especially silly when you see the relative bargains guys like Cespedes, Chapman, Abreu, Moncada etc were. Dodgers have about 5 big Cuban signings, 2 of which are viewed as big time talents. Yadier Alvarez (16 million) is one of the top RHP prospects in baseball, they signed Yusniel Diaz who scouts rave about, Omar Estevez for 6 million etc etc. I'm not saying they need to be the Dodgers but it would be nice if once in a while they popped for one of these guys.
Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.
Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.
Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.
Just seems like any time anything goes wrong, everyone always wants to blame the manager and not the players - but then when the players succeed, it has nothing to do with the manager. Weird double standard.
Eh, not sure I agree with this. I'm on every met thread and fans are killing the players waaaaaay more than the manager. And that's saying something considering its Terry Collins. Fans will get on TC for his boneheaded moves but I think the discussion around the mets manager has been more about team philosophy and approach, than "Collins sucks" type of comments. At least, so far this year.
I know a lot of fans think otherwise, but managers can definitely affect how a team performs, for a variety of reasons. I just feel, and have always felt that TC is on the negative side of that.
As Greg said, Girardi has show the ability to get the most out of lesser talent. There is the value in a manager. Getting the most out of your players. I feel the opposite about Terry.
Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.
Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.
Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.
Well, compared to Terry Collins, he is. And the Cubs were, far and away, the best team in baseball last season. And, you know, he actually won the world series. Again, a manager that can get the most out of his players.
Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.
Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.
Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.
Well, compared to Terry Collins, he is. And the Cubs were, far and away, the best team in baseball last season. And, you know, he actually won the world series. Again, a manager that can get the most out of his players.
Yeah, I'm sure the Cubs winning the WS had nothing to do with an absolutely LOADED lineup full of young studs, excellent starting pitching, or an elite closer.
Yeah, I'm sure the Cubs winning the WS had nothing to do with an absolutely LOADED lineup full of young studs, excellent starting pitching, or an elite closer.
Just the brilliance of Joe Maddon...
Of course it's about the players...but that doesn't mean that the manager has no affect. And based on our past conversations, we aren't going to agree on that because you place less importance on the manager than I do. Which is fine. I understand your side of it.
But I'll put it to you this way. Put Collins at the helm of the Cubs the last few years, and I don't think they win. It's a culture thing. And I don't think that Terry gets the most out of his players.
RE: The Cubs would have been the best team with Bill Murray managing
You really don't think the Cubs would have won the WS last year with Collins as their manager?
I don't really understand that logic. Didn't Collins' just get the Mets to the WS the year before with arguably less talent than the Cubs had and sweep a team that Maddon managed in the process? Why couldn't Maddon get one win against us in the NLCS if he has as much impact as is being suggested?
I think Maddon gets too much credit for being "unconventional".. I think he's a good manager - I'd take him over Collins. But I feel like he's discussed as this Belichick-ian presence sometimes which never made sense to me.
I think most managers could have won a WS with the roster the Cubs had last year. Including Collins.
to 97 wins in 2015. They had 73 wins just the year before.
They were a young team just getting there, our pitching was fantastic, and Daniel Murphy went insane. That's why we beat them.
Then, they got better and the Mets got worse.
Again, I believe that Maddon manages up and Collins manages down. If I feel that Maddon gets the most out of his players and went to and won the WS, then why would I feel that they still get the same result when Collins DOESN'T get the most out of his players?
RE: Maddon took an extremely young, green team and managed them
to 97 wins in 2015. They had 73 wins just the year before.
They were a young team just getting there, our pitching was fantastic, and Daniel Murphy went insane. That's why we beat them.
Then, they got better and the Mets got worse.
Again, I believe that Maddon manages up and Collins manages down. If I feel that Maddon gets the most out of his players and went to and won the WS, then why would I feel that they still get the same result when Collins DOESN'T get the most out of his players?
I wouldn't simply say the Mets got worse.
the Mets lost Harvey, deGrom, and Matz from that 2015 rotation. And Wright from the lineup. Wright was not awful in the NLDS.
So, yes they regressed, but injuries had more to do with it than simply getting worse.
Even without the Daniel Murphy FA loss.
Harvey and deGrom both went 7+ innings in that NLCS, in their only starts.
pj, yeah I thought about that too. Certainly didn't discount it.
But our offense was awful last year, truly bad. I used to place most of the blame on injuries but also understood that we just have a flawed approach. And that's becoming more and more apparent.
Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.
I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.
RE: pj, yeah I thought about that too. Certainly didn't discount it.
But our offense was awful last year, truly bad. I used to place most of the blame on injuries but also understood that we just have a flawed approach. And that's becoming more and more apparent.
Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.
I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.
well I don't think Terry is anything special and could be upgraded, but I also don't hold him solely accountable for the team performance in 2016 (good or bad)
RE: RE: pj, yeah I thought about that too. Certainly didn't discount it.
But our offense was awful last year, truly bad. I used to place most of the blame on injuries but also understood that we just have a flawed approach. And that's becoming more and more apparent.
Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.
I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.
well I don't think Terry is anything special and could be upgraded, but I also don't hold him solely accountable for the team performance in 2016 (good or bad)
Quote:
Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.
Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.
Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.
Just seems like any time anything goes wrong, everyone always wants to blame the manager and not the players - but then when the players succeed, it has nothing to do with the manager. Weird double standard.
Eh, not sure I agree with this. I'm on every met thread and fans are killing the players waaaaaay more than the manager. And that's saying something considering its Terry Collins. Fans will get on TC for his boneheaded moves but I think the discussion around the mets manager has been more about team philosophy and approach, than "Collins sucks" type of comments. At least, so far this year.
I know a lot of fans think otherwise, but managers can definitely affect how a team performs, for a variety of reasons. I just feel, and have always felt that TC is on the negative side of that.
As Greg said, Girardi has show the ability to get the most out of lesser talent. There is the value in a manager. Getting the most out of your players. I feel the opposite about Terry.
Quote:
In comment 13435741 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.
Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.
Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.
Well, compared to Terry Collins, he is. And the Cubs were, far and away, the best team in baseball last season. And, you know, he actually won the world series. Again, a manager that can get the most out of his players.
Quote:
In comment 13435771 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13435741 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Buck never even getting Zach Britton on the mound in a 1 game playoff last October.
Or Joe Maddon, every writer's favorite innovative manager, doing all sorts of questionable things that almost cost his team the championship.
Yeah, don't mention that here... Maddon is apparently Jesus reincarnated. Nevermind the fact that Collins' team wiped the floor with Maddon's in the 2015 NLCS.
Well, compared to Terry Collins, he is. And the Cubs were, far and away, the best team in baseball last season. And, you know, he actually won the world series. Again, a manager that can get the most out of his players.
Yeah, I'm sure the Cubs winning the WS had nothing to do with an absolutely LOADED lineup full of young studs, excellent starting pitching, or an elite closer.
Just the brilliance of Joe Maddon...
Yeah, I'm sure the Cubs winning the WS had nothing to do with an absolutely LOADED lineup full of young studs, excellent starting pitching, or an elite closer.
Just the brilliance of Joe Maddon...
Of course it's about the players...but that doesn't mean that the manager has no affect. And based on our past conversations, we aren't going to agree on that because you place less importance on the manager than I do. Which is fine. I understand your side of it.
But I'll put it to you this way. Put Collins at the helm of the Cubs the last few years, and I don't think they win. It's a culture thing. And I don't think that Terry gets the most out of his players.
I'd rather have Bill Murray, lol.
I don't really understand that logic. Didn't Collins' just get the Mets to the WS the year before with arguably less talent than the Cubs had and sweep a team that Maddon managed in the process? Why couldn't Maddon get one win against us in the NLCS if he has as much impact as is being suggested?
I think Maddon gets too much credit for being "unconventional".. I think he's a good manager - I'd take him over Collins. But I feel like he's discussed as this Belichick-ian presence sometimes which never made sense to me.
I think most managers could have won a WS with the roster the Cubs had last year. Including Collins.
They were a young team just getting there, our pitching was fantastic, and Daniel Murphy went insane. That's why we beat them.
Then, they got better and the Mets got worse.
Again, I believe that Maddon manages up and Collins manages down. If I feel that Maddon gets the most out of his players and went to and won the WS, then why would I feel that they still get the same result when Collins DOESN'T get the most out of his players?
They were a young team just getting there, our pitching was fantastic, and Daniel Murphy went insane. That's why we beat them.
Then, they got better and the Mets got worse.
Again, I believe that Maddon manages up and Collins manages down. If I feel that Maddon gets the most out of his players and went to and won the WS, then why would I feel that they still get the same result when Collins DOESN'T get the most out of his players?
I wouldn't simply say the Mets got worse.
the Mets lost Harvey, deGrom, and Matz from that 2015 rotation. And Wright from the lineup. Wright was not awful in the NLDS.
So, yes they regressed, but injuries had more to do with it than simply getting worse.
Even without the Daniel Murphy FA loss.
Harvey and deGrom both went 7+ innings in that NLCS, in their only starts.
Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.
I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.
Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.
I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.
well I don't think Terry is anything special and could be upgraded, but I also don't hold him solely accountable for the team performance in 2016 (good or bad)
Quote:
But our offense was awful last year, truly bad. I used to place most of the blame on injuries but also understood that we just have a flawed approach. And that's becoming more and more apparent.
Listen, I'm not going to sit here an bash TC all year because, frankly, I'm exhausted of that. TC is what he is, and that is a mediocre/below average manager. If he's not making his team better than he's making the team worse. And I don't feel he makes the team better.
I understand why some of you feel otherwise, but I also don't think that my viewpoint is difficult to believe. But I also don't want to make this whole season about Terry.
well I don't think Terry is anything special and could be upgraded, but I also don't hold him solely accountable for the team performance in 2016 (good or bad)
We agree on that.