Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

The wrong draft for Giants to save their offensive line

gidiefor : Mod : 4/19/2017 5:58 pm
Quote:
It is going to be exceedingly difficult for the Giants to find a great deal of help for their offensive line in the upcoming NFL draft.

There is a general consensus that the three top offensive line prospects are Cam Robinson of Alabama, Ryan Ramczyk of Wisconsin and Garett Bolles of Utah. All three could go in the first round. The problem is, the Giants are not enamored with any of the three.

Sure, there are aspects of all three that are intriguing, but when assessing the entire package, the Giants look at the players, look at their pick No. 23 overall and it is difficult to find a match of need and value.


- more by Paul Schwartz -
Link - ( New Window )
'The problem is, the Giants are not enamored with any of the three'...  
Torrag : 4/19/2017 6:00 pm : link
That's not a problem. I'm glad to hear they feel that way. Draft someone else.
I disagree. I think Ryan Ramczyk would be great value at 23.  
Anakim : 4/19/2017 6:02 pm : link
The other guys, not as much (though for some reason, I have a gut feeling that the Giants like Cam Robinson).

But if Ramczyk checks off medically, which I believe he does, I would absolutely consider him the pick because he could very well be the BPA.
To quote Brick Tamland  
David in LA : 4/19/2017 6:04 pm : link
And in practicality,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/19/2017 6:05 pm : link
this draft could WIND UP fielding some future stars. You just don't know..
Yet Raanan has Bolles slotted at #2 in his ten most likely targets.  
Devon : 4/19/2017 6:06 pm : link
And he's shown to have far better sources and feel for the team than Schwartz lately.
RE: Yet Raanan has Bolles slotted at #2 in his ten most likely targets.  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/19/2017 6:10 pm : link
In comment 13434666 Devon said:
Quote:
And he's shown to have far better sources and feel for the team than Schwartz lately.


Devon - I don't know why -- but that story was fed to Schwartz
I find it hard to believe  
mrvax : 4/19/2017 6:10 pm : link
the 2017 class is berift of good Oline prospects. I can see that this could happen in round 1 but the whole draft???

The law of averages should balance this out. Maybe the Giants can find good value in the middle rounds (not necessarily to start this year.)
.  
huygens20 : 4/19/2017 6:17 pm : link
just get a JAG, spend a 2nd or 3rd round pick on an OL


We need to draft PLAY MAKERS.

not PLAY PREVENTERS.


TE, RB, DE, OLB, CB, FS in r1.
.  
huygens20 : 4/19/2017 6:17 pm : link
There are some very good EDGE players in this draft also.
The first problem is thinking...  
EricJ : 4/19/2017 6:19 pm : link
you can save your O-line immediately after drafting a couple of rookies who have never played a down in this league.

Free agency is for the upcoming season. The draft is more about years 2 and 3 at that position.
The draft isn't for saving anything  
Go Terps : 4/19/2017 6:33 pm : link
Take the best players you can and move forward. Do that for enough drafts and you'll have a strong roster. It's then up to the coaches to decided how to best translate that strong roster to the field.

Get the best talent and be adaptable to that talent. If West Coast style coach is handed the 1995 Nebraska Cornhuskers and continues to run the West Coast offense, that's a shitty coach.
RE: The first problem is thinking...  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/19/2017 6:33 pm : link
In comment 13434686 EricJ said:
Quote:
you can save your O-line immediately after drafting a couple of rookies who have never played a down in this league.

Free agency is for the upcoming season. The draft is more about years 2 and 3 at that position.


Eric - Flowers, Richburg and Pugh all had to start year 1 -- in the current NFL - if you don't get a starter in round 1 -- you failed the draft
Any of them would be an upgrade  
Kivorka : 4/19/2017 6:34 pm : link
over Flowers
RE: The first problem is thinking...  
mavric : 4/19/2017 6:34 pm : link
In comment 13434686 EricJ said:
Quote:
you can save your O-line immediately after drafting a couple of rookies who have never played a down in this league.

Free agency is for the upcoming season. The draft is more about years 2 and 3 at that position.


Great point. We are all very aware that the O-line needs upgrading or even fixing. It rarely works drafting o-linemen that seamlessly step into a position. Once in awhile it happens like with Conklin. But in most cases, it takes a couple of years of NFL seasoning before they can be trusted on the line and even then, that first year is usually shaky. To top it off, the FA o-linemen were not top shelf players and even the oft injured ones and a little too aged were getting contracts like they were Conklin.

The Giants did what they could be picking up Fluker and adding Ellison who will help blocking at the line along with the current linemen. It wasn't like there were dozens of options available or that if we draft one this year in the first round that all our problems will go away.

The Giants should focus on the very best player on the board - period. We're built to win now, not in Eli's last year or when he is replaced.
Well, they liked Flowers good enough  
ZogZerg : 4/19/2017 6:41 pm : link
For a top 10 pick?
How has that turned out?

RE: I find it hard to believe  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 6:48 pm : link
In comment 13434674 mrvax said:
Quote:
the 2017 class is berift of good Oline prospects. I can see that this could happen in round 1 but the whole draft???

The law of averages should balance this out. Maybe the Giants can find good value in the middle rounds (not necessarily to start this year.)


I think people are thinking in terms of a "day 1 starter". It's a tough thing to expect in ANY draft year.
The Giants like their first-round pick to start  
81_Great_Dane : 4/19/2017 6:57 pm : link
by the end of his rookie year. Over the last 15 years, most of of them have done just that, and one who didn't, JPP, was already playing a lot and making a big contribution.

However that's not the same as starting Week 1. "Day One starter" is a fan thing, it's not a Giants thing.
Robinson would be one of the top five OL on the team...  
Milton : 4/19/2017 7:09 pm : link
...the minute he put on the uniform.
RE: The Giants like their first-round pick to start  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 7:13 pm : link
In comment 13434730 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
by the end of his rookie year. Over the last 15 years, most of of them have done just that, and one who didn't, JPP, was already playing a lot and making a big contribution.

However that's not the same as starting Week 1. "Day One starter" is a fan thing, it's not a Giants thing.


But if the context of the conversation is finding an offensive line 'savior', that wouldn't seem to mean 'rookie who sits for the first 8 games'
I think the Giants learned a very tough lesson  
Reb8thVA : 4/19/2017 7:15 pm : link
Last year and are doing their best to mask and conceal their true intentions. I think they are throwing up so many smoke screens this year. In past drafts we had a pretty good inkling of their targets weeks before the draft. This year I don't think any one can confidently say they know what the Giants are thinking.
We are going to reach for an OL in the first  
SHO'NUFF : 4/19/2017 7:17 pm : link
to erase the past first round sins of Jerry Reese, or should I say, Jerry Reach?
According to Sy's grades. there are 5 OL players who graded out to be  
PatersonPlank : 4/19/2017 7:29 pm : link
late first round/early second round picks. That is right where we are at #23. I don't know why people keep saying an OL player is a reach.
RE: According to Sy's grades. there are 5 OL players who graded out to be  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/19/2017 7:32 pm : link
In comment 13434759 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
late first round/early second round picks. That is right where we are at #23. I don't know why people keep saying an OL player is a reach.


PP -- it's not just anonymous people who are saying it - according to the linked article by Paul Schwartz -- The Giants are saying it
Good interior OL draft.  
732NYG : 4/19/2017 7:34 pm : link
Bad OT draft.
Robinson or Lamp would not be the wrong pick at 23  
Rick in Dallas : 4/19/2017 7:36 pm : link
And they both would improve our OL.

Having said that, I think the Giants are going to add an edge rusher.
Yeah. Maybe they can hit another home run like they  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/19/2017 7:39 pm : link
Did when they grabbed Wilson over Cordy Glenn. Or when they drafted that guy Sintim who was an LT clone over Max Unger.

I have no idea who turns out to be good great or a bust but anyone saying there's no NFL talent on the OL in this draft is just dopey. Here isn't s guy on this OL which has sniffed a Pro Bowl. Hard to believe here isn't anyone in this draft who can help one of the worst units in the NFL
I'm over worrying about the OL  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2017 7:48 pm : link
we made 3 additions this offseason all of which can help our run blocking. Hopefully 3 or 4 OLmen go before 23 and let a great player at another position fall to us.
I think the talent for the O Line is more flat then top heavy  
Rjanyg : 4/19/2017 8:26 pm : link
There seems to not be a consensus great OT good enough to be considered a can't miss top 10 prospect. It may be more about the " top Tackles " are not that much better than the next group. The talent at other positions like DE, CB, S, TE, RB, DT, WR is better than the best OT.

Dave Te likes Lamp. Thinks he can be an OT or Guard. Sy likes McDermott who in most draft guides is projected as a 3/4 round prospect.

I can see NYG drafting an OL but it makes the most sense to do so in rounds 2-4.

LB, DT, DE, TE or RB will have better value than OT this year in round 1.
Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 8:30 pm : link
There is, but none of it is readily apparent to be ready to go as immediately as the Giants actually need help at the position.
RE: I think the talent for the O Line is more flat then top heavy  
Milton : 4/19/2017 8:33 pm : link
In comment 13434809 Rjanyg said:
Quote:

Dave Te likes Lamp. Thinks he can be an OT or Guard. Sy likes McDermott who in most draft guides is projected as a 3/4 round prospect.
Both Sy and Dave Te like Robinson as well. Both have indicated that Robinson would be a legit pick at #23.
RE: Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
Milton : 4/19/2017 8:40 pm : link
In comment 13434813 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
There is, but none of it is readily apparent to be ready to go as immediately as the Giants actually need help at the position.
There are at least three, maybe four, that could come in and start immediately for the Giants. In fact, if the Giants drafted an OL in both rounds one and two, it's possible that both would win starting jobs on the Giants OL. Which is more of an indictment on what's currently on the Giants roster than an affirmation of the OL prospects in the draft, but it is what it is and pretending it is otherwise isn't going to make the team's OL problems go away.
It's  
AcidTest : 4/19/2017 8:55 pm : link
not that complicated. Draft a mauling guard (Moton, Dawkins, Asiata) in rounds two or three, and a developmental LT prospect (Knappe, Davenport, Dieugot) on day three.

People are underestimating how much we need to improve the DL. JPP and Vernon played 80-90% of the snaps last season, and Hankins is gone.
but the whole draft???  
Torrag : 4/19/2017 8:59 pm : link
It's not the whole Draft. It's Round 1.
RE: Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/19/2017 9:15 pm : link
In comment 13434813 Ten Ton Hammer said:
[quote] There is, but none of it is readily apparent to be ready to go as immediately as the Giants actually need help at the position. [/quote

Readily apparent. Well that's a matter of opinion isn't it. IMO I'd take Robinson or Lamp are immediate upgrades at either G or T. So maybe I'm all wet. That's fine to disagree but it gets old every year as people take a statelment like this and the insinuate that it's impossible to disagree.

How Many teams in the top 15 the year Martin was taken would like to heir pick back IMO that kid made every other guy on that OL better It was hardly readily apparent he was going to be that good. And if you read enough on his site you certainly get more than enough people acting like picking an OL at 23 would be the biggest mistake ever.

I'm fine w passing on an OL at 23 if they like someone else's but this anti Ol stance is pervasive w plenty here.
the problem is people thinking the only place you get OL help  
blueblood : 4/19/2017 9:27 pm : link
is round one
RE: RE: Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 9:32 pm : link
In comment 13434829 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13434813 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


There is, but none of it is readily apparent to be ready to go as immediately as the Giants actually need help at the position.

There are at least three, maybe four, that could come in and start immediately for the Giants. In fact, if the Giants drafted an OL in both rounds one and two, it's possible that both would win starting jobs on the Giants OL. Which is more of an indictment on what's currently on the Giants roster than an affirmation of the OL prospects in the draft, but it is what it is and pretending it is otherwise isn't going to make the team's OL problems go away.


I agree with what you're saying as far as there being a lack of talent on the OL presently, but the standard needs to be better than "well he'd start on THIS lousy line for sure". A lot of middle of the road players around the nfl would start ahead of some of the names on this line too. hat doesn't mean it's wise to overpay to acquire their services.

What's up for debate is whether the talent that could be available when the Giants pick represents enough value that makes it worth passing up another position.

It's not like they don't have other pressing needs too. The defense is clearly what drove the team to success last season, and they walked a tightrope all season long, requiring basically every player to be healthy all year long in order to make it.
RE: RE: Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
Reb8thVA : 4/19/2017 9:44 pm : link
In comment 13434829 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13434813 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


There is, but none of it is readily apparent to be ready to go as immediately as the Giants actually need help at the position.

There are at least three, maybe four, that could come in and start immediately for the Giants. In fact, if the Giants drafted an OL in both rounds one and two, it's possible that both would win starting jobs on the Giants OL. Which is more of an indictment on what's currently on the Giants roster than an affirmation of the OL prospects in the draft, but it is what it is and pretending it is otherwise isn't going to make the team's OL problems go away.


+1
RE: I disagree. I think Ryan Ramczyk would be great value at 23.  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/19/2017 9:49 pm : link
In comment 13434659 Anakim said:
Quote:
The other guys, not as much (though for some reason, I have a gut feeling that the Giants like Cam Robinson).

But if Ramczyk checks off medically, which I believe he does, I would absolutely consider him the pick because he could very well be the BPA.

That's not a gut feeling; that's just a symptom of reading too many of Milton's posts.
RE: RE: Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 9:51 pm : link
In comment 13434901 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:

Readily apparent. Well that's a matter of opinion isn't it. IMO I'd take Robinson or Lamp are immediate upgrades at either G or T. So maybe I'm all wet. That's fine to disagree but it gets old every year as people take a statelment like this and the insinuate that it's impossible to disagree.

How Many teams in the top 15 the year Martin was taken would like to heir pick back IMO that kid made every other guy on that OL better It was hardly readily apparent he was going to be that good. And if you read enough on his site you certainly get more than enough people acting like picking an OL at 23 would be the biggest mistake ever.


I don't mean to say that it's impossible to disagree. They could very well find the next Chris Snee in round 2 this year. I'm only in disagreement with the idea that it "has to" be offensive line in the first round.
The ol is going hinder this team til they get it settled  
micky : 4/19/2017 9:53 pm : link
Offense is going to struggle imo like last season..unless a 180 by line.
RE: RE: RE: Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
Milton : 4/19/2017 9:56 pm : link
In comment 13434920 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
What's up for debate is whether the talent that could be available when the Giants pick represents enough value that makes it worth passing up another position.

It's not like they don't have other pressing needs too. The defense is clearly what drove the team to success last season, and they walked a tightrope all season long, requiring basically every player to be healthy all year long in order to make it.
We're in basic agreement that the team should go BPA with need being the tie-breaker. I believe the team's greatest need is at OT, so in my mind if an OT is in the mix at BPA, he should be the pick. So it comes down to whether or not there are candidates for BPA at the OT position on the backside of round one. Most draftniks would say there are. We'll find out in 8 days what the 32 NFL general managers think.
RE: Robinson would be one of the top five OL on the team...  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/19/2017 10:01 pm : link
In comment 13434736 Milton said:
Quote:
...the minute he put on the uniform.

So is Flowers. That's not exactly a badge of honor given the state of the OL.

Robinson would also be top five on the team in police activity and stolen gun possession.
Ramcyk or Robinson  
WillVAB : 4/19/2017 10:36 pm : link
would make a lot of sense at 23. Both would start immediately and potentially make the OL unit turn from one of the worst to one of the better groups. Not a fan of the rest at 23.

It's odd that these guys are so polarizing when the OL obviously needs help. Both are very good prospects. Much more attractive than the en vogue tweener edge rushers recently being hyped up. Speaking of which, when was the last time that worked out in this scheme?
Ranking the OTs  
Peppers : 4/20/2017 2:23 am : link
Ramcyzk has the hip problem and only one year FBS
Bolles 25 years old and only one year FBS.

That drops both out of first round consideration for me.

Cam Robinson is the only first round OT in this draft IMO.

He has the length you want, he has the starting experience against the best competition. He only gave up 1 sack last year. He's not just a one year wonder. He was a top recruit and started since his freshman year. He was a team captain. If we were hell bent on drafting a OT in the first, I'm fine with Cam Robinson at 23.


The way Schwartz talks  
Glover : 4/20/2017 2:25 am : link
you'd think he was heading up the draft for the Giants. He knows they are not enamored with any of the top 3 linemen? Is that what someone who has anything to do with drafting players told a reporter from the NYP? And he quoted a source familiar with the Giants draft thinking? That could be anyone. He takes frequently spoken opinions and evaluations of these players and attributes them to the Giants, as if Jerry Reese told him Not buying it. Not likely they draft an O lineman to supplant Flowers or Hart? They may have no choice but to supplant Flowers at LT, and Hart was a 7th round draft pick for chrissakes.
RE: I think the Giants learned a very tough lesson  
TheMick7 : 4/20/2017 6:50 am : link
In comment 13434742 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
Last year and are doing their best to mask and conceal their true intentions. I think they are throwing up so many smoke screens this year. In past drafts we had a pretty good inkling of their targets weeks before the draft. This year I don't think any one can confidently say they know what the Giants are thinking.


Also, in the past couple of drafts, the Giants were drafting high, so by matter of elimination, it was easier to focus on who they like. Now,at 23, there are so many variables before we get to that pick, it's tough to focus on 2-3 players unless we are talking about OJ Howard & I hope,but doubt, he will be available at 23.
RE: RE: RE: Who said there was no NFL talent in this draft at offensive line?  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/20/2017 7:05 am : link
In comment 13434957 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13434901 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:



Readily apparent. Well that's a matter of opinion isn't it. IMO I'd take Robinson or Lamp are immediate upgrades at either G or T. So maybe I'm all wet. That's fine to disagree but it gets old every year as people take a statelment like this and the insinuate that it's impossible to disagree.

How Many teams in the top 15 the year Martin was taken would like to heir pick back IMO that kid made every other guy on that OL better It was hardly readily apparent he was going to be that good. And if you read enough on his site you certainly get more than enough people acting like picking an OL at 23 would be the biggest mistake ever.




I don't mean to say that it's impossible to disagree. They could very well find the next Chris Snee in round 2 this year. I'm only in disagreement with the idea that it "has to" be offensive line in the first round.


agreee. I think that it's the most obvious hole. At 23 the Giants are at the mercy of too many teams. I'm hoping there's a run on QBs and someone offers a. Extra 2 to move up. I'd also like to win the Powerball fwiw. We will know in about a week.
Haven't we learned by now,  
Doomster : 4/20/2017 7:47 am : link
that the draft is a crapshoot?

Sometimes the 23rd pick turns out better than the 9th.......
I am warming  
PaulN : 4/20/2017 9:07 am : link
Up to Lamp, after reading Dave's take I am sold. An Oline of Flowers/Pugh/Richburg/Lamp/Fluker sounds to me like an upgrade from last season, Then we have Jerry and Hart as backups, this does not sound like a disaster and in fact could develop into a very good Oline if Flowers and Fluker, who are working hard this off season, can improve. I think this would work out well.
Matty  
PaulN : 4/20/2017 9:13 am : link
I don't think anyone disagrees, we all know that we need help there, but if we had to go with what we have, I think we would be fine if other moves were made to help the team. If we did add a DE with the first pick and say a running back in one of the first 4 rounds that makes an impact, that could also be a way to greatly improve the team without adding that offensive lineman in the first round. You can't force a first round pick, we did with Flowers and look at the result, although Beatty getting injured and Flowers playing injured that season didn't help the kid. He is working hard and I have not given up yet.
you don't reach just to fill a need.  
Victor in CT : 4/20/2017 9:25 am : link
if they think the value is there, fine, if not, cross your fingers and hope the light bulb goes on for Flowers, Pugh stays healthy, Richburg is better than we think, and 2 of either Jerry, Fluker or Hart can man the right side effectively enough.
.  
idiotsavant : 4/20/2017 9:30 am : link
Pugh/Lamp[Richburg]Fluker\Flowere

or maybe even

Pugh/Lamp[Asiata]Fluker\Flowers

or maybe

Pugh/Lamp/Richburg\Hart\Fluker

Mix in more outside zone plays left, in addition,
more two tight ends and outside running,
possibly add a RB in the 4th or 5th round.

To me, fans are obsessed with pure left tackles in early rounds and lacking that they just stop considering improvements.
.  
idiotsavant : 4/20/2017 9:35 am : link
Pugh/Lamp[Asiata]Hart\Fluker

Its all about the G-C-G combo for those non play action pass play selections, and running quick outside zone plays with play action mixed in to allow the tackles to tee off on defenders for the alternative schematics.

and all about having football smart and good blocking tight ends, increasing wr blocking duties on those plays
then, finally  
idiotsavant : 4/20/2017 9:40 am : link
much heavier and better at the G-C-G allows more under center QB formation play, which additionally eases the OT duties.

in addition, my obsession about moving Pugh to OLT is more about increasing the G-C-G power and weight to comply with Mac Ball than it is about Pugh being an all world tackle.

Then, add in the current and typical OLT 'market situation' and the move becomes that much more rational
May not be  
old man : 4/20/2017 3:22 pm : link
A salvation draft but maybe 1 of the 2 OTs that Sy projects as Gs can be good enough to immediately make the OL 20% better, especially a good run blocker.
RE: I disagree. I think Ryan Ramczyk would be great value at 23.  
One Man Thrill Ride : 4/20/2017 6:20 pm : link
In comment 13434659 Anakim said:
Quote:
The other guys, not as much (though for some reason, I have a gut feeling that the Giants like Cam Robinson).

But if Ramczyk checks off medically, which I believe he does, I would absolutely consider him the pick because he could very well be the BPA.


The Org does indeed favor Robinson, for all the obvious reasons. Size and reach. Youth (does not turn 22 until October). Extensive experience in a pro football factory. Health and durability. Former 5-star recruit. There's a lot to like.

Remember, they drafted Flowers in the top-10 and their methodology remains the same. Trill Withers understands how Flowers' struggles could ignite Robinson as a nightmare outcome to NYG fans.
IN FAIRNESS - Flowers and Robinson might be similar, but they aren't the same. Flowers himself is only 23; The Org values youth and physical talent because it affords the foundation for someone like Flowers to grow into a player even after a rocky introduction.

On the other hand, Ranaan has the correct report on Ramczyk. Regardless of his tape, the medical background creates too much concern. Anyone can 'believe' he checks out medically, but at this point even the best ortho's and PT's are only making an educated guess about the completion of his rehab.

Unfortunately, there's nothing to truly "check out" other than conformation his rehab schedule is on track. He's only about 3.5 months out of a labrum repair, which optimistically involves a 6-month timetable. Latest reports indicate he's dong well. Even then, anyone who has had major surgeries on hips, knees, shoulders knows that the last 10-20% is the very hardest to recapture. Nothing is guaranteed after they cut you open.

For some teams, that information is good enough to keep Ryan in their 1st round. But what do we know about NYG? Risk aversion in RD 1 - they were out on Todd Gurley under the same pretense. Health and character; Tunsil was also off our board for both of those factors.

Bottom line, it won't be Ram but it could be Cam. Thrill Ride is not uncertain.

Back to the Corner