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NFT: Mets vs Phils Gm 2 - better HIT thread!

spike : 4/19/2017 7:41 pm
Looks like losing 4 in a row and back to 500 got us all down a bit on the Mets. Let's see if Gazelleman has a bounce back start from his last outing.

Lineup
Grandy
Cabrera
Cespedes
Bruce
Walker
Duda
Reyes
TDA
Gsellman



I just don't understand Collins  
Rflairr : 4/19/2017 7:47 pm : link
Why is Conforto sitting against a pitcher he destroys
RE: I just don't understand Collins  
spike : 4/19/2017 7:57 pm : link
In comment 13434779 Rflairr said:
Quote:
Why is Conforto sitting against a pitcher he destroys


He has to bench the ice cold Granderson for Conforto.
Key to shutting down the mets bats  
spike : 4/19/2017 8:04 pm : link
Cold weather!
"Terry, is there anything different about the team approach?"  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:10 pm : link
TC: "Yeah, we are not hitting HRs."

And that's all you need to know about what this team is all about. The same philosophy that produced the 26th ranked offense last year.

Such a shame too. This team is too talented to be stunted by an awful, ineffective offensive philosophy.
RE:  
Earl the goat : 4/19/2017 8:15 pm : link
In comment 13434798 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
TC: "Yeah, we are not hitting HRs."

And that's all you need to know about what this team is all about. The same philosophy that produced the 26th ranked offense last year.

Such a shame too. This team is too talented to be stunted by an awful, ineffective offensive philosophy.


Part of the blame needs to go to Alderson
There is no team speed. No lead off hitter and simply no way to manufacture runs

But I agree. Collins moves are questionable
If Shecky is lurking around, I'd love to know your  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:16 pm : link
thoughts on the Mets "boom or bust" hitting philosophy.

It really seems like we are destined to repeat history of last season. Having to hear the same conversations from the booth about only scoring 2.5 runs per game over X games is disheartening. And it's only game 15, lol.
RE: If Shecky is lurking around, I'd love to know your  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 8:20 pm : link
In comment 13434803 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
thoughts on the Mets "boom or bust" hitting philosophy.

It really seems like we are destined to repeat history of last season. Having to hear the same conversations from the booth about only scoring 2.5 runs per game over X games is disheartening. And it's only game 15, lol.


I hate it, always have. Been pretty clear about that the last few years. But I will say - get used to it. Stats have "proven it works" and the rest of baseball is now fly ball happy.

Personally, I'd have built this team on pitching like they have. And modeled after the 80's Cardinals. Would have gone that route the second they decided to build Citifield. Would have been a MASSIVE home field advantage. Instead - the rebuilt the stadium. Twice.
Yeah, Earl. I wasn't even blaming Collins if you can believe it.  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:23 pm : link
This comes from the top I can only assume. Everyone knows my views on TC so there is no reason to get into that. But it would seem that they have learned nothing from last years debacle.

As for speed and leadoff hitting, I feel like the game is changing. I don't there is as much importance on the leadoff hitter as there used to be. But they still need to get on base. They aren't the slowest team in the world (I think) but they don't employ smart baserunning either. Need to go first to third more on hits. Need to hit and run more. Create some offense, especially when things are getting stale.
Really thought the Mets would start to heat  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:26 pm : link
when they had first got to Miami. NOPE. Not yet. They might be more cold now than ever. lol

I hate to place blame on one guy... but when the team is ice cold like this you got to turn to your superstar you are paying 25 million dollars to to lighten the load a bit. It's not fair. Everyone is hot and cold in a season but Cespedes gets just as cold as anyone and deserves more of the heat.

He'll be fine but the longer this continues the larger the spotlight will grow.
Thanks Shecky  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:28 pm : link
Sometimes I think that the reliance on stats ruins the game at some point. I'm staring at that new fly ball philosophy not working. And it makes the game boring. Why base your hitting philosophy on such a low percentage play (the HR)? I'm with you in hating it.
Jesus Christ, Reyes.  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:31 pm : link
.
I want more OBP guys in the lineup as much as anyone  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:32 pm : link
It's one of the reasons Im excited for the future. I genuinely hope Cheech, Nimmo, Conforto, and Smith are going to end up pushing their way into spots eventually. The lineup is all screwed up though right now. Why is Duda, one of your best OBP guys, batting 6th or 7th? Makes no sense. Oh well. Mets will be there in the end. Im trying not to get caught up in too much day to day stuff and just enjoy it. Hard to believe we've only played 14 games. It's a long season. As cold as we are now we'll be equally as hot eventually.
Im much more paranoid  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:35 pm : link
about just staying healthy. I think most of these guys stats will be there in the end. I also dont think it's likely all 8 guys get hot at the same time or cold at the same time once we get into the summer months. As long as everyone is in the lineup the chances of a few of them being hot and even carrying us for stretches are pretty high IMO. Just how I look at it.
Geez, I hope Duda is okay and it's not serious but does any guy  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:36 pm : link
play through a little hurty anymore? You never used to see guys take themselves out of the game in the past. Hard-nosed players went away once the millions of $$$ started, lol.
Studies look at it cumulative  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 8:37 pm : link
Through a full season. Winning 15-2, then losing 5 out of 6 by one run each. Well, I don't buy it. But I'm old school on that. Big time. I love doubles hitters, don't care as much for the homer in as most. I LOVE watching a guy go first to third on a ball abit in the rite center gap. To me, that's exciting. But I understand very few in baseball think like I do. And way fewer fans think like I do.

Just get to the playoffs. Then 50/50 chance your bats are hot and you go down in history.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 8:37 pm : link
Man this team is not fun to watch right now.
RE: Geez, I hope Duda is okay and it's not serious but does any guy  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 8:38 pm : link
In comment 13434819 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
play through a little hurty anymore? You never used to see guys take themselves out of the game in the past. Hard-nosed players went away once the millions of $$$ started, lol.


Don't go there Phi. I almost got yelled about that exact same thing this morning lol
RE: Studies look at it cumulative  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:39 pm : link
In comment 13434820 Shecky said:
Quote:
Through a full season. Winning 15-2, then losing 5 out of 6 by one run each. Well, I don't buy it. But I'm old school on that. Big time. I love doubles hitters, don't care as much for the homer in as most. I LOVE watching a guy go first to third on a ball abit in the rite center gap. To me, that's exciting. But I understand very few in baseball think like I do. And way fewer fans think like I do.

Just get to the playoffs. Then 50/50 chance your bats are hot and you go down in history.


+1000

I feel the same way.
Hyperextended elbow for Duda  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:40 pm : link
Fuck my life.
RE: RE: Geez, I hope Duda is okay and it's not serious but does any guy  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:40 pm : link
In comment 13434822 Shecky said:
Quote:
In comment 13434819 PhiPsi125 said:


Quote:


play through a little hurty anymore? You never used to see guys take themselves out of the game in the past. Hard-nosed players went away once the millions of $$$ started, lol.



Don't go there Phi. I almost got yelled about that exact same thing this morning lol


Haha. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 8:40 pm : link
Baseball players get injured so fucking easily.. it boggles my mind.
Too bad the lineup is sucking the joy out of this stretch lol  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:43 pm : link
Some awesome positives with both Harvey and Wheeler coming back and looking good after terrible surgeries and time away. I still think Gsellman is going to be really good. deGrom is pitching like it's 2015 again. Duda (until tonight) and TDA both appeared back and healthy and they were huge question marks. Too bad.
lol..  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:45 pm : link
Gsellman gets the second hit of the game.
Lol  
Rflairr : 4/19/2017 8:45 pm : link
Wow just wow
RE: lol..  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 8:45 pm : link
In comment 13434843 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Gsellman gets the second hit of the game.

The guy who wasn't even ALLOWED to swing a bat last year. Is carrying our offense now.
All about those fundys  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:46 pm : link
Nice job on the slide Gsellman. Probably just cost you a run.
Seriously Gary?  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:46 pm : link
The throw beat him by 10 steps lol.
Glad Granderson is in there over  
Rflairr : 4/19/2017 8:46 pm : link
Conforto
TC has this team clicking on all cylinders.  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:47 pm : link
They are definitely in mid-season form, lol.
RE: All about those fundys  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 8:48 pm : link
In comment 13434847 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
Nice job on the slide Gsellman. Probably just cost you a run.


Lol - even I don't blame him for not sliding lol
RE: Seriously Gary?  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:48 pm : link
In comment 13434848 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
The throw beat him by 10 steps lol.


He had to tag him. If he actually runs hard and slides he could have made it. Maybe.
jay bruce has to play first  
spike : 4/19/2017 8:49 pm : link
Conforto in RF and Lagares in CF. Grandy has to sit.

RE: Seriously Gary?  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:49 pm : link
In comment 13434848 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
The throw beat him by 10 steps lol.


I only counted 8 steps...maybe 9. Let's not exaggerate.
bruce!  
spike : 4/19/2017 8:49 pm : link
If We homer, we win!
Bruce!  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 8:50 pm : link
.
A HR  
Rflairr : 4/19/2017 8:50 pm : link
BRUCE!
YAY, baseball is fun again!!!  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:50 pm : link
Instant mood swing.
Lol  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 8:50 pm : link
As we were saying...
Bruuuuuce!!!  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:50 pm : link
Whooo!
RE: RE: Seriously Gary?  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:51 pm : link
In comment 13434857 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434848 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


The throw beat him by 10 steps lol.



I only counted 8 steps...maybe 9. Let's not exaggerate.


;)
a little payback  
spike : 4/19/2017 8:52 pm : link
on the infield pop up drop
Automatic out  
Rflairr : 4/19/2017 8:54 pm : link
Reyes
Too bad TJ Rivera cannot play third base adequately  
spike : 4/19/2017 8:55 pm : link
or he would be the starting 3B right now.
Power helps  
feelflows : 4/19/2017 8:57 pm : link
Eh?
d'arnaud hurt  
CMicks3110 : 4/19/2017 8:57 pm : link
man is made of glass. Baby got a tiny cut.
Cool.  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 8:58 pm : link
So much for Duda and TDA. lol. wow.
that homer was glorious  
GMenLTS : 4/19/2017 8:59 pm : link
reyes and grandy need to ride pine
RE: that homer was glorious  
feelflows : 4/19/2017 9:00 pm : link
In comment 13434882 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
reyes and grandy need to ride pine


It's weird. I'm more patient with Granderson than Reyes. I wonder why that is.
Real nice start for  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:01 pm : link
Gazelle.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 9:04 pm : link
Figured it was only a matter of time for the Gazelle Man. Was due a good start. We need to win this fucking game in the worst way.
what is TDA injured with?  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:09 pm : link
Keep the pen sitting. Let Gsellman ride it out!
RE: what is TDA injured with?  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:11 pm : link
In comment 13434894 spike said:
Quote:
Keep the pen sitting. Let Gsellman ride it out!


He slipped, spun around and then landed awkwardly on his wrist. Got up shaking it. It looked like it may have been cut too.
Wow...  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:12 pm : link
Gazelle still pitching?
Fucking Terry...  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:12 pm : link
Took one pitch.
lets go  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:19 pm : link
Jerry!
RE: RE: that homer was glorious  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:20 pm : link
In comment 13434885 feelflows said:
Quote:
In comment 13434882 GMenLTS said:


Quote:


reyes and grandy need to ride pine



It's weird. I'm more patient with Granderson than Reyes. I wonder why that is.


because Granderson is on his patented early season slump. Then he heats up in the summer.
RE: RE: what is TDA injured with?  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 9:21 pm : link
In comment 13434897 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434894 spike said:


Quote:


Keep the pen sitting. Let Gsellman ride it out!



He slipped, spun around and then landed awkwardly on his wrist. Got up shaking it. It looked like it may have been cut too.


TdA hit his hand on the hitters bat on the follow through on his throw. Right hand contusion. That's why there was a cut on his hand.
Unbelievable.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 9:24 pm : link
.
We can only hope  
Shecky : 4/19/2017 9:24 pm : link
That TDA just got Wally Pipp'd
Could it be, the moment we've all been waiting for?
PLAWECKIIIIIIIIIII TIIIIIIIIMMMMMMEEEEE
another blown save  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:24 pm : link
ho hum.

We suck.
Wow.  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:24 pm : link
Just wow.
whys Robles coming?  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:25 pm : link
Are we burning through 4 relievers by June?
This fucking team  
Rob in Rockaway : 4/19/2017 9:25 pm : link
...
Good thing  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2017 9:28 pm : link
the Mets bullpen is among the best in the league.
RE: Good thing  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:29 pm : link
In comment 13434916 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
the Mets bullpen is among the best in the league.


Dude. Seriously fuck off.
RE: RE: Good thing  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2017 9:34 pm : link
In comment 13434918 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434916 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


the Mets bullpen is among the best in the league.



Dude. Seriously fuck off.


How about you fuck off. We discussed this all off-season and you were so f-ing smug about it all off-season, that the bullpen was so solid filled with studs and nothing to worry about even without Familia.

While I was concerned this exact thing was going to happen.

And the Mets absolutely need a fast start to the season given the schedule.

so, I don't think I'll fuck off. but you're welcome to.
Bruce  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:34 pm : link
is m y new hero
Fucking Jay Bruce  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:34 pm : link
Where would we be without him??
I think that pull data has helped Bruce  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 9:35 pm : link
quick, someone give him some data that says he'd hit more homers by playing 1B so Conforto can play every day.
RE: Fucking Jay Bruce  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:35 pm : link
In comment 13434924 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Where would we be without him??


basement of NL East right now
Fucking boss  
GMenLTS : 4/19/2017 9:35 pm : link
.
Bruce  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:37 pm : link
has made himself impossible to trade off, esp with Granderson struggling so much.
RE: RE: RE: Good thing  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:37 pm : link
In comment 13434922 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434918 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434916 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


the Mets bullpen is among the best in the league.



Dude. Seriously fuck off.



How about you fuck off. We discussed this all off-season and you were so f-ing smug about it all off-season, that the bullpen was so solid filled with studs and nothing to worry about even without Familia.

While I was concerned this exact thing was going to happen.

And the Mets absolutely need a fast start to the season given the schedule.

so, I don't think I'll fuck off. but you're welcome to.


I let your little comment slide without a peep last night but if you are going to act like a little fucking bitch every time the bullpen lets up a run get ready for a long season asshole. We had the number 2 pen in baseball last year. Period. We have yet to blow a game in the 9th with Familia out and guys like Blevins who gave up the lead the last two nights could have just as easily been in this game or not. Keep kicking rocks because we didn't sign Aroldis Chapman loser. LOL
RE: I think that pull data has helped Bruce  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:38 pm : link
In comment 13434925 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
quick, someone give him some data that says he'd hit more homers by playing 1B so Conforto can play every day.


Duda just solved our Conforto conundrum.
RE: Fucking boss  
feelflows : 4/19/2017 9:38 pm : link
In comment 13434928 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
.


Does this comparison mean Jay Bruce is highly overrated and boring?
Moar Jose Reyes pleeze  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 9:39 pm : link
Certainly can't hurt his feelings by sitting him. This "no accountability" thing is really working for him.
RE: RE: I think that pull data has helped Bruce  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 9:41 pm : link
In comment 13434933 spike said:
Quote:
In comment 13434925 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


quick, someone give him some data that says he'd hit more homers by playing 1B so Conforto can play every day.



Duda just solved our Conforto conundrum.


Assuming 1 of our OF'ers can play 1B.
RE: RE: I think that pull data has helped Bruce  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 9:41 pm : link
In comment 13434933 spike said:
Quote:
In comment 13434925 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


quick, someone give him some data that says he'd hit more homers by playing 1B so Conforto can play every day.



Duda just solved our Conforto conundrum.


No he didn't. Flores will play first so we can keep trotting Reyes out there.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good thing  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2017 9:42 pm : link
In comment 13434932 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434922 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434918 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434916 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


the Mets bullpen is among the best in the league.



Dude. Seriously fuck off.



How about you fuck off. We discussed this all off-season and you were so f-ing smug about it all off-season, that the bullpen was so solid filled with studs and nothing to worry about even without Familia.

While I was concerned this exact thing was going to happen.

And the Mets absolutely need a fast start to the season given the schedule.

so, I don't think I'll fuck off. but you're welcome to.



I let your little comment slide without a peep last night but if you are going to act like a little fucking bitch every time the bullpen lets up a run get ready for a long season asshole. We had the number 2 pen in baseball last year. Period. We have yet to blow a game in the 9th with Familia out and guys like Blevins who gave up the lead the last two nights could have just as easily been in this game or not. Keep kicking rocks because we didn't sign Aroldis Chapman loser. LOL


I don't care what you let slide. Who the fuck are you. I don't need your approval or permission to post anything on any thread.

You're a no one delusional homer fan who overrates just about every player on the team and in the minors.

The bullpen is a concern, not just now, but even with Familia, and especially should the Mets make the playoffs.

So yes, I'll be concerned about it and I'll voice my concern whether you like it or not.

while you continually remind us how great Reed is and how lights out studs like Sewald are (yes you said that).

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Good thing  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:45 pm : link
In comment 13434941 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434932 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434922 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434918 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434916 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


the Mets bullpen is among the best in the league.



Dude. Seriously fuck off.



How about you fuck off. We discussed this all off-season and you were so f-ing smug about it all off-season, that the bullpen was so solid filled with studs and nothing to worry about even without Familia.

While I was concerned this exact thing was going to happen.

And the Mets absolutely need a fast start to the season given the schedule.

so, I don't think I'll fuck off. but you're welcome to.



I let your little comment slide without a peep last night but if you are going to act like a little fucking bitch every time the bullpen lets up a run get ready for a long season asshole. We had the number 2 pen in baseball last year. Period. We have yet to blow a game in the 9th with Familia out and guys like Blevins who gave up the lead the last two nights could have just as easily been in this game or not. Keep kicking rocks because we didn't sign Aroldis Chapman loser. LOL



I don't care what you let slide. Who the fuck are you. I don't need your approval or permission to post anything on any thread.

You're a no one delusional homer fan who overrates just about every player on the team and in the minors.

The bullpen is a concern, not just now, but even with Familia, and especially should the Mets make the playoffs.

So yes, I'll be concerned about it and I'll voice my concern whether you like it or not.

while you continually remind us how great Reed is and how lights out studs like Sewald are (yes you said that).


You can voice your opinion whenever the fuck you want just like I can. My issue is with you turning into a twat making passive aggressive attacks every time the fucking pen lets up a run and acting like a two-year-old now every game. We all know you are coming at me. And no I never said Sewald was stud. I said he was an "upside option" this year. Look it up.
Reed doesn't look quite the same in 9th inning as he did in the 8th  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 9:45 pm : link
it's almost like there's more pressure so you can't just pencil a guy in as closer based on his numbers from last year.
wow, this is baseball fellas  
CMicks3110 : 4/19/2017 9:46 pm : link
no need to get into a pissing match. We're talking baseball.
My comment was not to you ZG  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2017 9:47 pm : link
and was not meant to get a rise out of you. Honestly.

A lot of people share your view.

My comment was just venting my own frustration with the bullpen (something I thought would be a concern).

Needed this win.
huge win and huge game for Gsellman/Bruce  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 9:48 pm : link
this team has as much starting pitching and power as anyone. Need to fill in around that. Sandy would be well served to find some reliable supporting hitters and BP support.
RE: My comment was not to you ZG  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:50 pm : link
In comment 13434953 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
and was not meant to get a rise out of you. Honestly.

A lot of people share your view.

My comment was just venting my own frustration with the bullpen (something I thought would be a concern).

Needed this win.


I genuinely thought you were attacking me the last two nights. If you weren't then I apologize completely.
group hug time  
spike : 4/19/2017 9:52 pm : link
Mets won!!
RE: RE: My comment was not to you ZG  
pjcas18 : 4/19/2017 9:53 pm : link
In comment 13434956 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434953 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


and was not meant to get a rise out of you. Honestly.

A lot of people share your view.

My comment was just venting my own frustration with the bullpen (something I thought would be a concern).

Needed this win.



I genuinely thought you were attacking me the last two nights. If you weren't then I apologize completely.


Come on, I think you know if I was going to say something to you I'd address you. Even if it was an attack.

]We have civilly debated this topic all off-season and so far this season.

No reason for me to not address you directly if I wanted to attack you, which is far too tiresome (I mean that as a compliment). even if we disagree about it.

Nice win, nice bounce back from Gsellman.
Jay Bruce currently the #1 trend on twitter  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 9:53 pm : link
guy is a pure run producer.
RE: RE: RE: My comment was not to you ZG  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:56 pm : link
In comment 13434960 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434956 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434953 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


and was not meant to get a rise out of you. Honestly.

A lot of people share your view.

My comment was just venting my own frustration with the bullpen (something I thought would be a concern).

Needed this win.



I genuinely thought you were attacking me the last two nights. If you weren't then I apologize completely.



Come on, I think you know if I was going to say something to you I'd address you. Even if it was an attack.

]We have civilly debated this topic all off-season and so far this season.

No reason for me to not address you directly if I wanted to attack you, which is far too tiresome (I mean that as a compliment). even if we disagree about it.

Nice win, nice bounce back from Gsellman.


Ok. Well I just thought this would be something that could be unbearable if we were going to continue this all year so I thought it was worth addressing. Sorry I flew off the handle. You know I liked the pen going in. Still do. I think its going to be fine. It's not the best ever or one for the record books or anything and they will give up runs. But I think it's very solid. My biggest concern is Familia in big spots actually. Time will tell.
Jay fucking Bruce.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 9:56 pm : link
We needed this one big time. Bruce has been a godsend so far in this early season. We've really needed him.
Sorry for muddying up the thread to  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:57 pm : link
everyone else. Nice win.
Also, nice scuffle guys.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 9:57 pm : link
Needed a little energy in here. Now shake hands and let's move onto the next game.
It's too early for me to buy in on Jay Bruce  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/19/2017 9:57 pm : link
But I'm starting to wonder if he's just gonna make me eat it all year.
RE: Jay fucking Bruce.  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 9:57 pm : link
In comment 13434970 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We needed this one big time. Bruce has been a godsend so far in this early season. We've really needed him.


Isnt it a funny game? Probably the number one guy everyone wanted gone or traded heading in.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 10:01 pm : link
This is what Bruce is. He started last year like this too.

And by that, I don't mean Jay Bruce is going to play at this level for 162 games.. but he's capable of having big-time impact for stretches.

Of course, with this, comes what we saw from him almost exclusively last year in his short time in Flushing. So, I expect the "bad" Bruce to show up again at some point this year - but if he balances it out by playing like this for stretches at a time, it'll be easier to deal with.
Lowest citifield attendance ever tonight  
spike : 4/19/2017 10:01 pm : link
with 10,038
Agree completely  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:03 pm : link
Which is why I still might sell high at the deadline but I'm enjoying the ride for now.

Im excited to make some changes tomorrow. We need to go back to a 5 man bench. If TDA and Duda are banged up there is going to be some major roster moves tomorrow. Of course we know Familia is activated also.
Yep, we need Familia back big time.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 10:08 pm : link
A lot of strain on this pen in the early going.
Bruce is a proven run producer  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:10 pm : link
The guy ends up with 60 XBH every single year and put up 97+ RBI 4 of the last 5 years. He's not the best hitter but he's been one of the most consistent sluggers in baseball over the last half decade.
RE: Yep, we need Familia back big time.  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:12 pm : link
In comment 13434984 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
A lot of strain on this pen in the early going.


Yep they played with fire and got a little burned. Imagine how things would be right now if Familia had gotten 30 or 40 games. I love Sandy but he brought them into the season at least 1 arm short.
Reynolds just got pulled  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:14 pm : link
from the Vegas game. Almost certainly is one guy coming up. Sounds like TDA might be fine and Duda might be headed to the DL.
RE: RE: Yep, we need Familia back big time.  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 10:17 pm : link
In comment 13434988 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13434984 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


A lot of strain on this pen in the early going.



Yep they played with fire and got a little burned. Imagine how things would be right now if Familia had gotten 30 or 40 games. I love Sandy but he brought them into the season at least 1 arm short.


Agreed. I really thought we needed to add one more guy. Blanton has been bad for WSH in the early going so that doesn't look like a big miss yet.. Zeigler would have been a great addition, though
Duda remarkably combines with unreliability with inconsistency  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:21 pm : link
for 2 months in 2015 it looked like he made a good decision and things have been all downhill since.
WAS offense has been locked-in all season so far.  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 10:23 pm : link
Firing on all cylinders, which is annoying. It's going to be a bitch to take the division over them.
RE: RE: RE: Yep, we need Familia back big time.  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:23 pm : link
In comment 13434993 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13434988 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 13434984 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


A lot of strain on this pen in the early going.



Yep they played with fire and got a little burned. Imagine how things would be right now if Familia had gotten 30 or 40 games. I love Sandy but he brought them into the season at least 1 arm short.



Agreed. I really thought we needed to add one more guy. Blanton has been bad for WSH in the early going so that doesn't look like a big miss yet.. Zeigler would have been a great addition, though


Ziegler and Holland were the 2 big misses. I know he'll get hot at some point and hit 10 homers in a month and make me eat my words, but bringing i'd much rather have spent the 17M they paid Walker in the bullpen and let 1 of Flores/Cecchini/Rivera take 2nd.
It's going to come down to Smoker IMO  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:24 pm : link
Familia, Reed, Salas, Blevins, and Robles were all locks regardless if we brought somebody else in or not. Presumably, they would have left a spot for a long man like Lugo. So that's really it. If you believe in Smoker and think he'll be better than some of the guys that were available on the market then there was no room really. If you don't believe in him and think he's a turd then a vet makes a lot more sense. Time will tell I guess if the Mets guessed right.
I also dont think Holland was ever realistic at all.  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:27 pm : link
He is the closer for a team that won the World Series a year and half ago and is making 7 million a year. We have no insight at all into if he would be willing to come here and be the 2nd or 3rd best option.

Zeigler would have been a nice add but he's old.

Again, we'll see how it plays out.
Zeigler is old...  
arcarsenal : 4/19/2017 10:30 pm : link
But the guy literally doesn't have one bad year to his name and he's off to a really nice start this year. He's been an incredibly consistent reliever for a decade now. 16M for 2 years was a very fair deal for a guy with his track record.

Oh well - what's done is done. Hopefully Familia coming back will give us the boost we need back there.
Not that anyone asked  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:33 pm : link
But if I had to guess, Reed does regress some. He was just insane last year. I think he's the kind of guy that would be solid-ish as a closer on some teams but not elite. As a setup man though he' s obviously very good and I think he'll still crack 1 fWAR as a reliever which is very good this year. I think Salas is probably overrated actually. I think he's a solid middle relief guy, nothing more. I do like that he has a little closer experience though. Robles was actually pretty good last year ups and downs and all and Blevins is an excellent LOOGY. Where my confidence really comes from is yes.. depth.... I really like Smoker... I think Sewald and now McGowen could be depth later... Lugo and Matz are going to complicate things when they return and somebody like Lugo might be added as the long man... and... Some of our current starters might have to pitch in the pen in the playoffs. If we stay relatively healthy the pen is going to be packed.
Wrong on both  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:34 pm : link
1. Lugo's best use to this team is as SP depth because if there's any team in the world that needs it, it's this one.

2. Holland got $6M for 1 year with an option and some incentives coming off surgery. If he would have turned down more money from a WS contender to go to Colorado he would have been the first pitcher to ever to do so. Pretty sure the myth about their school system has been thoroughly put to bed. Had anyone offered him $17M over 2 years he'd be there.
RE: Zeigler is old...  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:34 pm : link
In comment 13435008 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
But the guy literally doesn't have one bad year to his name and he's off to a really nice start this year. He's been an incredibly consistent reliever for a decade now. 16M for 2 years was a very fair deal for a guy with his track record.

Oh well - what's done is done. Hopefully Familia coming back will give us the boost we need back there.


I dont disagree. I wold have liked Zeigler.
RE: Wrong on both  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:37 pm : link
In comment 13435010 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
1. Lugo's best use to this team is as SP depth because if there's any team in the world that needs it, it's this one.

2. Holland got $6M for 1 year with an option and some incentives coming off surgery. If he would have turned down more money from a WS contender to go to Colorado he would have been the first pitcher to ever to do so. Pretty sure the myth about their school system has been thoroughly put to bed. Had anyone offered him $17M over 2 years he'd be there.


You know.. Ive been on the SP depth train with Lugo more than anyone but he'd obviously be good in the pen with that curveball and short bursts of velocity. Seems like the Mets were genuinely considering him there before the small tear was discovered in the spring. Now that there is a tear, I think it's even more likely he goes to the pen. Pitching less innings in a pen is likely better than pitching a full season starting between Vegas and Citi. Good news is Matz is now throwing too. Somebody is going to be odd man out. Does Gsellman go back to Vegas? Seems unthinkable but I cant see Wheeler or Matz going.
RE: Zeigler is old...  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:39 pm : link
In comment 13435008 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
But the guy literally doesn't have one bad year to his name and he's off to a really nice start this year. He's been an incredibly consistent reliever for a decade now. 16M for 2 years was a very fair deal for a guy with his track record.

Oh well - what's done is done. Hopefully Familia coming back will give us the boost we need back there.


Yea, the only upside is the possibility of trading for someone better than what was available this offseason at the deadline.
RE: RE: Wrong on both  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:42 pm : link
In comment 13435014 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13435010 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


1. Lugo's best use to this team is as SP depth because if there's any team in the world that needs it, it's this one.

2. Holland got $6M for 1 year with an option and some incentives coming off surgery. If he would have turned down more money from a WS contender to go to Colorado he would have been the first pitcher to ever to do so. Pretty sure the myth about their school system has been thoroughly put to bed. Had anyone offered him $17M over 2 years he'd be there.



You know.. Ive been on the SP depth train with Lugo more than anyone but he'd obviously be good in the pen with that curveball and short bursts of velocity. Seems like the Mets were genuinely considering him there before the small tear was discovered in the spring. Now that there is a tear, I think it's even more likely he goes to the pen. Pitching less innings in a pen is likely better than pitching a full season starting between Vegas and Citi. Good news is Matz is now throwing too. Somebody is going to be odd man out. Does Gsellman go back to Vegas? Seems unthinkable but I cant see Wheeler or Matz going.


Who knows, maybe they go to the 6-man? If their biggest issue is not having room for Gsellman/Lugo i'd file that in the "good problems to have" category.
and then there's that...  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:46 pm : link
Sandy has added a reliever and a big bat ever since we hit our "WS competing window". If we need to add another reliever we will. I'm not particularly concerned about it.

Clippard, Reed, and Salas were all pretty much acquired for peanuts.

What I am concerned about is our all-stars performing. Time for Familia to be the man and shut teams down when it matters most. I've already seen the Benitez story. I don't want to see it again.
RE: Duda remarkably combines with unreliability with inconsistency  
spike : 4/19/2017 10:48 pm : link
In comment 13434999 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
for 2 months in 2015 it looked like he made a good decision and things have been all downhill since.


I honestly don't think we are renewing his contract this offseason. We need a more stable and healthier presence at 1B.
RE: RE: RE: Wrong on both  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:48 pm : link
In comment 13435019 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13435014 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13435010 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


1. Lugo's best use to this team is as SP depth because if there's any team in the world that needs it, it's this one.

2. Holland got $6M for 1 year with an option and some incentives coming off surgery. If he would have turned down more money from a WS contender to go to Colorado he would have been the first pitcher to ever to do so. Pretty sure the myth about their school system has been thoroughly put to bed. Had anyone offered him $17M over 2 years he'd be there.



You know.. Ive been on the SP depth train with Lugo more than anyone but he'd obviously be good in the pen with that curveball and short bursts of velocity. Seems like the Mets were genuinely considering him there before the small tear was discovered in the spring. Now that there is a tear, I think it's even more likely he goes to the pen. Pitching less innings in a pen is likely better than pitching a full season starting between Vegas and Citi. Good news is Matz is now throwing too. Somebody is going to be odd man out. Does Gsellman go back to Vegas? Seems unthinkable but I cant see Wheeler or Matz going.



Who knows, maybe they go to the 6-man? If their biggest issue is not having room for Gsellman/Lugo i'd file that in the "good problems to have" category.


Sure. It's possible. If 6 guys are healthy and pitching though that means we have some depth and some wiggle room to possibly put Lugo in the pen. We'll see. Im fascinated to see how this season could play out. It could go so many different ways both in the rotation and lineup.
RE: RE: Duda remarkably combines with unreliability with inconsistency  
Eric on Li : 4/19/2017 10:49 pm : link
In comment 13435021 spike said:
Quote:
In comment 13434999 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


for 2 months in 2015 it looked like he made a good decision and things have been all downhill since.



I honestly don't think we are renewing his contract this offseason. We need a more stable and healthier presence at 1B.


He's a FA and there's probably <1% they even offer him a contract.
With Duda it all depends on what Smith does in Vegas..  
ZGiants98 : 4/19/2017 10:53 pm : link
If Smith struggles all year in Vegas they might indeed try to get him at a friendly deal. In the least, Duda is getting a QO that he likely turns down IMO. Smith rakes all year then yeah.. I think they do let Duda walk.
I love Big Lucas  
Vanzetti : 4/19/2017 11:16 pm : link
seems like a great guy. Really humble whenever he speaks to the media.

But in some ways, the sooner Mets move on from him, Grandy, Reyes and Walker the better.

They have Flores, Cecchini, Conforto and Riveria (as a fill-in). If those guys are all in the lineup by the end of June, it will serve the Mets the best in the longrun.

What's up with the attendance?  
bhill410 : 4/20/2017 3:45 am : link
Seems strange.

Also love how baseball is such a balancing act, if we trade Bruce maybe we afford a better bullpen but we would have what 3 definite losses? However with a better bullpen maybe we win 3 more games this year.
Figured I'd keep quiet about it  
Shecky : 4/20/2017 8:22 am : link
But this morning it still bothers me. Combination of two conversations we just had. Hustle (or lack of) and Collins getting his players to work hard for him.

One thing Terry does very well is always protects his players to the media. Players LOVE HIM for it.
BUT
on that play Ces tried to score... "I don't think it was that bad of a play". Come on Terry. He didn't get a good jump off the bat. Ran about 80% until HE decided he thought he could score. At that point he ran full speed, but RIGHT PAST HIS 3B coach giving him the stop sign.

I don't care about the result. Safe or out. You don't ignore your coaches. And as a coach, if my manager just OK'd it as opposed to reprimand the player, well... not picking, sure. But this isn't Monday morning QB. I bash this concept constantly,, and even the player. Can't let the narrative turn into "he hustled and tried to spark his struggling offense", which is exactly how it will. /endrant
What Collins says to the media  
spike : 4/20/2017 8:56 am : link
Mightt not be the same as to what he says to his players in private.

But I assume he would give his vets some leeway and not micromanage
You don't honestly think  
Shecky : 4/20/2017 9:04 am : link
Collins confronted Ces do you??
Really needed  
Metnut : 4/20/2017 9:21 am : link
that win last night. Glad to see Gsellmen look as good as we know he can be.

I've probably been the harshest on Jay Bruce on BBI so I certainly didn't see this coming but I'm glad it's happening. If Conforto really has figured it out then we're going to have an OF which can really mash.

No need to "give up" on Reyes yet, but he doesn't need to play every day either.
It's not hard to understand why players love him (at least the vets)  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 9:57 am : link
No matter how much they suck, how bad their approach is, or their lack of hustle or focus...he let's them play. Zero accountability.

But for the life of me, I can't see how younger players love him. Especially when they are producing and, in some cases, carrying the team. His who preachy mantra of "if you hit, you play" apparently only applies to younger players, not his aging, underperforming vets.

Different rules for different players. TC has no feel for the game and let's the vets run the show. He's even said as much (which I guess is not uncommon for vets to run the clubhouse). I know I'm in the minority but I do believe this team would be much better without TC.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 10:37 am : link
I still think people way over-emphasize the actual impact Terry has on this team. Maybe his bullpen management or lineups could be better. I doubt either would make a ton of difference in terms of wins and losses when all is said and done.

Ces ran through a stop sign - it happens. I don't think he needs to be chewed out for it. He got thrown out. He'll probably think better of it next time.
Managers are different than coaches in any other sport  
Eric on Li : 4/20/2017 11:00 am : link
the actual role of manager is much more about personality fit and keeping the team motivated and playing hard over the long haul - and in that regard he is a really good fit for this club. His BP management is not ideal but on the positive side in the playoffs a few years ago (and most big games last year) and we don't always have all of the information.

In terms of hustle and fundamentals, part of that may be on Collins style, but the other part is within the DNA of the players we have. On both accounts there's shared responsibility with those who assembled the roster in the first place, but also I think we need to understand there's always going to be the need to "take the good with the bad". No matter who his manager is, Cespedes is going to look lazy from time to time. Daniel Murphy's fundamentals will never be good running the bases or defensively. If we can't accept faults in players even if they have unique abilities and we want all try-hard types we'd need to be prepared to have a roster full of Brandon Nimmos.
Really can't bring myself to get worked up over a baserunning gaffe  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/20/2017 11:08 am : link
In April. He made an aggressive mistake. It happens and life goes on. It doesn't have to be a referendum on Terry Collins as a manager.
I don't think it's fruitful to focus on just one baserunning gaffe  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 11:36 am : link
either. It's better to look at the sum of the parts rather than just one specific scenario. I think it's more of a culture issue than an Xs and Os issue (which shouldn't be minimized either). Lack of accountability and fundamentals has been talked about with TC for years. This isn't a new thing. He has his favorites, caters to his favorites, mostly to the detriment of the team. Yes, I want veterans to be held accountable. They don't get a free pass because they are veterans. And if your vets have problem with that and cause issues in the clubhouse, then you have bigger problems.

Look at what happened with the Nationals when they went from Matt Williams to Dusty Baker. And at least Matt Williams won 97 games and was Mgr of the Year the season prior to being canned. Sometimes you need a culture of accountability to realize your potential. Of course, you also need the right players.
Good point  
Shecky : 4/20/2017 11:51 am : link
We got our one "base running gaffe" for the season out of the way. We're good now
.  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 12:02 pm : link
I'm sure we'll make a few other baserunning errors over the course of the season. Are there teams that this doesn't happen to? If so, I'd love to know who they are because I see other teams make equally egregious errors pretty regularly.
I feel like some of you are taking this as if it's unprecedented  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/20/2017 12:55 pm : link
That sometimes ballplayers make boneheaded mistakes.

Is it really a stretch to consider that in a game where one player created all the scoring, and after a few games of not hitting or scoring, a player just got jumpy and wanted to make something happen?

Besides, isn't Collins retiring after the year? It's a bit late for wishing he would change his stripes.

RE: .  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13435268 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I still think people way over-emphasize the actual impact Terry has on this team.


Virtually all baseball fans do this. By any objective measure, Joe Girardi's teams have overachieved in the past few years. They haven't been particularly successful, but he's gotten the most out of rosters of limited talent. However, go on any Yankee thread here and it's a bunch of "Durrrrr Clueless Joe sux!" comments.
Collins  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 12:59 pm : link
hasn't said he's retiring, he's implied he's considered it. Supposedly Dick Scott would be a heavy favorite for the job. I'd love for them to hire A-Rod but I don't expect it.
Verducci  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 1:01 pm : link
says the "new market standard" for the elite young players may be reaching as much as 40 million per season... Harper, Machado etc
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 1:08 pm : link
In comment 13435620 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13435268 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I still think people way over-emphasize the actual impact Terry has on this team.



Virtually all baseball fans do this. By any objective measure, Joe Girardi's teams have overachieved in the past few years. They haven't been particularly successful, but he's gotten the most out of rosters of limited talent. However, go on any Yankee thread here and it's a bunch of "Durrrrr Clueless Joe sux!" comments.


Yeah, I think baseball lends itself to paralysis by over-analysis sometimes. There's so much time to scrutinize every move because there's time between each play to do it.

I think a manger's job as a motivator is just as important as what he does as a tactician but think that neither have a major overall impact through the course of the season.

Compared to NFL coaches, the impact of a MLB manager is minimal.

Just seems like any time anything goes wrong, everyone always wants to blame the manager and not the players - but then when the players succeed, it has nothing to do with the manager. Weird double standard.
.  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 1:32 pm : link
Quote:
Michael Mayer‏ @mikemayerMMO 2m2 minutes ago

Worst wRC+ in MLB thus far

Byron Buxton -32
Devon Travis -29
Leonys Martin -15
Dansby Swanson -7
Jose Reyes -4
Paulo Orlando -1
RE: RE: RE: .  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13435640 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13435620 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 13435268 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I still think people way over-emphasize the actual impact Terry has on this team.



Virtually all baseball fans do this. By any objective measure, Joe Girardi's teams have overachieved in the past few years. They haven't been particularly successful, but he's gotten the most out of rosters of limited talent. However, go on any Yankee thread here and it's a bunch of "Durrrrr Clueless Joe sux!" comments.



Yeah, I think baseball lends itself to paralysis by over-analysis sometimes. There's so much time to scrutinize every move because there's time between each play to do it.

I think a manger's job as a motivator is just as important as what he does as a tactician but think that neither have a major overall impact through the course of the season.

Compared to NFL coaches, the impact of a MLB manager is minimal.

Just seems like any time anything goes wrong, everyone always wants to blame the manager and not the players - but then when the players succeed, it has nothing to do with the manager. Weird double standard.


I'm not sure that's true. Look at Joe Torre. Mediocre managerial career until the Yankees and all of a sudden Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettitte, plus all the other pieces wins a bunch of rings, playoffs every year, and now Torre is like the Yoda of managers and a hall of famer.

Probably others like him. Maybe Terry Francona.

I agree with you though baseball manager direct impact on wins/losses is relatively minor, however look at the standings, some years 1 game separates a team from playoffs and playing golf, or the WC game vs division winners or a play-in game just to make it to the WC, etc.

even if a manager can only directly impact the outcome of a handful of games, if it's on the negative side, that can be a big difference.




.  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 1:44 pm : link
It goes both ways, though. Decisions that lead to wins are rarely talked about while decisions that lead to losses turn into "the manager is clueless"

I just think it gets talked about too much considering the lack of context. I can live with or without Terry. I just don't think people realize that this is the case with every manager in the league. They all do shit that doesn't make sense.. like Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.
RE: .  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13435741 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
It goes both ways, though. Decisions that lead to wins are rarely talked about while decisions that lead to losses turn into "the manager is clueless"

I just think it gets talked about too much considering the lack of context. I can live with or without Terry. I just don't think people realize that this is the case with every manager in the league. They all do shit that doesn't make sense.. like Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.


I agree.
Mets should be in on this guy  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 1:56 pm : link
is there a good reason why they're not?

Quote:
MLB Pipeline‏Verified account @MLBPipeline 2m2 minutes ago

Cuban phenom Luis Robert cleared to sign with @MLB club. Which teams are in/out on "the best player on the planet?" http://atmlb.com/2pHGeOP


Quote:
One American League international scouting director described Robert, a right-handed hitter who profiles as center fielder with plus power and speed, as "the best player on the planet, and that's no exaggeration," Sanchez wrote earlier this year.


Quote:
The A's, Astros, Cardinals, White Sox, Padres and Reds are among the teams with strong interest in Robert, according to Sanchez.


Link - ( New Window )
a couple of things about Torre  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 1:59 pm : link
First of all, he was mediocre at best when it came to on the field decisions. He did OK when he had Zimmer as his bench coach. After Zimmer left, he was abysmal. He was one of the worst handlers of a bullpen I've ever seen, and over time his personnel decisions got worse and worse.

Second of all, the Yankees (especially back then under Big Stein) were a uniquely difficult environment. Torre's outstanding gift as manager was his ability to handle Steinbrenner and the NY media. He was a native NYer and had managed the Mets, so he knew what the pressure is like. He played the beats like a Stradivarius. He was a laid-back guy by nature and set out to make the clubhouse as stress-free as possible. Because the dynasty Yankee teams were comprised of guys who were mostly quiet professional-types, it worked quite well.

He was the classic case of the right guy with the right situation. He never would have succeeded like that with another franchise, and (although I'm not a big fan of his) I don't think the Yankees would have been as successful with another manager.
RE: .  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13435741 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.


Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.
RE: Mets should be in on this guy  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 2:02 pm : link
In comment 13435761 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
is there a good reason why they're not?



Quote:


MLB Pipeline‏Verified account @MLBPipeline 2m2 minutes ago

Cuban phenom Luis Robert cleared to sign with @MLB club. Which teams are in/out on "the best player on the planet?" http://atmlb.com/2pHGeOP





Quote:


One American League international scouting director described Robert, a right-handed hitter who profiles as center fielder with plus power and speed, as "the best player on the planet, and that's no exaggeration," Sanchez wrote earlier this year.





Quote:


The A's, Astros, Cardinals, White Sox, Padres and Reds are among the teams with strong interest in Robert, according to Sanchez.

Link - ( New Window )


They don't pursue big money IFA's... Ever. Send a scout? Maybe. But since Kaz Matsui they haven't been heavily involved for any of these guys. Did finish #2 for Ichiro though! lol
Maddon  
Shecky : 4/20/2017 2:04 pm : link
Was the biggest FA miss for the mets since Arod
The hyperbole in scouting gets a bit silly  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 2:05 pm : link
There's no question this Cuban guy is the best player on the planet? Did Mike Trout get shot into space or something?
Isn't that stupid though?  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 2:05 pm : link
I mean sure, some of these guys will flop (Rusney Castillo for one), but many won't and they're available for just cash.

Looking at the list of contenders, the Mets should be able to compete for this guy.

and I'm not saying be in on every one of them, you can't I get the INTL free agent market, but selectively a CF, who is the "best player on the planet" (LOL) might make sense.
RE: Isn't that stupid though?  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13435794 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
I mean sure, some of these guys will flop (Rusney Castillo for one), but many won't and they're available for just cash.

Looking at the list of contenders, the Mets should be able to compete for this guy.

and I'm not saying be in on every one of them, you can't I get the INTL free agent market, but selectively a CF, who is the "best player on the planet" (LOL) might make sense.


It is stupid. They are risk adverse and that's the long and short of it. You could defend them if it was 1-2 guys who they didn't bid on who ended up good players but they all but sit out the Cuban/Japanese markets
RE: The hyperbole in scouting gets a bit silly  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 2:12 pm : link
In comment 13435791 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
There's no question this Cuban guy is the best player on the planet? Did Mike Trout get shot into space or something?


Yeah, obviously hyperbole, it's like the guy is his agent, not a scout.
It's  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 2:14 pm : link
especially silly when you see the relative bargains guys like Cespedes, Chapman, Abreu, Moncada etc were. Dodgers have about 5 big Cuban signings, 2 of which are viewed as big time talents. Yadier Alvarez (16 million) is one of the top RHP prospects in baseball, they signed Yusniel Diaz who scouts rave about, Omar Estevez for 6 million etc etc. I'm not saying they need to be the Dodgers but it would be nice if once in a while they popped for one of these guys.
Raisel Iglesias  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 2:16 pm : link
7 years 27 million looks like an absolute steal for the Reds
Robert  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 2:17 pm : link
isn't the best player on the planet (obviously) but he's arguably the best position player not signed to an MLB club, he and Tetsuto Yamada
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13435771 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13435741 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.



Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.


Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.
RE: RE: RE: .  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 2:27 pm : link
In comment 13435640 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

Just seems like any time anything goes wrong, everyone always wants to blame the manager and not the players - but then when the players succeed, it has nothing to do with the manager. Weird double standard.


Eh, not sure I agree with this. I'm on every met thread and fans are killing the players waaaaaay more than the manager. And that's saying something considering its Terry Collins. Fans will get on TC for his boneheaded moves but I think the discussion around the mets manager has been more about team philosophy and approach, than "Collins sucks" type of comments. At least, so far this year.

I know a lot of fans think otherwise, but managers can definitely affect how a team performs, for a variety of reasons. I just feel, and have always felt that TC is on the negative side of that.

As Greg said, Girardi has show the ability to get the most out of lesser talent. There is the value in a manager. Getting the most out of your players. I feel the opposite about Terry.
RE: RE: RE: .  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 2:30 pm : link
In comment 13435819 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13435771 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 13435741 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.



Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.



Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.


Well, compared to Terry Collins, he is. And the Cubs were, far and away, the best team in baseball last season. And, you know, he actually won the world series. Again, a manager that can get the most out of his players.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 2:33 pm : link
In comment 13435845 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13435819 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13435771 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 13435741 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.



Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.



Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.



Well, compared to Terry Collins, he is. And the Cubs were, far and away, the best team in baseball last season. And, you know, he actually won the world series. Again, a manager that can get the most out of his players.


Yeah, I'm sure the Cubs winning the WS had nothing to do with an absolutely LOADED lineup full of young studs, excellent starting pitching, or an elite closer.

Just the brilliance of Joe Maddon...
.  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 2:35 pm : link
If there was a team in baseball with a better roster than the one the Cubs had at the end of last year, I'd love to know which team it was.
The Cubs would have been the best team with Bill Murray managing  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 2:42 pm : link
That team is stacked. They lost Schwarber for the regular season after week one and didn't even miss a beat.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13435853 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


Yeah, I'm sure the Cubs winning the WS had nothing to do with an absolutely LOADED lineup full of young studs, excellent starting pitching, or an elite closer.

Just the brilliance of Joe Maddon...


Of course it's about the players...but that doesn't mean that the manager has no affect. And based on our past conversations, we aren't going to agree on that because you place less importance on the manager than I do. Which is fine. I understand your side of it.

But I'll put it to you this way. Put Collins at the helm of the Cubs the last few years, and I don't think they win. It's a culture thing. And I don't think that Terry gets the most out of his players.
RE: The Cubs would have been the best team with Bill Murray managing  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13435869 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
That team is stacked. They lost Schwarber for the regular season after week one and didn't even miss a beat.


I'd rather have Bill Murray, lol.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/20/2017 2:52 pm : link
You really don't think the Cubs would have won the WS last year with Collins as their manager?

I don't really understand that logic. Didn't Collins' just get the Mets to the WS the year before with arguably less talent than the Cubs had and sweep a team that Maddon managed in the process? Why couldn't Maddon get one win against us in the NLCS if he has as much impact as is being suggested?

I think Maddon gets too much credit for being "unconventional".. I think he's a good manager - I'd take him over Collins. But I feel like he's discussed as this Belichick-ian presence sometimes which never made sense to me.

I think most managers could have won a WS with the roster the Cubs had last year. Including Collins.
he also managed a terrible WS  
Eric on Li : 4/20/2017 3:00 pm : link
especially his BP usage.
Looks  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 3:04 pm : link
like the league was right on Jose Bautista. He looks completely done.
Maddon took an extremely young, green team and managed them  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 3:04 pm : link
to 97 wins in 2015. They had 73 wins just the year before.

They were a young team just getting there, our pitching was fantastic, and Daniel Murphy went insane. That's why we beat them.

Then, they got better and the Mets got worse.

Again, I believe that Maddon manages up and Collins manages down. If I feel that Maddon gets the most out of his players and went to and won the WS, then why would I feel that they still get the same result when Collins DOESN'T get the most out of his players?
RE: Maddon took an extremely young, green team and managed them  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13435917 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
to 97 wins in 2015. They had 73 wins just the year before.

They were a young team just getting there, our pitching was fantastic, and Daniel Murphy went insane. That's why we beat them.

Then, they got better and the Mets got worse.

Again, I believe that Maddon manages up and Collins manages down. If I feel that Maddon gets the most out of his players and went to and won the WS, then why would I feel that they still get the same result when Collins DOESN'T get the most out of his players?


I wouldn't simply say the Mets got worse.

the Mets lost Harvey, deGrom, and Matz from that 2015 rotation. And Wright from the lineup. Wright was not awful in the NLDS.

So, yes they regressed, but injuries had more to do with it than simply getting worse.

Even without the Daniel Murphy FA loss.

Harvey and deGrom both went 7+ innings in that NLCS, in their only starts.
pj, yeah I thought about that too. Certainly didn't discount it.  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 3:37 pm : link
But our offense was awful last year, truly bad. I used to place most of the blame on injuries but also understood that we just have a flawed approach. And that's becoming more and more apparent.

Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.

I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.
RE: pj, yeah I thought about that too. Certainly didn't discount it.  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2017 3:46 pm : link
In comment 13435983 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
But our offense was awful last year, truly bad. I used to place most of the blame on injuries but also understood that we just have a flawed approach. And that's becoming more and more apparent.

Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.

I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.


well I don't think Terry is anything special and could be upgraded, but I also don't hold him solely accountable for the team performance in 2016 (good or bad)

RE: RE: pj, yeah I thought about that too. Certainly didn't discount it.  
PhiPsi125 : 4/20/2017 3:55 pm : link
In comment 13436002 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13435983 PhiPsi125 said:


Quote:


But our offense was awful last year, truly bad. I used to place most of the blame on injuries but also understood that we just have a flawed approach. And that's becoming more and more apparent.

Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.

I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.



well I don't think Terry is anything special and could be upgraded, but I also don't hold him solely accountable for the team performance in 2016 (good or bad)


We agree on that.
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