You are probably right, IMO. He can surely play guard & maybe even tackle. Pugh could be gone after this season and Richburg & Fluker have no 2018 contract.
RE: RE: I am beginning to get on the Lamp bandwagon
You are probably right, IMO. He can surely play guard & maybe even tackle. Pugh could be gone after this season and Richburg & Fluker have no 2018 contract.
Me as well. I was against the pick, but it's a solid choice, especially with so many of our OL being FA next year.
...you only draft offense at #23 if Fournette, Howard or Mike Williams drop(I'm not a McCaffrey guy). If that unlikely scenario doesn't happen you go defense. Do otherwise and you're leaving talent on the board.
...you only draft offense at #23 if Fournette, Howard or Mike Williams drop(I'm not a McCaffrey guy). If that unlikely scenario doesn't happen you go defense. Do otherwise and you're leaving talent on the board.
I hope you are just forgetting about Forrest Lamp in this draft. He is absolutel a 1st round target for us. And if hes not, thats just not right.
...for me he's strictly an OG/RT. No idea how the Giants see him that's just my opinion. Very similar to Pugh with the short arms and not projecting to LT.
We have umpteen guys on the roster that can or may be able to play RT...we don't need another one. We need an insurance policy at LT and that isn't Lamp, which devalues him a bit on my board. He's not in play for me at #23.
We aren't drafting Lamp. Lamp is Pugh Part 2. Nearly the same exact player. I think Cam Robinson is the guy if we draft a tackle but I honestly feel we'll stay true to our board because we really don't have a MAJOR need. Its either BPA or trade back. And if we go BPA there's a good chance that will be a defensive player.
And I believe him. I feel like he really does have a lot of connections in the building.
I could not agree more with him on Engram. He's basically an oversized wide receiver. This team needs a two way, in line, dual-threat tight end. Don't get me wrong; Engram is a good player, just not a good fit.
That's been my position for 6 weeks now. It's been true all along. Unless they draft him to convert him to be Marshall's long term replacement. He's fast and agile enough to play boundary WR although I don't love his hands.
But I have a difficult time seeing Reese pass on Njoku at 23 if he's still on the board. Based on many mocks, Njoku would likely be BPA among the players these writers project to still be available. I think it's more likely JR has a hard on for Njoku than he'd actually pass on him.
and it reeks of a smokescreen. Why would they completely rule out a top TE like that? Unless they think he'll be a god awful blocker but I haven't seen any evidence of that being the case for him. The guy looks like a stud. If they can nab either him or Howard at 23, I'm sure it'll happen. The guy was also a Shockey/Giants fan and I'm sure he'd love to be here. That means a little something too.
Relax big guy. There are almost no sure things in the Draft, especially when it comes to unfinished prospects like Njoku. Yes he's uber athletic but he's most definitely a work in progress as a football player on multiple fronts.
Don't understand the argument against Njoku and Engram even
We run a West Coast offense. We talk about attacking the seam but our signature tight end play is the 3 yard out. Donnell would catch it most of the time but then provide zero fight and get tackled for a 3 yard gain. Hopefully, he wouldn't fumble. Tye would do better. He would catch it consistently and would often fight for extra yards but didn't have a lot of agility to turn up field quickly. Most of the time he would get caught short of the chains. Neither put up much of a fight blocking.
I have trouble thinking that Engram/Njoku would block any worse in season 1 then Donnell/Tye. The difference is they both have the athletic ability to turn up field quicker on the out and convert 1st downs.
Attacking the seam with the tight end is 1 way to beat a cover 2. The other way is to draw the linebackers up and/or force a safety into the box. Engram/Njoku can do that.
I also don't buy into the argument of having too many weapons. Marshall came here to win. Beckham would thrive even more (BIG PLAYS!) if there were other weapons surrounding him. A TE and Sheppard are too young to complain yet.
Relax big guy. There are almost no sure things in the Draft, especially when it comes to unfinished prospects like Njoku. Yes he's uber athletic but he's most definitely a work in progress as a football player on multiple fronts.
The one sure thing I know is you are up in the Mock Draft. Sorry, couldn't resist :)
Getting back to this thread, considering the flashes we saw from Adams and the depth at TE this year, I would be happy to not spend a first on Njoku if I am the Giants.
thanks I've been drinking tonight so I'll make my pick in the morning so there won't be any regrets. Unlike the last girl I brought home from the bar at 2am.
Like more of the inline TEs. Engram and Njoku aren't the types we usually target.
We seem to like guys who can block inline and have soft reliable hands who aren't afraid of the middle. We've won super bowls with those types.
OJ Howard would be the dream for us. We may even move up if he drops within striking distance. Inline big bodied guy who is also an athletic freak. Those are very hard to come by. He's potentially a Gronk.
and it reeks of a smokescreen. Why would they completely rule out a top TE like that? Unless they think he'll be a god awful blocker but I haven't seen any evidence of that being the case for him. The guy looks like a stud. If they can nab either him or Howard at 23, I'm sure it'll happen. The guy was also a Shockey/Giants fan and I'm sure he'd love to be here. That means a little something too.
I think it's B.S. too. Between his measurables and his age, Njoku is almost the very definition of a "Jerry pick".
RE: Don't understand the argument against Njoku and Engram even
We run a West Coast offense. We talk about attacking the seam but our signature tight end play is the 3 yard out. Donnell would catch it most of the time but then provide zero fight and get tackled for a 3 yard gain. Hopefully, he wouldn't fumble. Tye would do better. He would catch it consistently and would often fight for extra yards but didn't have a lot of agility to turn up field quickly. Most of the time he would get caught short of the chains. Neither put up much of a fight blocking.
I have trouble thinking that Engram/Njoku would block any worse in season 1 then Donnell/Tye. The difference is they both have the athletic ability to turn up field quicker on the out and convert 1st downs.
Attacking the seam with the tight end is 1 way to beat a cover 2. The other way is to draw the linebackers up and/or force a safety into the box. Engram/Njoku can do that.
I also don't buy into the argument of having too many weapons. Marshall came here to win. Beckham would thrive even more (BIG PLAYS!) if there were other weapons surrounding him. A TE and Sheppard are too young to complain yet.
One of the arguments against is simply that the Giants don't value the position like everyone wants them to. It's not so much about "having too many weapons". It's more about what the team would rather have. Like, a pass rush that doesn't depend on both DEs never getting hurt.
RE: RE: Don't understand the argument against Njoku and Engram even
We run a West Coast offense. We talk about attacking the seam but our signature tight end play is the 3 yard out. Donnell would catch it most of the time but then provide zero fight and get tackled for a 3 yard gain. Hopefully, he wouldn't fumble. Tye would do better. He would catch it consistently and would often fight for extra yards but didn't have a lot of agility to turn up field quickly. Most of the time he would get caught short of the chains. Neither put up much of a fight blocking.
I have trouble thinking that Engram/Njoku would block any worse in season 1 then Donnell/Tye. The difference is they both have the athletic ability to turn up field quicker on the out and convert 1st downs.
Attacking the seam with the tight end is 1 way to beat a cover 2. The other way is to draw the linebackers up and/or force a safety into the box. Engram/Njoku can do that.
I also don't buy into the argument of having too many weapons. Marshall came here to win. Beckham would thrive even more (BIG PLAYS!) if there were other weapons surrounding him. A TE and Sheppard are too young to complain yet.
One of the arguments against is simply that the Giants don't value the position like everyone wants them to. It's not so much about "having too many weapons". It's more about what the team would rather have. Like, a pass rush that doesn't depend on both DEs never getting hurt.
The "don't value the position" argument I think was tossed once Ben was hired. He absolutely values a TE in this O and logic dictates it is one that can be moved around and block a little at least. Engram is definitely that. So long as he is not asked to block a DE 1 on 1 consistently, I think he can handle kick outs and down blocks from time to time. The match up issues he would cause would more than justify him as a pick. He would almost make the Cover 2 that all but neutralized ODB for stretches obsolete. If we need to tighten up and run the ball, Adams can definitely block.
Also, I am calling disinformation here. It makes no sense to divulge that there is "no chance" of ________ being the pick.
without knowing who falls unexpectedly -- which happens every year. If, say, Watson falls to 23 the Giants may have the chance to trade down. We can all name guys and say "No way he'll be available at #23," but I bet if we polled this board we'd get around 25-27 names who are "sure to be gone." So somebody will be unexpectedly available, and somebody will be unexpectedly gone.
of you are having trouble with this. It absolutely fits Reese's M.O.
History tells us that the current regime is not inclined to take a TE that early, so why do we react to the suggestion that they aren't targeting Njoku with such skepticism?
Unless maybe we believe what we want to believe, regardless of evidence?
I think you are seriously overstating McAdoo's impact on draft strategy. I seriously doubt that the entire draft strategy was drastically altered for a rookie HC.
I think that the Giants got burned last year by the loose talk about who the Giants will or will not take. I think that they have done a much better job at not publicly focusing in on 1 or 2 players and this is another example of that smoke screen.
I think you are seriously overstating McAdoo's impact on draft strategy. I seriously doubt that the entire draft strategy was drastically altered for a rookie HC.
Well then...why do you hire MacAdoo as HC knowing that the system he comes from has athletic TEs and a reliance upon them as an integral part of their offense?
Dont act like the Giants arent opposed to it as an org. They drafted fairly high for TEs starting with Shockey and Shaincoe in successive years and then tried again with Robinson. Dont make it like its unheard of.
I think that the Giants got burned last year by the loose talk about who the Giants will or will not take. I think that they have done a much better job at not publicly focusing in on 1 or 2 players and this is another example of that smoke screen.
I honestly think the Giants had zero intention of drafting Floyd. Conk? Yes. Floyd didnt make sense
I think you are seriously overstating McAdoo's impact on draft strategy. I seriously doubt that the entire draft strategy was drastically altered for a rookie HC.
Well then...why do you hire MacAdoo as HC knowing that the system he comes from has athletic TEs and a reliance upon them as an integral part of their offense?
Dont act like the Giants arent opposed to it as an org. They drafted fairly high for TEs starting with Shockey and Shaincoe in successive years and then tried again with Robinson. Dont make it like its unheard of.
Shockey was 15 years ago and Shiancoe was a 3rd rounder, I don't get either player being a reason for this regime being prone to take TE high. What great TEs did McAdoo have in Green Bay?
I'd be fine with a TE but in regards to Njoku he may be too much of a project to take when there's other, more polished players at potentially more premier positions available.
...whose the last move TE the Giants drafted in Round 1? Or Round 2 for that matter? Macs 'West Coast' scheme is derived from his Green Bay days and they prefer a TE that can block in line, not just receivers. Hence their acquisition of Martellus. Jared Cook played at 6'5/255# before him and the list goes on. Engram doesn't fit the profile of what the Giants have coveted in the past or Macs experiences indicate he will value.
It should be noted I did say if we see him as a Boundary WR and a long term replacement of Marshall he could be a target. He's certainly fast and agile enough to transition there full time. He's really just a big receiver anyway. What's more his 'mediocre' blocking as a TE suddenly becomes above average as a WR.
Ellerson is a hybrid full back / TE regarded mostly for his blocking. But in the films I've seen I think he's a much better receiver than we're giving him credit for (but, of course, highlights don't tell the full story).
Adams is going to experience the huge second year gain we expect and maybe that puts him in the mix.
I personally think we're a lot stronger at line backer and TE than we most people think.
My inclination is to keep thinking OL, DL. Just a darn shame that this year the OL prospects are flawed and we're lightly to get as much talent late as we'd get in the first.
That puts me back to DL by the process of elimination. I've heard warnings about the "motor" on the DE from MI. but at 295 with high atleticism and long arms he reminds me of JPP.
The fact that we spend so much energy and cyber-ink on something we virtually know nothing about and contribute nothing to, is kinda sick. Or sad..."empty people", living life vicariously.
NYG cancelled their private meeting yesterday with Njoku, worth noting.
Skipping both doesn't mean no offensive playmaker at #23, but rather perhaps the value isn't there. Think bigger picture roster puzzle rather than hyped up prospect.
RE: Engram's a project, a hybrid TE/WR in progress
NYG cancelled their private meeting yesterday with Njoku, worth noting.
Skipping both doesn't mean no offensive playmaker at #23, but rather perhaps the value isn't there. Think bigger picture roster puzzle rather than hyped up prospect.
I was under the impression that they cxld all their meetings yesterday. Not just Njoku.
I think you are seriously overstating McAdoo's impact on draft strategy. I seriously doubt that the entire draft strategy was drastically altered for a rookie HC.
Well then...why do you hire MacAdoo as HC knowing that the system he comes from has athletic TEs and a reliance upon them as an integral part of their offense?
Dont act like the Giants arent opposed to it as an org. They drafted fairly high for TEs starting with Shockey and Shaincoe in successive years and then tried again with Robinson. Dont make it like its unheard of.
Who are these TEs that were the centerpiece of Green Bay's offense? I don't know where you're getting that from. They had one guy, jermichael Finley, who was a third round draft pick. And when injuries cut his career short he was replaced by nondescript players.
Ellerson is a hybrid full back / TE regarded mostly for his blocking. But in the films I've seen I think he's a much better receiver than we're giving him credit for (but, of course, highlights don't tell the full story).
Adams is going to experience the huge second year gain we expect and maybe that puts him in the mix.
I personally think we're a lot stronger at line backer and TE than we most people think.
My inclination is to keep thinking OL, DL. Just a darn shame that this year the OL prospects are flawed and we're lightly to get as much talent late as we'd get in the first.
That puts me back to DL by the process of elimination. I've heard warnings about the "motor" on the DE from MI. but at 295 with high atleticism and long arms he reminds me of JPP.
The fact that we spend so much energy and cyber-ink on something we virtually know nothing about and contribute nothing to, is kinda sick. Or sad..."empty people", living life vicariously.
You are definitely underrating Ellison.
RE: I'd be damned disappointed if they picked Lamp
because it would likely be to replace Pugh, rather than pay him $10M per on an extension.
Not seeing the OL value at #23.
Well if Pugh, Richburg & Fluker do not re-sign for 2018+, the best guy on the Oline today would be Flowers. The Giants may reach for an Oline guy in the 1st and then again later.
I think that the Giants got burned last year by the loose talk about who the Giants will or will not take. I think that they have done a much better job at not publicly focusing in on 1 or 2 players and this is another example of that smoke screen.
I honestly think the Giants had zero intention of drafting Floyd. Conk? Yes. Floyd didnt make sense
I'm with you on this one.
We will never know, but I remain unconvinced that Floyd was their "target".
They seem to have had interest in Floyd, but I suspect they would have taken Apple or Conklin over him.
If we stay at 23, I think it's Lamp.
You are probably right, IMO. He can surely play guard & maybe even tackle. Pugh could be gone after this season and Richburg & Fluker have no 2018 contract.
Quote:
as best OL prospect for Giants at number 23.
You are probably right, IMO. He can surely play guard & maybe even tackle. Pugh could be gone after this season and Richburg & Fluker have no 2018 contract.
Me as well. I was against the pick, but it's a solid choice, especially with so many of our OL being FA next year.
I hope you are just forgetting about Forrest Lamp in this draft. He is absolutel a 1st round target for us. And if hes not, thats just not right.
We have umpteen guys on the roster that can or may be able to play RT...we don't need another one. We need an insurance policy at LT and that isn't Lamp, which devalues him a bit on my board. He's not in play for me at #23.
Howard
Cook
Bowser
Wormley
I could not agree more with him on Engram. He's basically an oversized wide receiver. This team needs a two way, in line, dual-threat tight end. Don't get me wrong; Engram is a good player, just not a good fit.
Sure.
Ok.
I have trouble thinking that Engram/Njoku would block any worse in season 1 then Donnell/Tye. The difference is they both have the athletic ability to turn up field quicker on the out and convert 1st downs.
Attacking the seam with the tight end is 1 way to beat a cover 2. The other way is to draw the linebackers up and/or force a safety into the box. Engram/Njoku can do that.
I also don't buy into the argument of having too many weapons. Marshall came here to win. Beckham would thrive even more (BIG PLAYS!) if there were other weapons surrounding him. A TE and Sheppard are too young to complain yet.
The one sure thing I know is you are up in the Mock Draft. Sorry, couldn't resist :)
Getting back to this thread, considering the flashes we saw from Adams and the depth at TE this year, I would be happy to not spend a first on Njoku if I am the Giants.
We seem to like guys who can block inline and have soft reliable hands who aren't afraid of the middle. We've won super bowls with those types.
OJ Howard would be the dream for us. We may even move up if he drops within striking distance. Inline big bodied guy who is also an athletic freak. Those are very hard to come by. He's potentially a Gronk.
I think it's B.S. too. Between his measurables and his age, Njoku is almost the very definition of a "Jerry pick".
I have trouble thinking that Engram/Njoku would block any worse in season 1 then Donnell/Tye. The difference is they both have the athletic ability to turn up field quicker on the out and convert 1st downs.
Attacking the seam with the tight end is 1 way to beat a cover 2. The other way is to draw the linebackers up and/or force a safety into the box. Engram/Njoku can do that.
I also don't buy into the argument of having too many weapons. Marshall came here to win. Beckham would thrive even more (BIG PLAYS!) if there were other weapons surrounding him. A TE and Sheppard are too young to complain yet.
One of the arguments against is simply that the Giants don't value the position like everyone wants them to. It's not so much about "having too many weapons". It's more about what the team would rather have. Like, a pass rush that doesn't depend on both DEs never getting hurt.
Quote:
We run a West Coast offense. We talk about attacking the seam but our signature tight end play is the 3 yard out. Donnell would catch it most of the time but then provide zero fight and get tackled for a 3 yard gain. Hopefully, he wouldn't fumble. Tye would do better. He would catch it consistently and would often fight for extra yards but didn't have a lot of agility to turn up field quickly. Most of the time he would get caught short of the chains. Neither put up much of a fight blocking.
I have trouble thinking that Engram/Njoku would block any worse in season 1 then Donnell/Tye. The difference is they both have the athletic ability to turn up field quicker on the out and convert 1st downs.
Attacking the seam with the tight end is 1 way to beat a cover 2. The other way is to draw the linebackers up and/or force a safety into the box. Engram/Njoku can do that.
I also don't buy into the argument of having too many weapons. Marshall came here to win. Beckham would thrive even more (BIG PLAYS!) if there were other weapons surrounding him. A TE and Sheppard are too young to complain yet.
One of the arguments against is simply that the Giants don't value the position like everyone wants them to. It's not so much about "having too many weapons". It's more about what the team would rather have. Like, a pass rush that doesn't depend on both DEs never getting hurt.
The "don't value the position" argument I think was tossed once Ben was hired. He absolutely values a TE in this O and logic dictates it is one that can be moved around and block a little at least. Engram is definitely that. So long as he is not asked to block a DE 1 on 1 consistently, I think he can handle kick outs and down blocks from time to time. The match up issues he would cause would more than justify him as a pick. He would almost make the Cover 2 that all but neutralized ODB for stretches obsolete. If we need to tighten up and run the ball, Adams can definitely block.
Also, I am calling disinformation here. It makes no sense to divulge that there is "no chance" of ________ being the pick.
History tells us that the current regime is not inclined to take a TE that early, so why do we react to the suggestion that they aren't targeting Njoku with such skepticism?
Unless maybe we believe what we want to believe, regardless of evidence?
Nah.
Well then...why do you hire MacAdoo as HC knowing that the system he comes from has athletic TEs and a reliance upon them as an integral part of their offense?
Dont act like the Giants arent opposed to it as an org. They drafted fairly high for TEs starting with Shockey and Shaincoe in successive years and then tried again with Robinson. Dont make it like its unheard of.
I honestly think the Giants had zero intention of drafting Floyd. Conk? Yes. Floyd didnt make sense
Quote:
I think you are seriously overstating McAdoo's impact on draft strategy. I seriously doubt that the entire draft strategy was drastically altered for a rookie HC.
Well then...why do you hire MacAdoo as HC knowing that the system he comes from has athletic TEs and a reliance upon them as an integral part of their offense?
Dont act like the Giants arent opposed to it as an org. They drafted fairly high for TEs starting with Shockey and Shaincoe in successive years and then tried again with Robinson. Dont make it like its unheard of.
Shockey was 15 years ago and Shiancoe was a 3rd rounder, I don't get either player being a reason for this regime being prone to take TE high. What great TEs did McAdoo have in Green Bay?
I'd be fine with a TE but in regards to Njoku he may be too much of a project to take when there's other, more polished players at potentially more premier positions available.
It should be noted I did say if we see him as a Boundary WR and a long term replacement of Marshall he could be a target. He's certainly fast and agile enough to transition there full time. He's really just a big receiver anyway. What's more his 'mediocre' blocking as a TE suddenly becomes above average as a WR.
Ellerson is a hybrid full back / TE regarded mostly for his blocking. But in the films I've seen I think he's a much better receiver than we're giving him credit for (but, of course, highlights don't tell the full story).
Adams is going to experience the huge second year gain we expect and maybe that puts him in the mix.
I personally think we're a lot stronger at line backer and TE than we most people think.
My inclination is to keep thinking OL, DL. Just a darn shame that this year the OL prospects are flawed and we're lightly to get as much talent late as we'd get in the first.
That puts me back to DL by the process of elimination. I've heard warnings about the "motor" on the DE from MI. but at 295 with high atleticism and long arms he reminds me of JPP.
The fact that we spend so much energy and cyber-ink on something we virtually know nothing about and contribute nothing to, is kinda sick. Or sad..."empty people", living life vicariously.
Skipping both doesn't mean no offensive playmaker at #23, but rather perhaps the value isn't there. Think bigger picture roster puzzle rather than hyped up prospect.
Skipping both doesn't mean no offensive playmaker at #23, but rather perhaps the value isn't there. Think bigger picture roster puzzle rather than hyped up prospect.
I was under the impression that they cxld all their meetings yesterday. Not just Njoku.
Not seeing the OL value at #23.
Quote:
I think you are seriously overstating McAdoo's impact on draft strategy. I seriously doubt that the entire draft strategy was drastically altered for a rookie HC.
Well then...why do you hire MacAdoo as HC knowing that the system he comes from has athletic TEs and a reliance upon them as an integral part of their offense?
Dont act like the Giants arent opposed to it as an org. They drafted fairly high for TEs starting with Shockey and Shaincoe in successive years and then tried again with Robinson. Dont make it like its unheard of.
Who are these TEs that were the centerpiece of Green Bay's offense? I don't know where you're getting that from. They had one guy, jermichael Finley, who was a third round draft pick. And when injuries cut his career short he was replaced by nondescript players.
Ellerson is a hybrid full back / TE regarded mostly for his blocking. But in the films I've seen I think he's a much better receiver than we're giving him credit for (but, of course, highlights don't tell the full story).
Adams is going to experience the huge second year gain we expect and maybe that puts him in the mix.
I personally think we're a lot stronger at line backer and TE than we most people think.
My inclination is to keep thinking OL, DL. Just a darn shame that this year the OL prospects are flawed and we're lightly to get as much talent late as we'd get in the first.
That puts me back to DL by the process of elimination. I've heard warnings about the "motor" on the DE from MI. but at 295 with high atleticism and long arms he reminds me of JPP.
The fact that we spend so much energy and cyber-ink on something we virtually know nothing about and contribute nothing to, is kinda sick. Or sad..."empty people", living life vicariously.
You are definitely underrating Ellison.
Not seeing the OL value at #23.
Well if Pugh, Richburg & Fluker do not re-sign for 2018+, the best guy on the Oline today would be Flowers. The Giants may reach for an Oline guy in the 1st and then again later.
There is no precedent for a first round TE.
Anything can happen, but I don't think they are inclined to go TE. For better or worse, that's the situation.
There is no precedent for a first round TE.
Anything can happen, but I don't think they are inclined to go TE. For better or worse, that's the situation.
You're probably right but if the TE is graded very highly, they could shock us and grab the guy. They'd have to be impressed though.
Quote:
I think that the Giants got burned last year by the loose talk about who the Giants will or will not take. I think that they have done a much better job at not publicly focusing in on 1 or 2 players and this is another example of that smoke screen.
I honestly think the Giants had zero intention of drafting Floyd. Conk? Yes. Floyd didnt make sense
I'm with you on this one.
We will never know, but I remain unconvinced that Floyd was their "target".
They seem to have had interest in Floyd, but I suspect they would have taken Apple or Conklin over him.
It's all conjecture though.