NY Post- 'Proof Eli Manning Was in on Memorabilia Scheme'

Maybe Eli and the Giants just got tired of hearing from these hacks who want to make money off them and gave them what they wanted in part just to shut them up and get them off their backs.

Like it's been said in a previous post he has more money then he needs to live out the rest of his life why would he need to knowingly be involved in a scheme that would garner chump change unneeded suspicion and consequences.

On tv morning news here in Boston. It must suck being famous.

A whole game? A half? One series?

Maybe Eli meant "qualify" as game used, instead of "pass off"...I'm the first one to admit that I don't use proper grammar or terminology when I talk to my buddies. I certainly don't treat every discussion like it will be picked apart in a court of law.

Plenty of wealthy, giving people do stupid shit like this for reasons I can't begin to explain. In Eli's case, it's possible that he wanted to keep the actual articles for himself and thus made a dumb decision.

That said, a single email, especially one as vague as this one, doesn't constitute legitimate evidence against him. There's way too much room for doubt in what has been leaked to the public.

Unfortunately, the trial for this is set to begin in September. As a fan, I'd be pretty happy if the Giants settled it out of court just so it doesn't become a distraction during the season.

But that seems to the extent of the supposed "evidence". That's basically nothing and it strains credulity to believe that Eli, who is immensely rich and has a spotless reputation, would bother with some minor league memorabilia scam. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but seems highly unlikely, and it would take a helluva lot more than one suspect phrase in one e-mail to make a case for it.

"Pass off" means what you've always known it means -- not the actual jersey he wore, but could credibly be made to appear to be the real thing.

Eli made a mistake. Of course he didn't need the money, but he wanted the real thing for himself, and he had a contract with Steiner to fulfill. He figured no harm no foul, no one would know better.

Now none of this means that a jury will take the plaintiff's side. It's a huge advantage in litigation to be Eli Manning. The jury will likely not be asked to make a specific finding on the issue of whether his jerseys are fake, so he'll likely get past this without a scratch.

Eli never wrote pass off. He wrote, "2 helmets that can pass as game used." He was asking specifically for game used items. This doesn't seem like adequate proof of guilt or even intent. Idk.

Same difference. "Pass as" does not mean it IS something. It means IT IS NOT, but that its appearance could make it appear to be that thing. This is so obvious. Denial is a powerful thing.

In comment 13427595 gidiefor said:

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that's evidence of an attempt to defraud? I sincerely doubt it. He asked for stuff that "could pass as game worn" how is that proof of fraud?

I don't think that is proof at all. However, taking Eli out of this for a second. A jersey or helmet was either worn in a game or wasn't. Not sure how or why something could "pass" for game worn without actually being worn in a game. If the discussions are to that level now, then maybe the whole thing really is some kind of industry scam (not Eli per-se).

Quite honestly, I think the whole memorabilia thing is just stupid. People paying ridiculous sums for this shit is just laughable.

I disagree. Game used items can't look brand new brand. I assume the buyer has certain expectations when they're buying a game used item. Eli asking for something that passes as game used does not prove any intent to defraud buyers. Not sure what is delusional about maintaining skepticism here.

making fun of the fans who shell out for the memorabilia in cases like this should be celebrated here. If Eli (or the Giants) were complicit in this, then it is very, very disappointing, particularly for Eli.

Again, this is IF Eli did it (which I've yet to be convinced). Some of these are die-hard fans who are willing to spend a lot of their hard-earned money so that they can have what they think is a helmet or jersey worn by an iconic player in a game. Maybe it's for their kids. To think that Eli, who has made over $200 million in salary alone, may have helped defraud the guy because he didn't want to part with a $4000 helmet, would really bother me as a big "fuck you" to the fans.

It doesn't mean Eli set out to hatch some nefarious nickel-and-dime plot, but it would indicate a lack of caring for some of the ver fans who live and breathe with the Giants.

But after what Jacobs has said, there seems to be smoke collecting around Joe Skiba and his equipment practices, more so than just the litigious claims of a memorabilia dealer. The Giants should investigate this thoroughly to make sure they aren't supporting an employee helping rip off fans.

Assuming patches are properly sewn on, the difference in appearance would be zilch, unless the game-worn one had stains or dirt that could be shown on video. I'm sure they have spare jerseys. Probably not too hard to replicate stains if one had to.

In comment 13428297 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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making fun of the fans who shell out for the memorabilia in cases like this should be celebrated here. If Eli (or the Giants) were complicit in this, then it is very, very disappointing, particularly for Eli. Again, this is IF Eli did it (which I've yet to be convinced). Some of these are die-hard fans who are willing to spend a lot of their hard-earned money so that they can have what they think is a helmet or jersey worn by an iconic player in a game. Maybe it's for their kids. To think that Eli, who has made over $200 million in salary alone, may have helped defraud the guy because he didn't want to part with a $4000 helmet, would really bother me as a big "fuck you" to the fans. It doesn't mean Eli set out to hatch some nefarious nickel-and-dime plot, but it would indicate a lack of caring for some of the ver fans who live and breathe with the Giants. But after what Jacobs has said, there seems to be smoke collecting around Joe Skiba and his equipment practices, more so than just the litigious claims of a memorabilia dealer. The Giants should investigate this thoroughly to make sure they aren't supporting an employee helping rip off fans.

Per an ESPN article this morning, the Giants did investigate this back in 2011.
ESPN Story - ( New Window )

In comment 13428256 Pete in VA said:

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Same difference. "Pass as" does not mean it IS something. It means IT IS NOT, but that its appearance could make it appear to be that thing. This is so obvious. Denial is a powerful thing.

Seriously....how is this even in question? It's patently obvious what happened here....Eli's agent reminded him that he owed 2 game used helmets to Steiner, and he then proceeded to ask Skiba if he had two helmets that he could pass off as being game used.

I don't think this is really a big deal at all......this is hardly a crime against humanity here. Eli tried to pass off a couple of helmets as game used to fulfill his deal with Steiner.....no big deal. But the way you guys are bending over backwards to deny what is obvious is really hilarious.

In comment 13428179 an_idol_mind said:

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Plenty of wealthy, giving people do stupid shit like this for reasons I can't begin to explain. In Eli's case, it's possible that he wanted to keep the actual articles for himself and thus made a dumb decision. That said, a single email, especially one as vague as this one, doesn't constitute legitimate evidence against him. There's way too much room for doubt in what has been leaked to the public. Unfortunately, the trial for this is set to begin in September. As a fan, I'd be pretty happy if the Giants settled it out of court just so it doesn't become a distraction during the season.

True. It's a better defense than saying that rich people have no reason to defraud people because they can wipe their behind with Benjamins, but the best defense is always the truth

doesn't necessarily mean fake.

Hypothetically, let's say you wanted to get a driver's license in New Jersey, which requires a person to bring "6 Ponts" worth of identification, with various documents qualifying in different ways (current driver's license, passport, Social Security Card, utility bills) and things that wouldn't work (library card, credit card).

If you were texting someone about going to the DMV and casually texted "bring things that will pass as ID," I don't see why that has to be interpreted as "bring fake ID" and not "bring things that are considered acceptable forms of ID."

it could be argued quite easily that "pass" equals "qualify" as many here have stated.

Secondly, in reading the articles this morning, how do we know that the two items in question were known to Manning to be sold as such?

His marketing director sent him an email asking for game used items. What were they for? Gifts? Charity auction? What? Eli then sends the request to Skiba. End of story.

Now, if Eli knowingly asked for something to deliberately defraud somebody out of money, that's a different story.

But context is everything.

It is also alleged by this Inselberg dude that Joe Skiba doctored a Strahan jersey to give to Strahan so he could sell the real one. Strahan just said yesterday that was 100% false.

There really doesn't seem to be a lot here to go on other than he said she said, at least publicly.

Like Paul, if Eli is proven to knowingly fraud fans out of their money, then I'd be disappointed. Based on what I've read, I'm skeptical, and I've followed this hobby for nearly 20 years.

If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are Exhibit 1 for denial. A jersey is either game-worn or it is not. A person asking for a game-worn jersey would not ask for one that would "pass as" game worn. That is not what "pass as" means. At all.

But given Eli's sterling reputation, a jury can probably be convinced to buy into something like what you are saying.

In comment 13428380 Pete in VA said:

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If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are Exhibit 1 for denial. A jersey is either game-worn or it is not. A person asking for a game-worn jersey would not ask for one that would "pass as" game worn. That is not what "pass as" means. At all. But given Eli's sterling reputation, a jury can probably be convinced to buy into something like what you are saying.

If a jersey is worn by Eli on the sideline of a preseason game that he doesn't play in, but is in uniform form, is it game worn?

.

a simple question.

If Eli actually wanted couple of game used helmets, why wouldn't he just say: "Joe, do you have a couple of my game used helmets?"

In comment 13428386 Tesla said:

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a simple question. If Eli actually wanted couple of game used helmets, why wouldn't he just say: "Joe, do you have a couple of my game used helmets?"

Guess it depends on knowing the equipment room process. Do you know if they re-purpose helmets at the end of the season? Change the numbers, store them by size, to be used again the following year? Or do you think they store helmets after every single game or season never to be worn again?

It's a relevant question.

I couldn't tell you how many jerseys, or helmets a player goes through in a season or in a career. I have no idea if they use the same helmet every year, or if they go through several.

If Eli wore a helmet in a game but doesn't have a scratch on it-- would a memorabilia dealer accept that for being "game-worn" or do memorabilia dealers want helmets that have nicks and scratches on them? In the memorabilia world, I have no idea if it's so binary of "it's either game-worn or it isn't."

I can't answer these questions because I don't deal in memorabilia, have no idea what industry customs are, and I have no clue the availability of "game-worn" helmets.

Let's say they re-purpose them, which is common. I don't know the Giants process but re-purposing equipment is extremely, extremely common. When was the email request sent? The offseason? If they are re-purposed and stored, likely by size and fit, how do you distinguish who wore what? There wouldn't be anything readily available, as compared to if he sent it on a Monday after a Sunday game during the season, which it might be easier to ask "can you get me a couple game used helmets".

In comment 13428256 Pete in VA said:

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Same difference. "Pass as" does not mean it IS something. It means IT IS NOT, but that its appearance could make it appear to be that thing. This is so obvious. Denial is a powerful thing.

Pretty much.

colloquially, "pass as" becomes a contronym. It's not denial to be aware of that.

I'm aware of how bad this would be for Eli and why it's bad, but without more corroborating evidence implicating him, whose reputation has been above reproach, I'll reserve judgment.

is going to risk his unmarred reputation to make 4K scamming fans on memorabilia?

Cash grab.

for Eli. If he did it, maybe it was just the hassle, it was simpler to give them anything and claim it as "game used" instead of giving them something actually game used.

plus, as many people have already pointed out some of the wealthiest people on the globe are some of the most dishonest and sleaziest. Not saying Eli is, but having enormous piles of cash hardly precludes someone of being unscrupulous.

I think it best to reserve judgment on this both ways and let it play out. I'd like to believe Eli is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, but nothing would surprise me. And unbiased that text does not sound good, but I reserve judgment, I definitely won't go through the mental gymnastics some of you do to explain at is innocuous.

Fact is none of us knows, so speaking in superlatives makes people come across as homerish and defensive or vice versa, a hater.

neither of which can possibly be known to be true at this time by anyone on this message board.

until fat fuckface Chris Christie started bashing Eli on WFAN this morning. I hope he's cleared and, if so, comes out guns blazing on all these assholes.

he is a big eagles fan

In comment 13428464 bceagle05 said:

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until fat fuckface Chris Christie started bashing Eli on WFAN this morning. I hope he's cleared and, if so, comes out guns blazing on all these assholes.

As I said in my OP the haters are going to have a field day with this, Patriot fans are calling for Eli to be given a 4 game suspension and the Giants to lose their first round pick LOL. Hopefully this goes away soon.

Is Steiner Sports a shady operation? That Steiner guy comes across like he's dirty on YouTube videos so wouldn't surprise me. Steiner is the one Eli has the contract with, right?

I mean credit to him for bilking the public and making millions and we all love and admire the rich ... but still.

In comment 13428508 Suburbanites said:

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In comment 13428464 bceagle05 said: Quote: until fat fuckface Chris Christie started bashing Eli on WFAN this morning. I hope he's cleared and, if so, comes out guns blazing on all these assholes. As I said in my OP the haters are going to have a field day with this, Patriot fans are calling for Eli to be given a 4 game suspension and the Giants to lose their first round pick LOL. Hopefully this goes away soon.

It would be pretty weird for any sort of suspension to happen. If Eli was in on it, it didn't affect the actual competitive nature of the game.

It could violate a personal conduct policy, but we're talking about something that, if it happened, occurred more than half a decade ago. How far back would the NFL be willing to reach in something like this?

In comment 13428411 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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colloquially, "pass as" becomes a contronym. It's not denial to be aware of that. I'm aware of how bad this would be for Eli and why it's bad, but without more corroborating evidence implicating him, whose reputation has been above reproach, I'll reserve judgment.

Well said. There's no athlete I root for in any sport that deserves the benefit of the doubt more than him. First off, there's just no incentive for him to do this. Secondly, the way I see it is, worst case scenario, he didn't really give a shit about any of this, and maybe his intent was to get Skibba to sell anything used. Practice. In Game. Whatever. It maybe was innocent enough as he might not have seen it as a huge distinction.

But again, that's the worst case scenario. There's no way I think he'd deliberately scheme anything.

In comment 13428566 Mike in Long Beach said:

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In comment 13428411 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: colloquially, "pass as" becomes a contronym. It's not denial to be aware of that. I'm aware of how bad this would be for Eli and why it's bad, but without more corroborating evidence implicating him, whose reputation has been above reproach, I'll reserve judgment. Well said. There's no athlete I root for in any sport that deserves the benefit of the doubt more than him. First off, there's just no incentive for him to do this. Secondly, the way I see it is, worst case scenario, he didn't really give a shit about any of this, and maybe his intent was to get Skibba to sell anything used. Practice. In Game. Whatever. It maybe was innocent enough as he might not have seen it as a huge distinction. But again, that's the worst case scenario. There's no way I think he'd deliberately scheme anything.

I don't know. Isn't it always the quiet ones?

So I'm sorry if I jumped the gun. But this is from a MOD over on the official Giants MB. He attends practices and is pretty close to the team. Here is what he wrote over there:


Quote Originally Posted by YATittle1962 View Post
I'm going to explain to all of you one time what is going on here

Eli did nothing wrong

Eli Manning has a deal with Steiner Sports to produce a certain amount of "game worn" equipment per year

this amount that he is under contract to produce is ridiculous ... simply impossible to produce the amount to "game used" equipment within a 16 game season

so what these players do ... all of them ... they wear multiple helmets ... jerseys ... gloves ... socks .... cleats ... etc ... every singe game

sometimes they will wear these things for only warm ups and legally that is "game worn"

now, what happened here is some of the high end collectors that were receiving this equipment were complaining that the equipment looked brand new and were claiming it was fake

Eli was contacting the equipment staff for more beat up equipment to make these high end collectors happy... he thought he was helping actually

it was not fake ... it just was not used in heavy contact

all the items given by Eli were used under conditions contractually sufficient ... he wore them in uniform on game day ... that is all that needs to happen for it to be sold as "game used"

some of these guys are complaining that they got practice helmets because they claimed it had no communication device

first of all ... practice helmets have communication devices

and second they are not going to leave the device in for the sale

Eli did absolutely nothing wrong and this case is completely bogus

believe what you will

all I can offer i the truth

have a great day


Link: http://boards.giants.com/showthread.php?80886-Eli-s-legacy/page2

The term "game used" is the key. If he wears it, technically it can be sold as game used, legally. That's it.

OTAs are next week, right? Hope Eli goes nuclear on his critics for the first time in his life. He got mildly pissed when things were leaked about contract negotiations - I can only imagine how he feels about this.

Exactly right. It makes sense a ton of sense. I don't see why thinking critically rubs some the wrong way. Logic dictated that none of this made any sense, especially about Eli.

if he asked Skiba for new stuff that could be "passed off" as used, but when he's asking if something could "pass as" game worn, it jibes with the main complaint some collectors have - that the items aren't "used" enough.

And that sort of falls in line with the post above. Some of these collectors are probably looking for grass stains, nicks, sweat, etc. and if something looks new, it isn't worth as much (I don't get it, but it is what it is).

That's what I took the "pass as" to mean from the beginning.

I wouldn't piss on this guy if he were on fire.

Quote:

Gov. Chris Christie ripped into "the liar Eli Manning" and the New York Giants during a radio appearance Friday morning, a day after a report revealed Manning turned over a possibly incriminating email in a lawsuit alleging he was involved in a fake sports memorabilia scheme. "He got caught," Christie said of Manning, the Giants' quarterback, while guest-hosting the "Boomer & Carton" morning show on WFAN 660-AM in New York City. The New Jerswy governor also compared Manning to his older brother, legendary former NFL quarterback Peyton Manning. "Could you ever imagine Peyton being involved in this?" Christie asked. "No, definitely not. Peyton's smarter." The New York Post reported Thursday that the email was included in a court filing in Bergen County Superior Court in a three-year-old civil racketeering lawsuit filed by three collectors against Manning, the Giants, the team's equipment manager, team co-owner John Mara, and memorabilia company Steiner Sports. In the email, sent April 27, 2010, Manning asked Giants head equipment manager Joe Skiba for "two helmets that can pass as game used," according to the report. Manning had been asked by his marketing agent, Alan Zucker, to produce equipment under a memorabilia contract he had with Steiner Sports. One of the suit's plaintiffs said he paid $4,300 for a helmet said to be worn during the Giants' 2007 season that led to a Super Bowl victory. Now, the plaintiff claims, it's a "$4,000 paperweight." A trial is set to begin Sept. 25. Christie, a former U.S. attorney, said Friday that it's unlikely Manning would ever face criminal charges. But, he said, the issue "could affect the whole season." "The Giants participated in this as well, so John Mara's going to have to open the checkbook," the governor said. "Now there's all kinds of ramifications for the Giants as a brand. Are they a lying cheating franchise?" Christie -- who is famously a fan of the Dallas Cowboys, one of the Giants' rivals -- added that the Giants' involvement is "an open question." "I'm not saying that John Mara knew," he said. The Giants defended both Manning and the organization in a statement. "The email, taken out of context, was shared with the media by an unscrupulous memorabilia dealer and his counsel who for years has been seeking to leverage a big payday," McCarter & English, the law firm representing the Giants in the matter, said. "The email predates any litigation, and there was no legal obligation to store it on the Giants server. Eli Manning is well known for his integrity and this is just the latest misguided attempt to defame his character." Christie criticized that statement, likening it to a "politician's non-answer." "The email was taken out of context? The context? It looks like it's a pretty complete back and forth," the governor said. "And by the way, they presumably have possession of the emails," he added. "They represent Eli. So, if it's out of context, put it in context. Release the other things where Eli's like, 'Just joking.'" "Give a good statement or shut up," Christie added about the statement. Karen Kessler, a spokeswoman for McCarter & English, declined to comment on Christie's remarks when reached by NJ Advance Media on Friday.

Link - ( New Window )

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So I'm sorry if I jumped the gun. But this is from a MOD over on the official Giants MB. He attends practices and is pretty close to the team. Here is what he wrote over there: Quote Originally Posted by YATittle1962 View Post I'm going to explain to all of you one time what is going on here Eli did nothing wrong Eli Manning has a deal with Steiner Sports to produce a certain amount of "game worn" equipment per year this amount that he is under contract to produce is ridiculous ... simply impossible to produce the amount to "game used" equipment within a 16 game season

If it's impossible to produce so much game worn stuff then don't sign a contract to produce so much game worn stuff.

they broadened the definition of "game used" to include pre-game warm-up jerseys, helmets, etc. BECAUSE everyone acknowledges it's impossible otherwise, include the Steiners of the world.

Anyone who says "pass" doesn't necessarily mean "pass off" needs to ask themselves why Eli didn't just say "two game worn helmets." Why use pass at all?

Then there's this exchange between Joe Skiba (Giants equipment manager) and a friend of his:

"Friend: My buddy was offered an eli game used helmet and jersey. Are these the bs ones eli asked you to make up because he didn't want to give up the real stuff?"

Joe Skiba: BS ones, you are correct."

http://deadspin.com/eli-manning-asked-giants-equipment-manager-for-helmets-1794320043

Fraud is fraud, regardless of how loathsome the person being cheated or how unfair the contract is. I am not happy about it either. But remember, we pretend to know what Eli is about because we like the way he acts on the field, and the charity work he does. The truth is, we know very little about who he (or anyone else) really is.

is such a corrupt piece of shit. WFAN should be ashamed that they give him a platform.

In comment 13428179 an_idol_mind said:

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Plenty of wealthy, giving people do stupid shit like this for reasons I can't begin to explain. In Eli's case, it's possible that he wanted to keep the actual articles for himself and thus made a dumb decision.

Perhaps not a perfect defense, just a mountain of credibility in his favor as someone who's spent 12 years living and working under a microscope and maintained a reputation above reproach.

If that doesn't buy you some credibility, what does?

In comment 13428653 bluepepper said:

Quote:

Quote: So I'm sorry if I jumped the gun. But this is from a MOD over on the official Giants MB. He attends practices and is pretty close to the team. Here is what he wrote over there: Quote Originally Posted by YATittle1962 View Post I'm going to explain to all of you one time what is going on here Eli did nothing wrong Eli Manning has a deal with Steiner Sports to produce a certain amount of "game worn" equipment per year this amount that he is under contract to produce is ridiculous ... simply impossible to produce the amount to "game used" equipment within a 16 game season If it's impossible to produce so much game worn stuff then don't sign a contract to produce so much game worn stuff.

Exactly, I'm not sure if Eli is guilty or not. However, don't sign a contract that you feel is too hard to agree to.

is whether those dealings were part of the Steiner contract, or if Skiba does some private "business." That would explain some of Brandon Jacobs recent comments destroying Skiba and not Manning.

remind me of Pats fans discussing Spygate and Deflate Gate. I hope I'm wrong, but the email doesn't look good.