I had mentioned in a different thread, going into the draft, we all seem to have a sense for the needs on the Giants and what is the most obvious target, particularly in the early rounds. And then we go through the combine, the rumors, mock drafts, etc you go around and around. But in final moments, that's when the clarity comes through and you go back to your original thoughts.
The Giants needs are mainly on OL and TE. This is a deep TE draft, so they can get one in the 2nd or 3rd round. That brings us back to OL. And if there is one thing the Giants like, it's versatility on the OL. So they would want a guy who can play guard or tackle and can step right in and play.
But the Giants always look at their first couple of rounds to not only fill a need this year, but they look at the cap and future years. That leads us to Justin Pugh. Pugh will earn over $8 million this year, the 6th highest paid guard. He will be a free agent next year and the market for guards exploded this past year. Zeitler, Leary, Warford, and Lang all got over $28 million. Pugh is going to get in that range next year. Is he worth it considering they will need to get ready to pay Odell? So what is the safest move? Draft someone now to soften the blow, who can play this year and will be ready to slot right in next year if Pugh leaves.
So who is the most obvious choice? To me, run Forrest run. Forrest Lamp.
OL will be make/break for a 2017 SB run - everything else is in place.
OL will be make/break for a 2017 SB run - everything else is in place.
* I'd pay to keep Pugh. he is 1 of the best guards in the game ... wish he was locked up long term already.
I'm fine with BPA though, and hope it's OL, TE or LB. The latter two have been subpar for years, just like the OL.
+1
Dude is media savvy, a good teammate, our best OL, and a a known quantity.
He's the perfect re-sign.
I think Richburg is going to show up big time this year, after his talk in the media preceded a relatively mediocre year last year for him. Those two guys are priority re-signs.
Kennard needs to prove he's got a large enough niche with us this year. He's the biggest question mark for a re-sign imo.
Lamp will be the pick unless he's gone. Sucks b/c the Giants need playmakers. They need Oline badly. It will tarnish this draft.
This
I'd like to see Pugh kept as well. Either way, my hope is we draft Lamp.
That is bad enough but when you spend high draft picks on players and they don't work out that hurts even more.
To me, this is a combination of evaluation and coaching. It needs to be fixed. We have had such poor success overall that most fans feel that we have to take an OL in the first because the odds are better they will work out.
Pugh has been solid but the injuries really hurt. Same goes for Richburg. Flowers has not shown any improvement. I am tired of the age thing getting brought up. He needs to show more than improvement at this moment in time. It is sink or swim for him. Even if all the pieces fall correctly with them we still have the right side of the OL to worry about.
OL is a legit possibility early but I expect it later in the draft.
At this point we need to hope that this line can just be not horrible. If we get that then we can have a successful year.
He can play either guard, is Pugh insurance, and could even play Right tackle. He is essentially a Pugh clone.
He's smart and will leverage his draft status and the fact that he is the "cream of the crap" of the Giants OL. And he'll point to the market and target a similar payday.
Taking all of that into consideration, we would be pissed if Reese signed an oft-injured, middling talent to a market rate contract.
The Giants will have questions with Pugh and Fluker both free agents next year. So the best move is to get someone who can play guard or tackle. With Jerry in place, he is at least depth. Lamp would afford them the option to play either spot, depending if one (or both) leaves.
We can blow it up and not re-sign either. But, I don't see why you'd gut the group by taking away our two best guys just because the market doesn't sit right with you.
I am willing to bet quite alot that we are not going to go OL in the first. If we get an OL in the second it would make sense. We are going for a playmaker/ticket seller in the first. Davis, Njoku, Cook, McCaffrey or even Engram would make a lot of sense to me.
If we surprise it will be a CB like King imo. This team is so close.
However, it appears they are down on all the OL other than Bolles. I'm certain they like Lamp, just not at 23.
He's smart and will leverage his draft status and the fact that he is the "cream of the crap" of the Giants OL. And he'll point to the market and target a similar payday.
Taking all of that into consideration, we would be pissed if Reese signed an oft-injured, middling talent to a market rate contract.
Well, good thought, except he probably does get the Pro Bowl if not for the injury last year. He's a very good guard with tackle ability.
He will get as many bucks as any guard got this year.
The thought process behind it is that you can still get guys in the middle rounds that might have gone higher in other years. There is some really talented guys expected to go on day 2. TE also isn't a make or break position on this team where as the offensive line is essential IMO. Of course, everyone would prefer OJ Howard to Adam Shaheen but if my choices are Lamp and Shaheen or Howard and Joe Shmoe project offensive lineman... I know which one I'd rather have.
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Is people say this is a deep TE draft. So be it, but why would you want to wait until the 3rd to pick up a TE when you can get a stud in round 1. I just don't understand the logic there. I am not saying it is wrong by any means just that I don't follow it. I am not even saying that any TE is necessarily good because the extent of my college football/prospect knowledge is from reading the people I have liked on here for many years. It just doesn't make sense to me that if TE #2 is very good and TE #5 is decent why would you not for #2? On top of that all I hear and read is that all these Olinemen stink so why bother forcing a first round pick on one. Again I am only looking for the thought process behind it.
The thought process behind it is that you can still get guys in the middle rounds that might have gone higher in other years. There is some really talented guys expected to go on day 2. TE also isn't a make or break position on this team where as the offensive line is essential IMO. Of course, everyone would prefer OJ Howard to Adam Shaheen but if my choices are Lamp and Shaheen or Howard and Joe Shmoe project offensive lineman... I know which one I'd rather have.
While I tend to agree with you, I think TE is a little diff regarding waiting vs taking a player in the first. Howard is completely clean as a prospect, has extraordinary measurables and has the production. He's a cant miss TE for the most part. There is literally not another player like him at his position in the draft. He is as close to plug n play as you get in this draft. Then the next few are still very very athletic in Engram, Njoku, Everett and Hodges. When you get to guys like Shaheen (whom I love in 2) and Kittle and Leggett, they are not viewed as players that can be game breakers. Njoku and Engram can because of their measurables. The last group cant.
So, in summation, you draft TEs higher in a draft rich at that position than say an OL or corner or LB because its rare when players have exceptional athleticism at such rare size and you are drafting a potential superstar at their position.
Clearly most people here do not run a business. The thought process is scary IMO
However, you cannot let that affect your evaluation of what he is worth. He is a B+/A- guard who has yet to prove he can stay healthy.
So if it is up to me, no way do i pay this guy 8 million a year with big guaranteed salary unless he plays all 16 games at a high level next year. Even then, I would think long and hard about it.
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blue tinted glasses. If he played for another team and hit FA, no one would be eager to sign a player that is a former mid 1st round pick that has never sniffed a pro-bowl. Never named as a back-up to the pro-bowl. And never has been named a replacement for a back-up to the pro-bowl. I could keep going, but the reality is that he isn't that good. Sure, he is the best OL out of this group of misfits. On top of that is outside of his rookie season, he doesn't know what it is like to play 16 games.
He's smart and will leverage his draft status and the fact that he is the "cream of the crap" of the Giants OL. And he'll point to the market and target a similar payday.
Taking all of that into consideration, we would be pissed if Reese signed an oft-injured, middling talent to a market rate contract.
Well, good thought, except he probably does get the Pro Bowl if not for the injury last year. He's a very good guard with tackle ability.
He will get as many bucks as any guard got this year.
I have no doubt that he'll get the big bucks. I just hope we aren't the one giving it to them. Any crappy agent should be able to slot Pugh into the market rate that was established this past year. The floor is the 6th round pick from KC who got $8mil/yr and the ceiling set by Zeitler.
I love the argument that he would "probably" be a pro-bowler if not for an injury. He was plenty healthy when replacements were named. If he was so good, how is it possible that he couldn't garner the recognition to be named a replacement for a replacement for a replacement for a pro-bowler?
And none ...none ...none of us have any idea if he is a good teammate or a good guy or succeeds at a high percentage of his assignments per play. For all we know he might be a contentious uncoachable guy who is rarely right but never uncertain. For all we know his bad attitude might badly influence everyone else on the OL.
We have no idea. Maybe he is the foundation of all good things. Maybe replacing him is 2+2 = 5.
I agree that he seems less of a problem than either OT position has been for us
robbieballs2003 : 4/26/2017 9:27 pm : link : reply
But we have spend valuable resources on it. It amazes me that our OL is this poor with the resources we have spent on it. Every team ... EVERY TEAM gets late round draft picks or UDFA to work out on the OL. We haven't in a long time unless you count Hart has one of the guys. Before Hart? Ugh.
The Giants front office has a terrible track record for finding offensive linemen later in the draft. Not sure why that is, but I am amazed that people have not lost their jobs because of this. The mediocrity on the OL has been in place for years. We need to get back to being able to find a Rich Seubert once in a while.
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I know people say we ignore the OL
robbieballs2003 : 4/26/2017 9:27 pm : link : reply
But we have spend valuable resources on it. It amazes me that our OL is this poor with the resources we have spent on it. Every team ... EVERY TEAM gets late round draft picks or UDFA to work out on the OL. We haven't in a long time unless you count Hart has one of the guys. Before Hart? Ugh.
The Giants front office has a terrible track record for finding offensive linemen later in the draft. Not sure why that is, but I am amazed that people have not lost their jobs because of this. The mediocrity on the OL has been in place for years. We need to get back to being able to find a Rich Seubert once in a while.
This inability to identify and coach up later round talent is the crux of my lack of enthusiasm for the later round OL talent that Klaatu alludes to. If our coaching staff is unable to coach up 1st and 2nd round talents on the roster, there is no confidence that they will be able to do so for later round talent. If we don't secure top talent (1st/2nd round), then we will likely be forced to repeat the process next year, and the year after that...
Giants would be best served to come out of this draft with 2 lineman for certain, a Tackle and a Guard.
But it's not just Pugh that concerns me. We have little or no quality depth at OG, and that needs to be addressed.
I would argue, though, that when he's been healthy, 2nd round pick Weston Richburg has been one of the best Centers in the league, and he definitely deserves to be re-signed when the time comes.
Both Richburg and Pugh are apt to be difficult, or impossible re-signs, upgrading Jerry would be good, and there is always the chance, although I have hope for Flowers, he becomes the LT necessary to keep the passing offense functional.
The dooms-day scenario, at least for the O-line, is if we are lucky enough to be able to jump on some playmakers in the early rounds then those picks will go elsewhere instead for O-line resources.
That leaves us only really some type of post-draft trade with the other teams in the league to shore up the O-line...not likely.
Maybe we trade OBJ for 3 new picks?
And, of course, I'd sign as many "big ugly" UDFAs as possible, with the hope of finding the next Rich Seubert or Ronald Leary.
That is the problem with the Group Think. You mentioned that he can play OT, supposedly. That is all he has ever done. 4 years of locking down the blind side. All the pundits point to his inch and half shorter arms, and right away kick him in as a OG. He might very well project to be a dominant OG, but he certainly has the talent and proven reps to handle the most difficult spot on the OL. This projected versatility is his #1 attribute. He is by definition the BPA when it comes to OL.
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If so, then since the Giants were supposedly enamored with him and might have taken him if OBJ wasn't there, I would presume, a G (I know he can play OT, supposedly) such as Lamp could easily be our 23?
That is the problem with the Group Think. You mentioned that he can play OT, supposedly. That is all he has ever done. 4 years of locking down the blind side. All the pundits point to his inch and half shorter arms, and right away kick him in as a OG. He might very well project to be a dominant OG, but he certainly has the talent and proven reps to handle the most difficult spot on the OL. This projected versatility is his #1 attribute. He is by definition the BPA when it comes to OL.
Thanks..By 'supposedly' I meant or should have said, in the pros..Is he projected more as a G or OT in the pros, even if he's versatile enough for either?
Sure he could, if he's still on the board when the Giants are up.
There have been times when the Giants went with the OL in the 1st round instead of the playmaker - 2013 and 2015, for example - and times when they've done the opposite - 2016 and 2014. So, it's anybody's guess what they'll do tonight. Whatever they do, though, I just hope it's the right move.
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In comment 13444406 Big Blue '56 said:
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If so, then since the Giants were supposedly enamored with him and might have taken him if OBJ wasn't there, I would presume, a G (I know he can play OT, supposedly) such as Lamp could easily be our 23?
That is the problem with the Group Think. You mentioned that he can play OT, supposedly. That is all he has ever done. 4 years of locking down the blind side. All the pundits point to his inch and half shorter arms, and right away kick him in as a OG. He might very well project to be a dominant OG, but he certainly has the talent and proven reps to handle the most difficult spot on the OL. This projected versatility is his #1 attribute. He is by definition the BPA when it comes to OL.
Thanks..By 'supposedly' I meant or should have said, in the pros..Is he projected more as a G or OT in the pros, even if he's versatile enough for either?
The majority opinion is that he'll shift inside to OG. But personally, he has all the tools to play OT and has proven it over 4 years of doing so. Reading Lamp's scouting report by Dave Te, he addresses the shorter arm length as not being a problem.
He's going to command a big pay day. It's the Giants way to reward their own. But personally, I'd move on from players who can't stay on the field. Its generally not a good recipe for success.
If there's a guard that will do most of what Pugh does, and especially if he does all, or more of what Pugh does, run to the podium to make the selection and get a guy who can do the job at a minimal salary. Salaries do matter in this cap era.
the problem is that we've sucked at picking cost controlled average guys to replace expensive average guys, so we're used to this mentality of pay whatever it takes.
re-signing draft picks is not as important as getting good value out of players. Pugh is NOT some all world, always healthy guard. You only pay him whatever it takes IF you don't have a replacement/alternative. IF you can draft a replacement, do so.