy up by Axe seems like a catalyst for Chuck to cut corners/be more zealous in his pursuit.

And potentially make a misstep.
pjcas - I very much agree with you that the book may cause Chuck to overstep and slip up.
RE: I think Chuck could be accused of insider trading  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2017 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13431405 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
Quote:
?


that's what I thought at first, but his attorney is investing in it, it seemed like an investment stage company.

If his attorney can invest in it, not sure why it can't be with Rhoades' money.
RE: I think Chuck could be accused of insider trading  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13431405 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
Quote:
?
Doesn't that depend on whether he is investing or giving the money to his attorney? I initially thought the attorney was asking for money. I guess he was asking for Chuck/his dad to buy up the shares from the current CEO, which I would think would be insider trading and exactly what he is putting people away for.
RE: RE: I think Chuck could be accused of insider trading  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13431414 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 13431405 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


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?



that's what I thought at first, but his attorney is investing in it, it seemed like an investment stage company.

If his attorney can invest in it, not sure why it can't be with Rhoades' money.
That's what wasn't clear. Was asking for their money, which should be fine, or asking them to use their money to invest?
This is also one area where I think this season is lacking  
Matt M. : 4/17/2017 1:47 pm : link
Last season, they spent more time and effort explaining the nature of certain investments and moves by both sides. Now, they seem to be rushing past the details.
I didn't watch this past Sunday's Epi yet  
Stu11 : 4/18/2017 9:06 am : link
but agree and disagree with a lot that has been said. I agree they are glossing over the financial stuff more this year to the detriment of the show. I disagree there has been a drop off though this season. I think it has been even better. Wags to me has never been intriguing so I could care less what they do with him. Taylor has gotten more interesting as she has gone along. I don't see the whistle blowing. Her guilt is about the relationships. The speech about the town tells you all you need to know. I agree the leap from being fired to being the favorite for Governor is a reach even for this show. Oh and someone asked about Brian and Kate. While they never showed them breaking up, I think it was clear that while they seemed to both be into the idea, when it actually happened, they both didn't feel the chemistry in the sack and it was awkward. I do like the tug of war aspect of Ax and Chuck flipping positions on top. Clearly Chuck has the upper hand now, but as the show goes you know we are headed for an Axe hot streak. Finally I won't evaluate anything about Wendy Rhoades' character. Maggie Siff is so hot and sexxy in the role that I cannot be objective...
Chuck Rhoades' father  
davek3698 : 4/19/2017 8:42 am : link
Has there been any mention of how his dad became so wealthy?
yea I wonder that too about his dad  
Stu11 : 4/19/2017 9:02 am : link
Is he a business icon? If so wouldn't that make him the exact type of person Chuck goes after? He clearly has political connections to the top of the state. I don't ever remember them referring to it or mentioning anything.
The blind trust  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 2:04 pm : link
Based on the episode, and his reaction to the Churchill book. I have to assume chuck is using Ice Juice and the blind trust as bait for a "gotcha" with Axe. I didn't get the impression Chuck was caught off guard about the use of the blind trust, but knew the conversation would go there.
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