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New York Giants 2017 NFL Draft Preview: OFFENSIVE TACKLE

Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 10:16 am
*Please Note Cam Robinson (OT grade 81) and Forrest Lamp (OT grade 80) will be in the OG/C post.

WHERE THEY STAND

A first round pick a left tackle. A first round pick at left guard. And a 2nd round pick at center. All since 2014 with some considerable money thrown in to the free agency pool as well. All of those resources and the NYG offensive line played like a bottom third unit in 2016. The running lanes weren’t there and Manning’s mental security in the pocket was never quite there, and rightfully so. Even though the offense is host to a bevy of short passes with 3-5 step drop backs, he was too often scaembling for his life or even worse, rushing himself in to poor throws. I have been very critical of how this line has been built and I still believe it is the one thing that will hold this team back as a whole.



TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS

1 – Conor McDermott – 6’8/307 – UCLA: 80

Summary: Fifth year senior. Two time 2nd team all Pac 12 selection and 2-plus year starter. Was a big time high school basketball player, winning a Mr. Basketball award in 2011 as a senior. McDermott has tools that don’t come around very often. He is a better athlete that he is on tape, but lacks the confidence to trust it. He bails on his technique too often and will make him look horrific at times. If he can be put in to the right system and really hone in on strength gains, there is a potential here that most tackles simply do not have. He is a risk, but one with a high potential reward.

*I’m aware there isn’t anyone out there with a #1 ranking on McDermott. While I do like him and the upside, it is likely more a result of just not liking this OT class as a whole. For the record, Robinson and Lamp were graded out above him, but I am keeping them in the OG group. McDermott had an awful, awful game against a healthy Myles Garrett and I think that performance unfairly stook to him in some peoples eyes. What I saw late in the year was an enormous frame with plenty of room for growth that had a violent initial punch and really athletic footwork. In time, I think he is a quality starting LT.

Upside Pro Comparison: Nate Solder - NE



2 – Garrett Bolles – 6’5/297 – Utah: 79

Summary: Spent one year at the FBS level after a dominating two-year junior college run. Bolles had a very rocky teenage stage of his life, but is more than a few years removed from it and appears to be on track. His athleticism and hand strength are among the best in this class, respectively. His progression will need to come once he gets in to an NFL strength and conditioning program and that does take time, something that may go against the soon to be 25 year old. In a weak tackle class, however, Bolles could be the top prospect.

*This is an interesting situation, on that carries an equal amount of risk and potential reward. Bolles certainly appears to have his head on straight enough. The issues he has had off the field don’t bother me too much nor does his age. He has the tools you want to work with and there may not be a more aggressive, angry player in this entire group. But there is a ton of sloppiness to his game that will be exploited in the league and he simply needs to get more core strength. He’s a gamble, that’s for sure.

Upside Pro Comparison: Joe Staley - SF



3 – Ryan Ramczyk – 6’6/310 – Wisconsin: 79

Summary: Fourth year senior that sat out the 2015 season because of transferring to Wisconsin from Division III Wisconsin-Stevens Point. Started every 2016 contest and earned 1st Team All Big 10 honors. In his one season at the FBS level, Ramczyk played at a level that may very well put him at the top of this year’s offensive line class. He will have to prove his hip is fully healed and ready to go, however. If those medicals check out, the body control, size, and fluid technique is enough to label him a potential week one starter.

*The fact this kid only played for one year at the Division I level is bothering me. The fact he has a bad hip AND shoulder coming in to the league is bothering me. It’s hard to ignore those two when considering his upside. Ramczyk is such a smooth operator and with the uniform he wore in college, it’s hard not to think about Joe Thomas when scouting him. While I don’t see the physical upside of an elite tackle, there is a natural sense of ability with him that makes you feel comfortable despite the red flags. Probably a safer pick than Bolles, but with less potential.

Upside Pro Comparison: Joe Thomas - CLE



4 – Will Holden – 6’7/311 – Vanderbilt: 78

Summary: Fifth year senior ended his career with 37 consecutive starts and a 2nd team all SEC nomination. Has experience at both tackle spots and could likely offer something as a guard in the NFL. While his strength is questionable at times, Holden showed the ability to anchor and stay on his man more often than not. He can handle any version of a defensive lineman. He may not have ideal measureables or athleticism, but he is a guy that plays with reliable technique that will add the needed strength to his large frame in time. Holden will be a starter sooner rather than later.

*One of my favorite day 2 prospects in the class that some people are considering a day 3 guy. Holden quietly but consistently was one of the top OL in the SEC over the past two seasons. Like Ramczyk, I think there is a lack of top tier physical ability and potential but you know what you’re getting. Very smart, very repeatable player that can be the immediate 6th lineman on a team with versatility and the upside of being a starter anywhere within a year.

Upside Pro Comparison: Ja’Wuan James - MIA



5 – Taylor Moton – 6’5/319 – Western Michigan: 78

Summary: Fifth year senior with four years of starting experience. Primarily a right tackle, but did start for the entire 2015 season at right guard. Earned a First Team All MAC honors after he made the move back to right tackle in 2016. Moton may not have the ideal footwork and fluidity to play outside in the NFL, but his power presence and hand strength can make up for some shortcomings. It’s possible his ideal future is inside at guard, where a team can take advantage of his elite power and strength. He will need to continue to work on his foot speed and reaction time before he can be trusted.

*I graded Moton as both a guard and tackle and he ended up with the same number at both. I can understand those that say he is a guard-only, but there are certain things he can’t do well enough inside that would bother me. As a tackle, Moton has the ability but doesn’t seem to always trust it. When he has ducks lined up, Moton is as dominating as anyone in this class. He has some of the strongest hands and can anchor against NFL power right now. The foot speed won’t ever be a strength but he can hide it well enough.

Upside Pro Comparison: Andrew Whitworth - LAR



6 – Andreas Knappe – 6’8/325 – Connecticut: 76

Summary: Fifth year senior that took over the starting right tackle job halfway through 2014 and never looked back. Despite not earning any postseason accolades, Knappe was one of the most consistent offensive linemen in the conference in 2016. He originally came from Denmark and was put on a fast learning and adjustment curve during his redshirt season. His upside was always something that jumped off the screen but it looked like it really started to come together in 2016. Knappe has all the measureables you want in a tackle. His techniques and body control appear to be easy and repeatable. He is a smart, hard working kid. Everything is lined up for this kid to start in the league within a year or two with big upside.

*One of the most overlooked, underrated players in the class when considering his long term upside. Knappe is more raw in comparison to a lot of the players in this group, but I think there is more to come from him than most. His arrow is pointing straight up. There were games last year where I thought he could make the case for being on the same level as the top guys in this class. Consistency isn’t quite there but if you watch him at the end of 2016 as opposed to the beginning of 2015 and you’ll notice the big improvement. I think that path will continue.

Upside Pro Comparison: Marcus Gilbert - PIT



7 – Justin Senior – 6’5/331 – Mississippi State: 75

Summary: Fifth year senior with three years of starting experience, primarily at right tackle. Very bright kid off the field. Hails from Canada and is projected as their top prospect as of right now. Senior will more than likely opt for NFL, at least for the start of his pro career. He is an overlooked tackle in this class that does all the little things right and has succeeded against some of the toughest edge talent the nation had to offer. While he does need to improve his lower body and core strength, there are plenty of reasons to state why he is a starting caliber right tackle.

*I don’t think he would ever pass up on the NFL for Canada, but I guess it is something that needs to be looked in to. Senior caught my eye hard this year. He has THE body of a right tackle and we aren’t talking about a guy that couldn’t handle SEC athleticism. He is an all around, very well balanced player. I liked him in Mobile, too. There is a part of me that wanted to throw him higher up, but the grade is the grade. He can be a starter at RT early, in my opinion. Some teams are looking at him as a RG too.

Upside Pro Comparison: Mitchell Schwartz - KC



8 – Adam Bisnowaty – 6’5/305 – Pittsburgh: 74

Summary: Fifth year senior that started all four years after his redshirt. Missed some time early in his career. Manned the left tackle spot and was named 1st Team All ACC in 2015 and 2016. Bisnowaty is an interesting case because he showed flashes of both top and bottom tier over the past two seasons. He passed a few of the eyeball tests weekly when it came to knee bend, aggression, and run blocking. However his up and down execution as a pass blocker gives off the notion he may be best suited inside in a zone blocking scheme at either guard or center. He has a style of play that could excel in that role.

*Early in the 2016 season, scouts were talking about Bisnowaty as being the top guy in this class. Potential top 10 overall type. It’s easy to see why because of his easy movement out of his stance and ability to mirror a defender with excellent lower half balance and quickness. He did suffer an injury somewhere around the midpoint of the season that made his tape look weak in the second half, but even at full strength I never quite saw it from him. He didn’t move guys. More of an absorber rather than an attacker. Too easily thrown around. Those things bother me as much as a guy with really slow feet. I think he may be best suited for backup swing duty.

Upside Pro Comparison: Justin Britt - SEA



9 – David Sharpe – 6’6/343 – Florida: 74

Summary: Junior entry. Two year starter at left tackle for the Gators that may need to make a move inside in the NFL. His size and easy power are very attractive, ever-present traits. His foot speed and leverage issues will be exposed on a play by play basis however if he doesn’t get them corrected.

*The initial look at Sharpe and you start to think Jonathan Ogden. Just so massive and so powerful that it seems impossible for anyone to simply move around him. Then the initial look at his foot speed and you wonder if he could ever hack it during a preseason game. Sharpe is going to be a bit of a project but there is some natural ability and talent here that you won’t find often. And in the SEC, he was more than OK. If he can develop some understanding and consistency with his lower half, he can be a dominant RT.

Upside Pro Comparison: Moses Morgan - WAS



10 – Antonio Garcia – 6’6/302 – Troy: 73

Summary: Fifth year senior with four years of starting experience. An ever-improving left tackle-caliber athlete that did not allow a sack in over 900 snaps his senior season. Garcia brings it every play from an effort and intensity approach, but his execution is very shaky. He is a developmental type player that has attractive tools and tape, but is simply behind the curve when it comes to core strength and technique.

*In an offensive tackle class that is overall just so weak, there are some people that have Garcia near the top of the group. This year more than ever, it simply seems like depending on the team, it could be one of 5-6 guys that are selected as the top tackle. Garcia is mean, nasty, and athletic. A gamer. He just needs to be tuned up and strengthened. Maybe a year or two away from competing.

Upside Pro Comparison: Matt Kalil - CAR



11 – Joseph Dieugot – 6’6/294 – Florida International: 73

Summary: Fifth year senior and three year starter. Earned Honorable Mention All Conference USA honors in 2016. Joseph is a raw talent that still has a ways to go when it comes to strength development, but there are tools here worth taking a second look at. He has the length and foot speed to go with quality technique and level of play. His arrow is pointing up.

*My favorite under the radar tackle. Still being graded out as a day 3 prospect and if I had to make a prediction on where he goes, it’s likely undrafted. I helped get him to the Shrine game and he was the most impressive left tackle there by a long shot. I bet he would have performed well at the Senior Bowl as well. Tall and lanky, needing of more bulk, Joseph moves with a sense of control and understanding that you won’t see from a lot of project-tackles. He isn’t powerful, but I wouldn’t call him a push over. I think he has starter potential down the road.

Upside Pro Comparison: Jason Peters - PHI




12 – Roderick Johnson – 6’7/299 – Florida State: 72

Summary: Junior entry. 31 straight starts and the two time winner of the Jacobs Blocking Trophy, given to the ACC’s top offensive lineman. Johnson has the frame and tool set to excite coaches and scouts alike, but his performance was so up and down, back and forth. His main issues revolve around strength and technique, two things that can be developed. There is upside with him, but also many holes.

*Again, another guy that some scouts love. Nobody is going to tell you he is pro-ready, it’s simply not true. He has some game tape that is up there with some of the worst in the class. But there are also stretches where he appears to be ready for NFL left tackle duty tomorrow. His tools are solid, but he needs to be honed in a bit. The lack of body control and balance after starting for 3 years is alarming.

Upside Pro Comparison: Manelik Watson - DEN



13 – Dan Skipper – 6’10/309 – Arkansas: 71

Summary: Four year starter with experience at both tackle spots and guard. Ended his career with First Team All SEC and 2nd Team All American honors. Has been the leader of that offensive line for two years and was known as Mr. Reliable. Consistent techniques and awareness led him to rarely being flagged. While his ability won’t jump off the screen, the fact that he wins much more often than he loses will grab attention. Also blocked several field goals over his career. Projects as a versatile backup.

*He may never be a starter, but Skipper would be a great guy to have backing up all four spots (not center). He is a technician that plays smart, but angry. Blue collar guy that you know will work hard and take on whatever is thrown at him. He is an interesting athlete that will always have to struggle with leverage, but he proved he could get the job done for 4 seasons in the SEC. Pro style offense. Something needs to be said for that. I’ll take a Skipper as my 6th OL any day even though I know the upside is limited.

Upside Pro Comparison: David Diehl - RET



14 – Nick Callender – 6’5/325 – Colorado State: 71

Summary: Fifth year senior, 2+ years of starting experience at left tackle. Honorable Mention All Pac 12. The body control and knee bend that I look for are there, just lacks some of the power presence. Somewhat reminiscent of Ty Sambrailo from a couple years ago that many liked, except I think Callender has more upside. Some can view him as a tackle, some as a guard. But as his size with his foot speed and easy knee bend, he should be given a shot at backup LT duty.

*Another one of my day three sleepers. Callender does a lot of little things right and well. Very repeatable movement and technique, strong hands. Smart player that I think can make a roster early as a versatile backup and if he develops in to what I think he can, you could have yourself a starting left tackle here.

Upside Pro Comparison: David Bakhtiari - GB



15 – Zach Banner – 6’8/353 – USC: 69

Summary: Fifth year senior. Also spent a year on the USC basketball team. Capped his career off with a First Team All Pac 12 honor. Three year starter with experience at both tackle spots. Struggles with speed and leverage defenders, but the frame alone is enough to get Banner a second look. If his lower body flexibility and agility can improve just a little, there is a high upside here.

*You can make the argument this guy is so big, that it won’t matter how slow and heavy his feet are. Getting around him is a chore. However in the NFL, we know better. Banner has some pro-traits already. If he really gets his hands on you, its over. But man, he is a bad mover and he comes in to the league with hips that are about 10 years older than him. Maybe willing to take a shot on him very late because of the upside should his footwork and speed improve.

Upside Pro Comparison: Jon Runyan - RET



BEST OF THE REST

16 – Sam Tevi – 6’5/311 – Utah: 69
17 – Javarius Leamon – 6’7/332 - South Carolina State:68
18 – Chad Wheeler – 6’7/306: 68
19 – Jerry Ugokwe – 6’7/321 – William & Mary: 68
20 – Jylan Ware – 6’8/295 – Alabama State: 65
21 – Julie’n Davenport – 6’7/318 - Bucknell: 66
22 – Jon Heck – 6’7/300 – North Carolina: 65
23 – Brad Seaton – 6’7/310 – Villanova: 64
24 – Jonah Pirsig – 6’9/326 – Minnesota: 64
25 – Daniel Brunskill – 6’5/273 – San Diego State: 63



NYG APPROACH

As I have said for awhile now, none of the names on this list are worth considering at #23. When I post the rest of the OL grades, there are a couple of guys in there worth discussing. But adding any of the names on this list early is simply adding what NYG already has plenty of, question marks along the OL. I don’t think OT should be completel ignored, but I think it would be wise to wait until day three to approach any of the names on this list. There are some sleepers here that I am confident can out-perform names that will be chosen in front of them if they get enough time. The one guy I would consider strongly AND a guy that I think will be there in rounds 3-4 is McDermott. He has tools, footwork, technique and played in a scheme that asked him to do a lot. Drafting him in that area would not put any pressure of him competing for a spot right away, as I think he needs a year to bulk up. He would be a nice safety net should Flowers prove in year 3 he can’t hack it outside. In addition, it may be nice to see what happens to Flowers if someone was brought in and put on his heels in line.


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RE: This  
Milton : 4/17/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13431223 AcidTest said:
Quote:
Robinson: Can he play LT? He also has character issues.
He doesn't have character issues. By all accounts he interviewed well.
Here's a recent interview - ( New Window )
RE: RE: This  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/17/2017 11:32 am : link
In comment 13431232 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13431223 AcidTest said:


Quote:


Robinson: Can he play LT? He also has character issues.

He doesn't have character issues. By all accounts he interviewed well. Here's a recent interview - ( New Window )


yeah - but apparently Sy doesn't think he qualifies as a Tackle
No love for Erik Magnuson?  
Klaatu : 4/17/2017 11:34 am : link
Or will you have him with the OGs?
RE: RE: RE: This  
Milton : 4/17/2017 11:37 am : link
In comment 13431235 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13431232 Milton said:


Quote:


In comment 13431223 AcidTest said:


Quote:


Robinson: Can he play LT? He also has character issues.

He doesn't have character issues. By all accounts he interviewed well. Here's a recent interview - ( New Window )



yeah - but apparently Sy doesn't think he qualifies as a Tackle
It's not that he doesn't think he qualifies as a tackle, it's that he gives him a higher grade as a guard. I think the Giants will view him as a tackle and give him a very high grade. That's their history. They loved Leonard Davis as a tackle both in the draft and when he became a free agent, but the teams he played for used him at guard.
If the Giants were to draft Robinson...  
Milton : 4/17/2017 11:39 am : link
Would he already be the best left tackle on the team or would it still be Pugh?
I like the idea of a day 3 guy  
AnnapolisMike : 4/17/2017 11:43 am : link
if the none of these guys are NFL ready. Use the first and second on guys who are not going to ride the bench for their first two years.

ST Existing online?  
mushroom : 4/17/2017 12:04 pm : link
I know it is a very busy time of the year but could you elaborate on your comment where you state that you are very critical on how the Giants line was built? Is it the players ability,their style of play vs the Giants scheme,how each players style meshes with one another,etc.
ST = SY  
mushroom : 4/17/2017 12:05 pm : link
Dam autocorrect
Sy re: Ryan Ramczyk  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 4/17/2017 12:10 pm : link
I've read that some scouts are questioning that he loves the game. Have you heard any of this as well?

Also, one scouting report I read showed how he is often beaten with an inside spin move. They showed multiple clips of him getting beat that way. Could that be from the injury he played through? Could he be taught to play that better from a technique standpoint?
Dion Dawkins from Temple  
Giantsfan79 : 4/17/2017 1:33 pm : link
Sy, obviously you don't have him ranked in your top 25. I only ask because the NY Daily News published a list of 5 tackles who may interest the Giants and he was listed as the dark horse second round pick. Would like your take on that take. Thanks
Lamp  
Hilary : 4/17/2017 1:35 pm : link
Forest Lamp is 23 on GBN draft board. Putting Lamp and Fluker on the right side of the line will restore or help restore the run game and make defending OBJ and Marshall much more difficult. Also will take a lot of pressure off of the defense by keeping the ball longer.
RE: Dion Dawkins from Temple  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13431394 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
Sy, obviously you don't have him ranked in your top 25. I only ask because the NY Daily News published a list of 5 tackles who may interest the Giants and he was listed as the dark horse second round pick. Would like your take on that take. Thanks


I have him at OG
RE: Sy re: Ryan Ramczyk  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13431282 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
I've read that some scouts are questioning that he loves the game. Have you heard any of this as well?

Also, one scouting report I read showed how he is often beaten with an inside spin move. They showed multiple clips of him getting beat that way. Could that be from the injury he played through? Could he be taught to play that better from a technique standpoint?


I have't heard anything like that, no.

Regarding the inside spin move...that is partially what I was speaking about above in response to someone else's comment about me saying he needed more experience.

I don't think he saw enough guys in college with versatile approaches to pass rushing, whereas he will see that weekly in the NFL. That is one of the reasons why I think he would have benefitted from staying at school another year
RE: ST Existing online?  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13431273 mushroom said:
Quote:
I know it is a very busy time of the year but could you elaborate on your comment where you state that you are very critical on how the Giants line was built? Is it the players ability,their style of play vs the Giants scheme,how each players style meshes with one another,etc.


More about player selection. I think they simply chose the wrong guys and had them valued/graded too high
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13431158 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
is Giants going OL your worst case scenario for them in round 1?


I wouldn't say that. I would be ok with one of 2 guys (Robinson/Lamp) in round 1. I think there will be a better player available, however. I would love to be guaranteed McDermott can be had in round 3.
Sy'56  
est1986 : 4/17/2017 1:51 pm : link
Do you have any sense on how the Giants grade players, particularly OL? Do you know or have a feeling they will be along the same lines as you, or is it more likely they are very much different? Not sure if that question came out right.
Sy, for a draft supposedly without top OTs, it's interesting that  
yatqb : 4/17/2017 1:54 pm : link
you've indicated that the upside of three of the OTs are Solder, Staley and Thomas...heck, even Kalil. That's not a bad group. Is that very optimistic, or is the potential there for these guys?
RE: Sy, for a draft supposedly without top OTs, it's interesting that  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13431441 yatqb said:
Quote:
you've indicated that the upside of three of the OTs are Solder, Staley and Thomas...heck, even Kalil. That's not a bad group. Is that very optimistic, or is the potential there for these guys?


As I always say...don't get too caught up in the comparisons. Any player can have elite upside, you know? Even a frail 6th round QB from Michigan.

The comparisons have more to do with style of play and tools.
Got it. Thanks, Sy.  
yatqb : 4/17/2017 2:02 pm : link
.
RE: Sy'56  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 2:02 pm : link
In comment 13431435 est1986 said:
Quote:
Do you have any sense on how the Giants grade players, particularly OL? Do you know or have a feeling they will be along the same lines as you, or is it more likely they are very much different? Not sure if that question came out right.


Not exactly. I mean I have spent years studying players and noting who NYG has taken both in the FA market and the draft...so I do usually have a sense who they may like. But even then, it's an educated guess at best.
Thanks Mr.Sy -  
capone : 4/17/2017 2:24 pm : link
I'm very surprised you have Banner listed ahead of Wheeler...saw allot of USC and Banner is not 1/2 the athlete that Wherler is ... thank you for Sharing all of your work it is terrific
Jerry Ugokwe  
annexOPR : 4/17/2017 2:27 pm : link
your thoughts Sy? He's quickly become 1 of "my guys" and I'd much rather take a day 3 shot on a player like him vs reach to fill a need early.
RE: Thanks Mr.Sy -  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 2:54 pm : link
In comment 13431506 capone said:
Quote:
I'm very surprised you have Banner listed ahead of Wheeler...saw allot of USC and Banner is not 1/2 the athlete that Wherler is ... thank you for Sharing all of your work it is terrific


Wheeler just has no presence. He can't knock anyone backwards.
RE: Jerry Ugokwe  
Sy'56 : 4/17/2017 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13431514 annexOPR said:
Quote:
your thoughts Sy? He's quickly become 1 of "my guys" and I'd much rather take a day 3 shot on a player like him vs reach to fill a need early.


He is an interesting guy. Has tools but doesn't move smoothly. Very manufactured, unsure of himself, raw. Worth the late round flier, I get it. He can hit people and there are gifts, plays the game well. But he is a 2-3 year project at least.
Per Sy's grades, 3 OT players are late first rd/early 2nd rd players  
PatersonPlank : 4/17/2017 3:33 pm : link
And there may be a OG or two added. Offensive line is not a reach when we pick, in fact the value matches up well.
wow!  
old man : 4/17/2017 4:05 pm : link
The best guy bails on technique too often, # 2 will be 25 at season start, and #3 is coming off surgery.
Makes you want to go D in rd#1,and take one in #2, even if he projects as a better G.
I still think Lamp could factor as a LT.  
Rjanyg : 4/17/2017 4:31 pm : link
Robinson may as well. McDermott is interesting as your top Tackle. If we could get him in round 3/4 that would be cool.
Sy  
Andy in Boston : 4/17/2017 4:48 pm : link
any chance all or most of these olineman slip into the 2nd? This class is really taking a beating in the press and with the analysts, I wonder if we only see 1 olineman taken in the 1st round....or maybe Lamp. With such strong TE, RB and CB classes, they could all get pushed up, pushing the QB's and OL down. Thoughts?
RE: RE: Jerry Ugokwe  
annexOPR : 4/17/2017 7:41 pm : link
In comment 13431567 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13431514 annexOPR said:


Quote:


your thoughts Sy? He's quickly become 1 of "my guys" and I'd much rather take a day 3 shot on a player like him vs reach to fill a need early.



He is an interesting guy. Has tools but doesn't move smoothly. Very manufactured, unsure of himself, raw. Worth the late round flier, I get it. He can hit people and there are gifts, plays the game well. But he is a 2-3 year project at least.


yeah I feel like a lot of his "weaknesses" are due to lack of experience/coachable ... I'd love to land him on day 3 and develop. definitely won't be ready to contribute early, but he's got all the tools to work with.
Here's one thing I definitely agree with you on..  
prdave73 : 4/17/2017 8:12 pm : link
"I have been very critical of how this line has been built and I still believe it is the one thing that will hold this team back as a whole."

And if they don't fix this quick, we might see last year's results..
RE: RE: This  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/17/2017 8:28 pm : link
In comment 13431232 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13431223 AcidTest said:


Quote:


Robinson: Can he play LT? He also has character issues.

He doesn't have character issues. By all accounts he interviewed well. Here's a recent interview - ( New Window )

He absolutely has character issues. You don't accidentally find yourself in a car with a stolen handgun if you're walking the straight and narrow. We get it, you're a fan of his, but you're really being entirely too dismissive of something that the Giants won't overlook.
Thanks Sy  
lono801 : 4/17/2017 10:06 pm : link
All my UCLA friends are in love with McDermott...they claim nothing but upside...

Guess I know what I'm doing tonight...

What a great time of year!
RE: This  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/17/2017 10:35 pm : link
In comment 13431223 AcidTest said:
Quote:
is fantastic. You and Dave are killing it.

I think the Giants will draft a developmental day three OT, somebody who can potentially play LT if Flowers doesn't work out. The two most likely are Knappe and Dieugot. Reese has failed with multiple day three developmental OL, but I don't think that will stop him from trying again. Every year is different.

I think people may well be surprised at how defensive the early rounds will be for the Giants. An edge rusher and a 3T DT are the most likely early picks IMO. That means one or two of Bowser, Davis, Walker, Willis, or Wormley.

The OL all have bigger question marks:

Robinson: Can he play LT? He also has character issues.
Bolles: Great feet, but needs to get stronger.
Ramczyk: One year of D1 football, and is coming off hip surgery.

So the two most likely are Dave's favorite OT sleeper and Sy's favorite OT sleeper? Way to step out on the ledge there.
RE: RE: This  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/17/2017 10:39 pm : link
In comment 13432025 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13431223 AcidTest said:


Quote:


is fantastic. You and Dave are killing it.

I think the Giants will draft a developmental day three OT, somebody who can potentially play LT if Flowers doesn't work out. The two most likely are Knappe and Dieugot. Reese has failed with multiple day three developmental OL, but I don't think that will stop him from trying again. Every year is different.

I think people may well be surprised at how defensive the early rounds will be for the Giants. An edge rusher and a 3T DT are the most likely early picks IMO. That means one or two of Bowser, Davis, Walker, Willis, or Wormley.

The OL all have bigger question marks:

Robinson: Can he play LT? He also has character issues.
Bolles: Great feet, but needs to get stronger.
Ramczyk: One year of D1 football, and is coming off hip surgery.


So the two most likely are Dave's favorite OT sleeper and Sy's favorite OT sleeper? Way to step out on the ledge there.

I'll add that I think the most likely project OT for the Giants, knowing the particular measurables they value, is Davenport, IMO.
RE: Cam Robinson character issues  
Milton : 4/18/2017 7:08 am : link
In comment 13431870 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
He absolutely has character issues. You don't accidentally find yourself in a car with a stolen handgun if you're walking the straight and narrow. We get it, you're a fan of his, but you're really being entirely too dismissive of something that the Giants won't overlook.
I'm not saying he's Little Lord Fauntleroy, but a 20-year old black kid (or white kid for that matter) in Louisiana in possession of an unregistered handgun that turns out was stolen is not in and of itself cause for concern.

I'm not saying it doesn't demand due diligence, but in one sense it's a positive because an incident like this gives the Giants a window into how Robinson would deal with something similar during his pro career. Does he get overly defensive? Does he lie about it? Is he contrite, remorseful? Shit happens, it's how you deal with it that says a lot about your character.

How did Dave Diehl respond to the police and media following his drunk driving accident and how did Kareem McKenzie respond after his marijuana arrest compared to how Plaxico responded after the shooting incidents he was involved in (there were two of them btw).

And there is no reason to believe that Robinson's answers weren't satisfactory. Word was he interviewed well at the combine and in TV interviews he comes off as well-mannered, mature, and intelligent.

p.s.--If there were reason to believe that Robinson was the one who stole the gun it would be an issue, but if that had been the case, the Louisiana DA would've pursued it rather than dismiss the whole thing with a joke as he did...
Louisiana DA explains reasons he won't prosecute - ( New Window )
'is not in and of itself cause for concern'...  
Torrag : 4/18/2017 8:57 am : link
False. It's definitely a cause for concern.
To my eyes, Will Holden can't pass protect at all.  
Andy in Halifax : 4/18/2017 8:59 am : link
Surprised to see him so high on your list.
RE: 'is not in and of itself cause for concern'...  
Milton : 4/18/2017 9:56 am : link
In comment 13432206 Torrag said:
Quote:
False. It's definitely a cause for concern.
Why? It's a cause for questioning, but if the answers are all acceptable, no harm, no foul.

Either the Giants were satisfied with his answers or they weren't. And none of us know which. But that's true of every player the Giants interview. Unless we hear something through the grapevine, we don't know who interviewed well and who didn't. All we can say about Cam Robinson is that we know what some of the questions must've been.

I don't know who your favorite player is in the draft but chances are he smoked weed in college and owns a gun. And you have no idea how his interview went with the Giants. There's no reason to believe it went any better than Robinson's interview.
thanks Sy, and thanks for the TE preview as well.  
Victor in CT : 4/18/2017 10:29 am : link
like you, the most disturbing thing to me is the Giants poor OL performance despite the expenditure of high picks in recent years. I hope they don't reach for a project.
RE: RE: Good point  
Carson53 : 4/18/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13431142 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13431125 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


regarding Ramcyzk..the injuries bother me more than the 1 year of division 1 thing. JPP played 1 year at South Florida before coming out.



Slightly different situation because JPP was a talent. His ability and tools rivaled NFL'ers....Not sure we can say the same thing about Ramczyk. I understand your notion though.



I agree with Sy, have mentioned this myself about both Ramcyzk and Bolles. It is a quantum leap for OL,
after only playing one year at a FBS school
Hey Sy  
Carson53 : 4/18/2017 11:01 am : link
how about Garcia, I thought he would rank a bit higher than
about 10th? I know Mayock seems to like him, wonder if he would be around in the second round.
I am just thinking out loud with that last part.
RE: RE: 'is not in and of itself cause for concern'...  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/18/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13432291 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13432206 Torrag said:


Quote:


False. It's definitely a cause for concern.

Why? It's a cause for questioning, but if the answers are all acceptable, no harm, no foul.

Either the Giants were satisfied with his answers or they weren't. And none of us know which. But that's true of every player the Giants interview. Unless we hear something through the grapevine, we don't know who interviewed well and who didn't. All we can say about Cam Robinson is that we know what some of the questions must've been.

I don't know who your favorite player is in the draft but chances are he smoked weed in college and owns a gun. And you have no idea how his interview went with the Giants. There's no reason to believe it went any better than Robinson's interview.

I won't dispute the weed part, but if you think "chances are he... owns a gun" is even remotely accurate, I think it's just your bias toward Robinson clouding your judgment.

I stand by the fact that guns don't just happen to be stolen and end up in someone's possession without them having some questionable character traits or at a minimum surrounding themselves with people who do. You don't go through the proper channels to purchase and license a handgun and have it end up being stolen. And if you're procuring a gun through elicit means, that alone is a red flag.

I really don't see how you can deny that, and to say that some interview questions can wipe that away with "no harm, no foul" is really being biased on the issue. And it's not just "owns a gun"; it's owns a stolen gun. "Stolen" is not a throwaway adjective.
RE: RE: RE: 'is not in and of itself cause for concern'...  
Milton : 4/18/2017 11:32 am : link
In comment 13432411 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

I stand by the fact that guns don't just happen to be stolen and end up in someone's possession without them having some questionable character traits or at a minimum surrounding themselves with people who do. You don't go through the proper channels to purchase and license a handgun and have it end up being stolen. And if you're procuring a gun through elicit means, that alone is a red flag.

I really don't see how you can deny that, and to say that some interview questions can wipe that away with "no harm, no foul" is really being biased on the issue. And it's not just "owns a gun"; it's owns a stolen gun. "Stolen" is not a throwaway adjective.
It's a legitimate question: how did you come into possession of a stolen handgun? And I'm sure it was asked of him. Here's one possible answer: my uncle gave it to me for protection.

This is Monroe, Louisiana we are talking about, not Great Neck, Long Island. The fact that he possessed a gun does not strike me at all as uncommon or a reason to question his character. The fact that it was stolen is reason for questioning him on how he came into possession of it. Only the Giants know if they found his answers unsatisfactory, but if there were more to it I think it would've been leaked to the press at some point given the fact that he's interviewed with just about every team in the league. The Louisiana D.A. didn't seem to think it was an issue. Unless I hear more on it, I'm gonna assume it wasn't an issue as well.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 'is not in and of itself cause for concern'...  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/18/2017 12:23 pm : link
In comment 13432460 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13432411 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



I stand by the fact that guns don't just happen to be stolen and end up in someone's possession without them having some questionable character traits or at a minimum surrounding themselves with people who do. You don't go through the proper channels to purchase and license a handgun and have it end up being stolen. And if you're procuring a gun through elicit means, that alone is a red flag.

I really don't see how you can deny that, and to say that some interview questions can wipe that away with "no harm, no foul" is really being biased on the issue. And it's not just "owns a gun"; it's owns a stolen gun. "Stolen" is not a throwaway adjective.

It's a legitimate question: how did you come into possession of a stolen handgun? And I'm sure it was asked of him. Here's one possible answer: my uncle gave it to me for protection.

This is Monroe, Louisiana we are talking about, not Great Neck, Long Island. The fact that he possessed a gun does not strike me at all as uncommon or a reason to question his character. The fact that it was stolen is reason for questioning him on how he came into possession of it. Only the Giants know if they found his answers unsatisfactory, but if there were more to it I think it would've been leaked to the press at some point given the fact that he's interviewed with just about every team in the league. The Louisiana D.A. didn't seem to think it was an issue. Unless I hear more on it, I'm gonna assume it wasn't an issue as well.

The D.A. said he wasn't going to ruin the kids' lives over this. He made a judgment call that seemed to recognize exactly how sensitive this issue is and he chose to err on the side of protecting their opportunity to move on from it. That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't think it was an issue - in fact, it could just as easily be a tacit acknowledgment that the best way to ensure these kids didn't repeat this type of behavior might be to preserve their pathway to going pro.

Again, that doesn't make it a nonissue, IMO.
I was very impressed with Robinson  
bigfish703 : 4/18/2017 1:39 pm : link
in the LSU game. He is surprisingly quick in pulling, both L & R. He seems to have a little trouble with edge rushers but anyone his size would have that problem. He is a very large man with immense legs, and that translates to a lot of power.

I would be happy with either him or Lamp if the Giants have the guts to pick an OL in the 1st Rd again. As Marlon Brando said in On The Waterfront, that would definitely make them "a contenda."
Robinson  
Dragon : 4/19/2017 6:40 am : link
Not sure what a player has to do during his time at the OLT position that Robinson has not done. Sometimes we are not sure what a player can do but Robinson has done everything he was asked to. Not sure why the talk about him being better at OG when he has never played that position and he checks all the boxes that teams are looking for at OLT. The only real issue I see with drafting him is does he replace our present OLT or ORT from day one?
'Why?'...  
Torrag : 4/19/2017 7:50 am : link
Because stolen guns don't magically appear under the seat of a guy driving his car while he's toking on his chronic. Tjis is so obvious you need to just stop.
RE: 'Why?'...  
Milton : 4/19/2017 9:55 am : link
In comment 13433805 Torrag said:
Quote:
Because stolen guns don't magically appear under the seat of a guy driving his car while he's toking on his chronic. This is so obvious you need to just stop.
I need to stop responding to people who have such a severe case of confirmation bias that they are incapable of understanding what I've been spelling out quite clearly from the get-go. That the incident requires questioning and as long as his answers are satisfactory, there is no "character" issue.

Does Haasan Reddick have character issues?
Quote:
Had off-campus fight in 2015 and was able to avoid a trial by agreeing to be placed in a diversionary program.
People don't "magically" get into fights. Eli Manning was arrested and jailed briefly for being drunk and disorderly. You don't "magically" become drunk and disorderly, should the Giants have removed him from their draft board because he wasn't a "clean" player.

Incidents require questioning. If the answers are satisfactory you move on to the next set of questions. If they aren't, you drop him down your draft board. There is no reason to believe Cam Robinson's answers weren't satisfactory. Admit it, you just don't like him as a prospect and are using this incident as an excuse to comfort yourself in that opinion.

Confirmation bias is a dangerous thing!
'as long as his answers are satisfactory'...  
Torrag : 4/19/2017 10:59 am : link
False again. You can only do so much damage control in this situation. It has an effect on your evaluation no matter what you answer. It goes to judgement and character.

The entire situation stinks right down to the tone of the DA and police. They were protecting 'The Program'. Yeah no one got shot but the authorities didn't get answers. Why? because they didn't want them. That's my read on it and the Giants aren't idiots. They've been doing this a long time and know which way the wind is blowing. Is this young man Aaron Hernandez? I don't think so but the bottomline is this incident will factor into their thinking imo. He's using drugs and possessing stolen firearms. How can it not? To what degree it impacts his final grade only the Giants know.

I've been through this with you ten times. I'm not reposting the same thoughts over and over. You know the arguments and if you don't see it you're in denial because you've got a man crush on Robinson. That's also my read.

It's too bad really because I think he's the best RT and the only OL I have with a 1st Round grade without the character questions. I doubt the Giants will draft him knowing the facts that have been established.
RE: 'as long as his answers are satisfactory'...  
Milton : 4/19/2017 2:12 pm : link
In comment 13434101 Torrag said:
Quote:
You can only do so much damage control in this situation. It has an effect on your evaluation no matter what you answer. It goes to judgement and character.
Do you feel the same way about Haason Reddick?

Quote:
The entire situation stinks right down to the tone of the DA and police. They were protecting 'The Program'. Yeah no one got shot but the authorities didn't get answers. Why? because they didn't want them.
I'm not sure why a Louisiana D.A. would want to protect the Alabama program, but the bottomline is that he didn't have a case. It's a shame he made that remark about not prosecuting because he didn't want to ruin their lives over it when he also admitted he had no ability to prove the gun or the marijuana in the car were Robinson's. Yes, the circumstantial evidence was more than enough to convict him in the court of public opinion, but not a court of law. And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not the "crimes" he is guilty of in the court of public opinion are all that meaningful. In my opinion, the fact that he smoked weed in college and was in possession of a gun that had been stolen is no big deal assuming he wasn't the one who stole the gun and he never tested positive for marijuana during his time at Alabama or in preparation for the combine. The NFL makes it easy for any responsible toker to avoid testing positive.

Quote:
Joe Guerriero, the defense attorney for the two players, told AL.com there were actually four players in the car on the night of the arrest and that police had a weak case against his clients.

"There was no justifiable grounds for prosecution under any evidence rule that exists," Guerriero said. "It's basic 101 Law that there were no grounds for prosecution based on what happened."
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