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NFT: Knicks chat: Trouble from the top down

DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 9:58 am
Quote:
After over six months of silence, Phil Jackson finally spoke with the media last week. During his nearly hour-long press conference, Jackson addressed a broad range of issues. Many of them have been covered in depth, including his startling assessment of Carmelo Anthony and Melos future in New York, as well as his admission that he plans to take a more hands-on approach in practices next season.

However, one topic that hasnt been discussed much was Jackson alluding to, on numerous occasions, how the system he is running with the Knicks is similar to that of the San Antonio Spurs and the NFLs New England Patriots.

When asked about the Triangle, Phils meandering answer eventually led to him discussing current dynastic franchises and the men responsible for running them. Jackson explained that he believes its crucial to have a trusted template when you build a system of anything.

Jackson elaborated on this point.

Its no wonder the Spurs can have some success continuing their action, Jackson said. Or the Patriots can have success, because they can put people in places. We could do that with the Bulls and the Lakers. You can have something thats concrete.

Whether its teams that I have coached or Belichick, there is an identifiable way in which they play. When you develop that system so that people are all on board with that system, then you have something thats concrete. A format.

It all made sense, especially coming from one of the greatest coaches in NBA history. However, Phil is no longer a coach, which is part of the reason why his comments missed the mark. Also, the premise of his argument was off-base as well.

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Shocking I tell you  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 10:03 am : link
Anthony is in the middle of a $124 million contract, and has raked in more than $200 million during his career. La Las earnings have not been nearly as high as an actress, model and producer, according to the gossip site.
KP  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 10:04 am : link
downplayed being upset at the Knicks but seemingly did confirm it was the case.
I think he's entirely wrong about the Pats  
trueblueinpw : 4/20/2017 10:04 am : link
I think what has made Belichick such a great coach is that he *isn't* tied to any one particular system. If there's a more fluid organization in pro sports I'd like to know.
Question. I definitely know very little about how the NBA works  
adamg : 4/20/2017 10:06 am : link
So, I have no idea if this is a crazy question, but is there any way Melo could end up in OKC?

Seems like they could use a guy who can shoot other than Westbrook.
RE: Question. I definitely know very little about how the NBA works  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 10:07 am : link
In comment 13435219 adamg said:
Quote:
So, I have no idea if this is a crazy question, but is there any way Melo could end up in OKC?

Seems like they could use a guy who can shoot other than Westbrook.


In theory yes, if he agreed to waive his NTC there are workable trades with OKC.
RE: RE: Question. I definitely know very little about how the NBA works  
adamg : 4/20/2017 10:09 am : link
In comment 13435222 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 13435219 adamg said:


Quote:


So, I have no idea if this is a crazy question, but is there any way Melo could end up in OKC?

Seems like they could use a guy who can shoot other than Westbrook.



In theory yes, if he agreed to waive his NTC there are workable trades with OKC.


Thanks. I know everything has to go through Melo, so virtually any trade is a long shot from the get go. With how toxic it's become in NYC though...

I'd like to see how Westbrook would fare with Melo. They seem like they would complement each other well.
RE: I think he's entirely wrong about the Pats  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 10:13 am : link
In comment 13435218 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
I think what has made Belichick such a great coach is that he *isn't* tied to any one particular system. If there's a more fluid organization in pro sports I'd like to know.


This is true. The genius of Belichick is that that he continually adapts his schemes to the players he has. He tweaks things to emphasize what players do well and minimize what they don't do well.
RE: RE: RE: Question. I definitely know very little about how the NBA works  
Giantology : 4/20/2017 10:16 am : link
In comment 13435225 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13435222 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 13435219 adamg said:


Quote:


So, I have no idea if this is a crazy question, but is there any way Melo could end up in OKC?

Seems like they could use a guy who can shoot other than Westbrook.



In theory yes, if he agreed to waive his NTC there are workable trades with OKC.



Thanks. I know everything has to go through Melo, so virtually any trade is a long shot from the get go. With how toxic it's become in NYC though...

I'd like to see how Westbrook would fare with Melo. They seem like they would complement each other well.


They would? There's only one basketball.
So he's had 3 years here as the unquestioned chief of operations  
Stu11 : 4/20/2017 10:19 am : link
and the ability to literally turn over the whole roster, which is unheard of in the NBA. He could have built any template he wanted. The organization is a laughing stock with little to no direction. Yea Phil ok sell your zen bullshit to someone who buys it in Chicago or LA...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Question. I definitely know very little about how the NBA works  
adamg : 4/20/2017 10:22 am : link
In comment 13435231 Giantology said:
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In comment 13435225 adamg said:


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In comment 13435222 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 13435219 adamg said:


Quote:


So, I have no idea if this is a crazy question, but is there any way Melo could end up in OKC?

Seems like they could use a guy who can shoot other than Westbrook.



In theory yes, if he agreed to waive his NTC there are workable trades with OKC.



Thanks. I know everything has to go through Melo, so virtually any trade is a long shot from the get go. With how toxic it's become in NYC though...

I'd like to see how Westbrook would fare with Melo. They seem like they would complement each other well.



They would? There's only one basketball.


When Westbrook comes off the floor his team is like -infinity. Having a guy who hits open shots seems like a good fit imo. I get what you're saying, but I still think they may be a good combo.
RE: Shocking I tell you  
TheManUpstairs : 4/20/2017 10:24 am : link
In comment 13435216 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Anthony is in the middle of a $124 million contract, and has raked in more than $200 million during his career. La Las earnings have not been nearly as high as an actress, model and producer, according to the gossip site.


Yeah, even if she can suck the chrome off a bumper -- as seems likely -- the money's not that good.
Westbrook is a great player  
nygiants16 : 4/20/2017 10:25 am : link
bit matching him with anlther superstar is going to be tough because all he wants is the ball in his hands
RE: So he's had 3 years here as the unquestioned chief of operations  
Enzo : 4/20/2017 10:29 am : link
In comment 13435234 Stu11 said:
Quote:
and the ability to literally turn over the whole roster, which is unheard of in the NBA. He could have built any template he wanted. The organization is a laughing stock with little to no direction. Yea Phil ok sell your zen bullshit to someone who buys it in Chicago or LA...

it's always someone else's fault. Last week he talked about "resistance" towards the triangle. In prior interviews, it was nonsense about today's players not having the proper fundamentals or footwork to run the triangle. It's all a bunch of bullshit. He's more lost than I thought he was.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Question. I definitely know very little about how the NBA works  
Giantology : 4/20/2017 10:36 am : link
In comment 13435240 adamg said:
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In comment 13435231 Giantology said:


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In comment 13435225 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13435222 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 13435219 adamg said:


Quote:


So, I have no idea if this is a crazy question, but is there any way Melo could end up in OKC?

Seems like they could use a guy who can shoot other than Westbrook.



In theory yes, if he agreed to waive his NTC there are workable trades with OKC.



Thanks. I know everything has to go through Melo, so virtually any trade is a long shot from the get go. With how toxic it's become in NYC though...

I'd like to see how Westbrook would fare with Melo. They seem like they would complement each other well.



They would? There's only one basketball.



When Westbrook comes off the floor his team is like -infinity. Having a guy who hits open shots seems like a good fit imo. I get what you're saying, but I still think they may be a good combo.


Of course the Thunder would love more shooters, but I have a hard time seeing how Melo would mesh on that team. Westbrook would grow tired of his ISO ball pretty quickly.
RE: I think he's entirely wrong about the Pats  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 4/20/2017 10:37 am : link
In comment 13435218 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
I think what has made Belichick such a great coach is that he *isn't* tied to any one particular system. If there's a more fluid organization in pro sports I'd like to know.


He is tied to one particular system and thats why they are great. The offensive playbook and verbage is the same year in and year out, so they can morph into whatever they need to be for any game. Same with the defense. Tom Brady has learned 1 system his entire career, and because of it he knows multiple layers of that system.

Phil is talking more about an entire organizational system, which Belicheck has as well. He has a feeder system for coaches, a way to badger players down to take cheaper contracts/start side businesses that run through the organization, every player he takes could if needed to play multiple positions.

Phil is saying we need a blueprint here that everyone from the top down needs to buy into and really he is right about that.
Daily News are doing their annual Keep/dump feature  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 10:38 am : link
I can't seem to figure out what the vote totals are but...

63.8% say dump Melo
77.4 % say dump Rose
92.8% say dump Noah
5.2% say dump KP
21% say dump Baker
7.2% say dump Willy
86.8% say dump Phil
92.5% say dump Dolan
49% say dump Hornacek
87.5% say dump Rambis
Phil believes his own pseudomystical shit  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 10:42 am : link
Read Sacred Hoops sometime. He honestly views the Triangle as more of a life philosophy than a basketball system. He can't adapt because adapting would deny who he is at a very fundamental level.

And I can't believe only 87.5% voted to dump Rambis. Who are the people who want to keep that guy around??
In  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 10:44 am : link
an ideal world I think a guy like prime Ray Allen would be perfect for Westbrook, a quick release catch and shoot guy who could take advantage of Westbrook drawing doubles.
Knicks question...  
Chris684 : 4/20/2017 10:47 am : link
Let's assume the Celtics get closed out by Chicago and they lock up the number 1 pick and like Fultz.

Any chance a deal can be worked out centered around Carmelo for Isiah Thomas?
RE: Knicks question...  
nygiants16 : 4/20/2017 10:52 am : link
In comment 13435287 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Let's assume the Celtics get closed out by Chicago and they lock up the number 1 pick and like Fultz.

Any chance a deal can be worked out centered around Carmelo for Isiah Thomas?


why would you do that? the whole poijt of getting rid of melo is to go younger with woth kp...

you going to trade for it who is 30 and then give him a huge contract? makes zero sense
Man that's a bad poll for Phil  
Deej : 4/20/2017 10:54 am : link
from the common fan. There is a group of fans out there saying "Lose Phil, but keep Rose". Yikes.
RE: Knicks question...  
Enzo : 4/20/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13435287 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Let's assume the Celtics get closed out by Chicago and they lock up the number 1 pick and like Fultz.

Any chance a deal can be worked out centered around Carmelo for Isiah Thomas?

sounds like one of those trades that wouldn't make sense for either team. If the Celtics are trading Thomas they likely want young pieces back. If the Knicks are trading Melo they want the same. And keep in mind Thomas is going to be looking for a HUGE deal after next summer. He's been playing for cheap the last few years, relatively speaking.
Melo would be good off the bench for OKC  
giantsfan44ab : 4/20/2017 10:57 am : link
Russ likes to push the pace tho so I don't think it would be as good of a fit as everyone is projecting. Is Melo going to be one of the bigs that blocks out boards for Russ to catch and run up stream? Hard to imagine.
Funny to think  
ryanmkeane : 4/20/2017 11:03 am : link
that things were so bad before Phil it was almost as if they couldn't get worse. And now look..
.  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 11:04 am : link
Roland Lazenby‏ @lazenby 6s6 seconds ago
More
The Lakers once asked Tex Winter not to retire specifically because there was no one in the organization strong enough to deal with Phil.
RE: I think he's entirely wrong about the Pats  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/20/2017 11:07 am : link
In comment 13435218 trueblueinpw said:
[quote] I think what has made Belichick such a great coach is that he *isn't* tied to any one particular system. If there's a more fluid organization in pro sports I'd like to know. [/quote

Yup. Jacksons greatest skill was managing egos. He's an arrogant asshole. His system is awesome. As long as you have Jordan Scottie Shaq and Kobe
For the life of me I dont know why people pencil in the Celts  
Deej : 4/20/2017 11:08 am : link
for the #1 overall pick. They have a 1 in 4 chance of getting it.

Anyway, I think Fultz actually helps the long term prospects of Thomas staying in BOS. Realistically he should be the world's best 6th man. A guy you max out to be the 6th man.
RE: .  
Deej : 4/20/2017 11:08 am : link
In comment 13435324 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Roland Lazenby‏ @lazenby 6s6 seconds ago
More
The Lakers once asked Tex Winter not to retire specifically because there was no one in the organization strong enough to deal with Phil.


Well, they didnt have Steve Mills
Chad  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 11:09 am : link
Ford said teams he's spoken to don't buy the Lakers would take Ball over Fultz despite all of the buzz.
RE: Funny to think  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2017 11:13 am : link
In comment 13435321 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that things were so bad before Phil it was almost as if they couldn't get worse. And now look..


They still aren't worse. The Knicks are not in cap hell and they haven't continued to throw away first round picks in shitty trades. Things aren't GOOD, but people really choose to forget how awful the Knicks have been and for how long.
The thing is...  
Jan in DC : 4/20/2017 11:14 am : link
D'Antoni had a very distinctive way of playing that was adapted and recognizable. Just like Phil is talking about. And that way sucked. So, that's not the answer. Just because there's a system in place, doesn't mean it's a good one.

I think if you read between the lines a little bit, it appears that he's saying that he can't put all the people in place that he WANTS to, which probably means that he wanted to hire Rambis but someone in the org told him it wasn't a good idea, or maybe even overruled him.

Or maybe I'm just reading into things too much.
RE: For the life of me I dont know why people pencil in the Celts  
giantsfan44ab : 4/20/2017 11:22 am : link
In comment 13435335 Deej said:
Quote:
for the #1 overall pick. They have a 1 in 4 chance of getting it.

Anyway, I think Fultz actually helps the long term prospects of Thomas staying in BOS. Realistically he should be the world's best 6th man. A guy you max out to be the 6th man.


Yeah, greatest 6th man of all time. Williams sniped the award from him in Toronto, I guess thomas didn't come off the bench entirely that year. But isn't Thomas's max going to be near $40M? I think very few players are actually worth that much in the league, but some team will likely give it to him if Boston doesn't. Is paying Bradley, horford and thomas a combined $100M a year really the best way to go about things? Hard envisioning ainge doing that. I'm assuming he trades off smart and maybe even Crowder in that scenario as well.
Celtics  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 11:26 am : link
are still in a pretty sweet position given their picks + Yabusele + Zizic. As Knicks fans we got a bit "lucky" that Ainge hasn't been an especially great drafter but both Yabusele and Zizic have very positive buzz. Even that 2019 Grizzlies pick looks like a potentially massive value. That is not a young team.
nike may not make an offer to ball  
nygiants16 : 4/20/2017 11:26 am : link
want nothing to do with his father, say he is the worst thing to happen to basketball in 100 years
RE: RE: Funny to think  
Enzo : 4/20/2017 11:32 am : link
In comment 13435349 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13435321 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


that things were so bad before Phil it was almost as if they couldn't get worse. And now look..



They still aren't worse. The Knicks are not in cap hell and they haven't continued to throw away first round picks in shitty trades. Things aren't GOOD, but people really choose to forget how awful the Knicks have been and for how long.

don't disagree, however even during the worst of the Isiah era, the Knicks were still seen as a destination. Phil has pretty much ruined that.
Celtics have a lot of ancillary pieces  
Deej : 4/20/2017 11:33 am : link
They dont have a guy who can be the #1 player on a title team and very, very likely no one to be #2. They need these picks/Brown to really pan out.
He has some fucking nerve  
PaulN : 4/20/2017 11:34 am : link
So it was his system, not Jordan and Pippen, and then not Shaq and Kobe, it was his system that made them win, what a fucking joke.
RE: Celtics have a lot of ancillary pieces  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13435398 Deej said:
Quote:
They dont have a guy who can be the #1 player on a title team and very, very likely no one to be #2. They need these picks/Brown to really pan out.


I don't disagree. Which is why I think they finally look to give up pieces to land a Butler or PG13. If anyone has chips to land a superstar it's likely them.
RE: RE: RE: Funny to think  
giantsfan44ab : 4/20/2017 11:35 am : link
In comment 13435396 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13435349 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 13435321 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


that things were so bad before Phil it was almost as if they couldn't get worse. And now look..



They still aren't worse. The Knicks are not in cap hell and they haven't continued to throw away first round picks in shitty trades. Things aren't GOOD, but people really choose to forget how awful the Knicks have been and for how long.


don't disagree, however even during the worst of the Isiah era, the Knicks were still seen as a destination. Phil has pretty much ruined that.


I guess we are fortunate that the new CBA puts less of an emphasis on being a "destination" team and instead emphasizes hitting on draft picks.
RE: Daily News are doing their annual Keep/dump feature  
giants#1 : 4/20/2017 11:36 am : link
In comment 13435270 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
I can't seem to figure out what the vote totals are but...

63.8% say dump Melo
77.4 % say dump Rose
92.8% say dump Noah
5.2% say dump KP
21% say dump Baker
7.2% say dump Willy
86.8% say dump Phil
92.5% say dump Dolan
49% say dump Hornacek
87.5% say dump Rambis


That poll must have a huge margin of error. No way 7.5% think they should keep Dolan.
Can we safely say Butler and PG ARE  
giantsfan44ab : 4/20/2017 11:39 am : link
#1s in today's league? Says more about the teams at the top than either of those 2. That's why I think ainge is hesitant. I hold Butler in a little higher regard than PG personally, I wouldn't throw out PG as even a #2 option unless he was on San Antonio and MAYBE Houston but that's about it. Maybe butler as well.
RE: He has some fucking nerve  
nygiants16 : 4/20/2017 11:39 am : link
In comment 13435404 PaulN said:
Quote:
So it was his system, not Jordan and Pippen, and then not Shaq and Kobe, it was his system that made them win, what a fucking joke.


well to be fair jordan, pippen and kobe did not win in any other system..

and shaq begged riley to fire stan van gundy for him to win another...
RE: Can we safely say Butler and PG ARE  
nygiants16 : 4/20/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13435417 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
#1s in today's league? Says more about the teams at the top than either of those 2. That's why I think ainge is hesitant. I hold Butler in a little higher regard than PG personally, I wouldn't throw out PG as even a #2 option unless he was on San Antonio and MAYBE Houston but that's about it. Maybe butler as well.


i think both are 2s that if they get moved will require a number 1 package to get them...

if i am the celtics i stand pat make good on the picks and set themselves up for the future
Well  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 11:42 am : link
I'd argue if Butler isn't a #1 then there really aren't more than a handful in the entire league. I mean how many players are clearly better than Jimmy Butler?

Lebron, Leonard, Westbrook, Harden, Greek Freak, Curry, Towns maybe I'm missing 1 or 2 but how many total players in the league are "clearly" better?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Funny to think  
Enzo : 4/20/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13435407 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13435396 Enzo said:


Quote:


In comment 13435349 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 13435321 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


that things were so bad before Phil it was almost as if they couldn't get worse. And now look..



They still aren't worse. The Knicks are not in cap hell and they haven't continued to throw away first round picks in shitty trades. Things aren't GOOD, but people really choose to forget how awful the Knicks have been and for how long.


don't disagree, however even during the worst of the Isiah era, the Knicks were still seen as a destination. Phil has pretty much ruined that.



I guess we are fortunate that the new CBA puts less of an emphasis on being a "destination" team and instead emphasizes hitting on draft picks.

also true. But you don't want to be a team that players active try to avoid either. I'm not saying they're at that point yet, but belittling your star player through the media and sparring with guys like LeBron doesn't help.
His system is great, and a thing of beauty to watch  
bceagle05 : 4/20/2017 11:45 am : link
when executed properly. If he would just stop harping on it so much he wouldn't be the only coach in history to get criticized for winning with great players. How many HOFers have Riley, Pop and Auerbach coached? Nobody ever brings it up because those guys never patted themselves on the back like this. What an arrogant prick.
RE: RE: Can we safely say Butler and PG ARE  
giantsfan44ab : 4/20/2017 11:46 am : link
In comment 13435425 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13435417 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


#1s in today's league? Says more about the teams at the top than either of those 2. That's why I think ainge is hesitant. I hold Butler in a little higher regard than PG personally, I wouldn't throw out PG as even a #2 option unless he was on San Antonio and MAYBE Houston but that's about it. Maybe butler as well.



i think both are 2s that if they get moved will require a number 1 package to get them...

if i am the celtics i stand pat make good on the picks and set themselves up for the future


I agree with you.

Just thinking about it practically. You replace Morris in Washington with PG/Butler, yeah I can see them taking on Cleveland. But do you give them more than a game against GS? Maybe 2. I guess you still do that trade just for a chance to get to the finals and then who knows what happens.

I just think Boston is much greater than the sum of their parts in the regular season. Playoff wise they are the equivalent of a 6-7 seed, they're gonna need both Butler AND PG to get in to the discussion with Cleveland IMO.
RE: I think he's entirely wrong about the Pats  
Beezer : 4/20/2017 11:51 am : link
In comment 13435218 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
I think what has made Belichick such a great coach is that he *isn't* tied to any one particular system. If there's a more fluid organization in pro sports I'd like to know.


Yeah, I completely agree with this. BB has a great, but also adaptive quarterback at his disposal. He hit the jackpot with Brady, and he adjusts very well - maybe better than anyone in the history of coaching, who is not named Popovich.
RE: Well  
Deej : 4/20/2017 11:53 am : link
In comment 13435436 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
I'd argue if Butler isn't a #1 then there really aren't more than a handful in the entire league. I mean how many players are clearly better than Jimmy Butler?

Lebron, Leonard, Westbrook, Harden, Greek Freak, Curry, Towns maybe I'm missing 1 or 2 but how many total players in the league are "clearly" better?


I dont think Butler is a guy who can be the #1 player on a title team, but I might be wrong. Im a bit more sure about PG. Both would be at least good #2s.

To address your point, I dont think that everyone on that list is necessarily good enough to be the best player on a title team. Towns is not. Harden and Westbrook have opened my eyes this year but are still borderline. GF is so talented -- I want to say not yet but who knows.

Key is that these are rough definitions. You dont NEED at #1 player to win a title (2004 Pistons). I'd argue Dirk was not a top 5 player the year Dallas won. But generally, titles are won by guys who are often high up in the MVP convo.
Barkley  
DanMetroMan : 4/20/2017 11:56 am : link
is so enamored by GF that I have to believe at least part of it is his attempt to take a shot at Lebron. I've never heard Barkley so in love.
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