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NFT: Why Phil Jackson needs to go...

trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 8:07 am
Pretty scathing sendup of the Jackson NYK era.

"When asked at his end-of-year talk what he liked from KP this season, Jackson said, in part, that he was proud of a game in which Porzingis didn’t take a 3 because “they’re a cheap way to get points.” WHY DON’T YOU WANT YOUR TEAM GETTING CHEAP POINTS, JACKSON?"
Phil Jackson Has Run the Knicks Into the Ground - ( New Window )
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doesn't matter  
giantfan2000 : 4/19/2017 10:12 am : link
it is Nolan that needs to sell the team

never going to win regardless of if jackson stays or goes
RE: RE: I think getting rid of Phil  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13433973 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13433884 Svengali said:


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Would be a huge mistake. Starting over again would be a bad move. We have to have a coaching staff and management in place for some consistency or this is going to happen over and over. The fans want to fire everybody so hold on to somebody and build some kind of culture.



But the culture that PHIL is building seems to be one of petty recriminations. A culture based on the personalities of the two heads of Knicksland -- Phil and Dolan -- is doomed to fail. They're two assholes. The culture in LA and CHI I think was more set by MJ and Kobe than Phil. Phil managed the stars, the stars managed everyone else.

Also, I think there is a lot to the premise of the Ringer piece that he cares more about proving that the Triangle is the key to basketball than he does seeing the Knicks win.


The guy who wrote "The Letter" exposed himself as an asshole, yet he's now the owner of defending NBA Champions. Why? Because of luck. Even the Warriors got lucky with Curry dropping to the seventh pick. (I'm no drafting wizard, but I sure as fuck would've taken Curry ahead of Flynn and Rubio at the time.) Is Sam Presti the same genius if Greg Oden isn't the number 1 pick and Durant is? Yes, Presti has shown himself to be really good at the job in other drafts, but luck is a indisputable part of being good in the NBA. The Knicks haven't been lucky at all. I love KP... I'd rather have KAT.
RE: Understandable Keith  
Keith : 4/19/2017 10:21 am : link
In comment 13433998 Deej said:
Quote:
I dont advocate firing or retaining him. But I'll note a few counterpoints:

1. I dont think that when we hired him that anyone expected him to alienate our players or the league's biggest star. The meddling with the coaches is also hurting the team. He's behaving like an asshole, and the fact that he is the incumbent head BB man is not an excuse for that.

2. The notion that he needs time is severely undercut by the fact that he has not, to date, undertaken any sort of long term plan. Rather, in at least 2 of the 3 seasons he has sold the team to fans as intended to be competitive. If we are now in a real rebuild, it's a pivot by him that is basically forced by the failure so far and the fact that we cant pull top UFAs, it's not the long simmering plan.


1. He's always been the type of guy to use the media to get his point across and motivate certain players to change. It certainly backfired this time. All that said though, I think it was a calculated move to get Melo to want to leave. Regarding Lebron...Eff him and his soapbox. I think you can certainly make a fair case that he's been acting like an ahole and it hasn't worked.

2. True to a point. Yes, he's attempted to make the team competitive, but he's also done that with an eye on the future. So he's put himself in a position to be able to pivot to a total rebuild. Again, I'll bring up the past few GM's who have attempted to be competitive, but sold off our future to make that happen. So when it didnd't work, there was no ability to pivot to a rebuild, they could just dig the hole deeper.
He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Elite Mobster #32 : 4/19/2017 10:24 am : link
He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.

He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Elite Mobster #32 : 4/19/2017 10:24 am : link
He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.

Chandler was a shell of himself when we traded  
Keith : 4/19/2017 10:25 am : link
him. We couldn't give away JR Smith and it's not like Shump has progressed like he should(or I thought he would). Not many of these small moves have worked, but none of them were crippling to our future in any way. Once we get rid of Melo, Phil can build this team around his types of guys. No excuses now.
RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:30 am : link
In comment 13434026 Elite Mobster #32 said:
Quote:
He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.


Chandler quit and stole checks in 2013-2014. JR Smith was such a headache that the Knicks needed to pair him with Shumpert just to get rid of him (despite JR having a REASONABLE contract). While I hated taking back Calderon in the Chandler deal, I had and still have zero problem with these 3 players being shipped off.
funny thing is  
nygiants16 : 4/19/2017 10:31 am : link
for as bad as phil has been the knicks future is brighter than it has ever been..

and whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..

but i can see what type of thread this is going to be so you gentleman have fun and have a good day
RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 10:40 am : link
In comment 13434041 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434026 Elite Mobster #32 said:


Quote:


He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.




Chandler quit and stole checks in 2013-2014. JR Smith was such a headache that the Knicks needed to pair him with Shumpert just to get rid of him (despite JR having a REASONABLE contract). While I hated taking back Calderon in the Chandler deal, I had and still have zero problem with these 3 players being shipped off.

so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.
defending Phil is some  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 10:44 am : link
next level homerism. So much of what's gone on here (running his silly triangle clinics, undermining the coach, battling his star player through the media) simply does not happen with other teams. That press conference last week was a joke and just showed just how lost he is. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a stellar combination of arrogance and incompetence in one person before. I'm said it a bunch of times, Phil knows more about basketball than most people on the planet. He knows nothing about running an NBA front office and building a roster.
Shumpert sucks  
giantsfan44ab : 4/19/2017 10:45 am : link
What trade value did he have? Richard Jefferson is a more valuable player than shumpert. Just think about that.
RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:48 am : link
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:
Quote:


so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.


Keeping people around who're quitters and assholes isn't in the best interest of any organization either. JR Smith was NEVER going to improve his value in this setting because his entire issue was non-basketball related.
RE: funny thing is  
trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13434043 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..


If we take out the Ewing years can you tell me when the Knicks haven't been rebuilding over the past 50 years? As far as I can tell, aside from the Ewing years, the Knicks haven't been a legitimate contender for an NBA title since the 70s. Maybe you're right and success is just around the corner but it's not like we haven't heard that before.
you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2017 10:51 am : link
worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.
RE: RE: funny thing is  
nygiants16 : 4/19/2017 10:53 am : link
In comment 13434085 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 13434043 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..




If we take out the Ewing years can you tell me when the Knicks haven't been rebuilding over the past 50 years? As far as I can tell, aside from the Ewing years, the Knicks haven't been a legitimate contender for an NBA title since the 70s. Maybe you're right and success is just around the corner but it's not like we haven't heard that before.


the definition of rebuilding is tearing it down building from scratch, when have the knicks ever done that?
I don't think Phil has been perfect  
Giant John : 4/19/2017 10:54 am : link
But I do feel the Knicks are in a better position now than anytime in the last 10 years. He inherited an absolute mess. No draft picks, cap hell and bad players. I though it would take 5 years to straighten out. Those problems have been resolved. we will be getting a good player this draft. I think things are looking better long term. I don't get all the BS.
RE: you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13434086 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.


The difference between me and you is IDGAF about press conferences. A press conference has never won a championship in any sport. Draft picks, OTOH, win most of the NBA championships. This team has been almost completely lacking in picks during Phil's tenure. It would be one thing if it was HIS fault they didn't have draft picks, but it's not.

Literally not one person would say Phil's tenure has been "good". However, I'm willing to give him these 3 draft picks and see where we are in 12 months. I don't see how that's being a homer unless you're one of these people who think Phil is the root cause of all evil.
I'll give him one more summer.  
bceagle05 : 4/19/2017 11:01 am : link
Circumstances (cap/roster/draft picks) didn't allow for a total rebuild, so he hitched his wagon to Carmelo and hoped for the best. It's pretty obvious he regrets doing that. If all he does is trade/release Melo, let Rose walk, draft a good prospect in the top 10, and find a solid role player with one of those second rounders, it will have been a highly productive offseason. I know he's been a disaster so far, but he's an intelligent human being - he HAS to see the draft is the only way out of this abyss.
RE: RE: funny thing is  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13434085 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 13434043 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..




If we take out the Ewing years can you tell me when the Knicks haven't been rebuilding over the past 50 years? As far as I can tell, aside from the Ewing years, the Knicks haven't been a legitimate contender for an NBA title since the 70s. Maybe you're right and success is just around the corner but it's not like we haven't heard that before.


I don't think you know what rebuilding is. The Knicks rebuilt once when Walsh took over. At no fault of his, he didn't rebuild the right way. He sold off everything and mortgaged the future to try and rebuild through FA, but that obviously didn't work. Other than that, we haven't been rebuilding at all before Phil. We've been trying for the quick fix, retool which has been a disaster.
This offseason is key for me in regards to judging Phil.  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:12 am : link
If he goes on a spending spree and gives guys long term deals, then I've seen enough. If he makes smart decisions with the space and adds players that we may be able to flip or could be key role players in a few years, then I'm on board.
RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Deej : 4/19/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:
Quote:

so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.


+1. Knicks have absolutely the most short-sighted fans. All players are assessed based on what they are this very moment. People declare with certainty what rookies will become. Guys who are not playing well suck and should be dumped ASAP.

TC's last year here he was a .143 WS48 player. So significantly better than average starter. The next season he was back over .200. Basically, should have been an all star (except you dont get allstar nods for defense).
I think Summer 2015 was a quasi-rebuild  
Deej : 4/19/2017 11:19 am : link
I dont think you can rebuild in one offseason unless you're trading off a lot of vets. But that offseason Phil signed Rolo to a nice contract, and then made a bunch of small acquisitions to preserve cap space and maybe get some trade pieces (didnt work out that way though). I didnt get the sense that the Summer of 2015 was about being terribly competitive for the 2015-16 season. Whereas the Noah and Rose deals in 2016-17 were just nonsense, win now moves.
Yeah he really hit the panic button last summer. It was odd.  
bceagle05 : 4/19/2017 11:22 am : link
Luckily it only cost us a couple of draft slots in the lottery, but the domino effect of losing Lopez and signing Noah turned out to be a huge negative.
Panic button?  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:26 am : link
He made calculated, somewhat low risk moves that didn't hurt the ability to pivot into a look at the future and rebuild.

The Rose deal played out as the worst case scenario. That scenario is creating cap space and losing Lopez and Grant which is no big deal at all. Certainly not a panic move.

Signing Lee was a solid move. He's got a fair deal and should be an asset to the organization. He fit a need, certainly not a panic move.

Signing Noah was the only move that could be considered a panic move. Phil believed that he was the missing piece and took a big chance. I was ok with signing Noah, just not more than 2 years. You can certainly make the case that this was a panic move.

All in all, he didn't panic last offseason. He made calculated risk moves that didn't all work out, but didn't hurt the future of this team either.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13434123 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:


Quote:



so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.



+1. Knicks have absolutely the most short-sighted fans. All players are assessed based on what they are this very moment. People declare with certainty what rookies will become. Guys who are not playing well suck and should be dumped ASAP.

TC's last year here he was a .143 WS48 player. So significantly better than average starter. The next season he was back over .200. Basically, should have been an all star (except you dont get allstar nods for defense).


There's a difference between a guy not playing well because he suffered a severe or nagging injury and a guy who's cashing checks and not giving requisite effort. It's one thing if a guy who normally shoots well has an off year shooting the ball. It's another when a guy whose game is so dependent on effort clearly and obviously rolled that effort back. Why would anyone expect someone who does something like that to improve in the same setting the next year? Why would you want to keep someone around who did something like that?

You might think Chandler's effort wasn't an issue that year. I did. Phil did. Tyson has made comments in reference to how Phil viewed him on the floor and in the locker room.
Why would someone expect him to give more effort?  
giantsfan44ab : 4/19/2017 11:31 am : link
Maybe going back to the team where he was the 2nd most important player in a championship under a top 3 coach would do it?
There's been some solid defensive players  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:34 am : link
on this team over the past few years that just didn't look like the same players on this squad. What do you attribute that to? Coaching? Melo? Circumstance? It's just weird.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 11:49 am : link
In comment 13434081 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:


Quote:




so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.



Keeping people around who're quitters and assholes isn't in the best interest of any organization either. JR Smith was NEVER going to improve his value in this setting because his entire issue was non-basketball related.

JR was 6th man of the year for a division winner. A little over a year later he needs to be moved at all costs? That's just dumb short-sighted nonsense.
RE: Yeah he really hit the panic button last summer. It was odd.  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 11:57 am : link
In comment 13434138 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Luckily it only cost us a couple of draft slots in the lottery, but the domino effect of losing Lopez and signing Noah turned out to be a huge negative.

Agree. Phil basically admitted the Rose trade was in part a result of his exit meeting with Melo last year where Melo stated his case for a dynamic PG. So out goes a decent PG in Grant and a solid/reliable center in Lopez and in comes Rose/Noah. Funny how a year later Phil has gone from making big moves like that to appease Melo to now trying forcing him out the door. Melo is the same player today that he was in that meeting last year. In other words, Phil has no plan.
RE: RE: you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2017 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13434098 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434086 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.



The difference between me and you is IDGAF about press conferences. A press conference has never won a championship in any sport. Draft picks, OTOH, win most of the NBA championships. This team has been almost completely lacking in picks during Phil's tenure. It would be one thing if it was HIS fault they didn't have draft picks, but it's not.

Literally not one person would say Phil's tenure has been "good". However, I'm willing to give him these 3 draft picks and see where we are in 12 months. I don't see how that's being a homer unless you're one of these people who think Phil is the root cause of all evil.


far from the only difference my friend. 3 years, 3 coaches, 166 losses, underming the coach (except for his butt boy Rambis), complete organizational diysfunction, signing Melo with a no move clause, then trashing him on social media, bad signings, fleeced on trades, but yeah, you're not a homer, just an idiot.
RE: RE: RE: you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 12:03 pm : link
In comment 13434189 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13434098 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434086 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.



The difference between me and you is IDGAF about press conferences. A press conference has never won a championship in any sport. Draft picks, OTOH, win most of the NBA championships. This team has been almost completely lacking in picks during Phil's tenure. It would be one thing if it was HIS fault they didn't have draft picks, but it's not.

Literally not one person would say Phil's tenure has been "good". However, I'm willing to give him these 3 draft picks and see where we are in 12 months. I don't see how that's being a homer unless you're one of these people who think Phil is the root cause of all evil.



far from the only difference my friend. 3 years, 3 coaches, 166 losses, underming the coach (except for his butt boy Rambis), complete organizational diysfunction, signing Melo with a no move clause, then trashing him on social media, bad signings, fleeced on trades, but yeah, you're not a homer, just an idiot.


Is that necessary? You're incapable of disagreeing with someone without name-calling?
Rebuild, restock, whatever...  
trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 12:09 pm : link
Look, I don't know how to run a basketball team and I fully admit that I don't follow the Rangers or the Knicks like I did when I was a younger man. Maybe I don't what rebuilding is. Ok. But this idea that Phil Jackson and DW were the only guys to try to "rebuild" the Knicks seems like a bit of a snipe hunt to me. We can quibble about "rebuilding" or fixing on the fly or whatever. The bottom line is that the Knicks haven't been a serious contender for an NBA title for the better part of 50 years. And based on what I see, again, as a casual fan, it doesn't look to me like Phil Jackson is turning the Knicks into a great organization. The players are said to be "revolting", KP is rumored to be disheartened, the coach sucks, the team sucks, Jackson seems to have tipped his hand regarding Melo, after a bizarre media campaign against him during the season, Oakley was dragged out of MSG, Jimmy D is yelling at fans in the street, I mean, it's all in the article. This is rebuilding?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 12:14 pm : link
In comment 13434170 Enzo said:
Quote:


JR was 6th man of the year for a division winner. A little over a year later he needs to be moved at all costs? That's just dumb short-sighted nonsense.


Your first sentence didn't mean anything anyore... it would've been great if it did. They had to give the Cavs someone else in order to take JR off of their hands. That's how non-existent the market was for JR Smith. JR Smith got fined and benched, yet his behavior hadn't changed.

I generally agree that you don't want to trade a player when their value is at it's lowest. But the problem becomes what is the expectation of a guy raising his value and will it be at the expense of keeping him around the organization longer? It think the argument for letting Chandler stick around and raise his value is stronger than it was with JR Smith.
The point is  
Deej : 4/19/2017 12:17 pm : link
that the market for JR Smith was that low at that fixed point in time. However, they could have waited half a season or a season and tried trading him again, or righting his ship.

Knicks constantly trade guys at the bottom of their value, attaching assets to guys who could be assets themselves given a little time.
As I always say Phil was brought in here for one reason  
Stu11 : 4/19/2017 1:41 pm : link
to give the franchise credibility. 3 years later we have gone from the 2nd or 3rd biggest joke to the absolute laughing stock of the league. The Sacramento Kings get more respect than us. let that sink in for a second. The Porzingis pick was superb. Keeping all of our future 31's? you get credit for that? seriously? My pet Chimpanzee can accomplish that. It's time to get a solid young basketball mind in here that knows how to build a franchise in 2017. Not someone who can coach teams with some of the greatest NBA players to walk the earth to championships.
He should get credit for that.  
Keith : 4/19/2017 1:53 pm : link
He should get credit for KP. He should get credit for Hernangomez who looks to be a solid starting caliber player. He should get credit for some of the young role players who may be able to contribute later on. He should get credit for trying to build a winning culture, but keeping all of his assets at the same time. Yes, anyone CAN do that, but nobody has done it for 20 years.
Jackson  
TyreeHelmet : 4/19/2017 2:03 pm : link
I truly don't understand how any fan can defend Jackson at this point. Things are getting worse, not better. He's made 2 good moves in 3 years. KP was a great pick and Willy was a good 2nd round pick. But please spare me how this roster is filled with young promising players. They are 2 young players that most likely play the same position. And I don't understand fans that say Noah's contract doesn't hurt the teams future. Paying Noah and Lance Thomas 25% of the salary the cap the next 3 years hurts you. I don't care how good of a "mentor" Noah is.

In 3 years, he has yet to make a good trade. What Phil is supposed to be good at is coaching and developing a strong culture. That has been a disaster. For all his bullshit talk about system basketball and the triangle, none of it is reflected on the court. And defensively they couldn't be much worse. Blame Melo all you want, but there's plenty of teams who build good defenses with one below average defender in the lineup. Also, I'm not sure another team in the league could make KP disgruntled after 2 seasons, but Jackson has achieved that.

There is no doubt that Phil knows basketball. But his downfall is his lack of work ethic, arrogance and stubbornness. He has every excuse in the book for his failures and doesn't learn from his mistakes. And most importantly, he refuses to adapt and evolve. His comments about 3 pointers and screen and roll are idiotic and show you the game has passed him by.

What are Pat Riley and Gregg Popovich's systems? They both have tailored and changed their system to their rosters. They learn and adopt and win because of it. Jackson cares more about proving the triangle can work and receiving credit than actually winning games.
RE: Jackson  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2017 2:06 pm : link
In comment 13434366 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
I truly don't understand how any fan can defend Jackson at this point. Things are getting worse, not better. He's made 2 good moves in 3 years. KP was a great pick and Willy was a good 2nd round pick. But please spare me how this roster is filled with young promising players. They are 2 young players that most likely play the same position. And I don't understand fans that say Noah's contract doesn't hurt the teams future. Paying Noah and Lance Thomas 25% of the salary the cap the next 3 years hurts you. I don't care how good of a "mentor" Noah is.

BRAVO!!! Well said.
In 3 years, he has yet to make a good trade. What Phil is supposed to be good at is coaching and developing a strong culture. That has been a disaster. For all his bullshit talk about system basketball and the triangle, none of it is reflected on the court. And defensively they couldn't be much worse. Blame Melo all you want, but there's plenty of teams who build good defenses with one below average defender in the lineup. Also, I'm not sure another team in the league could make KP disgruntled after 2 seasons, but Jackson has achieved that.

There is no doubt that Phil knows basketball. But his downfall is his lack of work ethic, arrogance and stubbornness. He has every excuse in the book for his failures and doesn't learn from his mistakes. And most importantly, he refuses to adapt and evolve. His comments about 3 pointers and screen and roll are idiotic and show you the game has passed him by.

What are Pat Riley and Gregg Popovich's systems? They both have tailored and changed their system to their rosters. They learn and adopt and win because of it. Jackson cares more about proving the triangle can work and receiving credit than actually winning games.
RE: He should get credit for that.  
DieHard : 4/19/2017 2:12 pm : link
In comment 13434348 Keith said:
Quote:
He should get credit for KP. He should get credit for Hernangomez who looks to be a solid starting caliber player. He should get credit for some of the young role players who may be able to contribute later on. He should get credit for trying to build a winning culture, but keeping all of his assets at the same time. Yes, anyone CAN do that, but nobody has done it for 20 years.


Sure anyone can try. But the point is, is he REALLY building a winning culture and keeping all his assets? He's burned all bridges with Melo and will either end up getting rid of him for cents on the dollar, or he'll be stuck with him for a good while longer. He keeps insisting on a system that no one seems jazzed to play. The best player he's acquired (KP) is already disheartened and disenchanted. How does any of this help build a winning organization? If you're a half-decent free agent or vet, would you join this circus? (Of course, if you get Noah money, you might jump at it anyway.)

But this is all academic. Phil is merely the symptom of the disease. As long as Dolan is in charge, nothing is going to change, and as long as the money keeps piling in, he has no reason to.
RE: RE: He should get credit for that.  
TyreeHelmet : 4/19/2017 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13434391 DieHard said:
Quote:
In comment 13434348 Keith said:


Quote:


He should get credit for KP. He should get credit for Hernangomez who looks to be a solid starting caliber player. He should get credit for some of the young role players who may be able to contribute later on. He should get credit for trying to build a winning culture, but keeping all of his assets at the same time. Yes, anyone CAN do that, but nobody has done it for 20 years.



Sure anyone can try. But the point is, is he REALLY building a winning culture and keeping all his assets? He's burned all bridges with Melo and will either end up getting rid of him for cents on the dollar, or he'll be stuck with him for a good while longer. He keeps insisting on a system that no one seems jazzed to play. The best player he's acquired (KP) is already disheartened and disenchanted. How does any of this help build a winning organization? If you're a half-decent free agent or vet, would you join this circus? (Of course, if you get Noah money, you might jump at it anyway.)

But this is all academic. Phil is merely the symptom of the disease. As long as Dolan is in charge, nothing is going to change, and as long as the money keeps piling in, he has no reason to.


I can't stand Dolan but how is it his fault ? This is on Phil. He's being paid 3 to 4 times as much as any other exec in the league. The guy won't even scout in person. The only thing I blame Dolan for is not firing Phil.

Why not dangle that type of package at Presti, Uriji or Buford? Guys that have actually proven to build winning teams.
RE: RE: He should get credit for that.  
Keith : 4/19/2017 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13434391 DieHard said:
Quote:
In comment 13434348 Keith said:


Quote:


He should get credit for KP. He should get credit for Hernangomez who looks to be a solid starting caliber player. He should get credit for some of the young role players who may be able to contribute later on. He should get credit for trying to build a winning culture, but keeping all of his assets at the same time. Yes, anyone CAN do that, but nobody has done it for 20 years.



Sure anyone can try. But the point is, is he REALLY building a winning culture and keeping all his assets? He's burned all bridges with Melo and will either end up getting rid of him for cents on the dollar, or he'll be stuck with him for a good while longer. He keeps insisting on a system that no one seems jazzed to play. The best player he's acquired (KP) is already disheartened and disenchanted. How does any of this help build a winning organization? If you're a half-decent free agent or vet, would you join this circus? (Of course, if you get Noah money, you might jump at it anyway.)

But this is all academic. Phil is merely the symptom of the disease. As long as Dolan is in charge, nothing is going to change, and as long as the money keeps piling in, he has no reason to.


No, he has not built a winning culture. He needed to burn the bridge with Melo so that Melo will want to leave(at least that's my belief). No, FA's wont want to join this circus but that's ok with me because I don't want them signging FA's. Build through the draft. When we start to get better, people will want to join.

Spot on about Dolan, I agree.
RE: RE: RE: He should get credit for that.  
DieHard : 4/19/2017 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13434414 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13434391 DieHard said:


Quote:


In comment 13434348 Keith said:


Quote:


He should get credit for KP. He should get credit for Hernangomez who looks to be a solid starting caliber player. He should get credit for some of the young role players who may be able to contribute later on. He should get credit for trying to build a winning culture, but keeping all of his assets at the same time. Yes, anyone CAN do that, but nobody has done it for 20 years.



Sure anyone can try. But the point is, is he REALLY building a winning culture and keeping all his assets? He's burned all bridges with Melo and will either end up getting rid of him for cents on the dollar, or he'll be stuck with him for a good while longer. He keeps insisting on a system that no one seems jazzed to play. The best player he's acquired (KP) is already disheartened and disenchanted. How does any of this help build a winning organization? If you're a half-decent free agent or vet, would you join this circus? (Of course, if you get Noah money, you might jump at it anyway.)

But this is all academic. Phil is merely the symptom of the disease. As long as Dolan is in charge, nothing is going to change, and as long as the money keeps piling in, he has no reason to.



I can't stand Dolan but how is it his fault ? This is on Phil. He's being paid 3 to 4 times as much as any other exec in the league. The guy won't even scout in person. The only thing I blame Dolan for is not firing Phil.

Why not dangle that type of package at Presti, Uriji or Buford? Guys that have actually proven to build winning teams.


But Dolan not firing Phil is the main problem at this point. if you're an owner, there comes a time you have to say, "This is a shit show" and take steps to improve things. Either Dolan is deluded enough to think that Phil is doing a satisfactory job, or he just doesn't care and enjoys having someone else around to take all the hits.
I think the Garden exists in its own bubble.  
bceagle05 : 4/19/2017 2:44 pm : link
The dysfunction doesn't register because they probably just chalk it up to the disgruntled media (which is true, to an extent). Phil just tantalizes Dolan with some Zen bullshit basketball philosophy and they all continue on their way.
Dolan can fire Phil and he probably wouldn't get crap for it  
Keith : 4/19/2017 2:51 pm : link
but it wont change anything. We can't keep doing this. Just give Phil the appropriate time and then make a decision. 2 more years is a good timeframe to look back at everything and then make a decision. So far, there are some positives, but there are also some negatives to what Phil has done. Firing him isn't going to fix anything. It's just going to add more disfunction.
RE: I think the Garden exists in its own bubble.  
trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13434448 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
The dysfunction doesn't register because they probably just chalk it up to the disgruntled media (which is true, to an extent). Phil just tantalizes Dolan with some Zen bullshit basketball philosophy and they all continue on their way.


No doubt about it, MSG is very dysfunctional place. One of the ways that Sather was able to stick around for so long was that he would hide - literally hide - from Dolan. Its an ultra-messed up place and the fish absolutely stinks from the head down.
He's fireable now.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 3:24 pm : link
Plenty of reasons to do it.
RE: I said it when he signed: grat coach is no guarantee to become  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/19/2017 7:49 pm : link
In comment 13433878 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
a great exec. And to compound it, Jackson NEVER had to coach up a team from scratch. Bulls and Lakers were ready made to win. Zen Master my ass, he's just another full of shit ego maniac.


This. Like the triangle was why Jordan and Pippen were great.
RE: I said it when he signed: grat coach is no guarantee to become  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 9:46 pm : link
In comment 13433878 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
a great exec. And to compound it, Jackson NEVER had to coach up a team from scratch. Bulls and Lakers were ready made to win. Zen Master my ass, he's just another full of shit ego maniac.


It was never a guarantee, I think a lot of people understood that when it happened, but you certainly can't say Phil Jackson wasn't qualified to try the job when you consider what's going on in the NBA. There are also examples of things of this nature happening with other franchises and it IS working out. Hell, Daryl Morey wasn't a "basketball guy" but the Rockets have not had a losing record, in the Western Conference, since his time as General Manager.

How many years of coaching experience or teams built up from scratch does Jason Kidd have? He's doing okay for himself as a beginner coach. He was smart enough to leave another lousy franchise situation for one he could actually work with.

The problem is the Knicks. When you're a dysfunctional franchise that enables dysfunction from the top to the bottom, it's not a place that promotes success, encourages growth, or demands excellence. They barely demand accountability for anything.
Ten Ton  
TyreeHelmet : 4/19/2017 10:16 pm : link
I totally agree with you and you make some great points. The one thing I would say is that Jackson in theory should be almost more owner than GM. Steve Mills is truly the GM and Jackson is President "acting owner" of the Knicks. Dolan has given him carte blanche to do what he wants with the Knicks.

He's the one that needs to hold people accountable. Phil's background definitely was qualified for the position, but he has proven in 3 years that he isn't capable of being a successful exec.
RE: RE: I said it when he signed: grat coach is no guarantee to become  
Enzo : 4/20/2017 8:07 am : link
In comment 13434952 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13433878 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


a great exec. And to compound it, Jackson NEVER had to coach up a team from scratch. Bulls and Lakers were ready made to win. Zen Master my ass, he's just another full of shit ego maniac.



It was never a guarantee, I think a lot of people understood that when it happened, but you certainly can't say Phil Jackson wasn't qualified to try the job when you consider what's going on in the NBA.

Oh you can definitely say he wasn't qualified. No experience with the cap, running a draft, CBA minutia, hiring a head coach, etc. It's a completely different skillset compared to being a coach.


Quote:
There are also examples of things of this nature happening with other franchises and it IS working out. Hell, Daryl Morey wasn't a "basketball guy" but the Rockets have not had a losing record, in the Western Conference, since his time as General Manager.

Huh? Morey had experience working in an NBA front office prior to running the Rockets.

Quote:
How many years of coaching experience or teams built up from scratch does Jason Kidd have? He's doing okay for himself as a beginner coach. He was smart enough to leave another lousy franchise situation for one he could actually work with.

I'd argue the leap from NBA player to coach is not as significant as the leap from NBA coach to GM/team president.

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