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Gil Brandt .... Giants may draft a QB.

Archer : 4/21/2017 12:26 pm
Gil Brandt was on Sirius radio this morning.
He was talking about teams that could draft a QB.
Gil suggested that the Giants were a prime candidate to select a QB. He also suggested that this is likely what the Giants will do.

Two players mentioned that the Giants may be targeting are Watson and Mahomes.

They are two completely different players.

Mahomes has rare arm talent. At his pro day, Mahomes easily threw the ball 80 yards. His velocity, at the combine, of 60 mph was the highest recorded since 2008. He is mobile and has all the attributes that you want in a QB.

However, he is very raw and will take a while to develop.

Watson is the antithesis of Mahomes in that he has a weak arm. His velocity at the combine varied from 44 mph - 49 mph. To put this in perspective since 2008, QBs who have been drafted with a 49 mph velocity include; Mike Glennon, Tonny Pike, Dan LeFavour,and Josh Johnson.The draftable threshold velocity for QBs is considered to be 55 mph.

There are some teams including the Giants who apparently do not put much stock in arm velocity. The Giants may believe that Watson has mechanical flaws that can be corrected.

I do not think that the Giants should draft a qb this year for many reasons, but, if they were I would take a chance on Mahomes.

Watson scares me.

In looking back at his games a lot of his throws are short passes less than 15 yards. His interceptions are not due to a lack of accuracy but the ball hangs. Michael Wiiliams saved Watson at least another 2-3 interceptions,by winning many contested balls.

I do not think that Watson's game translates to the NFL.
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I don't mind taking one  
UConn4523 : 4/21/2017 12:26 pm : link
I just hope it isn't on day 1 or 2.
That makes no sense  
ZogZerg : 4/21/2017 12:28 pm : link
as far as his suggested 2 QBs go.
I think he is way off.
It makes sense if they think the guy is a franchise quarterback  
joeinpa : 4/21/2017 12:30 pm : link
but on the short term, you hate to see them spend #23 here
good thread though  
UConn4523 : 4/21/2017 12:30 pm : link
a couple notes I saw on this from Benjamin Allbright are alarming for Watson:

"For combine velocity measurement for QBs remember this. Over 55 mph doesnt guarantee success, but under it pretty much guarantees failure"

"2 mph ball velocity might not seem like a big deal, but it translates to 3 ft traveled on 20 yd throw in same time frame. Huge NFL window"
I could see Mahomes.  
Kevin in Annapolis : 4/21/2017 12:34 pm : link
The Giants would be a good place for him because he could sit and learn for a year or two.

Not saying we should, but if the FO thinks that he can be special then I could see it.
RE: good thread though  
Kevin in Annapolis : 4/21/2017 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13437321 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
a couple notes I saw on this from Benjamin Allbright are alarming for Watson:

"For combine velocity measurement for QBs remember this. Over 55 mph doesnt guarantee success, but under it pretty much guarantees failure"

"2 mph ball velocity might not seem like a big deal, but it translates to 3 ft traveled on 20 yd throw in same time frame. Huge NFL window"


Excellent points
We'll take a project QB  
HoustonGiant : 4/21/2017 12:35 pm : link
Day 3
Would be nice to know  
mrvax : 4/21/2017 12:36 pm : link
what C. Pennington & P. Rivers velocity was at the combine.
They are considered not very strong armed but rather successful NFL QBs.
2008-17  
UConn4523 : 4/21/2017 12:37 pm : link
breakdown. Virtually all QB's are over 50mph. For Watson to be in that 45mph average would absolutely knock him down for me.

There's always an exception to the rule, but this shouldn't be ignored. When you see a guy like Dak Prescott who looks like he can't hit open WR's downfield with consistency and threw on average 9-10 mph faster than Watson, it makes you think Watson will struggle greatly throwing into tight windows.
Ball Velocity - ( New Window )
RE: We'll take a project QB  
mrvax : 4/21/2017 12:38 pm : link
In comment 13437331 HoustonGiant said:
Quote:
Day 3


Wouldn't you rather wait a year, see what happens with Geno, then draft a QB next year in a QB rich draft? I would wait.
Please wait until next year  
Jay on the Island : 4/21/2017 12:42 pm : link
If Eli continues to decline this year then the Giants should do whatever they have to to move into the top 5 next year to draft one of the top QB's who have a much higher upside then any in this class. I know it will be expensive to move up that far but it will be worth it in the long run.
This is voodoo football science at this time  
Torrag : 4/21/2017 12:47 pm : link
They've only been charting this since 2008 at the Combine. Apply it to QB's drafted early enough to have an expectation they may factor as potential starters in the NFL. This results in a miniscule data sample not worth drawing any supported conclusions from.
RE: We'll take a project QB  
Vin R : 4/21/2017 12:49 pm : link
In comment 13437331 HoustonGiant said:
Quote:
Day 3


Sup..

RE: Please wait until next year  
Kevin in Annapolis : 4/21/2017 12:49 pm : link
In comment 13437344 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
If Eli continues to decline this year then the Giants should do whatever they have to to move into the top 5 next year to draft one of the top QB's who have a much higher upside then any in this class. I know it will be expensive to move up that far but it will be worth it in the long run.


Just playing devils advocate, but taking a QB this year and not having to draft a QB next year could allow for a very good player at another position to be there for us to draft in 2018 since so many QBs are projected to go high in the draft.

Also, I think we would all like to be picking 32, or at least in the back end of the draft next year. Would a trade up into the top 5 from the bottom 10 be something we would ever consider.
The Giants may draft a QB.  
81_Great_Dane : 4/21/2017 12:50 pm : link
The Giants may draft no QB.

#DraftAnalysis
RE: The Giants may draft a QB.  
Kevin in Annapolis : 4/21/2017 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13437356 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
The Giants may draft no QB.

#DraftAnalysis


Agreed
RE: RE: We'll take a project QB  
Rjanyg : 4/21/2017 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13437335 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13437331 HoustonGiant said:


Quote:


Day 3



Wouldn't you rather wait a year, see what happens with Geno, then draft a QB next year in a QB rich draft? I would wait.


Yes, wait until next year. 100% agree.
RE: This is voodoo football science at this time  
UConn4523 : 4/21/2017 12:56 pm : link
In comment 13437352 Torrag said:
Quote:
They've only been charting this since 2008 at the Combine. Apply it to QB's drafted early enough to have an expectation they may factor as potential starters in the NFL. This results in a miniscule data sample not worth drawing any supported conclusions from.


Its still a decade (and I didn't count but that must have been around 100 QB's), I wouldn't call that minuscule. There's exceptions to the rule of course, but it proves that he's going to struggle with getting zip on the ball, unless for that 1 day he just had a bad showing (doubt it). Maybe all of his other intangibles makes up for it, but that's a really big draw back on a 1st round QB, IMO.
The  
AcidTest : 4/21/2017 12:57 pm : link
lack of ball velocity for Watson is particularly problematic since he'll be throwing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands late in the season. Watson looks like a better, more mobile version of Danny Kanell. Great kid, but pass.

Mahomes is the classic "high ceiling," "low floor" player. Terrible mechanics and footwork. Great arm, but Kyle Boller once threw the ball through the goalposts from the 50 yard line on his knees. He was drafted in the first round. Couldn't play.

It's moot anyway, because they'll both be gone by #23.

The Giants shouldn't take any QB this year, but if they insist, then make it Seth Russell of Baylor on day three. He has a lot of the same qualities as Mahomes, but because of injuries in 2015 and 2016, can be had much later in the draft. The Giants met with him. He should be the target. Not Watson, Mahomes, Kizer, Webb, Trubisky, Peterman, Evans, Kayaa, or anyone else.
I hope the giants get mahomes  
32_Razor : 4/21/2017 1:07 pm : link
I think this guy is going to be a very good qb.
RE: The  
Milton : 4/21/2017 1:08 pm : link
In comment 13437369 AcidTest said:
Quote:
lack of ball velocity for Watson is particularly problematic since he'll be throwing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands late in the season. Watson looks like a better, more mobile version of Danny Kanell. Great kid, but pass.

Mahomes is the classic "high ceiling," "low floor" player. Terrible mechanics and footwork. Great arm, but Kyle Boller once threw the ball through the goalposts from the 50 yard line on his knees. He was drafted in the first round. Couldn't play.
With someone like Mahomes you need to trust the interview process. How coachable is? How mentally tough is he? What's your read on his maturity and leadership qualities?

Personally, I wasn't impressed by him in his youtube interview with Gruden. And this quote was a major turn-off....
Quote:
I feel like a lot of coaches like me, but especially coach O'Brien. I think my personality and how real I am, those are things beyond what I can do on the field that he likes. It seemed like the way I was answering questions, I think he knew that I knew what was going on. You can tell when coaches have a confidence in you.
He may turn out to be the next Brett Favre, but as someone earlier suggested, he may turn out to be the next Kyle Boller. And the Giants don't need to be the team to roll the dice on Schrodinger's Cat.
Sample size is virtually useless  
Torrag : 4/21/2017 1:11 pm : link
It supports nothing. You're better off watching his games and seeing if he can fit the ball into tight coverage windows or throw the deep out. Which he can.

It was determined by Cynthia Frelund, NFL Network's analytics specialist, that Watson had the least to work with in terms of receiver 'separation' among the elite cadre of this Draft's QB's. Curious how he was so statistically prolific in that scenario with such a lack of arm strength.

He also ranked 6th in the nation in adjusted completion percentage beyond 20 yards downfield. How do you account for that with his deficient arm talent?

I could go on but by now you get the point. I hope.
Sure, the Giants may draft a QB.  
Klaatu : 4/21/2017 1:13 pm : link
Then again, they may not. Let's see what Madam Marie says:

Watson has a larger problem..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/21/2017 1:14 pm : link
he's really poor at reading defenses. Combine that with a weak arm, and you have a terrible prospect. You are looking at a QB with 32 career INT's, several that were a result of just bad decision making.
I get your point  
UConn4523 : 4/21/2017 1:16 pm : link
but I can easily tell you he won't be playing in the NCAA anymore, won't have clean pockets like he used to, is going to have his blind side tested like never before, and will have much better DB's trying to pick him off.

I'm not saying i'm right and your wrong at all. I could absolutely be wrong. But to dismiss his ball velocity so casually seems pretty careless from a talent evaluation standpoint.

The rest of his game is everything I'd want in our next QB, but this is a pretty glaring drawback.
'Watson has a larger problem'...  
Torrag : 4/21/2017 1:16 pm : link
This is a really shallow and poorly researched or defended opinion.
RE: RE: We'll take a project QB  
jpennyva : 4/21/2017 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13437335 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13437331 HoustonGiant said:


Quote:


Day 3



Wouldn't you rather wait a year, see what happens with Geno, then draft a QB next year in a QB rich draft? I would wait.


+1

That is exactly what I was thinking. It feels like they're rushing it.
This is smoke...  
Giant John : 4/21/2017 1:21 pm : link
He is doing the Giants a favor.
RE: RE: The  
Jim in Forest Hills : 4/21/2017 1:24 pm : link
In comment 13437383 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13437369 AcidTest said:


Quote:


lack of ball velocity for Watson is particularly problematic since he'll be throwing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands late in the season. Watson looks like a better, more mobile version of Danny Kanell. Great kid, but pass.

Mahomes is the classic "high ceiling," "low floor" player. Terrible mechanics and footwork. Great arm, but Kyle Boller once threw the ball through the goalposts from the 50 yard line on his knees. He was drafted in the first round. Couldn't play.

With someone like Mahomes you need to trust the interview process. How coachable is? How mentally tough is he? What's your read on his maturity and leadership qualities?

Personally, I wasn't impressed by him in his youtube interview with Gruden. And this quote was a major turn-off....

Quote:


I feel like a lot of coaches like me, but especially coach O'Brien. I think my personality and how real I am, those are things beyond what I can do on the field that he likes. It seemed like the way I was answering questions, I think he knew that I knew what was going on. You can tell when coaches have a confidence in you.

He may turn out to be the next Brett Favre, but as someone earlier suggested, he may turn out to be the next Kyle Boller. And the Giants don't need to be the team to roll the dice on Schrodinger's Cat.


I'm no way advocating drafting a QB at all this year, but reading scouts notes about Mahomes is that his head is in the right place. He's like Eli in that he's a 1st in/last out kind of work ethic. If true, makes sense that the Giants would be interested. A kid with that arm talent that works that hard would be hard to pass up.
In other words  
allstarjim : 4/21/2017 1:25 pm : link
Hey Houston and KC, might want to trade with us or ahead of us to get your guy, otherwise he may not be there for you, and push the talent that we want down to us at 23.
It isn't very shallow...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/21/2017 1:25 pm : link
I live in ACC country and opposing DC's were successful in baiting him to throw picks. When basic deficiencies are exposed in college, they often manifest themselves much worse in the NFL.

Basically, in most drafts he is a mid-round pick and several scouts have him as a 3rd round pick or lower.

Most QB's have weaknesses coming into the NFL, but Watson's are more fundamentally difficult to correct than others. Is he going to throw the ball harder? Is he going to read defense well all of a sudden? Is he going to not get fooled by a CB feinting playing zone?

I've heard him compared to Dak because of Prescott's success as a rookie, yet even there the comparison is flawed when it comes to INT's and accuracy:

Quote:
In this draft analyst's opinion, I would grade Watson as a third-round pick for the 2017 NFL Draft. Watson was off with his accuracy for much of 2016, displaying poor ball placement, especially when going downfield. He missed a lot of potential touchdowns as a result. Watson has a lot of room for improvement with his field vision, ball placement, and accuracy. There were instances where he flashed accuracy, but he had too many missed and poorly placed throws. Watson was better down the stretch in 2016, but he still has room for improvement in his accuracy for the NFL.

Watson has some strengths for the NFL that cause many to compare him to Dak Prescott. Like Prescott, Watson has great intangibles as a hard worker with good character off the field and leadership in the locker room. They both bring toughness and mobility to the table. When plays break down, they can use his athleticism to pick up yards on the ground and also can avoid sacks.

Where the comparison breaks down is in terms of accuracy and ball security. Prescott was much more accurate in college and threw far less interceptions. Prescott threw only five interceptions as a senior with 11 as a junior. Thus, Watson threw more interceptions (17) in 2016 than Prescott did in his final two years combined.

There are a lot of growth issues that Watson will need development for in the NFL - aside from his passing skills. Watson is also going to need to learn how to work under center, call plays in a huddle, and develop his footwork to make drops from being under center. His college offense has a lot of quick throws, screens, and designed runs that inflated his numbers but don't translate to the NFL. Some NFL sources believe that Watson is going to need his pro offense to be catered to him and that he could have issues fitting a NFL system.

In speaking with sources from teams around the NFL, their grades on Watson didn't match the media hype that he has received. I surveyed many teams to see where their initial draft grades were for Watson. Two playoff teams told me they had third-round grades on Watson. One said it was on the low end as a third- to fourth-rounder. Another playoff team told Walt that they had a third-round grade on Watson. Two other teams said they had second-round grades on Watson. All that being said, teams believe that Watson could be a late first-round quarterback, similar to Teddy Bridgewater, because of the dire need at the position across the NFL. A team could move back into the first round for Watson like Bridgewater. A general manager of an AFC team said that in the draft meetings in April, Watson will benefit from the 'Dak Prescott effect' and rise. Thus, it wouldn't surprise anyone if Watson is taken in the middle of the first round during the 2017 NFL Draft.
Haven't followed projections on QBs  
Jimmy Googs : 4/21/2017 1:27 pm : link
Is Mahomes most likely a Rd 1 pick or could he slide to Rd 2?
I don't think arm strength will be an issue for Watson ...  
Beer Man : 4/21/2017 1:32 pm : link
He has some issue with his mechanics that sometimes cause his throws to dip, but early in the national championship game he heaved a ball that easily carried 65 to 70 yards in the air (although he did overthrow the receiver)
RE: Watson has a larger problem..  
David in LA : 4/21/2017 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13437391 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
he's really poor at reading defenses. Combine that with a weak arm, and you have a terrible prospect. You are looking at a QB with 32 career INT's, several that were a result of just bad decision making.


How do you know he's "really poor" at reading defenses? He has a lot of picks, but conversely, he has a lot of TD's. Had a 2.5:1 TD:INT ratio last year. The design of the offense kind of limits his reads, but you can pretty much say that about a lot of QB's coming out.
Deshaun threw almost 600 passes last year  
David in LA : 4/21/2017 1:40 pm : link
Dak threw more than 100 less passes his senior year. Horrible comp. One was asked to do a LOT more than the other.
RE: RE: RE: The  
Milton : 4/21/2017 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13437415 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:

I'm no way advocating drafting a QB at all this year, but reading scouts notes about Mahomes is that his head is in the right place. He's like Eli in that he's a 1st in/last out kind of work ethic. If true, makes sense that the Giants would be interested. A kid with that arm talent that works that hard would be hard to pass up.
It's about more than just hard work, it's about maturity, leadership, poise, mental toughness, intelligence, coachability, etc. I wasn't impressed by him in his interview with Gruden (and bragging about how "real" he is was a turn-off), but it's a very small sample. The team of scouts, coaches, and personnel execs on the Giants are operating on much better info than I, so I'll trust their judgment.
RE: Watson has a larger problem..  
Big Blue '56 : 4/21/2017 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13437391 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
he's really poor at reading defenses. Combine that with a weak arm, and you have a terrible prospect. You are looking at a QB with 32 career INT's, several that were a result of just bad decision making.


32 INTs..Great, a penchant just like our mediocre QB..Perfect..All In..
Doubtful;  
TMS : 4/21/2017 2:00 pm : link
till ELI starts to show wear and tear on the field or in his own words. He thinks he is good for 4/5 more years barring serious injury. Think management will give him the benefit of the doubt. Using a high pick on a QB (with potential) to sit on the beach and develop would be dumb move now. MO.
Well..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/21/2017 2:03 pm : link
Quote:
How do you know he's "really poor" at reading defenses?


Considering that opposing DC's have discussed baiting him into picks, the fact he's had 32 picks, and that several scouts have surmised this, it is at least out there.

Are there opposing positions that claim reading defenses is a strength?
I was thinking about this on the drive into work  
antdog24 : 4/21/2017 2:16 pm : link
it feels to me like they are going to trade up and get Mahomes... I think they really like this kid and they figure Eli has about 3 years left. Perfect time to draft a QB if he's the one they want and let him sit behind Eli for 2 or 3 years.
RE: I was thinking about this on the drive into work  
Devon : 4/21/2017 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13437533 antdog24 said:
Quote:
it feels to me like they are going to trade up and get Mahomes... I think they really like this kid and they figure Eli has about 3 years left. Perfect time to draft a QB if he's the one they want and let him sit behind Eli for 2 or 3 years.


Trading up in the first round for a player that you don't intend to play for 2 or 3 years while also paying another QB huge money is completely idiotic.
Conversely, he had 76 TD's to those 32 picks  
David in LA : 4/21/2017 2:22 pm : link
I know he's been baited by FSU twice, and Watson also plays against top notch competition. Not saying there aren't issues there, but how many QB's leave college understanding how to go through progressions when there's so many offenses that limit your reads?
its a poor QB draft  
msh : 4/21/2017 2:38 pm : link
would prefer they give eli the protection and more weapons to give him another tilt at winning it all over the least terrible of a bad QB class

i would like an OL and TE with the first 2 picks right now im leaning towards cam robinson and adam shaheen or njoku and holden maybe if njoku makes it to 23
watson and trubisky  
hitdog42 : 4/21/2017 2:39 pm : link
are well respected
Plus, I think it's hyperbolic to claim that Watson is  
David in LA : 4/21/2017 2:40 pm : link
a "TERRIBLE" prospect. That's laying it on a little thick.
Right now,  
Doomster : 4/21/2017 2:41 pm : link
the Giants are geared to win this coming season

So the first three picks will be used for potential starters, or players that will get significant playing time, liker a TE, RB, or DB......

After the third round, I doubt you can even find another Nassib....
RE: watson and trubisky  
Kevin in Annapolis : 4/21/2017 2:43 pm : link
In comment 13437585 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
are well respected


Thanks for passing along the info
Giants would have to suck  
fkap : 4/21/2017 2:50 pm : link
and/or pays a king's ransom to move up to top 5 next year. The reality is most likely that they are picking around the same spot this year as they will be next year. maybe 5 or so picks worse if they're mediocre. Value at 23 is more or less the same every year. It really doesn't matter if there is or isn't a bunch of QB's going before that. so what if there is no Payton or Eli Manning, or Ryan Leaf, or Luck, or (name the top rated QB of most years). You're not getting one of them if you're picking middling.

there may be more value in a 'deep' class of DL or CB, or TE, but that doesn't diminish the quality of a QB or OL available at 23. If a QB is worthy of the pick, pick him. Doesn't matter that there's no Eli in this draft class, but there might be next year. In all likelihood, we're not getting an Eli next year in the range we're hopefully picking.
Makes sense to get a kid onto the driving range...  
Racer : 4/21/2017 3:04 pm : link
..with Eli on the back 9.
Maybe Watson sandbagged  
CT Charlie : 4/21/2017 3:31 pm : link
so he'll get picked by the Pats.
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